Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!
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Korlash Krap Logick
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[Insert exaggerated and outstandingly hilarious confirmatory message that inspires trust and understanding with the other players here]It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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;_; Thats not very nice...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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I don't think "fair" is an issue at this stage of the game...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Ouch... my awesomeness backfires on me! T_T Curse you 1/3 invisible man! Curse you!It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
Star Trek Voyager Mafia! Ends in a Starfleet victory! Pomp, Circumstance, and Bloodwine for all!-
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Um... I believe Mexal is voting me... not the other way around...
Apologies, FixedIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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...
I'll have you know this smile is %100 genuine authentic imitation thank you very much!It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
Star Trek Voyager Mafia! Ends in a Starfleet victory! Pomp, Circumstance, and Bloodwine for all!-
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Yeah I wouldn't be too worried about a small wagon on page two... they will die off soon... I hope... But if it gets to around.. 5... then I would be worried...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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=DIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Am I missing something? Why do we NEED another vote on a random bandwagon? That just seems to me bad playing. I mean sure it puts more pressure on those with the votes but it's still all in the random stage. I don't see how another vote on those is helpful. Then again I could be missing the big picture seeing as how it's me with the votes...
I would think we would want more input and more spread out votes. Narrowing our focus on two people seems a little, I don't know, counter productive.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Defensive? You call that defensive? I was merely trying to ask why you thought we were in need of a fourth vote. I agree that no one is in danger of anything ATM. (We would have to be a pretty stupid town to lynch someone this fast ><) So even four votes didn't seem like it would cause any significant pressure.
And as for the strongest reaction so far, I agree... I mean it sure was the strongest alright. With so many examples I can list here on page 3 of strong reactions mine definitely tops the chart! [/sarcasm]
Also I think it is "damn near impossible to legitimately justify a vote" on anyone at this point... Random and even "pressure" do no justify anything, even if it dose get the game moving. (Not saying I don't agree with random/pressure votes, just saying they are not true, honest, legitimate votes. In fact, a smart mafia would know a "pressure" vote is worthless unless they overreact so I never even see these are really helpful.)
So making sure not to limit the town's questionnaire to a singular person, what about my last post made you think I was being defensive, or was in any fear you would vote for me?It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Wow... First time anyone has called methat!
And I am all for this direction of game play. It's fine really, I just wanted to know why it was "Needed" and not just "One way to go." made me think that was the only option they saw and I didn't understand why.
So... Fire away, I promise I will tell the truth!
"No I did not have sexual relations with that woman! I wanted too..."It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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@ jerubbaal: i don't play black a lot either but it is a pretty good card, I hear some people call it a game winner. I just like it... Don't know why...
still @ Jerubbaal: Post 54 was not so much defensive as much as a response to Jitsu's question:
Your basically putting me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario here. If I don't answer the questions I look scummy, yet if I do you call it defensive and use that against me. I just find that a little odd.Jitsu wrote:Why so defensive?
And I wouldn't call it nervousness... Maybe a different perspective or view point Mixed with a tiny bit of inexperience/unsureness.
@ Miztef: I already told you I don't consider any votes right now worth being under pressure for. You would get a lot more by asking me stuff/ talking to me like Jitsu and jerubbaal are.
Also... I wouldn't say "First candidates for lynch" this early. Sounds to me like your tying to push for a short day. I would probably say something like "First candidates for suspicion" Or "Most likely scum" seeing as how we all agree there is no real threat of a lynch right now and comments like that seem to be brought up later against you. Just a heads up for future reference.
and lastly @ Jitsu: I like how your playing. Active, scum hunting, not just throwing out votes. While I may not totally fully agree with your style, I am looking forward to a pretty good game.
As for a fourth vote. It won't change anything alone. As you see Miztef voted without asking me anything, or even really pointing anything out. So his vote (To me) looks just as random as the rest, so I wouldn't react to it. However, the discussion going on right now is enough to make me give input. A much better way to gain info on people then semi-meaningless votes.
And, not to sound too "defensive" here, but can you explain how my reaction was what you expected? I mean, all I wanted to know was why you believe a fourth vote was necessary, and instead of just answering you accused me of being defensive. To me, it seems like you saw me as a possible candidate to throw suspicion on and took what I said out of context. I agree I reacted to your post with my thoughts on it, but it was not because you talked about a putting a fourth vote on. It was because two people each agreed that was a good plan and I did not understand why.
And perhaps I am misunderstanding you but are you trying to say that because my post was large (in length) you automatically assumed I was under pressure and defending myself? That just seems a little... biased... Perhaps thats not the right word...
and I will tackle both of your last comments together.
Jitsu wrote:Sure, I could vote for someone that doesn't have many votes on them yet, but I'm not going to learn anything at this point by putting a vote on Jayalay or Anata, for example. Though, if people lurk a few more days, I wouldn't mind putting a vote on a lurker to encourage them to talk. I'd rather not do that on the weekend though, when people are less active.
For starters take what just happened. You talked, and I answered. We just committed active discussion! We have each gained info on the other, without a vote needed. Now take Miztef's vote. I pretty much said nothing in response to it. Because he did not give me any specific reasons that I could explain/counter. So we, the town, have gained nothing out of it and the maifa have gained a player with a slightly higher bandwagon. (This is not about me here. This is for later on, anyone can attack the people on me saying there was no reason for a vote/wagon and use it against them. So in theory, 5 townies can be in danger of having scum opportunities their deaths/reason to be lynched.)Jitsu wrote:Really? I'd like to know what you've got in mind.
So to answer your question, asking questions and pointing out mistakes/unknowns are much better at generating discussion then a random/pressure vote this early. But it does need the person (In his case me) to be honest about why I said something or what I said.
Other things could include flaming someone. This would spark a comeback, active discussion, or violent outburst that might give something away. In general this should be avoided at all costs as it makes games annoying/hard to read and overall turns active discussion into biased attacks with no real backing.
using info from other games someone is playing in could also be a discussion starter. The sentence "Hey Blank! I'm in game XXX with you and you have been posting there non-stop! Yet you are lurking here! What the hell man?" Could be used to get someone to talk. Again this should be avoided as each game has its own limits and boundaries to it. Just because someone did something somewhere else does not mean they will play the same here. this is one of those things that could cause unnecessary pressure/reasonable doubt on someone that could spiral into an attack/lynch that had no real backing to begin with.
In short, I agree that a vote or talk is best. Those are just a few things I could think of that would start the game moving a little. (Not saying I wold do them. I'm not really! Don't hold that against me here! ^^')
Also my take on the inactives... It could be just that they are not able to post as much as we can during the weekends. So I agree we should give them some time before we turn our attention to them. Then again, With a townie in the current spotlight, some people(mainly mafia) would be inclined to let us attack each other (Provided we are both town here) instead of jumping in and putting their selves out there. Just an idea to take and ruminate on here. I actually don't mind being the one with the votes on me as I will get to express my ideas/feelings early and will hopefully be able to help find the actual scum.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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I do like that idea... If all the town claim then it wont matter who gets NKed because we would know the mafia. But the downside is the claim "Vanilla towny" kills this plan off... every mafia would claim it, the vanilla townies would claim it, and some power roles would claim it... so... yeah I don't think it will ever be in play, unless theres a fully power role game ever done.
As for Miztef's comment on a vote, I have said numerous times I do not think a random/pressure vote helps out that much. Especially when you can turn it around as an OMGUS vote. Plus your not really scummy with a fourth vote, so I see no reason to add one on you. And no offense.. but only 3 people have posted sense you voted me, so the odds were against you gaining a vote.
As for my vote or talk thing it was merely for Jitsu's question. Even though there are a million(Exaggeration) things we can do, we still shouldn't do them. I just wanted to make that clear in case anyone tried to hold my flaming/other games info against me later. And while it may seem odd to you (Because you already knew it) to a player who didn't know it might have taken my above speech to say flaming or other game info would help and thus do it. I did not want this so thats why I concluded the way I did.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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After rereading that post I think I may have said something a bit funny.
This of course contradicts a few things I have said in the past at first glance so I want to clear up my feelings right now before you guys get it in your head I'm contradicting myself.Korlash wrote: I have said numerous times I do not think a random/pressure vote helps out that much.
My views on random/early pressure votes:To a good player, they will not help out too much. As long as a player knows they are in no danger they should not over react. So I try to avoid making them myself.
Proside of random/early pressure votes:They can help in starting active discussion.(Not always about the voted, sometimes about the voter.) So one or two votes may hep make a person talk, others may require a few more, as you see I only needed 3 to fully begin talking.
So while I agree they can be helpful I am against making them... I know it's hard to understand that but I feel that the other 11 players will make enough that I don't have to, while I am confident I am fully able to create discussion through just that, discussion. No iffy votes to use against me later, no hard feelings right off the bat.
Mostly it's because I feel you get more info from the voter then you do from a smart voted...
Sorry about the double post, I am usually pretty good at previewing my stuff carefully...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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to be fair he at first didn;t even say it... and when he did he admited it was a bad idea...
FoS: Mexalfor ignoring important details...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Well I admit i have not gained that explanation flair some people seem to have a natural knack for. My biggest problem has always been having some great idea and then explaining it in a way that makes me look stupid...
*sigh*
I am working on it...
Now I'll try to make it crystal clear here:
I am not against people putting up pressure votes, I just don't see them as a sure fire way to weed out scum. If someone understands that the votes put on right now will NOT lead to him being lynched any time soon, that player should not feel any pressure. The same goes for a totally random vote. so I would rather you guys ask me questions/ state specific examples you would like me to talk about instead of just going "Hes suspicious, Vote: Korlash, that might make him crack!" because I realize there is no reason to even think about a lynch ATM.
And I kinda think its reaching to insinuate that I was trying to make it look like my incite. I personally thought it an interesting idea, but at the same time wanted to show him I was not as dumb as Mexal and fully understood where he was coming from.
As for that last quote the first paragraph was directed at Miztef for the most part explaining why I did not vote him. And the second part was for his sarcastic comment about how I "stated the obvious" thing. I don't see an easy way to clear it up without rewriting it for the most part... It mainly says "I said the last part in case some players did not completely understand where I stood on the matter."
I find it odd the way you guys keep coming back at me with "You seem to be stating the obvious/ just saying what others have" as if that is actually a bad thing to do. I personally find it helpful to let people know when you agree with them and understand what they meant. Because then when people like Mexal come in and DON'T agree with you, you at least know that you got through to someone and don't make an honest mistake over it.
Also can you give me examples of "talking in circles?" I hate when people say something vague like that and I'm stuck here unable to clear it up.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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The problem with that is if we let two days go by there is a chance of... 6 townies dead. Leaving us at a probable 3-3 situation which is game over. Overall I do not see the term "mass claim" coming into effect. I can see a cop or tracker claim day 2 followed up by doc protection that night, but I don't see the point in a mass claim ever unless we only have 1 mafia left to deal with. Doing it too early could result in a claimed cop v. claimed cop situation resulting in either real cop being lynched or Nked. and a claim to late results in no more info then we would already have. Overall I am fully against any claim unless your life depends on it.
Or thats my opinion. As the game progresses and the situation turns one way or the other I may be inclined to change my mind. But I doubt it.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Well if people would stop trying to use false information against me...
Yeah I tend to just type everything in my head at once and try and sort it out later... I guess I will try to limit it to as little as possible but still get my point across...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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I want to start with the quote, then answer a few things, then a little tid bit of stuff, then a good bye... table of contents... just so you know... Always nice... ok...
First off I am sorry for calling you dumb. I admit it was unneeded and uncalled for. I had a bit of pent up rage from another game and that is never good. Ok that out of the way, if i have been "talking about how you(i) dislike pressure votes" wouldn't that make sense then that I jump at people who do put pressure votes on? It seems to me like your confusing logic here...Mexal wrote:Not as dumb as Mexal? Are you serious? I skimmed through the thread in 5 minutes and posted against an idea. You've spent the last 3 pages talking about how you dislike pressure votes since it's not a 100% exact way to find scum yet you criticize me for voting someone for pushing out an idea that clearly hurts the town? Tell me exactly how my reasoning above wasn't valid?
Also it's not that you voted him, it's that you just plain ignored half of his post and threw the second half out as an attack. I think taking things out of context is scummy.
Take the sentence "If I am mafia I would not vote you!" If you just take the "I am mafia" part and use it as an attack... Yeah... You see where I am going right? Granted, his statement is pretty different from the example sentence. But it is more or less the same concept.
Now to answer the Question: " Explain this" Well if people would stop trying to use false information against me... "
It was a tiny jokeish response to Jerubbaal's "Try not to ramble and make those ideas less clear than they are in your head. " notice the smiley in it.
@ jitsu: "If you had thought to mention this right away, you would have looked a lot less suspicious. "
If I had mentioned what? That it gave a lot of info for the town? I believe I did say that at some point.
Tid bits:
People keep mentioning over reacting, and Miztef did his thing on playing differently as scum and town. I am fully for and support the argument "If you are town you cannot be afraid to put yourself out there."
So I will always make myself a target by coming in hard and fast. In doing so I get info from others and they get info from me.
(Actually... I know I will jinx myself here.. but out of every game of mafia I have ever played... I have yet to actually be lynched! So i am kinda a 'man without fear' here. It helps us out a lot because of all the info we get, but it can be very dangerous to me if I am not careful.)
So you cannot be afraid to throw suspicion on yourself in order to get the info you want. If you are, you will lose a lot of opportunity to get that info and will make the game a little harder for the town in general.
@ Miztef: you say you voted me because I had the most votes on me (post 84) Yet... I believe curiouskarmadog also had three votes on him. So... Why me? I think you need to be a bit more specific. Unless I missed an unvote at some point.
@ oEJo : You know. You made me laugh at least twice... Thats hard to do. So... Keep it up =D
Now a good bye:
why do you have to be so active during the time I am working... Man... this game is going to keep me busy every day I get home isn't it? Oh well... Keep up the activity! I will check back in shortly!It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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You know that caught my eye too. But I chalked it up to just a bad use of wording/mistake. we have been talking a lot about wagons here. AndtechnicallyI believe you could call it a one vote wagon if it comes down to it.
And I can't remember if anyone had voted him before you... to tired to check ATM... Hopefully I can get another of you younger and fitter players to do it for me.. and bring me tea.. and a cookie... =DIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Wow I totally need to check before I post...Mexal wrote:
Have you even read a single thing I've said? I have said several times that I read everything and made my post anyway. I have said several times that disclaimers are meaningless. Why are you still pushing this?Korlash wrote: First off I am sorry for calling you dumb. I admit it was unneeded and uncalled for. I had a bit of pent up rage from another game and that is never good. Ok that out of the way, if i have been "talking about how you(i) dislike pressure votes" wouldn't that make sense then that I jump at people who do put pressure votes on? It seems to me like your confusing logic here...
Also it's not that you voted him, it's that you just plain ignored half of his post and threw the second half out as an attack. I think taking things out of context is scummy.
Take the sentence "If I am mafia I would not vote you!" If you just take the "I am mafia" part and use it as an attack... Yeah... You see where I am going right? Granted, his statement is pretty different from the example sentence. But it is more or less the same concept.
What exactly are you talking about in regards to pressure? I put a vote on someone for a perfectly valid reason. I did not go throw a vote on a player who had 3 votes on him to see him react. Therefore my pressure has absolutely nothing to do with what you spent your time arguing against. Someone has to put the first vote down. Someone has to exert that initial pressure. That has absolutely nothing to do with you argument about pressure votes therefore I wouldn't expect you to use that as a reason to justify your criticism of my vote. So no, it doesn't make sense.
Ok... First off I was in no way trying to push it, I was merely stating why I reacted as I did. I see now that I made a mistake by saying it was a pressure vote but thats what I thought it was.
So why are discalimers meaningless? I think in that situation they were perfectly logical. Someone asked him about it, so in order not to look bad, he answered. But admitted he knew it was wrong.
And as for your "perfectly valid reason" I personally think your reason is shitty and false. And if you did not expect me to use it as a reason to justify my criticism for your vote why did you even bring it up? I logically assumed because of your sentence that you were saying your vote was a pressure vote. My mistake there.
So can you answer me why you think an "initial pressure vote" is any different to me as any other "early pressure vote"? as far as I see it your trying to convincemepersonally that your vote does not follow my thinking of votes themselves. I find that a bit odd, but I suppose I would try to skirt my actions away from attacks other people have already done.
In short, I believe your reason for the vote is meaningless. "Disclaimers are meaningless" may make sense to you, but to take what someone said out of context and use it as an attack is not a good plan. I believe that if you feel a vote is good to put on someone you should not care what my feelings are on the matter. And I believe that the world is round, forever spinning with an infinite WIFOM games being played all over! Yeah.. deep I know...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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DAMNIT!I hate being ninjaed... I even checked that time...Mexal wrote:
What caught your eye?Korlash wrote:You know that caught my eye too. But I chalked it up to just a bad use of wording/mistake. we have been talking a lot about wagons here. AndtechnicallyI believe you could call it a one vote wagon if it comes down to it.
And I can't remember if anyone had voted him before you... to tired to check ATM... Hopefully I can get another of you younger and fitter players to do it for me.. and bring me tea.. and a cookie... =D
One voteisa wagon. But you cannot jump onto a wagon if one isn't started.
And no one voted for him before I voted hence why I posted what I posted. Seriously, if you're going to make a post to me, at least have some semblence of what you're talking about.
Ok that post was in response to post 112. you kinda put another post up after I had already begun mine so.. yeah...
I had no idea you were going to do a double post... I'm sorry... As for the "Jump on a bandwagon" thing... It could be confusion about how many votes he had on him at the time, a ploy to make it look like your an example for all the talk that just occurred, or a simple mistake because of that talk. If I am talking about bandwagons all day and then have to explain someone's actions. I might just say something about a wagon in there too. Be it accidentally or not...
Ok I just checked.. I was the last to post.. so If I get ninjed again I will lose it!It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Korlash Krap Logick
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Well i won't say no to gaining as much info out of you that I can! ^^ I personally love how fast this game is starting!
Ok:
see this:Mexal wrote:Who said you were pushing anything? I merely stated you reacted positively to the suggestion.
in short, you did.Mexal wrote:Have you even read a single thing I've said? I have said several times that I read everything and made my post anyway. I have said several times that disclaimers are meaningless.Why are you still pushing this?
Because he was asked, by another player (a possilbe towny) to explain his other ideas. When you are asked to do something and do not do it then you look a little scummy. So I find it hard to imagine why you keep missing this very important issue here.Mexal wrote:Why make the post in the first place?
He DID NOT ORIGINALLY SAY IT! Thus, because he did not say it he obviously did not think it was worth saying. But when asked he was forced to say it, so he added the disclaimer to reiterate that he did not support it. And I think you are reaching to assume that he was throwing out shit to see if it woudl stick because of that point right there.Mexal wrote:Why say there are things you can do that are efficient if you think those things are stupid? Hell, why even post that if you don't expect someone to question you on it? That's why disclaimers are pointless. You can easily suggest something with a disclaimer then when someone latches on to it and pushes it, you can follow it up. So even though you made a disclaimer, you can easily back away from the disclaimer since you're the one to post the idea in the first place. In other words, he's spitting out shit to see if it sticks even though it's a HORRIBLE idea for town. Get it yet?
Personally I don't think you are good at this game anyways... >.> <.<Mexal wrote:How is it false? Because I don't automatically believe when someone puts up disclaimers, my reasoning is then invalid? Hardly. If I believed everything everyone did then I wouldn't be very good at this game now would I?
Kidding... seriously... that was a joke... Don't get to mad over it... >.>
actually the fact that you don;t believe him is good. The fact that you are ignoring the fact he originally thought the idea bad enough not to say and only brought it up BECAUSE HE WAS ASKED is what makes your reason invalid. Certain situations have certain limits to them, such as when you are on vacation I can easily see you making a mistake and overlooking things, thus I am more inclined to let a few mistakes pass by. Just like when you are forced to say something I do not hold my personally feelings on if I think it was a good or bad idea as the basis for my vote. I hold only how scummy/town it appears to be, and yes I add disclaimers into the mix for this.
I wouldn't say so much I am arguing against people who are voting for people, i am more about arguing over the effectiveness of said vote. By all means vote vote vote... But do not base your strategy on a blind, reasonless vote... (that is my argument, not my statement towards you. I am not trying to say your vote is blind/reasonless.)Mexal wrote:What I'm trying to convince you of is that I voted someone because I thought their post was bad. You're arguing against people who are voting people for the saking of pressuring yet you're criticizing me for voting someone because I dislike them. You should, instead, be praising me for not putting a 4th vote on to see the reaction but rather voting them for an actual reason, whether you believe in it or not. I don't really know what you want or how you plan to go about finding scum but I will vote for and pressure people I dislike.
You keep missing the fact he A) Did not originally say it, and B) he said it was a bad idea and instead are pushing that he is trying to in a sense hide behind a false disclaimer so he can jump one way or the other. He is not saying a massclaim is good, he is not lobbying for a massclaim, he is not trying to judge our reaction, he is merely answering a question of an idea he had in his head. You seem to be adamant that he is some massclaim wanting mafia that is trying to hide behind a disclaimer. I'm all for getting info from people but I feel like you are pulling a whole lot of unnecessary suspicion on yourself because you seem to be only focusing on your opinions and not what he actually said.Mexal wrote:He originally posted that he had ideas that were more efficient. When asked, he said his idea was stupid and that it revolved around a mass claim. He then somewhat justified his terrible idea by explaining how it could work. I then voted for him for suggesting a mass claim. Explain again how I took him out of context?It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Ohhh snap my bad... ><It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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=D I like to steal rebuttals. It makes me feel special ;P
Well this is just a gut feeling but... I don't think I need to rehash my argument seeing as two other people said it themselves. (Ok Nym didn't actually say it.. but heactually said it... huh... that came out wrong... Ok he didn't say my argument, but he said the actual thing I was arguing about... Ok that came out better.. not as funny... but ok.)
As for me and Mexal, if you agree with him, I see no point in trying to explain things with you as you are already blind and/or unable to understand simple sentences. (Much like me actually XD)
His actions were not justified by a simple "whatever you said" they were justified by a question posed at him by a player you classified as "Decent scum hunting."Jerubbaal wrote:You cannot speak irresponsibly and expect your actions to be justified by a simple, "well, this is probably stupid," or, "well, this is just a gut feeling"
And:
Does anyone else see this as funny? I do... I mean he pretty much admitted what he just did was a bad thing, and I think bad things are more or less not good for town.(Jer, if you want to know what I am talking about here read either mine or oEJo's post in regards to what Mexal did. If you still cannot see why you and Mexal are wrong then I will try, and I do use the term lightly, to explain it to you. And you know how fun my posts are )Guy who we need to find a nickname for if I am to quote him ever again :| wrote:distortion of arguments and actions is always bad,It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Wow I really hate when someone answers something in a post, then later on answers another thing with "Look at my above answer. Why do people keep asking me this? blah blah blah." in the same dang post. what? are we suppose to read your post long before you post it, yet alone write it? I mean talk about stupidity.
I could say the same about you. The fact that you read what he did as a post to judge how effective a massclaim would be, and not just a stupid idea like he said it was means you would rather create semi-likely scenarios instead of accepting what I saw as a perfectly good explanation/reason. People lie, yeah, so it is not always good to trust what they say. But to throw out an explanation/reason and assume what someone did is scummy is well... a bit anti-town in my opinion. It's basically saying that no matter how I answer you post you are going to come back at me with some type of attack that goes against all my reasoning. Thats great. Totally fool proof plan there Sherlock.Mexal wrote:You read what you want to read,state what you want to state and ignore everything else that was said.
I will admit I tend to think the best of people. Thats not always bad, but not always good either. So I can see how I could be missing a valid point from your side of things. I still don't why you would bring that up as a reason for a vote, but whatever.
And dang... I just read your last one directed at me... Damn man are you that much of an idiot? I am just posting how I read it too, and I read it a hell of a lot differently then you did. Logically I know a massclaim is stupid, thus when someone says "This is a stupid idea but... massclaim?" I tend to see they were telling the truth. Whether or not he was trying to judge a massclaim doesn't matter. That has an equal chance of being a mafia ploy AND a town plan, assuming he is mafia for that means you cannot see both sides. It's pretty obvious no one else is supporting the idea so I have no fear in it coming to fruition. So yeah, I tend to defend him for it. Mostly because I did not want to see a townie (In this case you) come in and attack him with a stupid argument and have another person (In this case me ><) constantly hound you over it.
Also if you are not prepared to argue your points to their full extent every single post you are in the wrong game pal. Stop thinking you know everything there is about who should play and how they should play. Unless you " know what is going on in my head" Don't you dare tell me how to play this game.
That over:
@Jitsu: No questions for me? I feel left out...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Wow this is the first Time I have ever just skimmed the new posts before posting... You guys really are active during the day... huh, go figure.
Ok...
Can you name the "Follacies" I have committed please? Thanks...jerubbaal wrote:These fallacies are not huge deals, and not really even as big as those committed by other players, such as Korlash,
Also:
Hey just because I do not agree with his point does not mean I don't get it. Jumping on an obvious suspicious thing, putting a pressure vote (Along with a lot of discussion, questions, reasons, etc.) and defending your statements are all very good things and I respect that. However, jumping on people's attacks with your own skeptasism can have the same effects. So I merely countered attacked a point I did not fully agree on, and you think I'm an idiot because of that? Huh... So we should limit our focus of attack on only those who post things and assume the ones attacking them for it are town? (Note that was rhetorical and I am in no way trying to twist your words here. I am merely illustrating my point. Thanks ^^)jerubbaal wrote: I really don't think he ever quite "got" Mexal's point in the whole shouting match.
As for all this new stuff... I will get to it as soon as I get back! Glad to see a good quality Anatta post... Can't wait to read it.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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When did I get huffy over a vote placed on me?It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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No, I just didn't feel the need to confuse you with my bad language before I got the only real answer I wanted out of you. If you want me to use better grammer thats fine, but try and use correct words yourself there.Jer wrote:And you really have nothing to say about the rest of my post?
Lets see,
They might weed out bad players... Your right. A bad player may react badly to it and thus we gain something. However, I generally find a pure random vote does not even make most bad player's react in any bad way. At the same time a pure "I am going to put pressure on you with this vote" vote without any backing has a semi good chance of leading to bad info. (As in an OMGUS vote, an attack at a player's lack of reason, getting annoyed to the point of flaming. Things like that.) But at the same time it can lead to the person being voted for talking. (As in questioning why he was being voted for.)
So in my mind it is much more useful to simply say "Hey so and so. You said this, this, and this. I don't agree with this, and I think this is a pretty suspicious thing. Mind explaining?" instead of "Hey I think so and so is suspicious. Vote: So and So!"
You clearly see how discussion will speed up with the first sentence, leading to effective scum hunting and info for the town. While the second sentence is a gamble as to if the player is bad enough to react. If you want an accurate read of a player you need more then just a reaction to a vote, you need their reaction to a well thought out and based question.
Point two I think is pretty much answered... well not really. I am not claiming bad player. I feel I am a pretty good player, even though the general consensus around here is I am more or less an "idiot who doesn't get things." (Thats how I sum up all your guy's comments about me. I don't believe anyone actually used the term idiot.)
It is not so much that three votes made me talk, it was more I started to actually form opinions about tings at three votes. I feel there is a certain number of votes a player can receive before they feel obligated to say something about it. Such as me, as soon as I get at least 1-2 active player's votes on me I will speak up on things so as to hopefully get my face and ideas recognized and to hopefully answer anything they thought was vote worthy. Granted using myself as an example was not the best thing i could have done to prove my point, so I can see where this could very well be labeled as talking in circles or even a folly.
Third point, you pretty much summed it up. I have, in the past, used a player's random vote to suggest a small distancing technique that could be used by scum partners, also, say I voted you as my first vote. If you die and are proved town, my vote could be used to to show I "voted for town." Neither of those are very good attacks I know, which is why I try to avoid even the possibility of them being used. Better safe then sorry. I am sure there are more examples I just cannot think of the ATM.
Note: I hope you did not read that post.I am going to try your suggestion of being very clear and what not. This means I will have a quote, then one or two sentences about it. This of course limits my responses and in effect means I will not be able to fully give my opinion on things. I find it hard to imagine how that will help the town, but if thats what you think is best... here it goes:
I have only seen one tiny "Internal inconsistency" so far so I find it a bit of a stretch to say that they "usually are".Jer wrote:I'm sorry Korlash, but I just do not think that your arguments are usually internally consistent and/or address the relevant points of a discussion.
I actually feel my posts do address the relevant points, at least I thought I did.
That means I will attack their claim to see how they react. If they defend it well I am more likely to agree with them, just the same, if they defend it poorly i will be more inclined to disagree with it.Jer wrote:For one, I'm not sure what "jumping on people's attacks with your own skeptasism"
A dumb town may act the exact same way, which could start a long spiral to their lynch where a simple question might have been cleared up in 4 posts.Jer wrote:First bold point, okay,so a smart scum might not trip up if some pressure comes on him, but a dumb one might.I'm entirely fine catching dumb scum. How good a player is has nothing to do with whether they are scum or not. So here you note that they're not very helpful against good players,don't acknowledge the idea that bad players might respond differently.
Bad players always respond differently then good players, like you said how good a player is has nothing to do with if they are scum or not.
I did not feel pressure from the votes, I felt I didn't fully understand where you guys were heading with your Fourth vote plan, so I spoke up about it.Jer wrote:Second bold point,you claim that the pressure of three votes was sufficient to get you talking, despite the fact that you just claimed that a good player shouldn't feel any pressure from votes.Are you claiming bad player? But here you admit that they can be helpful getting people to start talking, despite the fact that just before you said they weren't helpful against smart players.Are they only helpful in making dumb players talk?Were they helpful in making you talk?
And i will not try and speak for other peoples actions. To some a vote may be a sign for someone to talk, while to others they may see it as I do. You very well could put your vote on someone who you will get a reaction from, I just would rather not take the gamble.
I do not fully understand what you mean here so my reasoning here may be a little off. Correct me if I am wrong.jer wrote:Third bold point, I don't see any players here getting huffy about the random votes placed on them, except potentially you. The other players can do the work, which is apparently important and relevant work, as it got you talking. The only thing I've really ever seen people bringing up random votes for is scum bussing their scumbuddy(s) early on. You seem to acknowledge that random votes have little meaning, as you admit that smart people shouldn't feel pressure from meaningless votes, so why are you so worried about people holding those votes against you later.
what do you mean by "The other players can do the work, which is apparently important and relevant work, as it got you talking." and how does it apply to this point?
Also I am not so much worried about a good solid attack for a random vote, I just do not want to give people any reason to create a bad attack like those I said before later on. (Voted a towny, distancing, etc.)
I think of myself as an open minded person so i am trying to work with you here. But I can easily see this as a way to just ignore everything I have been saying and create a "reason to doubt future posts" shadow on me. I am definitely not going to press this issue, as I can agree sometimes I am confusing, but I think it would be a lot better for you to point out what you do not understand about my posts, an let me explain them, then to try and make me change my whole way of playing. With the above quotes I feel I did not get to fully explain my stand on some points, and so I fully expect people to ask me to explain them. So while I will wok on bettering my "language" I also expect you to make an effort to understand my posts, even i it means asking me in specific detail "What does this mean?"Jer wrote:That was a bit longer than I had wanted it to be, but I think the point stands. My problem with your arguments, Korlash, has been their lack of internal consistency.You don't seem to know where you're going or how to get there.That's why I'm suggesting much tighter, accurately cited posts, so we can actually get to the point of what you're saying and see how it relates to the argument, because right now I just don't see it.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Sorry guys, I have been swamped at work these last few days. I missed my daily read up of this game and I know that will hurt me later. I will try and catch up tomorrow though.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Wow I am really going to kill myself if i keep putting this game on hold... Man I am not liking my hour long read up come tomorrow... But two things so I at least have input.
First, I find it strange how Anata went from no votes to three in three posts. With the third one basically saying "I agree with all that." (thats pretty much what I understood from the amen. I haven't actually read Jitsu's post yet so don't misunderstand me that I am trying to push this as an attack.) I just think it strange... Anyways I look forward to what you said about it... it must have one hell of a convincing post...
Secondly:
You are the first person I have ever heard that shares that opinion with me. I have made case after case about how a simple "pressure" vote means nothing overall. And every time I make that argument people hound me for it... I'm glad I am not the only one who at least semi-thinks that way. I was beginning to feel weird...Sudo wrote:I love how people post that their votes are for pressure. For me, at least, saying that a vote is for pressure actually reduces the level of pressure on a person.
Well that is my input for today. I have the weekend off so I will have no excuse for not posting my sum up of things. Look forward to it =DIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Wow... my brain hurts... and why are my eyes bleeding?
Ok I had like three or so quotes lined up but have already forgotten them so i guess they were not that important... That just shows how not playing the game firsthand sucks and I hate work... grrr...
Let me see... Anata seems to be in the current spotlight... which I find funny because of how people originally said her post lacked anything real and was all a summary and I do not see how that can say anything about a person's affiliation all. But for the little bit she has been posting I like the idea of people pushing for more from her. Granted some better reasons may help like say... from Mexal. I mean WTF man... For like two full pages (of my reread) I was in total agreement of how pro-town you looked and I agreed you had a sort of... kinda ICish feel to you. Then you go and more or less join a bandwagon on the basis "what he said"... I would have expected at least something from you... Your vote just doesn't sit right with me...
Kinda pointless to say you think the people on your side are most pro town. It could very well be converted into a sort of "Buddying up" thing... I'm not pushing it, just my advice on things...Jitsu wrote: I see Mexal and Jerubbaal as being the most pro-town at this point for their helpful insight, commentary that is helping encourage good town play, and pressure on those that look scummy.
another thing:
Nothing is ever "clearly spelled out" in mafia. I mean with all the suspicion, paranoia, stupidity, and newbiness floating around nothing will always seem the same to everyone. Take the massclaim thing. Sudo clearly spelled out that he felt it to be a bad idea but being asked here it was... Yet a few people took that as some kind of scum trap for power roles or whatever. And this is basically what mafia boils down to, who can explain their point in such a way as to make people understand it the best they can.Jitsu wrote:when there were clearly spelled out in the posts and spawned pages of aggressive posts that were virtually impossible to miss,
So, how about, instead of telling her how obvious they are, you explain it to her so that she does understand them. You cannot criticize people for not understanding something unless you have tried to explain it to them.
Right now I would like a bit more from Mexal on his reasons for voting Anata. Even quoting main points from jitsu would be a start...
I want a lot more form anata as well. Maybe a list of people you think is most likely scum and why. Maybe answering a few of the questions posed at you wouldn't be bad.
Right now I need sleep. I have all weekend off (just my luck all you guys leave when I get off... jerks...) So I will be hoping back into the discussion. Again I apologize on my absence as it clearly keeps me from keeping up with you guys and posting things of real use.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Well I just think someone who makes such good points cannot put a small bit of input in himself to solidify his own vote... I mean "I agree with that they said" is so vague and unhelpful it is more or less worthless... And then you basically come back and say you didn't want to "rehash what other people say." All I asked was you at least pointed out what he said that you agreed with. Thats all. Maybe a reason why you agree would be nice. Otherwise I just take it as vote hopping...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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I just kinda figured the type of player you are you would have had some input yourself.
But it doesn't really matter one way or another seeing as how she hasn't addressed a lot of the points at all. So whether you had input or not it probably would not have been answered at all...
I have some things I have to get to tonight but I plan on being back and posting something detailed later.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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You at least said why you were voting her. He only said "I agree."
your post had points such as "lazy and distorting analysis" and "bad reading and bad reasoning"
You also mentioned how "Anata seems to have attempted to color his(Sudo) actions in a favorable light."
Then finished with:
"However, for now I'll ride the gathering bandwagon. Anata has a lot that needs to be explained. At the least, lazy analysis is unacceptable. Three votes seems like significantly more pressure than two. "
these things here showed me A) Your vote was based on Certain things B) what things they were based on and C) That your vote was to get information on the things you talked about.
With those three points I feel your vote had a good chance of gaining info, while Mexal's vote did not add anything to the discussion. In hindsight, 3 votes is better to get her to talk seeing as how avoiding she is of the points Jitsu made, I still think Mexal should have added something...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Well I never thought I woudl see a Millionaire reference in a game of mafia... Props for a first there...
As for your tainted info thing I get it. I understand your point I really do. I can understand how hiding info from a player in order to accurately judge their responses can lead you to better information.
But the downside of that is hiding info from a towny may get them confused, scared, or panicky and thus lead to false info on them. Which could spiral down into a very strong case against them that gets them lynched.
in my mind the line that divides both our views is pretty slim and has a lot of ifs and buts in it. I'm not fully against what your doing but I think overusing that strategy can do more harm then good in the long run. Especially to a player who is getting votes based on simple "I agrees" and what not.
For now all I want is to hear her explanation on a few things you said.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Quick question, Do you agree that the mere statement "I agree with what he said." is all the reason and explanation a vote needs? I can understand that some points you made were good, but by not giving any info or adding anything what so ever, Mexal can either distance himself from any point you made that someone proves false, or push his support for any point you prove even more. In a sense his reasons for voting are vague and allows him to jump on either side of any upcoming issue that spring forth from your points.
And I have not said anything Mexal did was a scumtell (another overused term in mafia) I just wanted to find the exact points he agreed with and WHY! I mean if you agree with someone tell me why, Unless your just saying that to avoid suspicion and cast additional pressure on another player. (Not saying that is what he is doing.)
I don't see how that fits here. Not giving a reason just because you do not want to be adding useless fluff clearly means you do not think your reasons are good. So I cannot see why your bringing this up. is it to try and defend Mexal? Or is it to say Jer's reasonings were useless fluff? Or was it to say my reasonings were useless?Jitsu wrote:Be careful. Giving a vote without a detailed reason can indeed be a scumtell, but an insincere attempt to agree by merely adding useless fluff can be too.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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If only we could get such thought out posts from anata...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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yay for Postiness!
...
Do we get a reward? Medals? Cake? =DDDDIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Well I will try and be less Careful with my posts then
If your trying to get people to begin looking at me again then all the more to you. In fact you should start it off. I think I have said everything I need to for my "attack" on Mexal, but if you have anything else you want cleared up all you need to do is ask. =DIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Well I actually didn't want to start anything new right now. still waiting on Anata and what not. But seeing as how you brought it up...
Kinda funny coming from the second most voted person... Just an observation here... Could be nothing, could be him trying to get pressure off himself.Mixtef wrote:I do not want this day to go by with only a fowl swoop and anata dieing. I think changing the attention to 1 or 2 more players is necessary before this day ends.
But you wana get the pressure back on me, go ahead and use that to start you off. I have nothing to hide.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Yeah, I too do not think what he did is scummy, and I feel justified in the answers I got from him. More or less I am glad I asked him because I am not left with any unknown hole on him.
Also @ Miztef: So because I do not admit my actions are intentionally scummy that means I am non committal? And FYI, be me mafia or town I would try to paint my comments in the best possible light. And if I am able to "slip out of any argument" then I have to either be a very good lier or have some damn good arguments. Maybe even both eh? =D
And I am sorry bout that quote... I have to admit I laughed when you mentioned it... In my defense the "X" and "Z" key are side by side... lolz...
Also I feel I should say some proverbial comment here... like... "Korificus says all mafias raise their hands!" =PIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Oh shit... What the hell guys... *bangs head on desk* Why do I even bother... Ok give me a bit and I'll do a read up... *sighs*
Wait wait wait... i remember seeing something directed at me in there somewhere... let me find it...
How so? because I admit there is a possibility I am lying? I won't say that isn't a possibility. But if it was something else that doesn't make sense I will be glad to confuse you more... I mean explain it... >.> <.<Jer wrote:Lynch all Liars. You still make no sense to me.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Yeah tell me about it...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Yeah the "So pro-town must me scum" argument always makes me laugh... then again I have been known to use it from time to time... XD
I was going to do my reread and post today but just to piss Jer off I decided to put it off againIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Not oEJo... He was cool... ;_;It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Ok I will try my best here.. My cat won't get off of me and it is kinda hard to type... Move cat... Ouch...
>.> <.< I am a slave to my own pet... sad days are now...
Ok, between Anata and Miztef I would vote miztef simply because a replacement does change things. Almost none of the stuff you have on Anata can in anyway be linked to her replacement... I mean a simple" You did this? Why?" could get you very good scummy answers, while the same question to a replacement gets you an "I don't know why she did it." And kills your point. Personally I have not seen a lot come from Miztef or Anata and thus why I have not voted them. Granted I have only been skimming these last few pages so I may have missed a few things.
As for CKD's latest posts I find them very funny. I admit it was fun to push Mexal's buttons way back when.. but I have learned that that does not help us so I try not to anymore... (IN fact I have so far found three players on this site you should never push their buttons.. Ryan, Mexal, and Elias... Man does it make the game crazy...)
But I am one to talk aren't I? I was pretty much doing the EXACT SAME ATTACK against Mexal that he is now. The "I don't think your vote without reason is valid" thing... So my points on this issue would be a little biased and thus I do not want to get into it much..
So without scanning the thread again for actual posts I agree/disagree with that is all I can comment on right now... I do look forward to hearing from the replacements though...
Who doesn't? Rowl! Kitty wants some candy!:twisted: (I couldn't resist... Man... I'm going to hell for sure XD)Mexal wrote:And yet again, you're trying to make my vote on Anata seem invalid. You must have a massive hard on for her or something.
Also... I just thought of it... The worst game in history of mafia... Vollkan, Jitsu, and Gemelli! O.o... One day of those three would make even the most hardcore mafia fans wet themselves... I think my head would just explode... all over the wall... like... *shudders*
... It is way to scary for even me... I think one day of them posting would be like a combined.. 480,000 words, 12,456 numbers, 50,000 "%" signs, and like... 15,678,452 opportunities for your eyes to begin bleeding... AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!
I love random tangents... don't you? ^^It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Mexal wrote:So basically what you're saying is that you want to lynch Miztef
Easy there.. I never said II wrote:Personally I have not seen a lot come from Miztef or Anata and thus why I have not voted them.wantedto lynch him at all...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Really... I am sure I have made odder posts then that... But it more or less is my current stance on things. Like I said, I haven't been totally following this game. I have two Jitsu like posters each hounding me in another game so all my attention is on that one. I thought I gave my current thinking rather well.. Oh well...Miztef wrote:That is definately the oddest post I've seen all game. With basically no true content as well....
On the Anata points... Lets see... Just because she started another game doesn't really mean anything... Perhaps she just plain hates coming home everyday after work to find another 3 pages of discussion from one day. sure that is a pretty bad reason to get out of the game but it is possible...
Also I wouldn't say don't keep building your case against her, do so her replacement knows where he/she stands. But i find it a bit... um... Not good I suppose is an ok way to describe it, to keep piling up the bandwagon on her right now... I mean get your case ready and bullet main points, get questions ready, and all that great stuff but don't force the replacement to enter the game at like L-2 or something... Thats messed up... would you honestly even want to do a reread and begin posting if you enter a game a L-1 or L-2? I would just say screw it and begin to wing it...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Thats a bit... Um... Contradictory... You think the mafia would kill you to frame him yet he would not be worried about framing himself if he were mafia? Right...CKD wrote: A.) he is scum, wants me off his back b.) he is town, and the mafia wants to frame him.
As for the Meta-Issue... I believe you cannot talk to people about still active games they are/have participated in. But, seeing as how metaing Anata now is not actually talking to her about it, it should in no way effect that game, PROVIDING, no one else here is also in that game. Or thats my take on it...
And I guess no comment on the NK choice thing... Honestly I can think of a couple better Nk choices the mafia could do then CKD simply so they can frame him tomorrow... But No need to go into them as I understand the thin Ice it is...
Oh yeah... Lots of reasons why too...Gunslinger wrote:Would it really matter how the replacement acted if we had already gotten scummy vibes from the role?
1) If they deem it an unwinable situation they may refuse to play right and just mess around. So to come into the game at a near lynch vote already they may just automatically give up.
2) we will want the replacements opinions on Anata's past actions. What he or she thinks Anata meant, why she did it, what they woudl have done instead, etc...
3) We want the replacement's read on the other players to be as unbiased as possible. So the less we seem like we would just sacrifice Anata before hearing her defense, the more likely to get an accurate response from her replacement. Personally, if I was replacing and two people had each tried to have my previous person lynched BEFORE I replaced after he left.. I would hate those two right off the start... So... Yeah...
Or that is my take on it... let's say Anata is town who did for some reason get caught up... If any of the above happen we could more or less lose a very good replacement player. I mean you all said something about her being "lazy" or something right? Perhaps her replacement will be a bit more like Mexal or Jitsu or something... Wouldn't it be nice to give him or her a chance instead of automatically assuming they are scum right off the start?
Yes, keep your feelings on Anata, and if you believe that strongly keep your vote on her. But I'm asking we do not continue to place votes based on info we will never get the answer to...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Dang... four posts.. in a row... I need to figure out a system for this game.. Good thign Gunslinger got here in time...
Ok... On that note:
So you come in, say "I agree that either of the two names I keep seeing you guys talk about are good choices but this player is a better choice for no apparent reasons at all!" And then... leave it at that... Sure I am not the best player to post good, reason filled posts, but I never suggest lynches based on nothing at all... either take the time to reread and cite specific examples, or stay out of the current discussions like I am. You don't help things by putting in useless opinions.Gunslinger wrote:I would say that our best lynch options for today would be mitzef or anata. There have been many points made over the course of these pages, and Mitz and anata have both done suspicious things. The way i figure, Anata would be a good first day choice. She clearly made some summy statements, and we all have picked up on them.
(And yes I know I do it all the time but I try to only do it if I am 100% up to date with what is going on and have a pretty good understanding of my feelings on the situations.)It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Really? I just saw Jitsu vote her and I thought she already had 2... So in my mind I saw her with 3 votes.. yeah the last mod vote count was on page 13 but jitsu was one of those voting.. hmmm...
MOD:Hows about an up to date vote count?
I was more worried about people continuing to vote for her and not what she was voted right now... But yeah I see your point.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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I told you I was mistaken... Plain and simple... If she is only at one vote then thats cool. I just saw Jitsu vote her after it was said she had a replacement coming and I didn't know if it had or will be the trend.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Well to be honest I just replaced into a game that had already lasted... 43 pages I think... And the guy I replaced was... how to put it... the obvious lynch choice... So I do admit I am a little biased come replacements and why I am so jumpy at voting a player being replaced...
(Hey Moddoes this count as talking about on going games? did not mention game name, did not mention players, did not mention actions, just metaed it... but still paranoia kicked in... have to ask here... If so can we just delete it and I swear never to do it again? If not I still swear never to do it again...)
Oh a sidet note I still have not really seen anything I feel deems Anata worthy of a lynch. This makes me think a reread is in order and so... Looks like that is what I will be doing tomorrow...
Also on a side note I find CKD more suspicious then Miztef right now... I will also try and outline that in detail tomorrow... for now I shall go /wrists seeing as how I just spent 2 hours on a post that wont get up because of a hammer and a locked thread ;_;... Yeah... Funny cause it's true...
*cries*It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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KK thanks... I'll keep my talk off anything that deals with an active game...
Wait... that means... I cannot talk about this game! T_T
=DIt's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Yeah and it more or less becomes a moot point that only wastes the town's time debating it...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Yeah we have 3 players that each have replacements on the way yes? The day is more or less at a stand still until we get that fixed because any point anyone brings up will more or less be directed to that by the attacked.
*sigh*
Of course we can try to focus merely on an active... You guys can step up on me if you want.. without enough active players to lynch though I find any pressure at all will be worthless and more or less any discussion will stall out...
*random insult at Mexal* =D
kidding...
>.> <.<It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Yeah... I don't want to keep seeming like I am defending Anata here but that is more or less another "I agree with what they said" vote... You all know my feelings on that matter already...
But if you guys feel so confident in whatever case you have against her go ahead... I will be saying I told you so tomorrow... bank on it...
Ok I decided to be fair and look at each of Jitsu's and Mexal's points for Anata being today's lynch on THIS PAGE! to be honest... there is not a single point on this page of why she is in anyway scum... Only points on why replacements should not be given any chance to defend themselves and should be lynched before joining... (Exaggeration I know but you get my point more or less =D)Gunslinger wrote:I have to say that I agree with all of Mexals and Jitsusposts on this pageabout Anata being the lynch for today.
SoUnvote:, Vote: GunslingerKB
Your vote was not even an "I agree with them!" vote... it was an "I agree with their points that I didn't even read" vote... I will be honest I still have to go back and fully read your case against Anata, but Gunslinger just said his reasons were on this page and yet there are none.. so he is a liar, and is more or less acting strange and scummy to me...
More on the Anata case I think... If I am going to keep up this "defense" of her I might as well know the case right? =D Her replacement better give me money... I like 100's!
And to further prove my point I give for your viewing pleasure some of post 449:
Come on... Contradiction? Hypocrite? Liar? Mistake? (Yeah I am an ass )Gunslinger wrote:We should give them a chance, and especially get their unbiased opinions.It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Alright working backwards...
I see a little meta on her... More or less... If his was a trial.. we would have to ignore it. But seeing as how we know it might as well use it... and it proves:
Nothing at all... many many many things could be happening as Sudo has shown... While you can argue she could have been a scum afraid of being lynched, she very well could have been a town who got fed up with your houndings... An attack like this that has an equal chance of being both sides... Kinda pointless... So far no real case.. I shall keep looking!
I see people admitting her post was more or less a summary.. neither scummy nor towny... no case still...
Clearly she did have a good point against Jitsu... Could be why he has been pushing her... It all means nothing really, just a small thing on Jitsu that proved nothing. But it does make you think how accurate some other of his claims could be... Hmmm... (This going backwards thing is totally cool... so used to going forwards when I reread XD)Anata112 wrote:Jitsu
... After checking for new posts, he agrees that sudo_nym shouldn’t have proposed the mass claim, but he was the one that asked sudo_nym what his ideas were. Am I wrong here?
Thats a good possibility... Try this one... Why can't she be a new town who does not understand the difference between main points and little details? To her it could very well all seem the same.Mexal wrote:I don't buy it. You are making the assumption that she is lazy. You don't know her, you don't know her style yet you can accurately say in 10 posts that she's being lazy. How do you know this? What about her analysis suggests this? The fact that she doesn't know the reasons behind Sudo? The fact that she's leaving out major events in the game while focusing on the minute? Why can't that be calculated? Why can't she be a newbie scum trying to look town by focusing on details that are irrelevant to the main conversation because one of the people in the conversation is scum with her? Is that so far out of the realm of possibility that we automatically assume she's lazy?
Or this: She could be town who thinks the big issues are more of less covered already so she comes at it from a different angle!
Or: She is a VERY good mafia player and thinks that by missing the main points she can more or less keep attention off herself!
All kinda wack theories if you ask me... one of them has to be kinda close I think... So basically the case so far is she seems scummy for missing the major points... I can see that, definitely not worth lynching... but some case at least...
So... your saying she hasn't talked for a while... and now she is getting replaced... so... She... Is scummy.. for not talking... when she was getting replaced?AA/Mexal wrote:“Why do I have to post follow up questions when Anata doesn't even address the post that was made against her?”
Seems a bit odd...
This actually makes me want to find out just how far back we have to go to find a real case against her... and that brings me to post 324 in which we are told she is being replaced... that was 6 pages ago!!!! 6 pages! So... more or less anything after that are attacks that could not be answered... So I personally think anything after that point is more or less not a case... Dangit! Now I hate this backwards thing...
*Sigh*... So it isn't my fault I have no idea what your guy's case is... it's been too long...
Anyways her last post seems to be post 265... *sigh*... This requires more then 5 min of my time me thinks...
I am seriously going to go back over your complete case against her tomorrow I promise... Until then I want you to take some of the things you have against her and weigh how much they mean unanswered, versus how much you are making them out to be. Until then my vote on Gunslinger stands... that was just weird what he did...
On a side note I see you guys have said a lot about Miztef these last few pages... he is here! Why not continue to push whatever that was until we get the replacements in? Or push Gunslinger? Or push me? seems it would be a better use of our time...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Um... I honestly laughed at that... Sorry... I need to sit down for a second... Ouch my spaghetti...
Ok... Is it just me or is the quote:
Not the funniest damn thing you have ever heard...Gunslinger wrote:Why else would you be jumping on the weaker player that has made some dumb posts? (Ie: Me)
Ahh man... My head hurts... Ohhh that was great...
Listen man... No matter how newb you are if you make a dumb post expect to get hounded on it.
Ok... where was I...
Slightly OMGUSish... But reasonable... I appreciate you focusing on a more active player... Props for that...
Now how to completely turn the tables on you... decisions... decisions... Oh I haven't had such a hard time choosing something since the Mace was invented.. How I loved the Flail... anyways...
Um... I pointed out where you agreed we should let the replacements come in and then you more or less go back on that as your reasons to vote. So either you have no reasons or you have contradicted yourself...
I jumped on Jitsu kinda... Not a full on vote but his vote more or less started my earlier rants against the Anata Bandwagon... As for Mexal.. I more or less ignore him... =D
Newb =/= automatically towny or a free pass in this game. I could care less if this is your first game, you did something I felt was scummy and I called you on it. If you think being new is a good excuse then boy do you have the wrong game...Gunslinger wrote: You seem dire to make me look like scum, even though half the people in this game have realized im pretty much ust a newb. It seems as though you know Anata is scum, and that your trying to protect a teamate.
As for the teammate thing, not to get to WIFOM, but if I were Anata's partner I would use this as a perfect time to bus... I mean Replacement... Day 1... I am not exactly the most pro-town looking player so far... All in all it would make more sense that her partners would be pushing for her lynch... But as I said it becomes way too much WIFOM and I don't like to get too far into that.
Again... Stop falling back on your newbiness.. Feel confident.. that is key to a mafia game... No matter how dumb you may think you sound, be as confident as you can and you are more likely to win over the other players. That being said... Let me show you how it's done...Gunslinger wrote:Many people made clear posts about why Anata would be scum, and you just seemed to "fail to understand why she could be" Now it seems like your trying to tturn the attention from Anata onto me. Just because of some weak post i made.
*Clear throat*
I have clearly mentioned how I want the town to focus on active players. Attacking and voting replacements will get us no where.. there is no chance in hell we will lynch someone right now.. we have 3-4 people being replaced plus me, thats 5 townies (Potentially) not going to vote in a lynch. So... Not nearly enough people to lynch. So I feel we need to press the actives to squeeze as much info as we can right now or else risk a complete standstill. So yes, I would rather get the attention off her and onto you. I also would like to get it onto me (Quite frankly I feel I can totally dominate you in any back and forth attacks so I have no fear putting myself in the spotlight. No offense...)
So more or less thats my stand... As for the "Clear posts about why she is scum" thing... Those were 7 pages ago... Restate them now or wait for her replacement... Whether or not you feel the case has been stated, she has been inactive for half this dang game... half of your "case" is worthless because it more or less hangs on the fact "She gave no pro-town excuses for things she did" when in reality.. She barely gave any excuses at all because she has not been here...
Any case brought around after she asked for a replacement should not be used as a basis for a lynch. If you cannot understand where I am coming from by all means continue on with this. You guys could be the most lucky town in the world and have magically found a mafia member... But I feel the chances are more likely your all blowing it out of proportion or blindly following the scum on their anti-town crusade.
So... Let me throw up my case... and see what you guys think about it...
When you attack someone, you base a lot of your stuff on how that player reacts to it yes? So their reaction be it scummy or towny looking will direct how you think of them. at the same time, in most cases, if a player deliberately does not answer questions/attacks thrown at them then they seem scummy for not answering. BUT, when a player isUNABLE, I repeatUNABLETo respond to those attacks you more or less lose everything you were trying to get from attacking them in the first place.
See half of what you guys are calling a "Clear case" on Anata is speculation about what she "MIGHT" have meant... Because we do not have her explanations on things, we do not get to see what her excuses/reasons are for what she did and so we are all rolling with what WE THINK happened. This is very dangerous people... You are all pushing for a lynch of a defenseless towny(Not saying she is town, just a term I use to describe anyone I am unsure about... better safe then sorry)
And yes I know if Anata comes up scum I look bad, but I don't care about myself. I care about this town and this town winning! And so I do not want us to end day 1 by taking a huge gamble and missing out on info from the people being replaced...
While I will say Anata is probably the "MOST SUSPICIOUS" person, I do not see enough for a lynch... Not in a long shot... You guys had a case against her 8 pages ago, but it wasn't enough to lynch then.. so it damn sure isn't enough to lynch now... So if you guys want to take a gamble go ahead. I only hope you wise up come tomorrow... And I really hope you do not make a huge mistake we regret for the rest of the game...
My vote sticks on you Gunslinger.. You rely too much on the fact you are "New" and have even admitted your posts are "weak and dumb."It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
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Ok you are seriously either trying desperately to make some case on me or are hoping to throw anything I have said against Anata out the window... I don't know which...
I know the case you guys had on her 8 pages ago. I got that one... Thats great... And as you said "I was interested in hearing her defense"... SHE HASN'T GIVEN ONE! And she never will... So most of the case you had on her is merely SPECULATION! I mean I could easily turn what you said against me as you trying to "make me the bad guy" in one way or the other... And if you never said anything about it... That would be my thinkingfor the rest of the game! And thus you would be scum. I know this is not the case though, and If I felt like making it seem like it was I know you would come back and turn it around on me. Thus, because you can defend yourself, any "stupid" or "Inconsistent" or even some kinda of "maybe" case can all be shot down before it turns into a real case.
The Anata thing was a so called "Maybe" case.. that is she could have had valid reasons for half the stuff you guys accused her of. The biggest being "Lazy" as an excuse if I remember correctly... But because you never got any real answers from her you all assume everything you talked about is true! And so everything you think makes her scum is just your opinion of it and not hers!
I really hate I am unable to explain things... hmmm.. how to say it...
Ok... Lets say a person attacks a guy, the guy defends, and the first person completely ignores that persons defense and continues his attack. That is almost exactly what you guys have been doing these last 6 pages. You refuse to let her defend herself and you are afraid she will get out of a lynch? Your afraid she will defend herself! Come on... Seriously... You honestly will lynch someone who has been unable to defend themselves half the game? You guys deserve to lose... Your completely letting the mafia take this game over... *shakes head* I almost don't care anymore... It's barely worth playing this game as it is... But I would rather have a loss then a replacement any day I suppose...
I feel you have no case... Or more accurately, the case you have is only one sided and has no defense from the person you have attacked... Anyone will seem scum if you refuse to hear their side.Jitsu wrote:Do you feel that you currently understand the case made against Anata or not?
If you guys think lynching someone who is unable to defend themselves is fine then you are anti-town. Plain and simple. I would not be surprised if it is Jitsu, Mexal.. and... well I would say Gunslinger right now but the mere fact he switched votes makes him seem more likely to just be a new town. (No offense)
I feel... that the case you guys had on her back when she was posting did put her on top of my list.. but not nearly enough to vote... the fact you seem to want to lynch her for no "real" reasons makes me put you on top of my list (Not enough to vote, because then I would have to bring up a case, and outline it, and get myself in more trouble cause I suck at explanations.)Jitsu wrote:Do you still feel Anata is scummy? Do you still agree that there is a case against her? How good is it, compared to the other suspects?
Point is the "Current" case on her is BS. And until either she gets a chance to defend herself, or her replacement shows up the case will only get more BS the longer you add to it.
Well, do what I did, put yourself in her shoes. What if you were out of internet contact for a week and everyone lynched you on the basis "You did not defend yourself." How would you feel? I mean we have a 1 in 4 chance we all randomly picked the correct person to lynch... Nothing she has posted or any of your attacks have altered that ratio for her... so its a gamble to lynch her... In my eyes at least...Jitsu wrote:Based on comments in 471 and 474, it sounds like you are pretty sure that the town would be making a mistake by lynching her. Why are you so sure?
No, but I want to test his "newness." See exactly how he reacts to votes and things... not to mention I would rather weak attack actives then BS attack inactives... I'm glad you have finally begun doing that too. Feels good being Pro-town for a change doesn't it? =D (Joke...)Jitsu wrote:Do you feel that the case on Gunslinger is stronger than that of the other suspects?
Both of them would be better choices o lynch then Anata. Thats for sure... I don;t like CKD's posts a few pages back I think I talked about them in my little 4 post spiel you all said was worthless... he seems into the Miztef lynch... Who I myself don't really remember the case we had on him, but I feel he would do a better job defending himself then anata would...Jistus wrote:What is your opinion on Miztef and CKD?
I think that was all your questions... As for the "inconsistencies" you spotted... Let me see if I can shed some light on those too...
"you see some of the meta on her, but then you say that it proves nothing."
Yes I literally "saw" that you were metaing her.. and felt what you said proved nothing...No inconsistency there..
"You agree that Mexal's theory is "a good possibility", but then you go on to offer others that you don't really seem believe (though one of them is probably close)."
Out of the four listed (My three and his) one of them had to be close.. there were two that involved her being mafia, and two that involved her being town. While thy were all off the wall one had to have something right... Even if it was just her affiliation. Good point, still no inconsistencies..
"Then you says that there is "some case at least" [against Anata] but it's "definately not worth lynching". " There is ALWAYS some case... Like.. "That guy voted for that guy!" Depending on the situation that could be part of a case... But it is so not worth lynching over...
"Then you says it isn't your fault that you have no idea what the case against her is, even though you seem to see some of it." I saw what you had 8 pages ago.. I see nothing "New" you have now... So.. yeah... I have no idea why she is all of a sudden "Lynch before replaced" material.
On that note.. How the hell can you not see not waiting for a replacement to join before lynching as a town move? How can you justify killing someone without giving them any chance to defend themselves? Give me one good reason...
So I didn't see any inconsistencies in that paragraph... in fact I see none in the second one either... what the hell man... If you don;t like me fine.. but you need to stop with BS cases... I like the way you think but either you've become too obsessed with how "great" a player you are, or you are getting annoyed at how hard it is to convince the town to do it your way. (Implying your mafia here)
You know what I don't give a dang anymore... Do what the hell you want...
Unvote:
Don't expect me back until the replacements get here... Have fun losing...It's not my job to be right, it's my job to be convincing.
Star Trek Voyager Mafia! Ends in a Starfleet victory! Pomp, Circumstance, and Bloodwine for all!-
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- Posts: 6579
- Joined: August 23, 2007
- Location: The Constellation of Kasterborous