Designer Mafia 2007 - Game Over, Final Scene Posted!

[mneme]

Hey, all.

Nocmen, what's up with the post restriction/no post restriction thing? (fwiw, I -hate- people using morse to get around post restrictions. What's the point of having a role with limited communication if in practice, it just has annoying communication?)

Agreed that revealing submitted roles is pointless (there may be roles we didn't submit, or more likely, some we did may be alignment-switched), mostly helps scum, and doesn't make the game much more fun, either.

[mneme]

fwiw, I -hate- people using morse to get around post restrictions. What's the point of having a role with limited communication if in practice, it just has annoying communication?)

Then I doubt you have ever been a protown player who is suddenly incapable of communicating in any way.

I've taken on voluntary post restrictions for thematic reasons (like rhyming every post).

I've also had at least one post restriction, and played in at least one games where post limits came with special powers.

I've never had one of the -really- nasty post restrictions (though I've played two fully mute mafia games in person, and would love to play more; it was wonderful), but I've played in several games with same -- Asterix, among others that are no longer on my watchlist. (also, games with silencers and quasi-silencers, like the Final Fantasy mini).

But that's not the point; the point is that typically, post restrictions are intended to balance powerful roles, and while figuring out a yes/no protocol is fine (it is -limited- bandwidth, not -no- bandwidth), the dodge of using a character encoding is Just Dumb.

And honestly, frustrating post restrictions aren't a limitation on playing the game entirely; instead, they're a useful spice, letting you be more creative. And being more creative doesn't mean hacking the restriction so it isn't there at all; it means playing the game well -within- the restriction.

[mneme]

Oh, and have to agree with Nocmen here.

vote: Battlemage

[mneme]

Also, as I almost forgot, I am selling tickets for a local Renaissance fair! Please quote this if you want to buy a ticket! I assure you I can help you if you help me! If we all go the fair, we can all enjoy the Renaissance!!!!!!

I'll bite -- I want to see how this works.

[mneme]

unvote
vote: Nocmen

(for witch hunting and role fishing, not to mention perpetuating the myth of the random stage).

No, not giving explanations is not

per se

scummy.

[mneme]

unvote
vote: Nocmen

(for witch hunting and role fishing, not to mention perpetuating the myth of the random stage).

No, not giving explanations is not

per se

scummy.

Explain where I was witch hunting and role fishing.

As above, strenuously requesting explanations for votes that were not initially accompanied by explainations.

Votes without explainations can be:
[li]
[*] Lazy random votes.

[*] non-random votes where the voter doesn't feel a need to explain.

[*] Bandwagon votes.

[*] Scum votes (really, those are just bandwagon votes, mostly, or role-motivated votes)

[*] Role-motivated votes
[/li]

While you want to look at people's pattern of behavior, pushing too hard for explanations of votes clarifies the first four explainations vs the 5th one, and therefore verges on fishing.

Moreover, this is a game of feint, bluff, and direct attack, not one of "debate team 101". Throwing up bandwagons on people just because they refuse to explain votes regardless of whether it's reasonable that the votes -would- be explainable is witch hunting. More particularly, I don't think several of your attacks were reasonable and the pattern is troubling.

[mneme]

Why not?

Was it something I said? :)

[mneme]

Basically, it is bad for the game to just vote for someone seriously, but not say why.

No, actually, it's not.

Explanations are required for potentially scummy behavior, and, of course, a lot of this game involves making cases on one another. And if you want -others- to follow your vote, you might want to give an explanation.

But a vote (particularly, an early vote) isn't per se scummy, and therefore doesn't require an explanation. It's sometimes a good idea, and sometimes not.

Not throwing votes into this because this isn't a particularly scummy philosophical conversation, yet, on AFAICT, any side.

[mneme]

I don't see really how it would be role motivated, unless it was a lyncher or something,

This is Designer Mafia. All the roles are new--don't assume anything.

For example, I could see:

An Anti-mason (you know [insert group, probably 1 person] is scum).

A mason (you know, that oh-so-unsual mason role? The one that you can use to know people are innocent on day 1 and therefore have a better-than-normal idea of who's scum?)

Day-cop.

Vote-forcer (day vote-forcer, presumably).

And I'm sure people can think of variations and possibilities.

I'm pretty happy with my vote on Nocmen (oh, right, that's where it is. I knew that).

[mneme]

Thyroid, will your ability work if it's explained? Or is it something you're pretty sure the scum can play around?

[mneme]

I actually think SSF is the most suspicous of those on the thyroid bandwagon. (which is a really, really stupid bandwagon. What, someone's going to fake-claim a verifyable role on day 1?)

unvote
vote: SSF

Foolinc may just be following, but I think SSF may have decided that he ph3rz teh t1k3tz...because he's scum.

[mneme]

Battle Mage: I think you mean scare quotes. Anyways, look back at Thyroidectomy's initial posts; he explains how to "buy" a ticket.

[mneme]

Foolinc's posts have indicated that he fears the tickets, and ssf pointed out that he bought one.

unvote
vote: foolinc

[mneme]

Fool: flavor. Common sense.

Nocmen, just to be clear, SSF said

SSF

bought a ticket. I don't remember whether fool did, but I wouldn't want you taking me the wrong way there.

[mneme]

so how bout that lynching the Ren Faire guy? can we get back to that?

why are we doing that again?

'cause people are dicks.

FOS: everyone chiming in support of lynching the ren faire guy

Liking where my vote is just fine. Anyone want to join it?

[mneme]

ZF: ... because having a power is anti-town?

[mneme]

Mneme explains that Noc’s vote without explanation is rolefishing (WTF?). Jesus, more meeping conversation. More conversation about the tickets.

Um, no.

I explained that Noc's demanding an explaination for a vote (don't remember from whom any more), and keeping pressure on for same beyond reason was rolefishing. (and, really, generally bad play). As I mentioned then, "I'm voting X and don't feel like explaining why" is not, per se, scummy.

(why now?), wants to know why the wagon on foolinc (have you been reading?)..wants to know why he only has two votes. Not too much on this page.

Er, yeah. The wagon on foolinc was clearly because of his pressuring thyroid, just as the one on zoneace is.

Thyro, can you tell us how many tickets you have sold currently and who have bought those tickets? My count is 3, but I am not sure.

I'd like to know this too.

[mneme]

Oh, god, no. No Lynch is a bum possiblity.

But I'll wait for a vote count before moving my vote.

[mneme]

unvote
vote: Zoneace

I liked foolinc's last few posts more than Ace's, but wanted to see a vote count before considering switching.

[mneme]

Zone: I need not explain myself, nor should the explaination be inobvious; I'm voting you for the same reason I was voting foolinc for, only moreso. Near as I can tell, you're the player who pushed Thyroidectomy's bandwagon farthest and longest; in fact, you're still on it. I don't think "logicless" means what you think it does.

And...opportunism? Going from a 5 person bandwagon that just grew to a 3 person (now 4) bandwagon? A bit omgusish of you.

[mneme]

schis: because you'll do what? Nightkill us?

Don't get the BM vote here.

[mneme]

unvote
vote: foolinc

Same reasons as before.

[mneme]

Fool, I never thought, nor claimed, that you bought a ticket. That was someone else, misreading my post.

[mneme]

unvote
vote: Schtismatized

It's called role fishing, schitz, as you well know.

[mneme]

thirded on UA: 618. Voting for annoyance rather than scummy is tres scummy.

I never got the impression that Nocmen's restriction was only when someone mentioned his name immediately after his posts -- just that it had to be mentioned at some point between his last post and the next one or he could only talk in meeps.

[mneme]

Oh, and schis really needs to die. Seeing as he's a shameless bandwagonner who has yet to vote for anyone actually scummy.

[mneme]

Well, let's see:

p1:

3 meeps posts from nocmen. Quoting him apparenlty doesn't count.

schiz mentions his name.
aimee mentions his name.

p2:

nocmen talks normally.
nocmen talks normally

fl sez nocmen x2
twomz sez nocmen
I say nocmen
(battlemage -may- say nocmen -- a screwed up vote with semicolons instead of colons)

nocmen talks normally
nocmen talks normally
nocmen talks normally

p3:

nocmen talks normally
I say nocmen
nocmen meeps
nocmen talks normally

p4:

nocmen talks normally
thyroid says nocmen x2

p5:

nocmen talks normally
bamboo mentions nocmen x2
stark mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally
nocmen meeps
avalon mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally
tornado mentions nocmen
schitz mentions nocmen
nocmen talks normally.

Looking at every incidence of someone mentioning nocmen -not- in a vote and not as part of a quote tag (either &#005b;quote="Nocmen"] or as the body of the tag), it does look like nocmen has obeyed the post restriction "must not post normally more often than your name is mentioned".

If Twomz were to turn out to be scum, I'd be a bit more suspicous, natch.

[mneme]

FL: sure there is. We don't know what his restriction is. And linking this early to twomz would be just dumb. Can you say "witch hunt?" Sure, you can!

Oddly enough, not everyone who agrees with you is always scum -- and scum are usually smart enough not to obviously link too early. Which is why, while I'm pretty certain there are scum among those attacking Nocmen and Thesp -- -even if they're scum- -- I doubt -all- of those attacking them are scum.

My guess is that Nocmen's role is as presented -- even if it's been switched to scum or mucked with in other ways.

[mneme]

JDodge: oddly enough, I'd rather go after real scum than people with public roles or those trying to hunt scum. Tough.

[mneme]

I've noticed that you can be

incredibly distinctly

connected to Nocmen, and that mneme seems to have more info than he should. Nocmen has been

proven to be lying

.

*laugh*

"more info than he should"? It's called inductive logic, JDodge. You should try learning it sometime; it's a useful skill. Perhaps you should pick up the game Zendo -- it's a very cool game (and oddly enough, one I don't suck at). All I did was pull out nocmen's posts and those that mentioned him (actually, I just text-searched though the first five pages for "nocmen" -- it's not hard) and tried to find a pattern that would fit the role as it's so far been hinted at. Note, hinted at, not told:

Nocmen has

never told us how his role works

as far as I remember. He's hinted at a few things, and Twomz has told us some things about the role he submitted (which may not be exactly what Nocmen has -- and Twomz could be lying, of course). And people have made deductions based on what has been said about Nocmen's role -- but he's -never- come out and said how it works. Perhaps he doesn't want to. Perhaps he's restricted from doing so. Perhaps he's making it up as he goes along.

we don't know

.

[mneme]

Twomz: I stand corrected. What then is the connection people are drawing between you and Nocmen, then? If anything, it's jedi who submitted the appropriate role, and him they should be claiming is linked to Nocmen's role (since, after all, if Nocmen is faking his post restriction, -jedi- is lying).

[mneme]

FL: sure there is. We don't know what his restriction is. And linking this early to twomz would be just dumb. Can you say "witch hunt?" Sure, you can!

Decoded for the reading comprehension impaired (like FL). Jedi double-linking to Nocmen (as is the case if Nocmen does not have a "meep" role as described) would be very dumb on both their parts this early in the game. (I somehow had the impression that twomz had submitted this role, but was corrected).

Speculating on people faking roles that are then confirmed as made up by another player is fruitless and game-harmful -- first, there's not much percentage in faking a role in this game, rather than slanting a role slightly. Second, if players -have- messed up by linking too early, then we'll probably catch them at it later; there's no reason to presume it and cut off other lines of investigation.

[mneme]

Nocmen: I hope my post with 27 nocmens was (protown-) useful, then.

[mneme]

Can we get back to lynching schitz now? Provides much more info than lynching one of the PUBLIC ROLES, and more likely to lynch scum besides.

[mneme]

Schis is a bad player

is a really, really crappy defense.

(is happy where his vote is).

[mneme]

schis: do you -want- to get lynched?

[mneme]

JDodge: what, upset that people are voting your buddy? Too bad.

[mneme]

Jdodge's logic is, of course, impeccable. People who attack craplogic attacks and try to keep interesting "out" roles alive are always scum.

Just ask anyone.

Or, you know, not so much.

[mneme]

unvote

Just to avoid twomz dropping a lynching vote.

[mneme]

Ah -- thought there were more on Schtiz. Twomz, IGMEOY, but in the meanwhile, up to 9/11:

vote: schismatized

[mneme]

'sup, nocmen?

[mneme]

Sounds like we have a kingmaker among us.

Nocmen, any word on what your keywording at the end of yesterday meant?

[mneme]

Shamba: you're saying you "removed" tss from the game for today, marking him as scum, as an info gambit? But he can post, and isn't necessarily scum? Interesting.

Nocmen: re Horror -- I've got at least some idea of what you're saying there, so I'll stop there for now.

[mneme]

antimeeper = lyncher

Or something. I'll note that our going after the annoyance=vote people yesterday resulted in a scum lynch.

So, what's up, Nocmen?

Thyroid, you selling tickets today? I want one.

[mneme]

Oh,

vote: ZONEACE

[mneme]

Nocmen: i don't know that I've been in a game with Kali that didn't involve a lot of lazy following, scum or town. But others may have other experiences.

[mneme]

Oman. I know only shamba's vote counts today, but I'd certainly like to see that claim.

[mneme]

Pay attention Jedi, he did not sale enough yesterday. What I am more curious about though (in regards to him) is why he isnt trying to sale them today.

QFT.

I was wondering about this myself.

[mneme]

rereads...

Ok, Oman, the extra vote thing is real, right? (we all have as many votes as we want for different peopleonly you get to multiply your vote)

Anyways, not really worried about discussing a vote-multipler power, particularly with a kingmaker around. Not interested in powering it up, either; a static bonus can be useful if the character is pro-town, but we don't have any reason to believe that oman is protown (nor antitown).

King Shanba, have you decided whom to kill yet? This game is going SOOOO SLOOW.

[mneme]

We have a lot more actively scummy people (I'm talking to you, Dodge and Zoneace) for it to be worth lynching Kscope -just- because he's a serial lurker. Moreover, his interaction with known scum, if Oman's claim is correct (ie, scitz) and living scummy people points toward him being town.

Twomz was dead town, is now living dead. Not necessarily town now. That said, Twomz, who'd you protect night 1? Anyone wanna claim zombie master (or whatever)? Or claim to have submitted a resurecting role?

Jedi: defended (claimed) a pro-town role he created. Town.

King Shanba: could be the result of renfairness. Might not be. Not going to assume this one, particularly since it didn't meet the stated qual.


So:

Scum: JDodge, ZONEACE. Those who turn their scum-hunting powers to evil shall in their own turn be hunted.

FOS: ZONEACE
Vote: JDodge

(wasn't there someone else gung-ho against Nocmen?)

Town: Jedi, Probably Thyroid, kscope

IMO: Nocmen had some kind of investigatory role. Pro-town, post restriction usually = investigate. The blue shirt probably let him target someone else and dupe their power -- in this case, he duped the "fake someone's death in the morning post" power...in the night he himself died.

TSS is alive; he was the first player "killed" with Shamba's power, right?

[mneme]

Being obvwrong is a scumtell, yes. Copious amounts of WRONG are a scumtell. Witchhunting, going after people because of powers, rather than because of interaction, is a scumtell. (also, being JDodge or ZONEACE is a scumtell, but that's immaterial Neither you nor Zone have done any scumhunting at all this game; all you've done is try to start bandwagons on players for non-scummy actions; thus, you've both got a high probabity of being scum.

ZONE: it's an educated guess. Shamba did the same thing twice; once to TSS, once to himself. Last night, exactly the same thing happened to Nocmen. So clearly, there was a duplicating role going on, and with two factors (nocmen was targetted by jedi, nocmen presumably had his own powers), I don't see a reason to speculate about a third one. Of the two, it's much more likely that the "copy an ability as it was used" one was temp, not perm, given its wierdness, but that's the biggest stretch in the bunch.

[mneme]

The "grim" HORROR bit was clearly in the role; note that Nocmen hinted at it Day 1.

I'd vote for Jdodge, except that my intuition already lead me to vote for him today. Vote stays.

[mneme]

The argument that JDodge is as likely to be vig as scum is the one that's horrendous. No killer is-ever- as likely to be vig as scum, without an innocent cop investigation, at least. Moreover, even with JDodge's stated beliefs, vig-killing nocmen would have horrid play.

JDodge is scum who thought he could get Protown Nocmen lynched yesterday on the strength of "inconsistencies" in his meeping role. He couldn't, and fearing that Nocmen was a cop, he killed him. But unbeknownst to him, Nocmen was actually playing a poison pill role, which tries to get itself nightkilled to reveal a scum, so he's screwed. It isn't hard to figure, and kscope's reveal was exactly correct.

[mneme]

*nod* Puppet master is very different from QFT-guy (but Bel's puppet nature being revealed makes his role a little to a lot worse). Regardless, both roles are confirmable (puppet master is effectively a single player mason or mafia pair; double-voter makes multiple votes...) and neither is confirmed town by ability, so we should really wait on this stuff.

And just lynch JDodge, who needs to die.

[mneme]

So, it's majority +1 is it? And mneme just posted a few posts up.

I'd guess it's majority. Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19). That means, if we don't have funky powers messing with the majority threshold directly (ew, why) that there are two extra votes in the game.

FOS: Shamba

As the man said, stop rolefishing. I do not want to know who controlls Belgarion at this time; at best he should drop breadcrumbs so he can pick them up when him or his alt die. The only reason, berift of suspicion, for him to reveal all is so your mafia buddies can have a better choice of targets. Also, you're defending your buddy Jdodge too hard; as much as I like the idea of a two-fer, you're making it far too easy.

Death recruiter is certainly possible (in fact, the possiblity is the only reason a resurectionist isn't pretty much broken), but the indication is that Twomz's rez is due to the yellow shirt. That said, I expect Twomz to drop dead again tonight; unless he was resurected by the mafia, he's simply far too valuable (as a confirmed doc) not to kill, and it's unlikely that MoS put -too- many docs in the game.

Also, your argument for why the mafia wouldn't kill Nocmen is garbage. Both his believed role and the common wisdom re post restrictions would point to him having a useful, and probabily information-based, power. If anything, it requires chutzpah, without any evidence aside from a claim, suggest that dead protown + no other deaths + confirmation of killer of dead protown has ANYTHING other as a simplest explaination than "killer = mafia".

CKD, Oman puportedly gets +.25 of a vote for each QFT, maxing out at +2 votes. He got QFT-spammed today (by Belgarion, mostly), so he presumably gets 3 votes tomorrow. I'll note that Oman's role is more or less broken as mafia (it lets the mafia win from 5/2 town/mafia if QFT-spamming works and the town doesn't have double voters or night kills!). so I'd count him as near confirmed if he can prove his claim. (that said, could be a kill-optional SK, or maybe mafia can't QFT, only town). Plus, of course, more multi-votes than we've seen claimed would balance this out to a degree.

[mneme]

Which means at a minimum, we have 18 votes (possibly 19)

Again, the players I "killed" (myself and tss) do not appear on the still living list, but we are, in fact, still alive - those are the votes you're missing.

There are only 15 players on the living list. I was assuming you were the remaining player, and forgot about TSS. But that only gets us to 17; which still leaves us one vote short.

Well for one thing, I think it's pretty clear I

do

suspect him: I am, you know, voting him.

Noticed. Find some buddies and you can argue your force with more, well force. Me, I'd rather leave the single player mason alone for the moment and give our (probably doomed) doctor a smaller choice of targets to defend. In general, masons shouldn't come out without a good argument; one player ain't it. Anyway, I suspect one can easily figure out who Belgarion is the alter of by looking at who started posting again near when he did.

For another, it was not fishing: I was pretty explicit that I wanted him to reveal his role.

You started with fishing. You then got more explicit.

The arguments against him are fundamentally flawed, and I hate craplogic. If I disagree with something, I will say it. (As a sidenote, I tihnk the way you get me to repeat my defence of Jdodge and the accuse me of defending him too hard is disingenuous at best.)

Repeating a bad defense just looks more scummy, not more genuine.

Ok, well there are two points here. First, you claim that scum would kill Nocmen because he had a pr, second, you state that because there was only one kill and that kill was town, it was a mafia kill.

That last bit is the usual case, yes. I don't have any info that makes me think it's untrue, do you?

Moreover, your argument relies on the assumption that the arguments of a very small number of very loud people against Nocmen were likely to be effective. Since it -was- a very small number of people, that seems disingenous.

be anything from double voter to unkillable, and it certainly doesn't mean anything where the setup was not designed by a single mod with full power over balance/role design.

Actually, looking at the roles chosen compared to submision claims, I'll challenge that last bit. There was a single mod who had full power over balance/role design. The fact that MoS farmed out a lot of the brainstorming to us doesn't change the fact that he clearly spent a lot of time and attention making sure the roles were reasonably balanced and playable once assigned.

Your conclusion doesn't even follow from this assumption, though. Say player x claims cop. However, he has been acting scummy all game

Please leave your straw man in Oz -- Nocmen wasn't even a little scummy; instead, there were a few specific scummy people who wanted to lynch him because he had a post restriction. They might have assumed they'd have better success on later days...but they might as easily have assumed that their ploy had failed and would fail.

I don't really understand JDodge's claimed day/night reversal. Does anyone? Does JDodge? Without knowing how it works, it's impossible to know how useful it is and whether it in itself is worthwhile beyond proving his role. Assuming everything is secret that usually is, it does what? Turn night-cops into day-cops, mafia into day-discussing scum with a daykill, etc; just reversing night and day timing? Beyond making it slightly more likely that cops will be able to talk even if kill-targetted (ie, they may be able to race with day-killing scum and win), I fail to see how this benefits the town significantly.

If the scum missed their kill, I'd have expected to see a strong attack on at least one player who wasn't Jdodge. (OTOH, there's a lot of WIFOM there, so hey).

I want confirmation of his role as soon as possible, as people qfted him yesterday and he suddenly came up with an explanation today of why it didn't give him any votes.

Agreed. His role doesn't confirm alignment, but it is indicative, so it's very useful to confirm (or, you know, not).

[mneme]

We've had one kill per night. What missing kill?

Well, we know that there was an SK, and that there's a mafia, which makes two right there.

One. Yes, there's a missing kills from night 1, though we had a living doc then.

No missing kills from last night unless JDodge is telling the truth about his role.

[mneme]

I'm inclined to lynch Sir T because while JDodge -might- be lying, Sir T is certainly lying, ne?

Unless the ability was "in a night you die, anyone who targeted you" (gains this post restriction), I don't see it.

onegai, Sir T, can you elucidate? Was there a reason Nocmen's fake death looked exactly like Shanba's?

[mneme]

FOS: Kison

Sir T has explained sufficiently for me, at least, and his not-really-a-roleclaim is very confirmable. Doesn't mean he's not -also- scum, of course. (note: as stated, it's pretty likely scum, as well as town, can figure out what the ability is, more or less).

(also, "restriction adheres to everyone who targets you when you die" is much more comfortalbe than "restriction just affects your killer(s)).

I'm still not seeing how JDodge's role can be at all useful to us (ie, the town).

[mneme]

Since it's as out in the open as it can be... so, that's "target player A, player B::copy whatever player A's (targetted?) ability did onto player B?"

A nicely designed power, if so.

[mneme]

I could see the fake death with a bunch of uses, if it had been used a bit more carefully.

The way it was actually (tried to be) used was just to get a bit if extra info.

In theory, Shamba could have used it to "hide" from the scum if he kept the mask up for a few days, possibly hiding some other players with him (but that could backfire if one of them is scum). More realistic death notes could help there too.

As it was, it's mostly a flavor ability, though.

[mneme]

Twomz: yeah, but wouldn't it be cool? Given people being confirmed as town, he could have "killed" them as well (works much better if the target knows they're still alive, but I'd guess they have to, or certain things can break); if the scum didn't target them as well, they'd also be effectively masked until it was time for a big pro-town mob to take over.

Of course, the vote counts would show something was odd (and eventually some people would have to go visible or people couldn't be lynched), but it would still be pretty effective.

[mneme]

TSS: Shamba writes the deathline, according to his claim.

Jedi: you're either not reading the thread, or you're scum with Jdodge. Also, your supposition makes no sense at all -- Shamba has used his power twice, and the first time was clearly a mafia kill.

Obviously, Shamba isn't confirmed, particularly given the fairly frivilous use of his powers. But there's no reason to think he's scum, either.

[mneme]

Eh. You don't have to reread that much to get a handle on the basics -- or on the first post...

First night, Shanba fakedeathed TSS, submitting something like "Mafia Scumbag, Mafia, vanishes into the void" None of that is real, he made it up. There was also a mafia kill that night -- Twomz. Clearly, the mafia wasn't giving up its kill for Shanba's power, since there was an antitown kill then.

Night 2, Shanba targetted himself, using "Psychotic Player List, Town, killed" (role, align, mode of death). But it was copied, so Nocmen got it too. There was also a kill that night, by JDodge -- this was likely either the mafia kill, but in the unlikely event that JDodge is telling the truth, it would have been a vig kill.

[mneme]

Long? It's day 3... I'm running a normal with 80 pages (admittedly, it's day 7).

CKD: Sir Tornado's ability is to copy night actions. He's claimed copying it. Shanba's role just spits out a fake death -- we KNOW it doesn't save people from kills, because it didn't save Nocmen, who was the dupe target last night and also the kill target of Jdodge (or Jdodge/mafia).

Jedi: Ok, forgotten. Well, ok, not actually forgotten, but you know what I mean. I'm not going to speak for Shamba, but I'd guess that copying the fakedeath was an easy way for him to both confirm shamba's role and his own, while not risking an accidental kill. And yes, random targetting night 2 is very much the norm on pretty much everything but protown kill abilities (and there's a "standard" random target for redirectors and copy abilities anyway, even though/especially because those can kill).

[mneme]

I don't think that's it. -any- killer that isn't proven scum is a "potential vig" and JDodge being a full vig would predicate him having lied.

I think the reason for the lack of traction for the JDodge bandwagon is because he's claimed an interesting, provable ability.

The thing is, First, I expect scum in this game to have interesting abilities -- after all, this is Designer! Second, with JDodge's interesting, provable ability having more or less no ability to help the town, and a possible ability to hurt us (day actions = immediate actions = bypass doc and copy abilities unless those using the abilities win the race!). So while I can understand while some people are going easy on JDdoge, I certainly don't agree.

[mneme]

Therefore, a request:
Summarise the game in a fairly short post.

No. Do your own homework.

Or, you know, vote last night's only killer...

[mneme]

Also, as I almost forgot, I am selling tickets for a local Renaissance fair! Please quote this if you want to buy a ticket! I assure you I can help you if you help me! If we all go the fair, we can all enjoy the Renaissance!!!!!!

'k

Anyone who claims that JDodge "could still be town" at this point is dancing on the edge of Occam's razor and hoping it won't cut them.

[mneme]

??

Thyroid's ability, as stated, was clearly best used on night 1 -- that gives the town an immeasurable advantage, avoids the possiblity of him getting killed off early, gives town investigative abilities a free ride for a night, etc. Similarly, I could easily see reasons why a reveal would be harmful (though I'd have revealed after the pushback were I him and were there nothing more to the role) -- it would let scum stay home rather than risking a tracker when there was nothing to gain.

[mneme]

If the majority buys the tickets, all scum actions will be blocked the next night. I don't know if this includes the mafiakill.

"I don't know if this includes the mafiakill" is either a code for "I'm hedging and faking my role" or "it says 'scum actions' and I haven't asked the mod". If the latter, please do -- the role as described is much less potent if it doesn't block the mafia kill, and mafia kills are definitely actions. I'm guessing the latter, fwiw (or I woudln't have bought a ticket).

[mneme]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Why is jdodge not dead yet.[/quote]

QFFT

[mneme]

You do that via teh quoting, tss.

[mneme]

ckd: I figured I could compass it if I cared to, given "bel"'s claim and the fact that there had obviously been a replacement, but since the role seemed likely to be pro-town, I wasn't going to worry about it.

[mneme]

FOS: ZONEACE

Are you even reading this game?

[mneme]

stark: yes, please hammer. Jdodge must die.

[mneme]

FWIW, if thyroid doesn't have enough tickets, I'm happy to hold off the lynch until he does.

Thyroid, can we have a ticket count? How close are we?

unvote

to make it more likely that we can go to the Rennfaire tonight. Will revote as needed.

[mneme]

armix: I could be wrong, but my guess is that if Shamba were mafia, -someone- in his group would have told him how to use his role properly (and they would have likely used it to simply -slaughter- the town).

The thing is, the role as described is basically broken for mafia -- if you have friends who you know are allied with you, you never reveal your role; instead, you just cover-over the entire mafia and take over. (it's probably broken for masons, too, but there's at least a higher chance of a double-kill clueing the mafia in)

The problem with your idea is that the role only really works as long as your target plays along. So the mafia never get an advantage by using it on townies -- a fake deathscene is posted, the person says "I'm not ded! I was only sleeping!" and the game goes on, -maybe- with a lynching that people quickly realize was based on faked role results.

So I consider the odds of Shamba being mafia to be very close to zero at this point. He could be an SK, of course -- that would suit his use of the ability as an "information" attempt that didn't net much info, and not seeing the possiblity of hiding townies. But I think it's more likely that he's town, frankly.

I await your case against me tomorrow with baited breath.

[mneme]

damn it. Bated. Bated!

[mneme]

Hmm. No kills. Thyroid, did your ability go off?

[mneme]

Twomz, did you get the same info re your rebirth?

A temporary protown (or antitown) reanimator would certainly be a new-enough role.

[mneme]

Not seeing it. All he seems to be saying is that as far as he knows, he's complying with his PR.

Much more interesting is Sir T extant PR.

Nocmen, how does your poison pill PR work?

[mneme]

ckd: er, what? I don't see how any of this is even worthy of note.

Nocmen was protown and had a PR before he died. He presumably complied with his PR then -- meeping when he wanted to get more people to say his name, not meeping when he figured it wouldn't get him modkilled or when he thought he had his name said enough for him to post. Regardless, one presumes the player hasn't had a brain transplant -- he's still able to evaluate his post restriction, and still remembers what it was.

Since he was reluctant to talk about this PR before he died (but occasionally did so anyway), I can't see how that would have changed now.

Regardless, he was clearly meeping more often than he needed to earlier -- probably because people saying his name gave him a power of some sort. If he's not doing so now, I'm guessing he has enough names, or doesn't have the power any more.

As I said, though, MUCH more interested in Sir T's OTHing.

[mneme]

Thyro, please confirm whether your role happened last night. It is One Shot, right?

Armix is very funny. Also, probably scum. May go into why after we kill his buddy armix.

[mneme]

TSS: Yeah. EDBP:


Armix is very funny. Also, probably scum. May go into why after we lynch his buddy, ZONEACE.

[mneme]

ZONE: Hot damn, you're right.

vote: ZONEACE

I'm actually beginning to think that Armix is a bigger priority than you are; ssf was quite scummy, and his out of the blue targeting of me makes me think he may have tried to kill me last night. But his comment re you feels bus-y to me, and your overall pattern re people whose alignment is known involved attacks on town and defense of scum.

FWIW, I'm beginning to like Thyroid a fair bit less than I did initially. Still not that high on my radar, but dude; you don't know if your ability went off and aren't bothering to find out? What's up with that?

[mneme]

Ah, right, Armlx promised a case against me yesterday. Fair enough, and explains a bit why the case is dated. Less out of the blue then, and deserves more of a response, though I still think there's a high probability that armlx is scum.

Also, my involvement in both JDodge and schism lynches might make one think I'm town. Oddly enough, I am.

I'm more interested in a mneme lynch. Don't have time for a full case (see sig), but highlights include attacking shiz but not voting till critical mass was attained, post 32 seeming really forced,

Er, post 32 is your (SSF's) post. DId you have a different number in mind?

Also, the scum pattern is to attack, but not vote TOWN until critical mass is attained. The typical bus pattern is to vote, but not heavily attack your buddies -- unless you really need to throw them under the bus, that is. Regardless, the actual pattern re me and schtiz is that I attacked the group trying to scapegoat thyroid. Including you, for a while. (hmm. As long as I'm in the archives, the bus in 244 is really funny, in retrospect).

But oddly enough, this just isn't true.

I first attacked Shitz in post 559 -- right after he fished Nocmen's role out. Oddly enough, I voted him in that post too.

defending reasonless votes, opposing breaking PR's

Oddly enough, the PR I thought was believable turned out to be a town PR (Nocmen), and going after people trying to "break" it outed two scum. How'd that happen?

I covered "reasonless" votes adequately in 151. Votes are votes, arguments are arguments. Both are useful tools to scumhunting or to the scum's goal of their side winning. Play the game, not some childish metagame where you whine about votes "without a reason".

wavering on those trying to kill thyroid (specifically, on which was most vulnerable is my take on it)

How do you differ from thinking the thyroid BW (as was the Nocmen BW) was scummy as hell and varying which member I thought was most scummy. Keep in mind that I jumped off, and later back on the foolinc BW, based on behavior.

[mneme]

Pressure = not so interesting, but I'd like a prod, yes.

[mneme]

unvote
vote: The Silent Speaker

You claimed that Oman posted today. Actually, at least if my search was accurate, he didn't; his last post was yesterday.

This raises the possiblity that he was silenced today -- which would explain the Mod's nonresponsiveness on the subject and put some suspission on your push for his bandwagon and your claim that he's spoken today.

[mneme]

ckd: I was never voting for Oman. Say what?

Ah, -there- it is. Missed it in the first search.

Oman's Post Today

So unless he was day-silenced, yes, he's presumably dropped out.

unvote

[mneme]

ckd: I'm factoring in my own voter bias. I -always- find Oman scummy, so while I (a) find him scummy, and (b) find it suspicious that he dropped out of sight when asked to prove his role, I'm not convinced that that makes him the best lynch today yet.

What purpose do adding more votes to his bandwagon get us ATM? Encouraging the player to surface or trying to quicklynch him?

[mneme]

I'll note that Oman's role is more or less broken as mafia (it lets the mafia win from 5/2 town/mafia if QFT-spamming works and the town doesn't have double voters or night kills!).

Just a quick point- the multivote stops working at all when there are five or fewer players left living.

Is it per QFT or per different player QFTing? (ie, does spamming work?)

But yes, if it stops working given 5 living players, as a mafia role, it lets the mafia potentially control the vote given 3 living mafia (lets them win an 11/3 going into night, assuming they can spam), but not given 2 living mafia and no extra kills.

Why would I do that? I'm not Oman, and being able to think like him is not an ability I'm particularly keen on acquiring.

True. Can you give your own opinion on, say, Kali?

[mneme]

Hmm. Shanba, you may have a point about stark.

[mneme]

TSS's offer was kinda dumb.

OTOH, TSS's "don't lynch these" was a quite good summation of who's anti-linked to our scumgroup in one fashion or another, aside from his inclusion of himself onto it.

So no, not feeling the TSS BW -- not even a little bit.

Also, I'll be suspicious of the resurected until they stop growing and/or some of them start dropping dead of their own accord. But that's a later-day question.

For today, I'm happy to lynch ZONEACE. Or Kison.

[mneme]

Again, Thyroid's ability supposedly blocked all scum night actions from going through.

What makes you think Thyroid's ability activated?

Ticket buyers on day 3:

Kison
armlx
the silent speaker
mneme
Shanba

# of People alive on day 3:

17.

So unless the buys of the four people who bought tickts on previous days and did -not- buy a ticket on day 3 count, Thyroid's ability didn't trigger on night 3.

[mneme]

So, we wanna lynch someone? The list of people not to lynch is pretty clear, but it seems like we've stalled up.

[mneme]

armlx: don't buy it. Aside from his self-inclusion, his list was very obvious. I'd rather lynch people based on behavior when we were catching scum.

[mneme]

Stark? SSF352 ? Zoneace?

SSF352 is a great choice:

Why is my name first on the list?

I'm a member of the Don't Lynch JDodge Club, by the way. I'd rather lynch liars than potential Vigs

Zoneace is good too:

I'd rather lynch liars than potential Vigs

I have to agree with this, quite effusively.

stark also defended JDodge:

I'm here, man, no need to be prodded. I'm with UA and Zoneace. And although, correct me if I understand this wrong, Jdodge's vig powers are used up, his other power could be really useful, even if it doesn't confirm anything.

Let's lynch one of those three -- defending obvscum is always lynchable, particularly when (unlike Oman, who also defended Jdodge), you haven't shown a role ability.

unvote
vote: SSF352

[mneme]

What was really funny here, btw, is that I listed the first names that came to mind, and then searched the thread for people defending Jdodge during that day...and those names just Popped Out. Funny how that works.

[mneme]

armlx: as in, you think stark is most scummy of the three? I could lynch any of them, personally. UA did attack schitz, though that could easily have been bussing.

Re TSS, my searching did uncover his explaination for (I think) everyone he's put in the "don't lynch these" for non-role reasons, in post 1533 (on April 9th). So it's not that he didn't explain; he just explained a month earlier and didn't repeat the explanation.

[mneme]

Actually, no. Shanba, please fake -my- death as "vile mafia fiend, mafia".

[mneme]

Explain why you and mneme are on there then. Which you have refused to do multiple times.

Er, what? Are you even reading the thread? TSS explained half his list in early April! And I mentioned this on what? Friday?

Stark: only TSS ascribes mystical properties to The List. :)

Thyroid/Simenon: Er, right. This isn't really a surprise to me. So how many tickets do you need? 9, because that's more than half the town? 8? Not liking this much.

Stark: yes, your rereading and switching eventually is one reason I'm not voting you first of my least favorite people.

[mneme]

tss: I hope you're not treating JDodge's lynching order as at all significant -- a few people temporarily jumped the bandwagon to give time for thryroid to collect tickets.

Speaking of which, I've been agonizing over this on the last couple of days, but

unvote. Vote: Simenon

. Lynch All Liars.

While there are a whole bunch of reasons to believe Simenon pro-town (might have blocked all scum actions last night, might have (accidentally) killed scum by crowning shanba), and several reasons to believe him scum (crappy play, not very involved with lynching scum, liar, fuzzy behavior), all of that is irrelevant to me for this one lynch. Simenon lied about his role, was prodded about it, and eventualy came out as a liar, and while I hold no animosity for it, that kind of behavior

as town

is exactly what the Lynch All Liars meme was intended to counteract. The fact that he might very well be lying scum does help, as does the fact that we look to have breathing room for a mislynch, but in general, as policy, I think we have to (and I'm certainly compelled to) lynch him.

[mneme]

armix, I fail to see how this is in any way an exception. Also, if LAL has fallen into disuse, it's only because a lot of people have stopped playing -- it's certainly part of -my- meta.

[mneme]

armlx: there are, in fact, some good reasons to believe he's town. There are -also- reasons to lynch him, but I'm willing to be shouted down on this in the name of being able to play the game.

unvote

TOTALLY not feeling the TSS wagon -- it seems to be entirely based on a few forcing plays today, completely discounting his play at any point prior to today. Isn't this game about lynching scum? I forget. It also appears to be based on one post while ignoring a post a month ago where he explained the "questionable" entries on his "list".

unvote
vote: SSF352

[mneme]

PBug: Oh, it's never "town don't ever lie" -- there are times it's correct to lie as town even in an iron LAL meta. But it's a "people don't survive getting -caught- lying" meta; when I lie as town, I expect to take that secret to the end of the game with me; a lie I tell and have to go back on later is one that in other circumstances, I could have told as scum.

[mneme]

TSS explain why Noc is "unstable" and what that means.

Seconded.

I'm actually less concerned about a "death cult" with tss getting bandwagoned by the two resurected. (well, hammer threat from twomz and vote from nocmen).

[mneme]

Jedi: er, is it? The two people resurected were the only two non-scum who've died.

The only reason to think the shirts have something to do with resurrection is the fact that they were mentioned in the death scenes and the res scenes.

[mneme]

Note: If TSS does turn up resurrector, the aforementioned death cult theory about the shirts is probably right.

FOS: armlx

Trying to figure out how many of our power roles you can convince us to hang?

Because if TSS is lynched (bad idea, with a claim of resurector -- he's either mafia or he -is- a resurector, or the mafia will -kill- him...and I don't think he's mafia), and turns up resurector, then there -obviously- isn't a death cult thing with the shirts; because a death cult would mean that the dead people were coming back to life for two entirely separate reasons.

FWIW, I never really bought the idea that the colored shirts were bringing people back -- colored gifts usually indicate a set of -different- abilities that are handed out; and coming back from the dead is one ability. So while it's a conincidence (or not) that everyone who's town and has died recieved a shirt first (not a huge coincidence; it means Jedi and the mafia were playing from the same playbook, which almost makes sense), it's not surprising that someone else is responsible for the resurections (and if the shirts are one-use abilities, it's not surprising that they show up on death).

OTOH, if the shirts -do- give one-use abilities, I'd kinda expect the recipients to know about them -- so maybe not.

[mneme]

The setting up lynches isn't great, but the stuff surrounding TSS is still complicated enough that I don't want to touch it.

Is there any reason -not- to lynch SSF352? Seems like (like a few other people) he's successfully hiding under the radar by total lurking.

[mneme]

The shirt=scum thing is insteresting, mostly the supposition that shirts weren't given out last night.

I think it's clear that Jediknight isn't killing people -- we -know- who killed Nocmen, and it wasn't Jedi; it was JDodge. It might -also- have been Sir T (it's still quite bothersome to me that Sir T had a PR when he'd "fakekilled" Nocmen and that it stuck around for an extra day (Sir T? You still got a PR?), but I'd just "that's just how it works".

Oh, and TSS is quite correct. Kalidescope is obviously not mafia. Impossible.

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I designed the Grim role carried by nocmen. The one who kills the Grim is forced to say OH THE HORROR! each time he posts.[/quote]

I find it rather suspicious that several people questioned Kscope's townishness rather than doing their own damned research.

Re Shanba: He could be a CR. But I've already explained why he's not mafia; in fact, we have two good reasons: 1. He executed mafia. 2. If he were mafia, he'd have been much more likely to think of using his ability as a screen, and would have had players to discuss the subject with.

I'm not interested in Kscope being targetted by Shamba because Kscope is probably the most pro-town player we have -- and I don't trust that Shamba's ability isn't actually a kill which leaves the player around in an altered form. (this could even be the case if Shamba didn't know about it -- though he'd probably know once he "killed" himself, as he did). But if Shamba's kill isn't more than we think it is, why does Sir T take a penalty for "killing" Nocmen?

[mneme]

armlx: killing a buddy that isn't showing major scumsigns isn't a great way to win at mafia. But you're right, I'd misremembered.

That said, I still think that 1. the role is insanely overpowered as mafia and 2. if he were mafia, -someone- on his team would have figured out how to break the role.

That doesn't mean he's not scum, of course -- particularly since there wasn't a fake kill last night, either.

[mneme]

Armlx: er, no, they're not. Did you actually check the list to see before you asked?

The extra votes are a clue -- but without Shamba or the "dead" people revealing, there'd be no way to know for sure what was going on.

[mneme]

armlx: exactly so. This is why I don't want Shamba shooting anyone that's proven town -- if it's actually a recruit, that's BAD! This is also why theories about it as a millerizing role don't help much.

I'd prefer to lynch 252, but I could get behind a shamba lynch on the "useless power, might be a recruiter" front--if he comes up town, TSS can just res him anyway and we don't lose a useful power tonight.

[mneme]

I agree that shamba's the play, for reasons already discussed.

unvote
vote: shamba

[mneme]

Unvote

Vote : Shanba

Donate him that extra n in your name and you get it right.

Extra? You do know the leading m is mostly silent, right?

[mneme]

Shirts: No idea. Good question. 'course, could mean jediknight is lying; don't want to discount that possiblity entirely.

I'm back to my old list. SSF352, ZONEACE, stark.

vote: SSF352

[mneme]

Simenon: sure, why not?

[mneme]

stark: the reason a zombie cult is a possibility is because the resurrections we've seen -- i.e., apparently unlimited resurrections (even if only of nightkills) is typically an overpowered ability for town to have.

That said, I can't get behind the Starkwagon at this point. Sure, his pattern has been quite scummy -- but we've also got an innocent investigation on him (from twomz). And if twomz is zombie cult, he's not mafia, whereas Stark is unlikely to be cult -- he's never died, and if there's a cult recruiter, it's presumably the resurrectionist (ie, tss).

So while it's certainly possible that stark is scum, I don't think he's the lynch for today, particularly with our other scummy people from previous days on his bandwagon.

[mneme]

Ok, Twomz. I'd vaguely remembered someone claiming an innocent result on stark today; if not, the point is void.

Also, see v/la thread.

[mneme]

Nocmen: Used it to "look townie", nothing; he flat out took out JDodge; cut his legs out from under him, by explaining how the "Grim" part of your role worked.

[mneme]

ckd: I can name a few things that tss has done that are protown: brought back dead townies, helped lynch scum, defended obvtown players.

[mneme]

I don't see any reason not to lynch Nonny and save SSF for tomorrow.
(not a vote for nonny only because I want to give at least a -little- time before I hammer).

I'm also not all that interested in a massclaim today.

[mneme]

I guess I'm good with a Zoneace/SSF claim if everyone is going to come to the consensus that Nocmen will vig him at night if his claim isn't pro-town enough, but otherwise all claims would do is give the mafia perfect information.

QFT

[mneme]

Twomz: Yes, I've been in games where recruits get to keep their powers. Actually, I think it's the usual case.

Nocmen, don't kill confirmed protown, plz. And yes, we did have an example of the shirts doing something -- at least one player got an investigation from one.

vote: SSF352

(for obvious reasons).

[mneme]

FWIW, I'm not going to do a full claim today. There's -no- benefit to the town for me doing so, and potentially a significant penalty. I can do a half-claim if people want me to.

Re Fonz: Oman already explained how his ability wouldn't be completely broken in the hands of scum--if he's telling the truth, it turns off when the town gets down to 5 players. Of course, if he's scum, he could be lying, but then why would he lie up a way that the ability would be more believably scum-controlled? That said, we've got a -lot- of very powerful abilities in this game, so I don't think a scum multivoter is entirely beyond the bounds -- after all, with a resurectionist, an inventor, a puppetmaster, a death tracker/vig/cop, a copier, and a cop+doc on the town's side, what can one give the scum to b alance this?

I'm happy with either fonz or ssf as lynch targets, though my vote stays on ssf for the moment.

[mneme]

I don't normally play on weekendss, but since I did promise you guys a half claim and then vanished on Friday, I'll make an exception.

He has been consistently vague in regards to his claiming, and on top of that, he is willing to vote for SSF, who has been doing the exact same thing he has been doing.

*laugh* Yes, based on our records, I'm clearly identical to SSF. It's like we're twins. (not so much) Do you think I'm voting for SSF because he's -unclaimed-? I'm voting for him because of his record, which is even worse than yours.

Anyway, half-claim: I have no active (targetting, other decisions) abilities. Also, I cannot be lynched. So fear isn't the issue here, aside from "fear of the town wasting its time confirming my ability, or worse, wasting multiple days."

[mneme]

Also, I somewhat doubt Zone's claim -- I haven't confirmed with the mod one way or another, but I find it somewhat doubtful that (since I -cannnt- be lynched; lynches on me count as "no lynch") that I'd be in the pool of candidates for a "random lyncher." Seems like a bit too much of a random screw.

[mneme]

Hmm. Debated doing a (mostly) full claim, but I think I have to.

I can't be killed, targeted, or lynched. I can only win if the town wins -- but my win requires another condition as well (but I'm not going to state that or even hint at it unless I have a good reason -- and I don't; it just opens up the possibility of someone spitefully denying me my shared win as I selflessly work toward ensuring the town (and my own) win).

I didn't want to claim because every kill attempt on me is a wasted kill, but it's not unlikely that they already know this -- I'd guess that the second night of no-kill was because the mafia tried to kill me, which was why I took armlx's targeting of me day 4 as a possible scum indicator before I realized he'd promised a case on me the previous day.

I believe there was an investigation on me that failed earlier -- that would be because of my targeting protection.

Now all this said...does anyone think we have too many claimed protect roles? I mean, we have my self-protect, Doc Senses' known protect+investigate, Fonz's claimed unreliable self-protect, ckd/bel's two lives, sir t's copy ability (which is more or less garunteed to turn into another doc or a supervig at some point during the game), simenon's one-night all-protect and one-night all-fail, and now armlx and stark's claimed abilities?

unvote
vote: armlx

Occam says: disbelieve the most complicated role. I say: armlx and stark are most likely gambitting, and if armlx is telling the truth, we don't lose that much from lynching him.

re me/Zone: yes, it's entirely possible that we're both telling the truth. The mod's answer when I asked him over the weekend was to firmly refuse to give useful info (ok, he did say that I prevent a scum win at 3 town + me + 3 scum, which one reading of my PM would indicate I didn't, but he didn't give useful info on me + lyncher aside from a lack of an answer), which I take it means that it's concievable that a random lyncher could get stuck with me for a day's target, if one were in the game. But I wouldn't worry about giving Zone a win by lynching me; I -can't- be lynched, so I'm pretty sure that means he wouldn't win if we nolynched by lynching me. I'm not completely opposed to this ("lynching" me is worse than lynching scum, but better than a no-lynch and probably better than a mislynch), but since I think the massclaim has given us some places (which oddly enough, matched our previous places) to look for scum, so I'd rather do that.

[mneme]

Oh, re submitted roles, I've seen no evidence that either of mine were used. Though one of mine was unkillable, so it might have been worked into my own role.

[mneme]

I didn't want to claim because every kill attempt on me is a wasted kill, but it's not unlikely that they already know this -- I'd guess that the second night of no-kill was because the mafia tried to kill me, which was why I took armlx's targeting of me day 4 as a possible scum indicator before I realized he'd promised a case on me the previous day.

Just to clarify, yes, I know Night 3 was the first night of no-kill -- but armlx's attack was before thyroid/Simenon revealed that he had, in fact, blocked scum actions that night.

[mneme]

unvote

Kalie, your vouching I'll accept.

[mneme]

mneme, I dislike strongly how others are claiming but in retrospect you still have not, as you say it is a mostly full claim.

I'm comfortable with this.

armlx's and stark's powers worry me the most, they both seem very, very strong. And with this many powers for the town, I could see them being scum to balance them out. Also, anyone claim to making either role?

While that was my inclination, Kali vouching for their roles does swing things in the other direction -- though, of course, they could have had their alignment switched.

[mneme]

armlx: lynching me -will- end the day. As I said in my half-claim, lynching me counts as No Lynch.

So no, it's not 0 cost.

[mneme]

I'm not interested in Kali's claim if he doesn't want to claim -- he's town, and we have enough claims to pick an intelligent lynch.

SSF's claim is very believable. Almost makes me guilty for pushing his bandwagon for the past few days -- almost; that was terrible play, man.

I think we've got two pairs we need to start poking at -- Zone+SSF (zone backing up SSF's roleclaim) vs armix + stark (+kali, but kali only confirmed that he submitted a role like armix's claimed role, -not- that he submitted one like stark's somewhat unbelievable one).

Given this data, I can make a good lynch suggesting:

stark claimed a very silly role and that he knew armix's role (he did, more or less)
armix claimed his role
kali (town) claimed to create armix's role (but notably, NOT to have created stark's role, which is related to it)
SSF claimed a very believable Doc Brown, with investigation results.
Zone crossclaimed SSF's role (partial claim, claim, confirmation of extra details; requires considerable truth on both sides or they're scum working together)
SSF's role indicated likely lying from armix

Specifically, the least confirmed person in the mess is clearly stark. Stark seems unlikely to know armix's role unless he's telling the truth or they're working together. armix seems likely scum, but has had a role confirm from a known town, so he probably has some form of that role even if he is scum. Zone is known scum or neutral, and SSF has been very shifty, but claimed a believable role that's very unlikely to be false.

If Zone & SSF are scum together, they're playing a very unlikely gambit--enough so that I don't believe it. But if zone is scum, there's a much higher chance that SSF is scum and we should take that into account. OTOH, similarly, while armix has had his claim confirmed, if stark is scum, armix is probably also scum, forced into a role claim by stark's claim.

So we should lynch one of stark & zone. Neither are very valuable to the town as claimed, and stark is actively dangerous. Of the two pairs, I think stark+armix are more believable as mafia than Zone+SSF at the moment -- so we should lynch stark, and nocmen should then either vig armlx (if stark is lying) or Zone (if stark is telling the truth).

unvote
vote: Stark

[mneme]

I think Stark's clearly lying. That said, I can get behind a Zone lynch; fair amount of info there, even if it's "yes, he's exactly as he claims."

vote: Zoneace

[mneme]

Huh. Zoneace was a free lynch. Useful.

I'm up for testing; lynch me, vig stark?

[mneme]

vote: mneme

Seems like the plan.

Vig > inv for stark -- particularly given nocmen's not-entirely-confirmed alignment (tss is not confirmed, no, not for me, nor for anyone else that I know who hasn't been rezzed). He's just -so- scummy. I'd rather have definite info on his alignment, including deathscene, tomorrow rather than go in with just an investigation.

[mneme]

And stark, my -first- claim disclaimed active abilities. So no, aside from lynching scum, I don't do anything.

[mneme]

stark: 3 someones, right? Please keep your story straight. Not that I believe you.

[mneme]

Belgarion: I agree with you, but I'm happy to have him die at night so people can hedge (and if people really want to confirm my role, I can't but oblige).

[mneme]

tss: if you're actually a death cult leader, we're in potential trouble, as that means that Nocmen & twonz are actually mafia now, or working on a third side. But beyond that, yeah, the plan's pretty good.

I'd also like to move the game along...vote for me, I'll raze taxes?

[mneme]

Kscope does -not- investigate anyone. Kscope's "immortal townie" status is more valuable at this point, IMO, than his investigation.

[mneme]

I think it's fairly clear:

Stark was "Goop Mind" -- a role linked to professor Goop. This was how he knew about Armlx's role.

He was also cult -- probably a recruit, but given the way his role gave him a (mostly) safe claim, maybe not so much.

Armlx was "Professor Goop" -- a doctor (presumably), and not cult.

We've got enough blocking roles that I very much doubt we have 4 cultists. But yeah, we need to look among the unconfirmed for a recruiter.

Fonz seems an obvious choice; I'm growing less and less convinced that he's town, frankly, and he doesn't have any town-useful abilities.

[mneme]

That's a lynch.

Please -don't- kill Kali tonight -- it's not at all certain that we have the numbers to win without him, and killing a neutral doesn't really fit any side's goals at this point, particularly with three sides left.

[mneme]

Fonz: Trust me, scum or not, I'm not happy with Kison for dropping that fast hammer.

Nocmen: The problem is as a true neutral, Kali isn't -not- on the side of town either; he doesn't need to be gotten rid of for the town to win, so getting rid of more likely enemies of the town is a much better deal -- particularlly with what looks like two anti-town groups out there.

Now, if you don't believe Kali's claim of neutrality, that might be another matter -- but keep in mind that there was pretty much no reason, at the point when he claimed, for him to lie.

Actually, the best kill tonight is probably Kison -- given his hammer, he's almost certainly part of a scum group of one sort or another, and I don't really trust cop results at this point, certainly on scummy players. But a lot depends on Fonz's alignment.

[mneme]

Nocmen: fair enough; looks like his second claim was a big WIFOM.

It's interesting that there was apparently not a mafia kill last night. Did they try to kill me (again?) or something?

We really want to hit the cult leader today or tonight if we can. Most likely is...what, SSF352? Unless our cult leader was Kali -- Green Pucca = Green is the color of the cult?

[mneme]

Twomz: kison = scum?

[mneme]

Sir T: so it might be that the granted actions didn't work?

[mneme]

I believe I already brought this up, but I am fairly sure Goop Mind was the cult leader. Kaliedo's death scene involved goop that was mentioned quite a bit.

Actually, now that you mention it, one possible setup is a split cult -- Professor Goop is not cult, but anyone he "protects" becomes cult, whereas the "goop mind" is the cult leader, and knows (and can tell new cultists) about armlx being the unwitting recruiter. That would explain the goop->gm connection and the goop->possible cult connection.

[mneme]

Mneme, for the record, has your extra win condition already been filled? If not, is there anything the town needs to do to fulfill it?

An excellent question.

Since my extra win condition was that Kali be alive and un-culted in endgame...that would be a "no". I can't win right now, though I can help the town win.

Apparently, I do have an "instead" condition that I'll find out tonight. I also can't vote today.

[mneme]

I havent found the post yet, but I remember someone claiming to have created armlx's role, and that blocked one target, protected another, and then the third pick did nothing? What if the third pick was cult recruitment? If this is true, then we can look through Armlx's choices for possible recruits. What do you guys think?

That's kinda what I was thinking, yeah. It would at least make the goop->goop->goop connection make sense.

[mneme]

That said, I've searched through Armlx's posts, and didn't see a target claim.

[mneme]

Yep. Nocmen lied about having killed Kscope, but he was also unlynchable, and I couldn't vote that day anyway.

MoS, what was my third state if I successfully haunted Kison? Revenge + Immortal + I get to vote again?

I was -mostly- telling the truth on my role, of course (since I believed Kscope to be protown...which was, IIRC, how he started, though...what was up with that? What determined whether he was protown or neutral?)

[mneme]

Zoneace: oh, I don't know; you had something like the chance of winning that I did (if only because of the odds of Kalidescope getting gloped) and mor influence over it. If it weren't for that, I'd have had much better odds--all you needed was not to DIE before the town picked a target who you wanted to lynch anyway.

Mind, I'd never have told the truth with your role -- I mean, what's the percentage in it? Any more than I'd have told the full truth (and I didn't) with my role.

Simenon, Renn Fair Claim: I simultaneously want to kiss you and lynch you. I mean, it was really, really lynchable. OTOH, you had a provable protown role. And it was an -amazing- litmus test for players acting protown vs players acting antitown.

[mneme]

Zone: sure. But you, like everyone else trying to break the renn faire, were not protown.

[mneme]

MoS: It -wasn't- obvious that he was protown, but it was pretty obvious that his attackers were antitown. It's pretty hard to explain why--maybe because his claim was sufficiently out there that you had to end up going "why are you attacking that guy rather than hunting scum who, you know, -haven't- claimed a powerful protown ability they'll have to prove later? Shouldn't we see if scum try to kill him first?" But there's a difference between people probing at someone to try to figure out if they're scum by how they (and others) react, and people trying to get someone lynched because they think they're dangerous or because they think they can.

And by that measure, he felt protown (the enemy of my enemy...might be worth keeping around for a bit) -- when you get down to it, the reason he didn't get lynched when he claimed was that despite lying about his role, his -abilities- included exactly what he claimed (and then some). When you can demonstrate a powerful protown ability, it's pretty hard to get lynched.

[mneme]

Zone: not worth arguing one way or another -- I wasn't protown either, though I thought my interests aligned with the town for a long period of time (and they mostly did for most of the game, as I never knew my goals were antitown (except when I thought I wanted to kill vig nocmen, and I was wrong, I wanted to kill mafia nocmen and really wanted to kill mafia kison), and even on a theoretical level, I went protown->wants survivor to survive->wants cultist to survive->wants to lynch mafia).

Anyways, you're always antitown, even when you're the doc. (joke, really--though I don't remember ever getting a protown vibe on you, that's mostly my problem).

[mneme]

Zone: ok, sure, but how often are you in a winning town?

I'm not infrequently night killed, but I win with a lot of winning towns (in this case, I won with scum, however. Who knew?)