Open 44 - Twofold Mafia: GAME OVER! before 506

[TylerJ]

I plan on posting a complete analysis tommorow.

[MCHammer]

Major FoS: GroinHammer Another very scummy person. Overdefensive, thinking everyone is on him when, in reality no body is. He has also been ridiculously hoppy. Others have hopped more but GH has been more oppurtunistic with his bandwagon hopping. If Ckillor wasn't playing, he'd be my vote.

...strange, I thought I voted tyler on p7, which was at the point the 2nd vote on him - my vote hasn't switched since then. My only other vote in this game was against theo, which was an instinctive feeling that I had when joining the game. Bit weird that you've picked up where chronx left off on this, yet haven't heard anything more from chronx on the subject.

I'm also finding it strange that people are wagoning ckillor (for basically lurking), when we've heard so little from Jdodge & max - dodge has made a total of 11 posts, rarely posts more than 1 line of txt & has had two 6day gaps inbetween, max similar with 4 & 6 day gaps - ckillor, although maybe it is being argued that his posts lack the necessary gravity compared to the aforementioned, has made 10 posts (same as myself & max) with biggest gaps of 4 & 6 days. N.B. I'm not adding myself on there for WIFOM, but for completeness - it would be hypocritical if I did a complete post count on everyone but left myself out.

ckillor and TylerJ and Tyler smelled really scummy to me.

- was this intentional?

[PJ.]

I'm gonna try to reread tomorrow.

hey SSF, just so you know weekends are tough for me but I'll try to get some stuff in.

I don't think Tyler's arguement has helped is case. I feel like he has something to hide by playing overly defensive. For now,

Unvote, Vote:Tyler

I'll put it there to apply some pressure instead of having two people at 4, we can have 1 at 5 and 1 at 3. This will almost definently change after my reread, or if he get's to -1.

[MCHammer]

WTF! you've got to be joking!!!

This will almost definently change after my reread, or if he get's to -1

...so yr. vote isn't even a real/serious vote??!!?? You jump off the ckillor wagon 15 minutes after I question people a/b it & then imply that you don't necessarily agree with yr. own vote...which you yr.self have just switched!!!

Panzerjager - please explain.

[Rishi]

I did an isolated re-read on the top vote-getters: ckillor and TylerJ and Tyler smelled really scummy to me.

To respond to groinhammer...

I wrote this sentence too quickly. There should probably be a comma in it. Here's what I meant.

I did an isolated re-read on ckillor and TylerJ, the top vote-getters, and Tyler smelled really scummy to me.

[somestrangeflea]

Post Two Hundred and Fifty Five

TylerJ - 5 (Jdodge, groinhammer, Dasquian, Rishi, Panzerjager)
ckillor - 3 (Max, theopor_COD, TylerJ)
groinhammer - 1 (ChronX)

Not Voting - aioqwe, shaft.ed, ckillor

12 alive, 7 to lynch

[shaft.ed]

WTF! you've got to be joking!!!

This will almost definently change after my reread, or if he get's to -1

...so yr. vote isn't even a real/serious vote??!!?? You jump off the ckillor wagon 15 minutes after I question people a/b it & then imply that you don't necessarily agree with yr. own vote...which you yr.self have just switched!!!

Panzerjager - please explain.

Yes I am also surprised that Panzer would move his vote immediately after GH mentions the Ckillor wagon lacks merit. Also note this is pretty soon after Rishi has further 'elaborated' on his vote for TylerJ. By elaborated I mean Rishi said he thought TylerJ was scummy because he smelled really scummy.


And JDodge, are you and Max working together to accuse me of being scummy for nothing?

Really? You don't find shaft.ed suspicious at all?

While your attempt was much more subtle, its again an attack with no support. And both of you are lurking rather heavily. Either of you care to elaborate?

[Rishi]

. Also note this is pretty soon after Rishi has further 'elaborated' on his vote for TylerJ. By elaborated I mean Rishi said he thought TylerJ was scummy because he smelled really scummy.

I never claimed that this was an elaboration, just a clarification.

I already laid out my reasons why I think TylerJ is scummy. He likes to point fingers without giving much justification behind them. Also, he is leaving his options open by calling a bunch of people scummy, but barely listing anyone as a pro-town player.

[shaft.ed]

Sorry Rishi you're right I did twist your play a bit. That was meant more to point out that Panzer was molding his actions to the local 'consensus' than an attack on you.

[Max]

Unvote

I don't think ckillor is the right lynch at the moment. If he carries on with this behavior he might survive to Night 1 But it all depends at the moment Day 1 the day which dreams are made of.

[ChronX]

Hmm. Max, do you think that the TylerJ wagon has enough momentum now that it will result in a lynch, so you can take your vote off the alternate candidate, thus giving the TylerJ wagon a little more of a boost?

HoS with cherries on top: Max

I think the ckillor attempted wagon will bear close scrutiny when we look for scum on Day 2, notably the 2 who have recently bailed off.

[TylerJ]

Put me at five why don't you. Okay, so I am over defensive. But that could merely be a play style instead of scummy.

Rishi, when I point fingers, I justify them. If you disagree, show proof.
You have accused me without showing evidence. And why would I want to leave my options open? Views change, so I would careless if I had adressed earlier if I thought someone was scummy. I could care less If I left my options open because it makes no logical sense in my mind to do so.

As far as everyone voting me goes, give reasoning and evidence please. And none of this 'he seems scummy' stuff. You should have something that is actually provable and disprovable. Then, perhaps I can actually defend myself and perhaps clear my name.

[Rishi]

I told you what you could do to defend yourself, Tyler. I asked you to post a list of who you definitely thought was town. You only named ChronX and refused to give any more names. Still waiting on that "complete analysis" that you promised.

The fact is that you had been given chances. You just are not paying attention.

And if being defensive is your playstyle, I would suggest changing it in a hurry. Because being defensive will never reflect favorably on you.

[TylerJ]

And I have given you chances to provide evidence. I just got on the computer, so you will have to wait on the analysis.

As far as the playstyle, it's constantly developing. I know that overdefensiveness is harmful. But when people accuse me without evidence I get frustrated because I can't defend their accusations.

Tell me, if no one backs up their claims, what am I left with. Whats worth is that appearently people have fallen for those accusations and I am at five votes. Tell me, Why should I not be defensive and aggravated?

Please tell me! I'm all ears.

[Dasquian]

I understand your frustration but I do just find you scummy. What particularly caught my attention was post 154 and the small stretch after it:

Dasquian, I think that if I were actually mafia, I would be sure of myself, not unsure. Just a thought...

It seemed too knowing, too dismissive, too simplistic an explanation, and, as a classic "pure" WIFOM statement, not actually a defense anyway. After that you made an explicit but weakly-argued linking between ChronX and CA that further made you appear scummy.

You're asking for a solid, bombproof case to defend yourself against, and are lining yourself up to argue that the absence of a certain case means you shouldn't be being voted. Unfortunately at this stage of the game it's often the case that the common consensus of who's most scummy hasn't actually done anything "wrong" - they're just giving everyone a shifty impression. Such is the case now, from my point of view at least.

Hence I am happy to see you bandwagonned. With four scum in the game and you looking shiftier than most, I'm happy to see pressure on you, and I want to see how you will react. I want to see how you claim and how that will affect proceedings (it's not you alone who is on trial here, at least two people and possibly four want you lynched for the wrong reasons).

[Rishi]

I'll post some quotes later tonight if you want, but I think if you do a re-read on yourself, TylerJ, you'll see what everyone else finds scummy. Yes, you do give reasons for your votes, but they are often very short and not very well thought-out. Most of your "reasons" are one sentence.

You have been posting a lot of short little posts with little content and that tend to point fingers. And, once again, I asked you to do something specific (post a list of people who you think are town) and you refuse to do it once again. Every time I ask, you come up with some new excuse why you can't do it.

If you really are town, then it's time to start being helpful, even if you don't like the people asking you questions. If you can show that you're willing to play ball, then you'll find that you can ease the pressure on yourself and then maybe start pointing fingers at other people.

[ChronX]

PBPA of Rishi:

Random vote
Un-random vote when the pressure got on Dasq

If Dasq ever turns up scum, looks very suspicious, file away for future ref

Next few posts, gets into it with me over me wanting to move out of random stage.

Uses craplogic to convert me wanting to play and be done with random phase into me being overeager- to -lynch scum

Post 5, the bandwagon buddies joke.
Post 6, valid comment on the game setup.
Post 7, says he will pull the vote off me if I get other votes, otherwise it stays.
Post 8, metagame observation about JDodge, who I infer has had a conflict with Rishi in the past.
Post 9, weird
Post 10:

Why would you make that statement when you're one of the players who is standing out? It's hard to judge the alignment of the players who are standing out the most. I think each player has their own particular playstyle. I have noticed that some people, no matter if they are town or scum, they tend to lurk. Others will be loud no matter what.

"

This contradicts his persistence in going after TylerJ later in the game for "defensiveness".

Votes and unvotes Tyler based on misunderstanding/clarification.
Prodded.
Post 16, kind of admits to tunnelling, since he says he only reread 2 players who he finds scummy. Promises thoughts on other players after saying he finds it scummy that TylerJ finds people scummy.

duly noted

Next couple of posts argues with TylerJ. Asks him if ANYONE is protown.

TylerJ proceeds to say he finds me protown. Not good enough for Rishi

Next 2 posts, very sarcastic about TylerJ's answer.
Post 21, promises a read on more players "soon"
Post 22, contentless clarification
Post 23, contentless clarification
Post 24,

I told you what you could do to defend yourself, Tyler. I asked you to post a list of who you definitely thought was town. You only named ChronX and refused to give any more names. Still waiting on that "complete analysis" that you promised.

The fact is that you had been given chances. You just are not paying attention.

And if being defensive is your playstyle, I would suggest changing it in a hurry. Because being defensive will never reflect favorably on you

Continues to badger tylerJ for a list of protown suspects, when Rishi himself has not analyzed anyone other than me, TylerJ and by passing mention ckillor. Complains that he is still waiting for an analysis which TylerJ promised 4 hours AFTER Rishi's first promise of a more complete analysis, which we are still waiting for.

CONCLUSION: MajorFoS for tunnelvision, and hypocrisy: Rishi

[Rishi]

The re-read is coming. I apologize. It's really easy for me to just quickly type up a response to someone while I'm at work, but to actually sit down, do a thorough read on everyone, taking notes, etc., takes time - which I don't have at work. I will give you a 100% guarantee that I will make the re-read a priority tonight.

[shaft.ed]

I told you what you could do to defend yourself, Tyler. I asked you to post a list of who you definitely thought was town. You only named ChronX and refused to give any more names. Still waiting on that "complete analysis" that you promised.

The fact is that you had been given chances. You just are not paying attention.

And if being defensive is your playstyle, I would suggest changing it in a hurry. Because being defensive will never reflect favorably on you.

This looks like coaching to me.

Tell me, if no one backs up their claims, what am I left with. Whats worth is that appearently people have fallen for those accusations and I am at five votes. Tell me, Why should I not be defensive and aggravated?

If no one backs up their claims it's quite simple to call them on their BS. I really don't see why you're getting your panties in a tissy if the accusations against you are baseless.

So if Rishi's coaching wasn't enough here's a step by step simple approach.

1) Find people's accusations against you.
2) Examine their evidence
3) If evidence does not exist call them out for not having any evidence
4) If they do have evidence against you explain why your actions/statements were not scummy

I'm giving this advice because if TylerJ is town and he follows the plan above, we will avoid spending time trying to lynch a townie and possibly find scum associated with his bandwagon. If he is scum he will have weak arguments which will snowball against him and we can proceed beyond a bandwagon.

Note that this is not coaching in the way Rishi played it above with his "Do X and I will find you more townish" approach. I find this type of play a bit dubious.

[TylerJ]

JDodge- He’s usually inactive until he is pressured based on another game I’m in with him. So far I have nothing on him.
Theopor_COD- Posts little content and has given one vote with little reason. When he was called on, he seemed to give a reason, but whether it was his true reason or not remains to be seen.
Panzerjager- Just joined recently, seems to be svum hunting pretty well.
Tylerj- I’m me.
Dasquian – I don’t think he is an aggressive player, Although that could be because of his yellow avatar. But he does good scum hunting and provides good info.
Groinhammer- Not too active, don’t know what to think of him.
Aioqwe –Started off with little content, but started to pick up after the first few pages.
Rishi – I’ll be honest, I find Rishi aggravating. He started to vote for me because he thought I said something is scummy and then posted that something else was scummy consecutively. From what I see, he sometimes fishes for reasons to vote someone. These reasons seem to be weak and he doesn’t provide evidence when asked. This could all be a fruedian response to my agitation toward him, but I don’t know.
Max- Other than role fishing, drawing, and one-liners. He hasn’t contributed much
ChronX – Seems to be the most obvious town. Of course, I’m suspicious of those who seem to be the best townies, don’t know why. Nevertheless, I don’t think he is scum.
Shaft.ed – Aggressive, but strikes me as a townie
Ckillor –obvious lurker who seems more suspicious with every post he throws in.

[TylerJ]

Now while you were accusing me of not doing a write-up rishi, I was doing exactly that. I hadn't done it yet because I was tired last nigt, simple as that.

As far as the advice Shaft.ed. I'll take you up on it.

[theopor_COD]

Okay, so I am over defensive. But that could merely be a play style instead of scummy.

I love the old appeal to emotion.

[TylerJ]

That wasn't appeal to emotion.

Nice one-liner. Still your old self, lurking and coming back with one liners. really effective scum hunting.

[JDodge]

That wasn't appeal to emotion.

Nice one-liner. Still your old self, lurking and coming back with one liners. really effective scum hunting.

it could merely be a play style instead of scummy

[TylerJ]

Sheesh, I was only away for the weekend

FOS: TylerJ

for sounding scummy - he seems pointedly unsure of himself, though this of course could be genuine newbieness.

Can’t defend against gut feelings.

Dasquian, I think that if I were actually mafia, I would be sure of myself, not unsure. Just a thought...

You seem abit too aware of this so I'm not taking genuine newb-ness as real - think I could do worse than

unvote, vote: TylerJ

Trying to jump on a wagon perhaps. Still, gut feelings shouldn’t be used as sole evidence. Dasquain gave a simple FoS, you voted. If you had another reason for voting me, then perhaps I wouldn’t consider it bandwagoning.

I think it'll take some time for me to digest everything

based on what I read CA and Tyler seem the fishiest... I'll try and think about it tho...

Everyone still goes on the gut feelings huh?

CA you seem to defend Chronx multiple times. That's scummy. Perhaps you are partners in crime, eh?

Man, that's the second consecutive post where you labelled a certain kind of behavior "scummy." Is everything scummy in your eyes?

Unvote: ChronX

Vote: TylerJ

Is that worthy of a vote? Someone says, xyz is scummy, and they suddenly become scummy? Since when was this scumtell?

shaft.ed seems OK to me. TylerJ otoh comes across as the scummiest person right now.

Unvote Rishi, vote TylerJ

. I still think Rishi is slightly scummy, but that was several pages ago at the start of the non-random voting, so my reasons have been superceded by others. The vote's certainly not doing any good on its own.

groinhammer I don't see as being particularly scummy, but then I don't have a huge town read on him either. I don't think ChronX's complaints are fair; placing the second vote on a reasonable bandwagon candidate isn't scummy play in and of itself.

Why am I scummy? Sure, it is a long post, but you never gave your reasoning. Perhaps you don’t have a reason and are trying to disquise it with a long post.

I haven't had time to do a full re-read, but did an isolated read on a couple of people that other people have been finding suspicious, namely TylerJ and ckillor. They have been both lurking in plain sight, not adding much content. I realize that I could be accused of the same thing.

The main difference between TylerJ and ckillor, though, is while ckillor has really had very little to say, TylerJ's nonposts have usually consisted of "I find this scummy" and "I find that scummy." Saying these things is not enough to be scummy, but that's pretty much all that TylerJ does. Even after I pointed it out once, he continues to do it.

I've definitely got my eye on ckillor, but

Vote: TylerJ

I will attempt a full re-read soon and post my thoughts on more players.

Need evidence for ‘luking in plain sight’. When I say something is scummy, I am attempting to scum hunt. And still I ask, how is this a scumtell?

I'm gonna try to reread tomorrow.

I don't think Tyler's arguement has helped is case. I feel like he has something to hide by playing overly defensive. For now,

Unvote, Vote:Tyler

I'll put it there to apply some pressure instead of having two people at 4, we can have 1 at 5 and 1 at 3. This will almost definently change after my reread, or if he get's to -1.

Good, you gave reasoning. One of the first reasons that don’t go along with feelings. I honestly admit that I have been playing defensively. You win with this argument. But I ask, is there anything else you see as scummy. If not, is defensiveness alone strong enough evidence. Perhaps it is, but I still pose the question.

. Also note this is pretty soon after Rishi has further 'elaborated' on his vote for TylerJ. By elaborated I mean Rishi said he thought TylerJ was scummy because he smelled really scummy.

I never claimed that this was an elaboration, just a clarification.

I already laid out my reasons why I think TylerJ is scummy. He likes to point fingers without giving much justification behind them. Also, he is leaving his options open by calling a bunch of people scummy, but barely listing anyone as a pro-town player.

It seems that you are the one pointing fingers without much justification behind it. As far as the options open stuff, that doesn’t make sense to me. The point of the game isn’t to find who isn’t scummy, but who is. Hence me not posting who I thought was pro-town.