California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

Cogito Ergo Sum: 1 (logicticus)

[Dragon Phoenix]

I think the "case" against CES is total bull. I am moving pooky and logisticus up the ladder. Time for an updated condorcet:

Vote MrBuddyLee

, Sarcastro, [Cogito Ergo Sum, Logisticus, Pooky, Gaspar, Tamuz], [IH, Talitha, Zindaras], Foolinc, DP, no lynch

[Dragon Phoenix]

Oh, and I will be on once in a while the coming days, but will not be posting a lot until Tuesday - tomorrow is my father's 80th birthday and we have a couple of days of celebration scheduled.

[IH]

I am with Pooky on not liking CES' "You guys got lucky" comment. It seperates us from him, us being the majority of the players. Even if I was 100% certain that LML was town and was completely against lynching him and defended him the whole way to no avail and he came up town, I would say "We got lucky." not "You guys got lucky." So I dont buy that defense.

Thats kind of stupid.

Especially considering how CES probably wouldn't bother with a semantic of language, since he protested against LML's semantic of language. I would doubt he would distinguish it.

[foolinc]

I am with Pooky on not liking CES' "You guys got lucky" comment. It seperates us from him, us being the majority of the players. Even if I was 100% certain that LML was town and was completely against lynching him and defended him the whole way to no avail and he came up town, I would say "We got lucky." not "You guys got lucky." So I dont buy that defense.

vote CES

I'm not sold on this thinking at all. This is the LACE argument all over again. There is a possibility lightning with strike twice, but I'm going to need to see something more meaningful than this.

[Tamuz]

e·man·tic /sɪˈmæntɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[si-man-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or arising from the different meanings of words or other symbols: semantic change; semantic confusion.



I don't think that really works so well as a phrase IH.
Can you reproduce your thoughts in intelligible English. Like, what you did, but without the butchering.

[logicticus]

Yeah, I dont get what IH is saying.

But what foolinc said does make sense. But whether or not the LACE thing was correct doesnt matter, it was applying the pressure from it that really made LML crack.

[Gaspar]

I would agree with Foolinc if it were a D1 situation more. One of the methods I use from time to time is applying an unusually intense level of pressure for something relatively minor. Watching reactions based on that can be effective scumhunting.


The difference with LmL is twofold:
1) This came in D3 when simply attacking somebody hard generally shouldn't (and doesn't) cut the mustard. Supposing LmL were in fact protown, I could almost have guaranteed that there would be people all over his lynchers for running him up for a bad reason. But apparently this is turning into a game where the ends justify the means. I don't particularly like that.
2) The only person who really clearly expressed "I'm voting LmL because his response to this whole issue is what's scummy" is DP. Plus points for him, in retrospect. If you look at the actual people who laid down votes on them, most of them gave little to no real reasoning, and some were on it because of the LACE thing specifically (which is certainly up-in-the-air as to whether it was accurate).

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So why aren't you going after them?

[Talitha]

The only person who really clearly expressed "I'm voting LmL because his response to this whole issue is what's scummy" is DP. Plus points for him, in retrospect. If you look at the actual people who laid down votes on them, most of them gave little to no real reasoning,

Huh? What about when he got caught in a lie - did you miss that part?!? You are

definitely

on my condorcet today.

Also, in post 1128 when I added Lee to my condorcet I said that I was suspicious because of the lace thing but

it was his reactions that were cementing my suspicions

. I meant this is a general way. He wasn't acting innocent.

This is not a vote yet, just the beginnings of forming a condorcet:
Vote: Gaspar, Logisticus, IH

[foolinc]

The only person who really clearly expressed "I'm voting LmL because his response to this whole issue is what's scummy" is DP. Plus points for him, in retrospect. If you look at the actual people who laid down votes on them, most of them gave little to no real reasoning,

Huh? What about when he got caught in a lie - did you miss that part?!? You are

definitely

on my condorcet today.

Also, in post 1128 when I added Lee to my condorcet I said that I was suspicious because of the lace thing but

it was his reactions that were cementing my suspicions

. I meant this is a general way. He wasn't acting innocent.

This is not a vote yet, just the beginnings of forming a condorcet:
Vote: Gaspar, Logisticus, IH

What lie are you talking about? If you are talking about the LACE thing, it looks like it wasn't a lie at all. Was there something else I am forgetting?

[foolinc]

I do want to add that there is a chance he daykilled Xyzzy. But that would mean LML was telling the truth about his one shots and had a day vig.

[Talitha]

Lee was trying to tell us that he uses the word "lace" commonly. He does not. He tried to present 'proof', that wasn't. These things didn't prove that he killed xyyzy, but they showed that he was not on the level.

[Sarcastro]

I do want to add that there is a chance he daykilled Xyzzy. But that would mean LML was telling the truth about his one shots and had a day vig.

I think you're jumping to conclusions. LML having a dayvig does not prove at all that he had the other one-shot powers he claimed to have, especially when he didn't even claim to have a dayvig.

I'm not really sure whether or not LML was telling the truth about not killing Xyzzy. I don't think it matters right now, though, because if he didn't, I'm not sure what we even have anything to go on.

[foolinc]

Lee was trying to tell us that he uses the word "lace" commonly. He does not. He tried to present 'proof', that wasn't. These things didn't prove that he killed xyyzy, but they showed that he was not on the level.

This is flawed logic. Just because he couldn't find a time on the internet he use the word that was good enough for you and Pooky, doesn't mean he doesn't use it in his everyday life. And since every sign points to him not being able to poison people, LML must be telling the truth about using the word.

[foolinc]

The last sentence sounds wrong. There is a chance that LML was not telling the truth about using that word regularly, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't look like he use it to kill Xyzzy.

[Talitha]

I kinda feel like you're missing the point, but I don't know how to clarify it. I have a headache.

[Gaspar]

Lee was trying to tell us that he uses the word "lace" commonly. He does not. He tried to present 'proof', that wasn't. These things didn't prove that he killed xyyzy, but they showed that he was not on the level.

Foolinc is

exactly

right in this situation.

First of all, I would disagree with him not-using-lace as being indicative of him being scum.

Assuming that he did not kill Xyzzy (which is a conclusion I am willing to draw), that would imply that he

does

use "lace" in the manner he meant it. I personally found Pooky's demands of proof to be a little ridiculous; there are words that I use all the time in meatworld that simply aren't a part of my online persona.

Additionally, I was of the opinion that LmL's reaction seemed reasonably justified. In retrospect, the adamancy (is that a word?) with which he tried to avoid being lynched is consistent with him being an independent entity. However, at the time, I don't feel that there was enough to say that he was scum based on the way he had behaved.

Answer this for me, Tally:

How would you have expected LmL to react as a

protown player

in the face of the accusations placed against him, esepcially when Pooky demanded explicit, timestampped proof of him using it in an online setting? Why?
How would you have expected LmL to react as

Mafia

in the aforementioned situation?

One final thought for the day: I love how the three people I've expressed suspicion of (MBL, DP, Tally) are the three people who most seem to want me dead. Coincidence? You decide.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Why exactly is IH still third on your list, Tally,

especially

when you just admitted within the last 24 hours that you thought you were wrong about disbeliving his claim?

[Talitha]

Because I wasn't suspicious of him purely for his claim, silly. Did you actually read the post I made about it?

I don't understand why people are saying that
Lee didn't kill Xyzzy = Lee was telling the truth in his statements regarding lace, etc
It's pretty bloody obvious he was backed into a corner and was trying to cover his arse, whether or not he was responsible for the kill.

I didn't read your post thoroughly Gaspar, will do so when I am able to concentrate. Perhaps you could read mine properly too at some point.

[Gaspar]

I read your post and understood it completely. You stated that you thought you were wrong, but that you felt it might have been a safeclaim (something on which I would like you to elaborate, if you don't mind). You also stated that you wanted to reasess exactly why you were suspicious of Oman/IH and

whether you still felt it was valid

. Have you made that reasessment? Do you feel that your suspicions were valid? Why exactly did you suspect him to begin with?

It seems that you saw the claim, said "oh, I need to check on this" and suddenly he's back at the top of your list without another word of explanation. I'm curious as to know what your full thought processes are right now because from what I can see, they don't make any sense to me.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP (again): To clarify

my

perspective:
IH asks you what you think of his claim. You say you think you were wrong about [disbelieving] it. To me, that implies that you now believe it.
You stated that you wanted to re-examine why you were suspicous of him to begin
with and whether that suspicion was valid. Indication: You are no longer aware of your initial suspicions of IH.
Now he's third on your list. That indicates to me that you've reviewed and are still suspicious of him. Is that the case, or are you voting him based on past suspicions that you couldn't even fully articulate in your own mind?

[Talitha]

- I was wrong with my earlier assertions that every player has a proper name (eg. John Bloggs or Sally Smith). The overnight death shows this.

- I

was

wrong about doubting his claim
- My intial reaction when the day broke was, 'OK, IH must certainly be town...' I obviously didn't post that as I do not like to announce a player as cleared.
- Someone else (can't remember who) mentioned safe claims
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, i bet LML was given Mercedes as a safe claim.. he was awfully willing to claim'
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, I wonder if the other scum have safe claims too'
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, I bet the mafia, if they are given safe claims, would be given lesser believable safe claims than 'Mercedes', as a balance thing'.
- Thought to myself.. 'Hmm, I guess IH isn't cleared after all.'

It's Saturday morning after a week from hell and I have not reviewed yet. That's why

I am not voting yet

. I am using my condorcet as a list of who I am suspicious of to remind myself,

as I have been doing for most of the game

.

[Gaspar]

Okay... aside from the chronological discrepancy of MBL mentinioning safeclaims

before

you made your "IH is significantly less suspicious" post, that makes a bit more sense than "I was wrong about your claim" followed by putting him third on your condorcet with no elaboration.

I still don't like your justification for jumping LmL, nor your suspicions in general, nor your sudden dislike of me after I've begun applying pressure to you... and I am not entirely satisfied by your flipflop on IH just now.

And I still want you to make good on your promise to review your case on IH. Having somebody third on your list when you can't even explain why you're suspicious of them is likely indicative of subpar townie play, or it's evidence of a scumbag trying to slide under the radar. I fully intend to find out which is the case.

[Talitha]

I can only do what I can do. It's just a game after all. I have high standards of myself whether I'm scum or town, and I wish I had all the answers right now, but i don't. The thread is too daunting to attack without a fresh mind.