Open 45 - Baby Too Much Scum - Game Over! before 506

[Mookeh]

I know you are new here, but that kind of arguement doesnt hold much water here.

I am new here, yeah, but I'm also intelligent enough to see the logic in things. Your argument here is way less valid than the point I just made. Let me break it down.

Why does scum do anything?

Nonsense. We eliminate people we suspect as scum based on patterns of behaviour. According to your argument, scum's behaviour is eccentric and can't be predicted. Ergo, there is no way to find scum. If this is not what you meant, please clarify. If this

is

what you meant, you can obviously see how that is faulty.

Why would you FoS? because if FH was hung and he is indeed scum, you can say "I cant be scum because I FoSed him".

Agreed, but that was not my point. I don't consider myself cleared if FH is lynched. I said that FoSing eachother, if we

were

scum, would be bloody bad strategy because it increases the chances of suspicion tenfold - it's common for a 'fake' FoS to happen - but not two, not at eachother. This isn't

proof

, but it still holds water and you should seriously consider it. Also consider I was suspecting White as scum well before you even leaned towards me or White - for more valid reasons than he was suspecting me.

Maybe you didnt want to vote off your scum buddy, so you jsut FoSed him..I dont know...it is all conjecture.

Yeah, we both know that argument doesn't hold any water. Look, I'm trying to think together with you on this. So far, every accusation that's come my way I've deflected with pretty good logic. I'm okay with people suspecting me, but I have yet to see one good case presented against me.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am not attacking you(yet), so no need to be so defensive...I am simply saying, when people say "Why would I do this if I was scum?" it is saying "I couldnt possibly be scum because of A, B, or C". It doesnt really matter what A,B,or C is. IF A, B, C, are typically protown actions, bussing, lurking, self voting, whatever it doesnt matter...maybe you did A,B, and C BECAUSE you thought you could go back and say "why would I do this if I was scum"..it simply isnt a defense and doesnt hold water...it has nothing to do with logic.

[Mookeh]

I am not attacking you(yet), so no need to be so defensive...I am simply saying, when people say "Why would I do this if I was scum?" it is saying "I couldnt possibly be scum because of A, B, or C".

I'm not being defensive, I'm deconstructing any arguments brought against me. Why? Because I care about getting the scum and lynching a townie the first night would be bad for everyone.

Again though, you have not gotten my point. My point wasn't clearing myself. I'm pointing out how unlikely it is me and FD are scumbuddies, not how how unlikely it is I'm scum regardless. If you don't see that logic, too bad. Anyway, I'm very much awaiting White's reply regarding my comments and the questions from others he hasn't answered yet. I'd also like Mneme to explain his actions a bit more.

[curiouskarmadog]

SO I assume you think FH(fd?) is scum..do you think he is mafia or the SK?..who do you think could be a SK?

[Mookeh]

SO I assume you think FH(fd?) is scum..do you think he is mafia or the SK?..who do you think could be a SK?

To be honest, I'm not sure. If I was sure I would have voted him. I think White is SK (previous page) for several reasons, so that would rule FH out as SK. FH is my second. Is he scum? Likely, but not likely enough to go at him just yet. I'd love to hear some more explanations from FH, especially after Mneme's reasoning.

[White]

And I repeat, if other people decide to lynch me, and they realise they've lynched a townie, mark these words: White is scum.

Ok, so in this sentence you not only claim townie with, from your perspective, almost no pressure AND you direct the town. You don't know how to play this game do you? I'm glad to have my vote here.

Popular opinion (look for yourself at people's tone and FoS's) were against FH.

I'm suspicious of him being mafia because of his extremely scummy behaviour towards me particularly

So you're saying it's OMGUS. Gotcha. No i'm not being extremely scummy towards you, stop taking everything personally, it's a game.

FH in 267 really sounds like mafia saying, "Don't go after me, go after the sk!"

FoS: FH

Why would do it to eachother then?

It's called bussing or distancing.

[White]

Mookeh, your arrogance astounds me.

[Mookeh]

You don't know how to play this game do you? I'm glad to have my vote here.

Right. That's still baseless. And an added baseless insult. Good job, White.

Popular opinion (look for yourself at people's tone and FoS's) were against FH.

Oh man, I'm sorry for going along with the popular opinion. Am I jumping on a bandwagon, or could it possibly be that

he was just that conspicious?

Still not as conspicious as you, by the way.

ISo you're saying it's OMGUS. Gotcha. No i'm not being extremely scummy towards you, stop taking everything personally, it's a game.

I realise it's a game, and I'm taking it personally inside of the game. I wasn't saying it's OMGUS - are you dumb? It's only an OMGUS if you can't provide a valid reason. I provided plenty, foremost of which is your manipulation of words, questioned by myself and others which you

still haven't answered

. I'm

really

glad my vote is on you.

It's called bussing or distancing.

It would be, if not for the fact that I've been FoSed by him as well. What, mutual distancing? Explain the benefit.

[joost]

Just for the record (as CKD implied). Using arguments like "Why would I do that if I were scum?" or "Scum would never do...." is bad logic known as WIFOM.

Good arguments would be "A townie would never do..." or "Why would you do that if you were town?" or "Only scum would do..." followed by an explanation about why you think a certain action is scummy. I'm telling you this because you claimed newbie, I don't think your stupid or anything.

I will

unvote

because I feel that what I thought was scummy nervousness is actually excitement about the game.

[Mookeh]

Mookeh, your arrogance astounds me.

And

another

insult. Nice.

[Mookeh]

...is bad logic known as WIFOM.

I've read the article and I see what you guys are getting at now. I misunderstood and thought you were getting at something else. I'm still incredibly suspicious of White. Am I the only one?

[joost]

I did a quick reread of all of White's posts and he doesn't really appear scummy to me. The only thing I noticed about him is that he voted for Edion, Bird and Mookeh and he was willing to lynch Jennar. Which either means he's actively trying to find scum or he doesn't really care who gets lynched. But since he explained all of his voted I think it's the former. Ckillor's lurking fitted the scum/sk bill though, I'm not really sure. I think White is pro-town for the moment. I don't think his case on Mookeh is flawed really but I think Mookeh is newbie town while White thinks he's newbie scum.

[White]

I think Joost hit the nail on the head with his last sentence.

Mook, please post exactly where I twisted your words and exactly what I haven't answered. Don't say go look up or over there or anything either.

[Flyinghawk]

How does my post look shady?

How does my post look shady?

I have the same question, explain yourself CKD.

LOL, you two crazy kids..

Flyinghawk’s post was worse, because he immediately jumped to the defensive and jump when bird told him to. Almost like hawk is way too worried about what we think…which I think is yet another strike against Flyinghawk..probably scum

I didnt like bird's post because he was lurking, had to be prodded, then just regurgitated cases and statements everyone has already stated. I am getting a SK vibe off bird.

Why didn’t you give an opinion of me in your break down, or am I missing it in the quote tags?

Defending myself against Bird's response to my analysis was more of an explanation. I thought the three people I FOSed were acting scummy, but is FOSing 3 people in the same post really effective? I try hard not to FOS more than one person per post, because once you start saying 'you and you and you are all suspicious' the effectiveness goes down. However, Bird seemed to think that I only thought Jennar was suspicious, which was wrong.
I find it interesting that you jump on me for over anxiously defending myself though, and heres why:
Mookeh, since he's joined this game, has defended himself like crazy. You want over anxious defending? Try his responses to Whites questions about his analysis. While the circumstances are slightly different, the jist is still the same. Yet, you don't even mention this. You just critique and give advice about his arguments. In fact, you even deny that you are attacking him when he implies that he thinks you are. This thought process of mine isn't completely thought out, but theres something that doesn't add up there.

In my mind bird or mneme is the SK...going to review each and see if I find anything...

I find it interesting that more than one person perhaps believes Mneme is the SK. I'm looking back to see if I can find anything else, but I would definetely be interested in seeing if you can find anything.

[Mookeh]

IDon't say go look up or over there or anything either.

I repeated quotes already - but fine, I'll go through it from the very top.

Hi, welcome to the thread. As was asked of everyone please present your scumdar/LoS.

In my concurrent Scumdar I gave an FoS to Mneme and suspected FD as well (no FoS yet though). I also pointed out CKD was a bit suspicious but left it at that. You asked why I didn't have anything more concrete. I replied that I was being careful (just like many, many others have been), but I still FoSed someone and pointed out two others which was pretty concrete in my eyes. Your reply:

Something's not right with you, you don't actually seem to care about this thread, you just want to go along with the majority lynch of FH.
Unvote(?), Vote: Mookeh

Whoa, first mistake, cowboy. I FoSed Mneme and there you go implying I want to go along with a majority lynch of FlyingHawk. You can't justify this no matter which way you try. I didn't even FoS FH, let alone vote him. Worst reason ever to vote me - and this within only three posts of mine as well. Suspicious? Damn right. I can't believe Joost didn't see this as scummy. Subsequently, you were asked by FH:

Where do you get the idea that there is a majority lynch on me White?

This was a few pages ago and you haven't replied yet.

Then there's a few posts where I discuss with Joost and basically make him go from voting me to unvoting me by explaining things. I keep hammering on White's extremely suspicious first vote on me. Here comes his reply:

Mookeh's overdefensiveness over 2 votes is noted. Along with his appeal to emotion and his wishy washy stance. Mookeh, pushing a lynch with a vote is not generally scummy, pushing a lynch without a vote (which is what you were/are doing with FH) is scummy.

I replied to this one by pointing out again his serious logical flaw: I never pushed a lynch in the first place (didn't even FoS, didn't even vote) yet here he goes assuming again, without replying to FH's own question that I could never have possibly pushed a lynch anyway. Two strikes against White.

Note that I was actually so confused by his constant pressing I replied with 'FoSing FH', but looking back I didn't even FoS him, just said he was a bit suspicious. My FoS went to Mneme - interesting how White never jumped on that. Must keep that in mind.

Then, I formed an additional theory validating White as SK in my mind:

Sorry for switching on paranoid mode again, but I've been reading Jennar's analysis and I can't help but wonder if White's forcing of Jennar's claim (which he was questioned about and hasn't answered yet, even though he took the liberty of one more unjustified jab at me) is not so much a last-minute check before he'd lynch an innocent, but a guaranteed way of ensuring he looks innocent and can still lynch him at nighttime.

Granted, this theory isn't incredibly strong - there's a lot of conjecture here. But his scummy behavious towards me made me so suspicious that my mind started working: in what scenario is it plausible for White to be scum? Note that this is not OMGUS reasoning. As you can see above he made several huge errors in logic towards me, making him either stupid or scummy. I just went from the other way around to going: 'Hm, ok, this guy is definitely scum. Why would he do this and this?' So this isn't the strongest part of my case against him.

Although Mneme believes White, he still pointed out:

Note that Mookeh has a point here -- this is not a game where the town benefits much from role claims (we do benefit from Jennar's, but it's a low probability claim), so White's forcing the claim is somewhat suspicious.

He never responded to this either.

So yes, everyone would still like to know why you forced a claim, and I would

especially

like to hear why the hell you started voting for me with the reasoning I was trying to lynch FH when I

never even FoSed him, let alone voted him

. To top that, at the time of the accusation, even if I

had

voted him it wouldn't even be close to a lynch. Completely sloppy logic. Explain.

Also, worth repeating: it's interesting how I

did

FoS Mneme but I didn't even hear so much as a squeek.

[bird1111]

Large amount of homework+scum being blocked on my laptop outside of weekends (meaning I have to go to the library or computer lab)=Lack of time on weekdays, don't expect much from me except on weekends.

[joost]

Mookeh has a point actually. He didn't really attack FH much in his List of Suspects, he even FoS'ed Mneme but White ignores that (and I missed it completely).

Is this a mistake on your part White or is there a reason you didn't mention the FoS?

Btw

Mod, vote count please

[theopor_COD]

Votecount

Flyinghawk (2) - Bird1111, Mneme
Mookeh (1) - White
White (1) - Mookeh
Mneme (1) - Flyinghawk

Not voting - Joost, Jennar, CKD

[joost]

So are we waiting on White now?

[curiouskarmadog]

Think I heard (from the mod) in another game I am in with him that he told the mod that he wasnt going to be around much this next week.

Mod can you confirm that?

I personally am not waiting for him..some hoping for more from Bird or mneme...or even jennar.

[Jennar]

. . .or even jennar.

The majority of my suspicion still resides on Flynighawk. Mneme has not posted enough for me to get a better evaluation of his actions though I still don't consider him anywhere being a pro-town player right now.

As for Mookeh I think he is either a very clever scum player acting the newb effectively or really just a newbie. There are chinks in his armor that I am seeing though nothing to really pressure on right now. If the trend continues I will point it out and lean on it some. i won't bring specific notice to it right now because I don't want to see the behavior corrected before it has a chance to repeat.

As for white I think it is apparent the reasons why a mafia would not want to hammer even though it would be justified to the town.

Usually

the beginning and ending of a lynch vote are places that Mafia do not want to be. Good players can get around this but as default they are not strong positions to defend. Despite this I have my reservations about him.

Vote: Flyinghawk

is as of right now the only person I feel comfortable throwing this on. He has been quick to divert attention away from himself by trying to shift it to Mookeh. He also seems more concentrated on proving his innocence instead of actively hunting scum.

You do something that also intrigues me CKD. In post 271 you give a game breakdown yet in all scenarios you conveniently leave yourself out. While this may be seen that you are trying to place yourself as an innocent it also a useful tool of scum to plant the seed in the others players mind that you are town. Seeing that if they refer to your model they will never see your name on the suspicions list. It is a curiosity and nothing more however and doesn't overly change my evaluation of you.

-J

[theopor_COD]

White is going to absent for a while. He's not being replaced.

[Flyinghawk]

So basically White isn't going to answer any of mookeh's questions, huh.

[curiouskarmadog]

So basically White isn't going to answer any of mookeh's questions, huh.

no retort to jennar?

[Flyinghawk]

I don't see how, Jennar, you can say that I have been shifting attention on to Mookeh, I just brought him up as an example. I didn't even say what he was doing was scummy, I was using it to show a discrepancy of CKDs logic.

Furthermore, stating that I am both "trying to put attention on Mookeh" and "not hunting for scum" is a direct contradiction to begin with. Because I disagree with the first statement, this argument is basically moot, but its still a flaw in logic.


Finally, I am very upset that White has chosen this moment to leave. Regardless of the reason, I think its a scummy move to leave with these unanswered questions, and especially without informing the other players in this thread. I mean, if he had enough time to tell the mod that he isn't going to be around, couldn't he at least have enough to to briefly respond to Mookeh's questions?