Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #42

Flameaxe[4](Kakeng, pwayne66, White, vollkan)
tyhess[2](Oman, Mastermind of Sin)
Kakeng[1](Trojan Horse)
pwayne66[1](curiouskarmadog)
Trojan Horse[1](tyhess)
White[1](Flameaxe)


Not Voting[2](Tarhalindur, theopor_COD)

---

At deadline, if there is no majority of voting players, no one will be lynched. I've explained this many times, but want to be perfectly clear: 6-5 with 1 not voting is a lynch, but 6-5-1 is not a lynch.

Also, no votes after 11:59 PM Friday EST will count, whether I check the thread right then or not. Feel free to continue discussion in twilight, but a "lynch" after then will not count.

You have a little over 48 hours from the time of this post until deadline.

Unvote, Vote: Tyhess

It makes no sense to lynch without asking for a claim.

[tyhess]

If your scum, would you say you were scum? No, you would say your either vanilla or a power. If your vanilla, we have another tar situation. If you say roleblocker, the scums either going to lynch you because they know your a roleblocker/town (the only ones who truly know other than you), or if your scum and say that, you'll live and then we'll lynch you becuase the scum didn't NK you. Please explain how this benefits town at this point-I can see it later where you can say you protected/ investigated people, but not now.

[vollkan]

pwayne put it best- the only person who can make anything from a claim is scum. How do we know he isn't lying? What would have happened if he had claimed vanilla? Then we would have two tars. That's not good.

Scum characteristically claim vanilla when under pressure. If a person is under heavy suspicion/pressure and they claim vanilla, the usual play is to lynch them. Tar, on the other hand, had no reason to claim. I can't quite imagine a scumbag being so careless in a game like this. This is, of course, a massive WIFOM, but the fact is that a claim under pressure of lynch should be taken differently to one like Tar's.

And ckd- Honestly, in this game at this point, I would rather lynch a roleblocker than ask for a claim....not that I want to lynch a roleblocker, I just don't think that we are in a great position now- the 2 people that we had the best cases for are now claimed vanilla (who may or may not be recruited tommorow, and then we don't even know if he is vanilla) and a roleblocker (who may or may not be a roleblocker). If he is truly a roleblocker, he's going to be NK tonight. I would rather them try to talk themselves out of it than claim.

This is positively ridiculous.

For one thing:
1) If you want to lynch a claimed role, why not lynch Tar instead? I don't want to lynch either, but surely a claimed vanilla is a better candidate than a claimed power role.
2) The fact he is going to be NKed is a big problem now, but we might as well capitalise on it as much as possible by keeping him alive today to draw the mafia's fire at night.
3) How do you want them to "talk themselves out"? Neither of them was wagonned out of suspicion. Tar's lynch came up because of his claim; Kakeng's was lurking and refusal to help (a scumtell, but not major).

FoS: Tyhess

And yes I do realize that this gives a better chance at lynching scum and scum lynching the roleblocker than us lynching a roleblocker and scum lynching scum. Don't get me wrong though-I'm not for a Kak lynch at this point. I just don't like the ask for a claim.

The obvious implication of this is that you would prefer we accidentally lynch a power role.

If your scum, would you say you were scum? No, you would say your either vanilla or a power. If your vanilla, we have another tar situation. If you say roleblocker, the scums either going to lynch you because they know your a roleblocker/town (the only ones who truly know other than you), or if your scum and say that, you'll live and then we'll lynch you becuase the scum didn't NK you. Please explain how this benefits town at this point-I can see it later where you can say you protected/ investigated people, but not now.

It is true that, in this game, a genuine vanilla claim has stronger repercussions than in a regular game (where it simply says "This person is not a power role" to the mafia). However, it still works to our obvious advantage by not having power roles lynched. Furthermore, there is always the possibility of doctor protection/bodyguarding etc. to keep that power role alive.

The advantage of claiming is purely and simply that it stops us lynching power roles.

Still disagree?

[tyhess]

pwayne put it best- the only person who can make anything from a claim is scum. How do we know he isn't lying? What would have happened if he had claimed vanilla? Then we would have two tars. That's not good.

Scum characteristically claim vanilla when under pressure. If a person is under heavy suspicion/pressure and they claim vanilla, the usual play is to lynch them. Tar, on the other hand, had no reason to claim. I can't quite imagine a scumbag being so careless in a game like this. This is, of course, a massive WIFOM, but the fact is that a claim under pressure of lynch should be taken differently to one like Tar's.

Makes sense, but goes with what I said earlier- someone mentioned he did the same thing in another game and came up town. Then tar mentioned that he did the same thing in that game and shouldn't be lynched because he was town last time he did it.

And ckd- Honestly, in this game at this point, I would rather lynch a roleblocker than ask for a claim....not that I want to lynch a roleblocker, I just don't think that we are in a great position now- the 2 people that we had the best cases for are now claimed vanilla (who may or may not be recruited tommorow, and then we don't even know if he is vanilla) and a roleblocker (who may or may not be a roleblocker). If he is truly a roleblocker, he's going to be NK tonight. I would rather them try to talk themselves out of it than claim.

This is positively ridiculous.

For one thing:
1) If you want to lynch a claimed role, why not lynch Tar instead? I don't want to lynch either, but surely a claimed vanilla is a better candidate than a claimed power role.
2) The fact he is going to be NKed is a big problem now, but we might as well capitalise on it as much as possible by keeping him alive today to draw the mafia's fire at night.
3) How do you want them to "talk themselves out"? Neither of them was wagonned out of suspicion. Tar's lynch came up because of his claim; Kakeng's was lurking and refusal to help (a scumtell, but not major).

FoS: Tyhess

Did you read the rest of my post where I said that I don't want to accidently lynch a roleblocker, but that I think it is better than to ask for a claim (as I have said, this puts us in a horrible position)

And yes I do realize that this gives a better chance at lynching scum and scum lynching the roleblocker than us lynching a roleblocker and scum lynching scum. Don't get me wrong though-I'm not for a Kak lynch at this point. I just don't like the ask for a claim.

The obvious implication of this is that you would prefer we accidentally lynch a power role.

That was my quote- and I think that his claim was based off of pressure, not out of truth.

If your scum, would you say you were scum? No, you would say your either vanilla or a power. If your vanilla, we have another tar situation. If you say roleblocker, the scums either going to lynch you because they know your a roleblocker/town (the only ones who truly know other than you), or if your scum and say that, you'll live and then we'll lynch you becuase the scum didn't NK you. Please explain how this benefits town at this point-I can see it later where you can say you protected/ investigated people, but not now.

It is true that, in this game, a genuine vanilla claim has stronger repercussions than in a regular game (where it simply says "This person is not a power role" to the mafia). However, it still works to our obvious advantage by not having power roles lynched. Furthermore, there is always the possibility of doctor protection/bodyguarding etc. to keep that power role alive.

The advantage of claiming is purely and simply that it stops us lynching power roles.

Still disagree?

Ok, but say he's scum. Then the doctor protects him, when the town he otherwise would have protected gets NK-I think in a game with a cultist that its not good. The disadvantages in my opinion (he's lying, he claims town and we have 2 tars, he'll get NK when all he had to do is add info and he'd wouldn't be in a position to be lynched(atleast in Kak's case), or he survives and there's a huge WIFOM situation (is he scum, or did scum let him go to have us lynch him) outweigh the advantages (not lynching him and possibly having him save someone). That's my thoughts. Correct me if you think there's something wrong with that, and I'll be for a claim from now on. At this point I'm not convinced of it in this game.

[vollkan]

Makes sense, but goes with what I said earlier- someone mentioned he did the same thing in another game and came up town. Then tar mentioned that he did the same thing in that game and shouldn't be lynched because he was town last time he did it.

The difference here, though, is that Tar was not under massive suspicion. He claimed of his own volition without pressure.

Did you read the rest of my post where I said that I don't want to accidently lynch a roleblocker, but that I think it is better than to ask for a claim (as I have said, this puts us in a horrible position)

And yes I do realize that

this

gives a better chance at lynching scum and scum lynching the roleblocker than us lynching a roleblocker and scum lynching scum. Don't get me wrong though-I'm not for a Kak lynch at this point.

I just don't like the ask for a claim.

I thought by "this" you meant "us not lynching kakeng", not "asking for claims" which is what your latest post makes me think you meant.

You did also say at the end that you don't like claim asks.

Ok, but say he's scum.

1)

Then the doctor protects him, when the town he otherwise would have protected gets NK-I think in a game with a cultist that its not good. The disadvantages in my opinion

2

(he's lying, he claims town and we have 2 tars, he'll get NK when all he had to do is add info and he'd wouldn't be in a position to be lynched(atleast in Kak's case), or he

3

survives and there's a huge WIFOM situation (is he scum, or did scum let him go to have us lynch him) outweigh the advantages (not lynching him and possibly having him save someone). That's my thoughts. Correct me if you think there's something wrong with that, and I'll be for a claim from now on. At this point I'm not convinced of it in this game.

1) The doctor is not guaranteed success anyway. It's much better that he protect a known power role than to protect at random in which case there is only a 1/11 chance of him succeeding (by pure numbers). Furthermore, the front page explicitly states that the doctor saves "from

death

". The cult does not kill. Thus, that leads me to believe that the doctor may be unable to protect against the cult.
2) If he is lying, he is most likely scum but could be an idiotic vanilla. We have no reason to think he is lying though.
3) This applies in every game where there is a claim. Typically, though, the scum will want to NK power roles as quickly as possible. If they don't get rid of a RB, for instance, they run a risk of losing their NK two nights in a row.

[tyhess]

Makes sense, but goes with what I said earlier- someone mentioned he did the same thing in another game and came up town. Then tar mentioned that he did the same thing in that game and shouldn't be lynched because he was town last time he did it.

The difference here, though, is that Tar was not under massive suspicion. He claimed of his own volition without pressure.

That's exactly why I think it was a false claim-he said that he did it in another game, and that he was town in that game, so that now that he did it in this game, he's obviously town. That's why I didn't like his claim (among other reasons already explained.

Ok, but say he's scum.

1)

Then the doctor protects him, when the town he otherwise would have protected gets NK-I think in a game with a cultist that its not good. The disadvantages in my opinion

2

(he's lying, he claims town and we have 2 tars, he'll get NK when all he had to do is add info and he'd wouldn't be in a position to be lynched(atleast in Kak's case), or he

3

survives and there's a huge WIFOM situation (is he scum, or did scum let him go to have us lynch him) outweigh the advantages (not lynching him and possibly having him save someone). That's my thoughts. Correct me if you think there's something wrong with that, and I'll be for a claim from now on. At this point I'm not convinced of it in this game.

1) The doctor is not guaranteed success anyway. It's much better that he protect a known power role than to protect at random in which case there is only a 1/11 chance of him succeeding (by pure numbers). Furthermore, the front page explicitly states that the doctor saves "from

death

". The cult does not kill. Thus, that leads me to believe that the doctor may be unable to protect against the cult.
2) If he is lying, he is most likely scum but could be an idiotic vanilla. We have no reason to think he is lying though.
3) This applies in every game where there is a claim. Typically, though, the scum will want to NK power roles as quickly as possible. If they don't get rid of a RB, for instance, they run a risk of losing their NK two nights in a row.

1) I know, but I was saying "what if".
2) I think he would have just added info instead of claiming-that's the only reason he was being voted for. It would have been more protown to do so.
3)I get what your saying, but what would you do if he DOES make it past the night, and there was another kill (ie the scums kill)?

[vollkan]

That's exactly why I think it was a false claim-he said that he did it in another game, and that he was town in that game, so that now that he did it in this game, he's obviously town. That's why I didn't like his claim (among other reasons already explained.

I disagree with you because the claim Tar made is not something that will help a scum in the long run. It flags him as a potential cultist and thus makes a lynch more likely. He could still be mafia, but it is a big gambit.

3)I get what your saying, but what would you do if he DOES make it past the night, and there was another kill (ie the scums kill)?

I would carry on as normal. All I would know is that Tar is likely scum. I would watch his behaviour closely, but I would not push for his lynch.

[tyhess]

I meant Kak, the claimed role blocker-what if he survives?

[vollkan]

I meant Kak, the claimed role blocker-what if he survives?

Ah.

If Kak survives (unlikely for power roles to survive in my experience) it is a WIFOM situation. The best thing we can do is just proceed as normal.

[tyhess]

That's what I meant. If neither die, we have that in 2 situations, with both of the major lurkers.....nothing we can do about it now though......

[Trojan Horse]

Another newbish comment from tyhess. More grounds for lynching? Perhaps. I'd certainly prefer to lynch tyhess than Flameaxe.

Unvote, Vote tyhess

Note: I'm prepared to switch to Flameaxe at the last minute, if that's what it takes to avoid a no lynch. Better to lynch someone of average scumminess than to lynch no one.

[tyhess]

Why? How about you explain what's wrong instead of just going with the flow when i got yelled at for that.

[vollkan]

Another newbish comment from tyhess. More grounds for lynching? Perhaps. I'd certainly prefer to lynch tyhess than Flameaxe.

Unvote, Vote tyhess

Note: I'm prepared to switch to Flameaxe at the last minute, if that's what it takes to avoid a no lynch. Better to lynch someone of average scumminess than to lynch no one.

Wait...you are voting Tyhess for newbiness as a grounds for lynching?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok I think tyhess is town, and he just clarified a lot of thoughts for me.

Unvote, Vote: Kakeng

I'm sure that's the right play for today. I doubt he is a roleblocker. He replaced into the game, promised a lot of contribution, and did nothing. Then, when wagoned almost to a lynch, he came back, posted a roleblocker claim (unlikely to draw a counterclaim, but powerful enough that we might not lynch him). And he still doesn't give us an update on the analysis he promised. This is not protown at all. It looks like he was planning to lurk through to Day 2, got caught, and claimed a power role to save his ass, because as far as the mafia is concerned, every day they can live without dying is a plus, even if it's just a quick fix. A roleblocker claim can be ridden several days without lynch, as long as he gets lucky with his claimed targets. For example, he could claim to have targetted his scumbuddy, or he could claim against the dead person, or he could claim against someone the mafia feels is unlikely to have a power role (like Tar). This buys him several days of life, while we sit around lynching other people.

I'm pretty sure his play so far has been a scum ploy. It's clear he's not actually trying to help the town. Just look at his posts in isolation and you'll see what I mean.

Let's do this guys. We can lynch him before time is up.

[Trojan Horse]

Tyhess's latest comment (on it being bad to ask for a claim from Kakeng before lynching) could just be a sign of newbishness, or a sign of scumminess. On the newbish side; could just have been confusion over what we talked about with Dr. Blackstrike. (We mentioned the difficulties we could have after someone claims vanilla townie. That doesn't mean it's bad to ask for a claim BEFORE a lynch.) On the scummy side... well, not wanting to have a claim before a lynch is scummy.

My number one choice is still Kakeng... could very well be mafia RBer. But I'd resigned myself to the fact that he won't be lynched now... not enough time left... so I picked tyhess over Flameaxe for preference.

[Trojan Horse]

Whoa. Simulpost FTW. Maybe there's still a chance after all.

Unvote, Vote Kakeng

Now that's more like it.

[tyhess]

I'm sure that's the right play for today. I doubt he is a roleblocker. He replaced into the game, promised a lot of contribution, and did nothing. Then, when wagoned almost to a lynch, he came back, posted a roleblocker claim (unlikely to draw a counterclaim, but powerful enough that we might not lynch him). And he still doesn't give us an update on the analysis he promised. This is not protown at all. It looks like he was planning to lurk through to Day 2, got caught, and claimed a power role to save his ass, because as far as the mafia is concerned, every day they can live without dying is a plus, even if it's just a quick fix. A roleblocker claim can be ridden several days without lynch, as long as he gets lucky with his claimed targets. For example, he could claim to have targetted his scumbuddy, or he could claim against the dead person, or he could claim against someone the mafia feels is unlikely to have a power role (like Tar). This buys him several days of life, while we sit around lynching other people.

I'm pretty sure his play so far has been a scum ploy. It's clear he's not actually trying to help the town. Just look at his posts in isolation and you'll see what I mean.

Let's do this guys. We can lynch him before time is up.

QFT The only thing I don't like is the last line.

[vollkan]

Ok I think tyhess is town, and he just clarified a lot of thoughts for me.

Unvote, Vote: Kakeng

I'm sure that's the right play for today. I doubt he is a roleblocker. He replaced into the game, promised a lot of contribution, and did nothing. Then, when wagoned almost to a lynch, he came back, posted a roleblocker claim (unlikely to draw a counterclaim, but powerful enough that we might not lynch him). And he still doesn't give us an update on the analysis he promised. This is not protown at all. It looks like he was planning to lurk through to Day 2, got caught, and claimed a power role to save his ass, because as far as the mafia is concerned, every day they can live without dying is a plus, even if it's just a quick fix. A roleblocker claim can be ridden several days without lynch, as long as he gets lucky with his claimed targets. For example, he could claim to have targetted his scumbuddy, or he could claim against the dead person, or he could claim against someone the mafia feels is unlikely to have a power role (like Tar). This buys him several days of life, while we sit around lynching other people.

I'm pretty sure his play so far has been a scum ploy. It's clear he's not actually trying to help the town. Just look at his posts in isolation and you'll see what I mean.

Let's do this guys. We can lynch him before time is up.

I see where you are coming from...but something about lynching a claimed power role just instinctively rubs me the wrong way.

I'll vote to avoid a No Lynch, but I prefer flameaxe right now.

[theopor_COD]

I'm very sceptical of power-role claims under pressure dunno why but I am, MoS makes a decent argument, plus Kakeng based on his and AC1983's play is the biggest suspect for scum for me. I could easily move back onto Kakeng but Trojan yet again is concerning me this page alone, heck I wonder why he got let off the mat so easily before. Flameaxe's lurking is irritating aswell.

Decision will be made prior to the deadline, where's Whitey got too aswell normally so vocal yet he's dissapeared.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm sure that's the right play for today. I doubt he is a roleblocker. He replaced into the game, promised a lot of contribution, and did nothing. Then, when wagoned almost to a lynch, he came back, posted a roleblocker claim (unlikely to draw a counterclaim, but powerful enough that we might not lynch him). And he still doesn't give us an update on the analysis he promised. This is not protown at all. It looks like he was planning to lurk through to Day 2, got caught, and claimed a power role to save his ass, because as far as the mafia is concerned, every day they can live without dying is a plus, even if it's just a quick fix. A roleblocker claim can be ridden several days without lynch, as long as he gets lucky with his claimed targets. For example, he could claim to have targetted his scumbuddy, or he could claim against the dead person, or he could claim against someone the mafia feels is unlikely to have a power role (like Tar). This buys him several days of life, while we sit around lynching other people.

I'm pretty sure his play so far has been a scum ploy. It's clear he's not actually trying to help the town. Just look at his posts in isolation and you'll see what I mean.

Let's do this guys. We can lynch him before time is up.

QFT The only thing I don't like is the last line.

I only said it because there are some people (scumbuddies, usually) who refuse to vote because they don't think we can reach a lynch before the deadline.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I see where you are coming from...but something about lynching a claimed power role just instinctively rubs me the wrong way.

I'll vote to avoid a No Lynch, but I prefer flameaxe right now.

I'll have to write that down.

"Next time I am scum in a game with vollkan, claim a power role. He won't lynch me."

I'm sure you see what I'm getting at here.

[theopor_COD]

Actually I'm with MoS here nothing regards Kakeng screams pro-town. His original joke of the vanilla claim puzzled me and I think if Tar didn't go so much heat for it, he'd be happy to have confirmed vanilla. I think he's more than likely scum.

Vote Kakeng

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm very sceptical of power-role claims under pressure dunno why but I am, MoS makes a decent argument, plus Kakeng based on his and AC1983's play is the biggest suspect for scum for me. I could easily move back onto Kakeng but Trojan yet again is concerning me this page alone, heck I wonder why he got let off the mat so easily before. Flameaxe's lurking is irritating aswell.

Decision will be made prior to the deadline, where's Whitey got too aswell normally so vocal yet he's dissapeared.

I'm concerned about them, too, but Kakeng is a pretty obvious scum in front of us. Trojan is just too borderline for me to want a lynch on him yet. Flameaxe and Trojan will definitely need to be pressured tomorrow, but I don't think wagoning either of them is going to be productive. We need to show that there CAN be a lynch on Kakeng in the next 24 hours, and we need your vote to do it.



^.^ <3 Campaign speeches

[tyhess]

unvote,vote:kak


FOS MoS

(again)

I don't even know what it is, but the way he's going about trying to get votes is almost like a politician. Everyone knows what a politician is known for (lieing).

[tyhess]

EBWOP

I just saw MoS's little campaign speeches thing, which makes it a little better, but he's done that a couple of times now.....