Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Skruffs]

And you were mistrustful of VitR, thinking he was scum, but you included him in your group of four anyways. Why?

[Skruffs]

Guardian, wether you are scum or town, you have held up remarkably well under scrutiny - kudos on that.

[Guardian]

I explained why I included VitaminR here, when I first introduced the plan.

And thanks... can we lynch IH yet ?

[VitaminR]

So, here's some points:
What do you think of VitaminR not being on Setael's wagon - or on the wagon Setael was pushing, for that matter, too?

I was on the Setaelwagon, from quite early on.

Factor in that the lynch happened fairly soon after VitaminR had acknowledged that he busses his scum buddies - and instigating that he feels you would do the same?

Meaningless. WIFOM argument.

Did you notice that VitaminR agreed with everything you said yesterday, until you voted Setael, and today his opinion of you has changed?

Hmm... might those things be related? I grew suspicious of him because of his interaction with Setael yesterday.

I searched his posts and found no analysis of you, by him, just glowing endorsements.

I agreed with him. That doesn't mean I wasn't scrutinising him.

Did not help lynch Romanus's replacement, who was mafia.

Untrue. Furthermore, I think it ironic how your analysis of the role of my gut shows how that has been consistent throughout the game.

Thok, if you feel "neutral at best" about me, why? What about my actions do you find suspicious?

[Elias_the_thief]

I just reread one of my old games with guardian as town. His play here is so similar, I dont see how he could be scum. I'm going to try to find one of him as scum to be sure, but I'm thinking his erratic behavior which I considered a scumtell earlier could well be a playstyle thing.

[Elias_the_thief]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure (meta wise) that Guardian is clean. Games that I used are:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0 for a scum game, and

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 74&start=0 for a town game (he replaces later in game)

I dunno. He seems a lot more consistent with play in the town game, I remember him acting very similar to as he is now in that games endgame.

[Thok]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure (meta wise) that Guardian is clean. Games that I used are:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0 for a scum game

While I agree that Guardian is following his town metas, I don't believe his scum metas are fully reflected in the listed game. Guardian was forced into fake claiming cop by his 7th post. I'd like to think that has some influence on how he plays. (I'm probably overestimating this influence, but whatever.)

Looking over the end of yesterday, I notice that IH spends a lot of time attacking Setael, but never really comes close to voting for her even when Setael did the whole jump on IH thing. Note: I find this a much stronger reason for an IH lynch than "IH is making lazy attacks," as it looks like IH trying to distance without really following it up.

@VitR-part of why I have you in neutral is that I don't really trust you just going on your gut and I see some similarities between here and C&H (specifically I feel like that you've been focusing on one player at a time in both places; there are also some individual plays that also seem similar, in particular your play with mustafa here feels like your play with PJ there.) Basically, if Skruffs didn't make his post about you, I would have made a similar post after Guardian answered my question about why he trusted you.

I've also feel like you are protecting Guardian a bit too much (and I dislike that you've flat out said several times that you'd look at the Guardian arguments and then not done so.)

Feh, I'm probably wrong about this and scum is something obvious like IH-Tony.

[TonyMoonshine]

Ummm... What is this the Guardian lovefest? Why are people defending Guardian to such great lenghts when he only has 1 vote? Guardian has not held up calm under pressure. When he's close to lynch he cries and begs to live. This is fact.

[TonyMoonshine]

And, it's great that some don't have time to post often enough but have time to review Guardian's previous games. I have a hard time believing that enought time could have been spent to get a good read on his play style and therefore will not consider it as a town tell.

[Skruffs]

Tony, how were you acting when you were close to lynch? Don't be hypocritical.good point about elias though, but elias spent a long time between day 3 and day 4 as guardian's heppybuddy. Where's your analysis of the game? And why so grumpy that town is starting to rule out suspects?

Vitamnr- busses day one.did it c&h, did it here. Tried to do it at endgame in mmh, but that's not the same. >.>

Most likely scumpairings in my eyes:
Vitr-thok
Vitr-tony
Elias-vitr
Ih-tony

[TonyMoonshine]

Tony, how were you acting when you were close to lynch? Don't be hypocritical

vote Skruffs

Prove that I am a hypocrite and don't just say it. Please provide post #'s. Otherwise take it back.

[TonyMoonshine]

And why so grumpy that town is starting to rule out suspects?

Because I haven't ruled out Guardian.

[Skruffs]

Ok, it's not looking good for me. I can see how my frustration can be seen as scummy play. If I'm lynched, hopefully it will shed some light on the game. Before the deadline, (or 5 votes) I will answer any questions and leave my list of who I think is town and scum.

You never left your list- you reumed an attack on vitr. Wasn't as desperate as guardian but there's definitely a plaintive cry for help in it. And you know what? That's okay.

Who was on that wagon, btw?

[TonyMoonshine]

Ok, it's not looking good for me. I can see how my frustration can be seen as scummy play. If I'm lynched, hopefully it will shed some light on the game. Before the deadline, (or 5 votes) I will answer any questions and leave my list of who I think is town and scum.

You never left your list- you reumed an attack on vitr. Wasn't as desperate as guardian but there's definitely a plaintive cry for help in it. And you know what? That's okay.

Who was on that wagon, btw?

Before I could leave my list my wagon had crumbled. And, not because of anything I said but the actions of others. I'm not going to show everyone my hand because I believe it benefits scum more than town. I've already called out vitr for doing this. Also, my furstration regarded Guardian's lengthy posts and the high # of drop outs. Regarding my attack on vitr, I'd rather be attacking than defending. It seems like Guardian has spent a lot of time on the defensive or providing a reason for his actions.

unvote

My previous vote was more out of anger and not clear thinking. I'm not sure where I want it right now.

I don't understand your last question.

[VitaminR]

specifically I feel like that you've been focusing on one player at a time in both places

In C&H, my approach was basically to pick out one player that no one was really going after and build a case against them (Erg0 and SV, in particular). I did that more to build up an aura of suspicion around them for later than anything else. Also, if you look at C&H, you'll see that I was never really clear about how I saw everyone at one particular moment. In this game (and I generally do this when I'm town), I've listed how I feel about everyone even when focusing on one player. I've made lynching roadmaps and things. I'm a bit more non-committal (like I guess towards the end of C&H) when I'm scum.

there are also some individual plays that also seem similar, in particular your play with mustafa here feels like your play with PJ there.)

In that I went from a town-gut feeling to accusing them? With PJ, that was actually sincere. It was Day 1 and I assumed two 2-person scum groups at the time.

I've also feel like you are protecting Guardian a bit too much (and I dislike that you've flat out said several times that you'd look at the Guardian arguments and then not done so.)

That's more a lack of time and the fact that I'm not really sure where to find all the relevant arguments, although I admit that the fact that I think Guardian town makes it a bit of a low priority.

[Skruffs]

Who was on the wagon on you that you felt a possible lynch happening?

[Elias_the_thief]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure (meta wise) that Guardian is clean. Games that I used are:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0 for a scum game

While I agree that Guardian is following his town metas, I don't believe his scum metas are fully reflected in the listed game. Guardian was forced into fake claiming cop by his 7th post. I'd like to think that has some influence on how he plays. (I'm probably overestimating this influence, but whatever.)

I'm looking for a better scum example as we speak. I'm going to try to meta a few more players too, I think it will help us out a bunch.

[Guardian]

Elias, my wiki has all four games I've ever been scum in, iirc. TBH, I think theoville is probably the best example.

Texas Justice is an OK example but it was very, very short.

[Skruffs]

VitaminR posted an eloquent response, refuting my points.
I still want him to hang, though.

Something about the way setael so eagerly voted ih when vitr agreed to vote him really has me piqued.

[Guardian]

The Setael thing makes me think VitaminR is town, not scum. Could you logically explain why you think it makes VitaminR scum?

[Skruffs]

Note to self: read around page 60.

Guardian didn't you at one point say something like 'vitr, setael, and me, we just need a townie' in regards to lynching IH? That's my memory, not an actual quote.

[Guardian]

I said those three and two more or something. I obviously wanted IH lynched. I don't remember what I said exactly.

But seriously, vote IH.

[Thok]

I said those three and two more or something. I obviously wanted IH lynched. I don't remember what I said exactly.

But seriously, vote IH.

I'm actually considering this (voting IH). But I want to look over a bunch of stuff.

@VitR-your response makes me feel a bit better about you, and I can sympathize about the not having enough time issue.

[Guardian]

I'm actually considering this (voting IH).

Good! Were you not "actually considering" it before?

But I want to look over a bunch of stuff.

Such as? Did you ever get to do your full re-read? Did my analysis of day one not make sense?

[Simenon]

Vote Count

IH (2)- VitaminR, Guardian
VitaminR (1)- Skruffs
Guardian (1)- IH