Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Flameaxe]

My thoughts: Kinetic doesn't pardon, we get two revealed roles, instead of one, but he won't be confirmed yet.

Honestly, having two reveals seems like a better option to me.

[Pie_is_good]

Khelv...

-If Kinetic were to be scum, he wouldn't be able to pardon his partners, obviously - he'd be too busy being scum to be the governor.

-Your analysis only works assuming equal odds of kinetic being scum and kinetic being town. The fact that kinetic was not counterclaimed makes him pretty unlikely to be scum.

[Khelvaster]

There are four possibilities on what could happen if we let Kinetic do what he wants:
Kinetic pardons: He is confirmed as town. We lose a tiny amount in effectively having a second cop investigation instead of a vig kill in the night, but that is still in the town's favor to have a confirmed townie and a killed Tar.

Yea, a tiny amount. You know, we effectively move the Armageddon Clock only one spot over. You still don't seem to understand that losing a lynch is a bad thing. A VERY bad thing. I almost am willing to let myself get lynched because LYNCHING ME IS MORE BENEFICIAL THAN FORCING ME TO USE MY ABILITY TO THE TOWN!

We aren't losing a lynch. We are converting the vig kill into a method of confirming you. The vig kill becomes a cop investigation. This is in addition to our normal investigation. We lose nothing.

Are you actually saying I would use my pardon ability on scum late game and this would prove I'm scum.

Seriously... WTF?

I didn't mean that...I haven't slept in over 24 hours. I was thinking what if you were scum and then you started pardoning your scumbuddies...yeah....just forget what I said.

Also, if Kinetic were to come out as scum, that would confirm me, since only one townie was dead n0 for scum to be able to claim a powerrole off of.

Does this mean you are now claiming a power role? I'm so confused. Are you or aren't you?

I am saying if you were unable to confirm yourself, that would make you scum. There was no governor counterclaim, so, as a result, I would come out as doc, since there was no doc counterclaim either.

Kinetic doesn't pardon, but he is governor: He is not confirmed. We gain a tiny amount on this night action because the vig can take out a scummy person (like, say, Guardian.) However, Kinetic will have to prove himself some point later in the game because of:

Kinetic doesn't pardon, and he is scum: He gets a free ride to the end of the game as an uncontested powerrole. When people finally start getting suspicious, it will be a bit too late. This wrecks the game for town.

This possibility exists. I can't lie and say it doesn't, but honestly I am pretty sure I will either have to prove myself later, or I will be NKed, or ...

Better now than later, since later you are more likely to form a majority if you are scum. Also, it's less random for the vig's kill later than now.

Kinetic doesn't pardon, and the cop investigates him: We get a vig kill, but use our cop investigation up on a powerrole. The vig kill isn't as important, IMO, as confirming people. This is slightly negative, but still manageable.

ROFL. I love how you

know

I will come up innocent that you don't even mention the possibility that I might be investigated and found out as scum. Maybe because you are scum and just slipped up because you know I'm town?

Last I checked, scum were powerroles too.

If, on the other hand, we make Kinetic pardon and he doesn't:
Kinetic gets NK's
Tar, who is almost definitely scum, is lynched
Guardian, who was retardedly into Kinetic is lynched d2

We get 3/3 scum.


The chance of the 3/3 scum is too powerful to turn down. Ever.

This is the craziest thing I've heard yet! You are completely butt fucking bonkers!

You are actually saying "There is a chance that these three people might be scum, so we HAVE to lynch/vig them, because there is that chance and we should always do this when there is that chance!"

Lies. What I am saying is "Tar is practically guaranteed scum because he was daring us to lynch him. Given that you are scum, Guardian has a very high chance of being scum. Therefore, we should kill Guardian if you are scum, and we should kill you if you are scum by not being able to do what you said you could."

It isn't 3/3 possible scum, the math of all three of us randomly being scum is actually 1 out of 2184! Where did you go to school where they told you these lies!

Yeah, misinterpret what I say again. I didn't say the chance was 3/3. I said we had a chance of getting 3/3, or, in words, "three out of three." This means 3 successes out of 3 tries.


WHAT FUCKING CIRCULAR LOGIC ARE YOU TRYING TO PULL!

You can't prove 2+2=5 by saying 5-2=2, and thus you are right! IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

[Kinetic]

There are four possibilities on what could happen if we let Kinetic do what he wants:
Kinetic pardons: He is confirmed as town. We lose a tiny amount in effectively having a second cop investigation instead of a vig kill in the night, but that is still in the town's favor to have a confirmed townie and a killed Tar.

Yea, a tiny amount. You know, we effectively move the Armageddon Clock only one spot over. You still don't seem to understand that losing a lynch is a bad thing. A VERY bad thing. I almost am willing to let myself get lynched because LYNCHING ME IS MORE BENEFICIAL THAN FORCING ME TO USE MY ABILITY TO THE TOWN!

We aren't losing a lynch. We are converting the vig kill into a method of confirming you. The vig kill becomes a cop investigation. This is in addition to our normal investigation. We lose nothing.

We are losing a lynch. Again, just because you say something, does not mean it is true. Stop using circular logic.

Are you actually saying I would use my pardon ability on scum late game and this would prove I'm scum.

Seriously... WTF?

I didn't mean that...I haven't slept in over 24 hours. I was thinking what if you were scum and then you started pardoning your scumbuddies...yeah....just forget what I said.

Then get some sleep and REALLY think about what you are saying. You are making no sense. It may be the most obvious here but everything you are saying right now makes no sense.

Also, if Kinetic were to come out as scum, that would confirm me, since only one townie was dead n0 for scum to be able to claim a powerrole off of.

Does this mean you are now claiming a power role? I'm so confused. Are you or aren't you?

I am saying if you were unable to confirm yourself, that would make you scum. There was no governor counterclaim, so, as a result, I would come out as doc, since there was no doc counterclaim either.

I am not unable to confirm myself, but like I said it is more complicated than that. The fact that two of the CLAIMED POWER ROLES, the two that are MOST CONFIRMABLE (Mason/Vig) both think it isn't a good idea to use my ability. If you don't believe me, look at that right there. If you really think that I am scum, then those two people CANNOT be scum and they agree with me! There is a reason I asked the four other claimed power roles to decide because AT LEAST 3 of them are not scum.

Also, you have continually frustrated the town by claiming doc, then not claiming doc. You keep backing out of your "claim", so YES I am VERY suspect if you are now claiming doctor AGAIN. Are you going to back out of it again in the next 24 hours?

Kinetic doesn't pardon, but he is governor: He is not confirmed. We gain a tiny amount on this night action because the vig can take out a scummy person (like, say, Guardian.) However, Kinetic will have to prove himself some point later in the game because of:

Kinetic doesn't pardon, and he is scum: He gets a free ride to the end of the game as an uncontested powerrole. When people finally start getting suspicious, it will be a bit too late. This wrecks the game for town.

This possibility exists. I can't lie and say it doesn't, but honestly I am pretty sure I will either have to prove myself later, or I will be NKed, or ...

Better now than later, since later you are more likely to form a majority if you are scum. Also, it's less random for the vig's kill later than now.

*facepalm* Now or Later, it still is bad for town. A little poison or a lot of poison is STILL poison!

Kinetic doesn't pardon, and the cop investigates him: We get a vig kill, but use our cop investigation up on a powerrole. The vig kill isn't as important, IMO, as confirming people. This is slightly negative, but still manageable.

ROFL. I love how you

know

I will come up innocent that you don't even mention the possibility that I might be investigated and found out as scum. Maybe because you are scum and just slipped up because you know I'm town?

Last I checked, scum were powerroles too.

So using the cop investigation to find scum is a bad thing in your opinion? I am lost. This sounds like you're trying to back track and say "Well I thought scum were power roles then too", but I know that you would have SAID scum if you MEANT scum there.

If, on the other hand, we make Kinetic pardon and he doesn't:
Kinetic gets NK's
Tar, who is almost definitely scum, is lynched
Guardian, who was retardedly into Kinetic is lynched d2

We get 3/3 scum.


The chance of the 3/3 scum is too powerful to turn down. Ever.

This is the craziest thing I've heard yet! You are completely butt fucking bonkers!

You are actually saying "There is a chance that these three people might be scum, so we HAVE to lynch/vig them, because there is that chance and we should always do this when there is that chance!"

Lies. What I am saying is "Tar is practically guaranteed scum because he was daring us to lynch him. Given that you are scum, Guardian has a very high chance of being scum. Therefore, we should kill Guardian if you are scum, and we should kill you if you are scum by not being able to do what you said you could."

So how is Tar more worthy of lynching than Guardian now?

If you really are so sure that Tar "practically guaranteed scum", why do you have a problem lynching him, voting him, or even commenting about the wagon that Tar is not a bad lynch. No, instead you continue this one-man crusade against Guardian.

It isn't 3/3 possible scum, the math of all three of us randomly being scum is actually 1 out of 2184! Where did you go to school where they told you these lies!

Yeah, misinterpret what I say again. I didn't say the chance was 3/3. I said we had a chance of getting 3/3, or, in words, "three out of three." This means 3 successes out of 3 tries.

[sarcasm]And here I thought the town intentionally tries and mislynch someone who they think is town. I'm sorry, your superior logic overwhelms me. [/sarcasm]

Of course I WANT to get 3 scum out of 3 tries, but you can't say that ONLY your way has a chance of doing that, so there fore we HAVE to do it your way.

I am also trying to get 3 scum out of 3 tries, but I don't agree with who you think is scum. Stop thinking only your way is the ONLY way.

[Guardian]

I'm just gonna say this, and it will probably be ignored, but I want to say this:

MoS, being your mason buddy would be hella coolies if you don't have one .


oh and re: the above, I agree with Kinetic and Pie and there are a few more things I wasn't sure if they brought up but I don't feel like reading more carefully because they've done a great job of demonstrating Khelvaster's argument's ridiculousness.

[CoolBot]

Oh, by the way, I expect the doc to protect me tonight, if I am not the doc. The mafia is 50/50 between me being doc and me not being doc, and if they think I am not doc, they will 50/50 between vig and cop. That makes 50/25/25, with me being 50%. Make the right choice. Protect me

Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum.

If I were the vig, khel would not survive the night. He's clearly trying to draw the doc protection away from the cop/vig just so he can survive.

And FWIW, I don't think Kinetic needs to pardon Tar. Losing a lynch is bad, even if we have a vig to back it up.

[Gorrad]

Yeah, I agree with Kinetic, a pardon really isn't needed at this point (yeah, I know I've been puching for one, so sue me Kinetic's conviced otherwise.). I'd like to see one relatively soon, since I do suspect him somewhat for reasons I said earlier, but it's not needed today.

Also, can I quote you on that 2+2=5 thing? I think that might be a future sig.

[Tarhalindur]

Just let me die and be done with it.

[Kinetic]

lol@Gorrad, sure, just make sure to give me credit .

[Skruffs]

I would say please please do not pardon, lynching is, again, one of town's only assets, we NEED the information, and if Tar is scum, it frees up the vig to go after someone else. Either town loses's it's lynch or vig loses it's kill, basically. >.<

[Skruffs]

I am considering this game a race to eliminate possible scum before scum eliminate helpful power roles. So wasiting a lynch now, is bad sense. We can deal with the "possible scum governor" after most of hte other choices are eliminated. Don't tie up town's only options on something like this, please.

[Khelvaster]

Jesus Christ...We aren't wasting a lynch. We are losing a vig kill. Get this through your heads. A cop is more important than a vig--everyone will agree upon that. As such, I would assume a one-night-cop is better than a one-night vig.

[Guardian]

Jesus Christ...We aren't wasting a lynch. We are losing a vig kill. Get this through your heads. A cop is more important than a vig--everyone will agree upon that.

No, everyone pretty much disagrees -- in this setup, coping Kinetic is MUCH LESS important than not wasting a town kill.

As such, I would assume a one-night-cop is better than a one-night vig.

Nope..............................................................................

[Tarhalindur]

Hell, I disagree, and I'm the guy getting lynched!

I'm pretty sure that Khel's logic is scumlogic, but that's something for Flameaxe to take care of, not me (yet another reason for not pardoning me).

[Yosarian2]

Jesus Christ...We aren't wasting a lynch. We are losing a vig kill. Get this through your heads. A cop is more important than a vig--everyone will agree upon that.

No, everyone pretty much disagrees -- in this setup, coping Kinetic is MUCH LESS important than not wasting a town kill.

Um, no, you're pretty much the only one who's been insisting that, Guardian. Finding out Kinetic's alignment once and for all would be quite useful, not the least of reasons being that it might help in figuring out your alignment.

[CoolBot]

As such, I would assume a one-night-cop is better than a one-night vig.

How is that even relevant? You've been going on a bit about a pardon magically turns a vig kill into a cop investigation, but that's not true. Kinetic verifies himself with a pardon regardless of what the vig does, and we learn the vig's target's role regardless of what Kinetic does. Just one more piece of crap logic on your part.

And Yosarian, I agree with Guardian here. A lynch is more valuable than Kinetic proving himself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kinetic, do not pardon.

[Kinetic]

Well unless IH says

something

the people who I said I would listen are currently voting 2-1 to not pardon. At this point, that is what I will do unless I hear from IH in the near future.

[Khelvaster]

Well, considering the evidence, I guess not pardoning is ok...

Also, if the vig killed the lynch target and kinetic pardoned the lynch target, the vig's kill would be sacrificed for confirming Kinetic's role, magically transforming his kill into an investigationg. That is goodlogic, not scumlogic.

[CoolBot]

How? Just who is the vig investigating? Kinetic? No, we'd know if when the pardon goes through or not. The target? No, he's dead and we'd learn his role , regardless of any pardon.

[ShadowLurker]

You guys will have until 10pm EDT minimum tomorrow.

[Kinetic]

Its 7 PM EDT right now.

IH, I'm waiting on you. If I don't get a response in the next 2 hours I'm going to send SL a No-Pardon order and have Tar hung.

[ShadowLurker]

After a long long debate, Tarhalindur goes NO HOPE and volunteers himself to be lynched. The town quickly agrees, thankful to come to any decision and they quickly string up Tarhalindur. After they lynch him, they fish in his pocket and take out his wallet. His ID card clearly reads TOWNIE. Oops.

It is now Night 1! Send choices! The night will not end until Sefer either picks up his prod or is replaced.

[Primate]

Nightkill: Skruffs

[ShadowLurker]

Sir Tornado replaces Sefer