Mini Normal 1775 END!

[mhsmith0]

Actually...
UNVOTE: Almost50
I'd by lying if I said I town read you right now (I still lean scum on you), but I'm liking your response (and the reasons you gave for town reading Sakura's behavior I think make sense, although I still wish you'd just said why earlier), and the stench of scummy bullshit from Lowell and Chilledtea is just too strong. My vote belongs on one of them, now I just need to decide which one.

[chilledtea]

I've already said why your post regarding Almost was a joke. Almost hasn't really done anything worth considering scummy in this game. Vote whipping is a valid strategy.

"Try harder" I don't need to. You haven't even given any reason to consider a50 scum. When you do, I will "try harder". Quoting pseudo-random posts from the thread and assigning random reasons to them stating how x is scum because of it isn't "evidence" or "proof", it is nonsense.

I see that now context is suddenly important huh. Well, if you actually cared about what was happening, then his so called "empty votes" were pretty much necessary. You think there is "theory" behind everything, but actually most of the game is your ability to properly understand motives.

You ask why anyone would consider Boon to be scum for saying he has to attend a party? Well, if you understood context, you would have known that a50 was probably already considering him scummy because of his vote on Knight earlier. And then his attempt at escaping from explaining himself by giving some random excuse which we cannot verify anyways doesn't suddenly make him town.

His vote whipping on Lowell was to create discussion by force. Completely support him on that. If there is a lurker, an attempt to lynch him brings him out of the woods most of the time. Easiest way for scum to escape suspicion is to lurk while town blabber at each other whole day and then join them when it is time for voting/lynching.

I did spell out why I suddenly thought you were scum. Your reasons regarding A50 were nonsense. It also felt to me that you were playing the "noob" card, which in hindsight you probably weren't.

As far the vote going back on Lowell is concerned, well, he is definitely scum read of mine. The only reason I felt a little bit better about him was he was the first person to mention you as scum putting up an act and your post regarding almost50 almost looked like an act to me.

[chilledtea]

To put further light on why I thought smith is scum - He put a giant wall of "evidence" which just felt like scum trying to put an act of scumhunting. In hindsight, it could just be unexperienced town or just tunnelling town. It could also be scummy town.

[Sakura Hana]

@Sakura: My intuition is that "trying to achieve town unity" is null, not town. I think there's a lot of room for scum to hide behind "town unity" since they have to make fewer decisions, and can potentially fake their way into that "town unity" group. And I'd read A50's efforts along those lines as fake. I owe him a re-read given his responses.
PS If you think my theory here on "town unity" efforts being null is bunk, please let me know why. I've put effort into learning theory, but it's entirely possible I've missed something important.

There's 2 major things:

The first is that chaos benefits scum, when town runs around like headless chickens the chance of mislynches are far greater, so any scum trying to achieve town unity on their own are playing against their win condition and cornering themselves into more trouble later (since they will get found out anyways with PoE and all that), there's literally no late game benefit for scum to do this so early since they reduce their possible mislynches and help town get together.

The second, is that as much as what anything is said, technically everything can be faked, tho it depends on the skill of the player at lying.

Now, on the other subject, the votes you've been complaining about for "being only for pressure", regardless of what the player's intent is behind a vote, a vote is a vote, a vote indicates you want the player dead, and a player with a large ammount of votes on them is going to show their true colors (this was mentioned earlier by A50, but i reiterate it because apparently it has gotten in your head yet), you cant achieve a large ammount of votes without town unity, because if everyone pursues only their scumreads i doubt anyone would go beyond 3 votes.

What A50 has done is not only this, has also explained the reasoning why he's doing it, he's also explained why the player he's voting needs to be pressured and he's also explained that town needs to achieve unity. These are the characteristics of a town member, scum hunting, by getting town together to add pressure and analysing after.

Now let's look at Lowell, which is similar but different, he also intends to achieve wagons going, however he's not achieving them for the purpose of analysing the player he's achieving them for the purpose of killing the player and... as you may have already noticed, ending the day early with barely any discussion, notice how he jumped at me and scumread me when i pointed out that we still had time and there was no need to rush, it is 100% a scum mindset trying to make others think that the way he's doing things is right... oh also the fact that he seems like impossible to lynch, because, you know, scum has these things called partners.

Now a question for you, what is the issue with putting a player you're scumreading at L-2? Despite he saying that the player needs more pressure (i.e. Lowell) it's a fact that he's stated that you need to vote the player with the largest wagon whom you are scumreading, that's his way of thinking, while i usually dont vote someone unless I have no issues seeing that player dead, that doesnt mean everyone has to think that way, for instance, when Madonna specified that votes arent meant for reaction tests, etc but for killing the player, you disagreed.

tl;dr: A50 doesnt get much benefit from doing what he's doing as scum because it'll hurt him lategame. Differentiate the difference between a difference in alignment and a difference in playstyle.

Sorry that ended up way longer than intended, but i wanted to make my point clear.
I'll probably will move back to Lowell but i need to review everyone else.

[Lowell]

Actually...
UNVOTE: Almost50
I'd by lying if I said I town read you right now (I still lean scum on you), but I'm liking your response (and the reasons you gave for town reading Sakura's behavior I think make sense, although I still wish you'd just said why earlier), and the stench of scummy bullshit from Lowell and Chilledtea is just too strong. My vote belongs on one of them, now I just need to decide which one.

All this guy can do is OMGUS. Look, we all want to believe newb is town and can be taught, but it's clear his motivation is self-preservation rather than scumhunting. That he does the former while pretending to do the latter is not a bonus.

[mhsmith0]

@Sakura: Essentially, the problem I had with A50 was that I couldn't tell if he was actually scum reading lowell or just "vote and see what happens", and the latter read to me like non-genuine / tactical voting, which I considered scummy behavior. Given the context described, I'm rethinking that interpretation.

As far as Madonna goes, on 182 I was questioning whether her perspective holds together. She seemed to be saying that reaction test votes weren't legitimate. But if that's the case, then why wasn't she doing anything about A50 explicitly doing just that? I read her behavior as inconsistent with her stated mindset/theory. And I found that inconsistency to be suspicious. Not that the theory itself was necessarily wrong. She subsequently answered that question at 204, and while I didn't find the answer super convincing, I did think it was plausible.

PS My intuition is to agree with you that if things stay chaotic indefinitely, that probably helps scum. But if we're just unifying artificially early D1, I'm not sure that's as helpful as you think it is. Then again, seeing what happened when the lowell wagon built steam gives a lot of credit to your theory.

PPS I don't mind the length at all, it helps me understand where you're coming from.

PPPS Any comments on the interactions between CT and me just now? It felt non-genuine from CT, both the vote on me and the sudden "never mind I'm back on lowell" shift (I need to take a step back and re-evaluate if I'm being fair to CT there, along with a larger re-read, before I pursue things further, but that's my current take). If the idea is to see what happens when the lowell wagon gets serious... well, CT's behavior was certainly the first thing that happened. And I definitely feel like that needs to be evaluated.

[mhsmith0]

Actually...
UNVOTE: Almost50
I'd by lying if I said I town read you right now (I still lean scum on you), but I'm liking your response (and the reasons you gave for town reading Sakura's behavior I think make sense, although I still wish you'd just said why earlier), and the stench of scummy bullshit from Lowell and Chilledtea is just too strong. My vote belongs on one of them, now I just need to decide which one.

All this guy can do is OMGUS. Look, we all want to believe newb is town and can be taught, but it's clear his motivation is self-preservation rather than scumhunting. That he does the former while pretending to do the latter is not a bonus.

Clarify your theory about how I'm acting for self-preservation. The only vote on me is you. CT voted and then unvoted (but who knows, maybe he'll randomly come back?), no one else seems to be scum reading me, and multiple players (off the top of my head, boon and knight) have been town reading me. That you think I'm currently in any meaningful danger of being lynched is either lazy or intentional misreading. In neither case am I impressed.

Also, clarify how I'm pretending to scum hunt. What have I done that is non-genuine or otherwise indicative of fake scum hunting? Evidence is helpful. Unsubstantiated aspersions are not.

PS @Everyone else: this reads to me like an advance "an MHS vote on me is just OMGUS and therefore illegitimate" play. Color me unimpressed.

PPS Per 330, I'm not impressed with your response. And I'm switching my vote. VOTE: Lowell. I'm also satisfied with a CT wagon.

This is now at L-2 again.

[knightmare]

He did the same when I called him scum earlier as well.

@Lowell - I'm starting to think you don't want to answer my question. What is your opinion on Madonna?

[Lowell]

slight townlean, I guess. Not one of the people who I've really thought about. But yeah in ISO, town I guess.

[Boonskiies]

This Lowell wagon makes me uneasy...

[Lowell]

yeah, because it's dumb. honestly no one believes I'm scum, they just think "meh, he's sort of annoying, and better him than me... sure I can live with that."

[mhsmith0]

yeah, because it's dumb. honestly no one believes I'm scum, they just think "meh, he's sort of annoying, and better him than me... sure I can live with that."

Not to mention that two of the five votes on the bus (knight and me) are apparently just OMGUS

More seriously, there are reasons people are voting you, and being dismissive and reductionist about those reasons is the opposite of engaging with things honestly. Is there a town reason for this approach? The scum reason for it seems obvious.

@Boon: Is there something specific about the wagon you don't like? The reasoning behind the votes? The popularity of the bus? CT's "off then back on" move? Lowell's behavior somehow reading town? etc.

[Boonskiies]

Lowell just seems like that typical fall guy who gets lynched for no real reasons Day 1. His playstyle looks like an easy wagon, and I just feel it's scum driven.

[Boonskiies]

Looks like he's been here since 2006, too, so it's not just like...easily caught out due to inexperience.

[Boonskiies]

I don't know; do what you want with the wagon, I'm not going to be a part of it, though.

[mhsmith0]

@boon: Theoretically I like that point! Easy fall guys are always too easy for comfort. HOWEVER, what makes you think that Lowell is "easy fall guy" instead of "flailing caught scum guy"? I feel like there should be something meaningful that suggests one of the following:

1) Lowell is dumb rather than scum (or some other mislynch bait indicator from his play)
2) There are people on Lowell who are BS'ing their lazy cases
3) There are scum sitting on the sidelines ready to join the lazy lynch

Which of those things do you think is the case? "Oh it's too easy" is a starting point of an argument. Move past that and start working on WHY you think it's too easy. Maybe start with "for no real reason"? Which among the votes on Lowell sounds fake or lazy to you?

[mhsmith0]

I don't know; do what you want with the wagon, I'm not going to be a part of it, though.

Dislike. If you don't like the wagon, take a meaningful stand against it. Try and convince us we're wrong. Show us you're invested in what happens with the D1 lynch. "meh I don't care do whatever you want just don't blame me" does not make me a happy camper. Not at all

[Boonskiies]

I mean, I'm not town reading Lowell. I don't like Day 1's. Common Boon knowledge. I have pushed my case on the lynch I want.

[Boonskiies]

And to the easyfallguy or caught flailing scum, I really couldn't tell you. He could be flailing scum, but nobody was considering the easy fall guy, so same question to you all.

[Boonskiies]

I think the lack of that was what made me uneasy.

[Sakura Hana]

And I have pushed a town case against the lynch you want which you never replied to.

[mhsmith0]

I actually find the "here since 2006" argument shades against the "easy fall guy" point. I would think he'd learn how to avoid that by now. I don't mind re-reading the cases against Lowell to see if anything looks odd, but I feel my case against him is solid. His behavior has to me reeked of scum, not of lazy mislynch bait.

[Sakura Hana]

Other than that...
Sayaka
Expedience
texcat

What have these people done?

Sayaka hasn't had any scumreads since she started townreading Knight, and the only worthwhile things she's done is her explanation of why knightmare was scum way back then and why im town.
I haven't seen Expedience do anything other than present his reasoning for me scum after a naked vote
And i cant remember a thing texcat's done.

[mhsmith0]

@Sakura: is that at me or Boon? I'm thinking Boon but please let me know if you're talking to me. I just looked at your ISO and I don't think I saw the town case against the Lowell lynch. 353 was against the A50 vote, 342 was mainly "I find most of the scumreads nonsensical" without seeming to be Lowell specific.

[Boonskiies]

Fair enough.

@Sakura - I made my points; you made yours. What else is there to say about it now.

I'm actually a little sketched out by texcat.