Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Toaster Strudel]

...which applies to you as well, TS.

Actually, I might have felt more involved in the game if, even for a day, I had a say one way or another.

[Yosarian2]

...which applies to you as well, TS.

Actually, I might have felt more involved in the game if, even for a day, I had a say one way or another.

The thing is, unless you were more involved in the game, there was no way you were ever going to BE king. Dispite the fact that half the pro-town players suspected me at one point or another (I'm kind of proud and kind of surprised I managed to not get executed dispite having Glork, MOS, RafK, VitimanR, and most of the rest of the active pro-town players attacking me pretty agressivly at one time or another), I became king twice, just because I was somewhat active and trying, and no one who's not active and trying will ever be or should ever be made king. And I wasn't even all THAT active, by my normal standards.

[Thok]

I wasn't going to make someone king who was advocating just randomly killing bitches, which applies to you as well, TS.

I think you needed to actually say something like this in the thread (possibily in a hypothetical third person, but possibly with you claiming; I think the day Thesp was going after you and Cavane it might have been appropriate to claim and say this). If people realized that participating more would help them become King, they'd be more inclined to participate.

As a side note, the above paragraph explains why votes matter in this game. While you may not have much ability to influence the King, you have a decent chance to convince a Kingmaker to make you King if he agrees with your voting record.

I'm shocked anybody is surprised by Fritz's play as a hero. Heck, I'm shocked nobody really thought about who a hypothetical hero would be.

[Toaster Strudel]

...which applies to you as well, TS.

Actually, I might have felt more involved in the game if, even for a day, I had a say one way or another.

The thing is, unless you were more involved in the game, there was no way you were ever going to BE king.

It's a catch-22. Had I been somewhat more active, say, as active as you, I might not have been king anyway. I got trapped in mind-numbing boredom I guess. The pointlessness of it all.

Influencing the king? First off, the King might have been scum so what's the point, and with multiple useless votes, there was too much garbage information to go through trying to find the actual scum - and if you're right on and have actually found scum, you get nightkilled. Yawn. But then how assiduously can you go after a player, when the "evidence" is so diffuse and muddled?

The "pro" of being totally useless is that you don't get nightkilled... which in this game was not much of an advantage.

[VitaminR]

The thing is, unless you were more involved in the game, there was no way you were ever going to BE king. Dispite the fact that half the pro-town players suspected me at one point or another (I'm kind of proud and kind of surprised I managed to not get executed dispite having Glork, MOS, RafK, VitimanR, and most of the rest of the active pro-town players attacking me pretty agressivly at one time or another), I became king twice, just because I was somewhat active and trying, and no one who's not active and trying will ever be or should ever be made king. And I wasn't even all THAT active, by my normal standards.

I don't think I ever attacked you much. I did think you were scum at the end, though.

Somewhere during the day I replaced in, I made a promise to myself that I would execute PJ within a couple of posts if I were made king. I actually kept quiet about my suspicions of him for quite some time (I think I revealed it only when someone asked me about it directly) out of fear of not being considered a candidate for king because of it. I was certain he was scum.

[Glork]

PJ should've been executed a long time ago, after Pooky basically bailed him out when I was going after him early on. I even expressed suspicion for him on D3 for unrelated reasons, yet nobody else seemed to give him much attention.



Oh wells. At least I remained the Perfect King.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...which applies to you as well, TS.

Actually, I might have felt more involved in the game if, even for a day, I had a say one way or another.

I made

324 posts

in this game, and I never even became king. I was actually

less

active once I became Kingmaker. The fact that you never had a say is no excuse to lurk and take potshots at people without really trying.

[Toaster Strudel]

The fact that you never had a say is no excuse to lurk and take potshots at people without really trying.

You can call it an excuse, I call it a reason.

[Simenon]

TS should have been treated like a one-shot day vig.

[Mr. Flay]

I think there is an offsetting factor in the fact that the King will tend to make a better decision than the entirety of the town. If you make Glork or Jelly (except if they're evil scums) King, you're going to get some pretty good returns.

But isn't that the reason for all the lurking? people relying on Glork and Jelly to give them the scums and not doing anything themselves? Not to mention it being extremely easy for the scum to only have to convince one or two that they are protown due to the reliance on that few.

Without having read the whole game, this seems to be accurate (Oman, not Zindy). Collective wisdom only avoids scum push of bad lynches, but it's awfully swingy...

[Zindaras]

I had some small suspicions regarding PJ, but then I died.

[Thesp]

Well done, scum. Wow, there sure were a lot of you.

Particular kudos to petroleumjelly and Yosarian2, both of whom payed exceedingly well for their sides. I also thought Pablito did exceedingly well, which allowed me a latitude of freedom I enjoyed.

I am surprised that RafK didn't kill Cavane, whom I thought was definitely scum. I was also surprised Dead Rikimaru was made king, and looking back, very surprised he was still alive while I was. (Why didn't I go after him more? the LL execution was

terrible

.)

I'd figured out MoS was kingmaker, but only by the night I was killed. A lot of good that did me. =P

PJ was my second choice just because he was the only competent choice I had.

Pro-town >>> competent.

Yea, there was no point in voting in this setup. Still don't understand why Thesp thought I was scum, though. :/

Most of your actions were deliberately anti-town, and you looked like you were trying tohide who you were actually suspicious of. I've got to stop confusing sub-optimal play on your part as scummy. (Why obfuscate votes and how you felt? Why ignore everyone when they say it's

not

obvious who you want to swing? You corrected this later on, and looked a lot less scummy for it - I just didn't understand it.)

I understand Toaster Strudel's frustration in the game, while disagreeing on the non-significance of voting. Voting is a much clearer way of determining where people stand, particularly when you have a 100+ page game, it helps in reconstructing how people stood. I think the aversion to voting hampered town efforts.

I was pretty perplexed by Fritzler's play, and think he also significantly hurt the town in this game.

I think this game brought out more of the bad in players than the good. I don't think I'd play in another.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Glorkie broke my heart when he killed me

I thought we were buds forever

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'd figured out MoS was kingmaker, but only by the night I was killed. A lot of good that did me. =P

PJ was my second choice just because he was the only competent choice I had.

Pro-town >>> competent.

Incompetent possible town <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< competent possible town

Yea, there was no point in voting in this setup. Still don't understand why Thesp thought I was scum, though. :/

Most of your actions were deliberately anti-town, and you looked like you were trying tohide who you were actually suspicious of. I've got to stop confusing sub-optimal play on your part as scummy. (Why obfuscate votes and how you felt? Why ignore everyone when they say it's

not

obvious who you want to swing? You corrected this later on, and looked a lot less scummy for it - I just didn't understand it.)

I completely disagree. I never deliberately acted against the town's best interest. In fact, I was more open in my opinions than most people. Even though I didn't vote, I

very clearly

said phrases such as "I would support a -name- execution", "I want -name- to die", and "-name- is very likely scum". In fact, I did a full analysis on nearly everyone in the game, giving my personal opinion on each individual I covered. That is definitely not anti-town and

definitely

not hiding who I was suspicious of. All of this happened well before you replaced into the game. Not voting changed nothing.

I would've made you king if I didn't think you were going to execute me. You were arguing such an uphill case I didn't think any scum would set themselves up like that.

[Thok]

I would've made you king if I didn't think you were going to execute me. You were arguing such an uphill case I didn't think any scum would set themselves up like that.

Dear MOS,

You are the Kingmaker. A protown player will never actually execute you, since you can claim Kingmaker.

[Shanba]

I would've made you king if I didn't think you were going to execute me. You were arguing such an uphill case I didn't think any scum would set themselves up like that.

Dear MOS,

You are the Kingmaker. A protown player will never actually execute you, since you can claim Kingmaker.

QFT. It occurred to me about halfway through the second day I was king that I could whatever the hell I liked.

[Thesp]

Incompetent possible town <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< competent possible town

Both Toaster Strudel and whomever replaced Lowell were clearly pro-town, regardless of competency. I also thought TS was fairly competent this game, just frustrated.

Yea, there was no point in voting in this setup. Still don't understand why Thesp thought I was scum, though. :/

Most of your actions were deliberately anti-town, and you looked like you were trying tohide who you were actually suspicious of. I've got to stop confusing sub-optimal play on your part as scummy. (Why obfuscate votes and how you felt? Why ignore everyone when they say it's

not

obvious who you want to swing? You corrected this later on, and looked a lot less scummy for it - I just didn't understand it.)

I completely disagree. I never deliberately acted against the town's best interest. In fact, I was more open in my opinions than most people. Even though I didn't vote, I

very clearly

said phrases such as "I would support a -name- execution", "I want -name- to die", and "-name- is very likely scum". In fact, I did a full analysis on nearly everyone in the game, giving my personal opinion on each individual I covered. That is definitely not anti-town and

definitely

not hiding who I was suspicious of. All of this happened well before you replaced into the game. Not voting changed nothing.

It wasn't clear who you actually wanted dead at so many point in the game -

several people said this a number of times.

I guess I don't see

why it was so important to you not to vote.

I would've made you king if I didn't think you were going to execute me. You were arguing such an uphill case I didn't think any scum would set themselves up like that.

That's in part how I figured out you were Kingmaker.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would've made you king if I didn't think you were going to execute me. You were arguing such an uphill case I didn't think any scum would set themselves up like that.

Dear MOS,

You are the Kingmaker. A protown player will never actually execute you, since you can claim Kingmaker.

I didn't particularly want to force myself to claim. That seemed silly, because then I'm setting myself up to die. *shrug* Call it selfishness if you want, but I didn't really see a reason to *ask* to be killed.

Incompetent possible town <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< competent possible town

Both Toaster Strudel and whomever replaced Lowell were clearly pro-town, regardless of competency. I also thought TS was fairly competent this game, just frustrated.

Actually, I felt that Lowell had a good chance at being scum, since he was acting very much as he did in Mafia 61, when he was my scumbuddy. TS didn't seem competent at all, I find it hard to think anyone competent who doesn't provide reasons for anything.

Yea, there was no point in voting in this setup. Still don't understand why Thesp thought I was scum, though. :/

Most of your actions were deliberately anti-town, and you looked like you were trying tohide who you were actually suspicious of. I've got to stop confusing sub-optimal play on your part as scummy. (Why obfuscate votes and how you felt? Why ignore everyone when they say it's

not

obvious who you want to swing? You corrected this later on, and looked a lot less scummy for it - I just didn't understand it.)

I completely disagree. I never deliberately acted against the town's best interest. In fact, I was more open in my opinions than most people. Even though I didn't vote, I

very clearly

said phrases such as "I would support a -name- execution", "I want -name- to die", and "-name- is very likely scum". In fact, I did a full analysis on nearly everyone in the game, giving my personal opinion on each individual I covered. That is definitely not anti-town and

definitely

not hiding who I was suspicious of. All of this happened well before you replaced into the game. Not voting changed nothing.

It wasn't clear who you actually wanted dead at so many point in the game -

several people said this a number of times.

I guess I don't see

why it was so important to you not to vote.

Several people did say this. They said it while they were attacking me over and over again. I completely debunked their arguments, and no one attacked me again until you replaced into the game. Not voting was just something I did on a whim, but it's not like it changed anything. Votes don't mean anything in this setup. With an unlimited amount of votes, there is no way to differentiate who you prefer more to be lynched. If we had a concordet voting system, votes *might* mean something, even though we couldn't lynch anyone. As it is, you have to explain all your votes anyways so that people know what your preferences are among the people you voted. I was doing this anyway, without the voting part, since it was unnecessary. I was already explaining my preferences without placing a vote in the first place.

[Thesp]

Yea, there was no point in voting in this setup. Still don't understand why Thesp thought I was scum, though. :/

Most of your actions were deliberately anti-town, and you looked like you were trying tohide who you were actually suspicious of. I've got to stop confusing sub-optimal play on your part as scummy. (Why obfuscate votes and how you felt? Why ignore everyone when they say it's

not

obvious who you want to swing? You corrected this later on, and looked a lot less scummy for it - I just didn't understand it.)

I completely disagree. I never deliberately acted against the town's best interest. In fact, I was more open in my opinions than most people. Even though I didn't vote, I

very clearly

said phrases such as "I would support a -name- execution", "I want -name- to die", and "-name- is very likely scum". In fact, I did a full analysis on nearly everyone in the game, giving my personal opinion on each individual I covered. That is definitely not anti-town and

definitely

not hiding who I was suspicious of. All of this happened well before you replaced into the game. Not voting changed nothing.

It wasn't clear who you actually wanted dead at so many point in the game -

several people said this a number of times.

I guess I don't see

why it was so important to you not to vote.

Several people did say this. They said it while they were attacking me over and over again. I completely debunked their arguments, and no one attacked me again until you replaced into the game. Not voting was just something I did on a whim, but it's not like it changed anything. Votes don't mean anything in this setup. With an unlimited amount of votes, there is no way to differentiate who you prefer more to be lynched. If we had a concordet voting system, votes *might* mean something, even though we couldn't lynch anyone. As it is, you have to explain all your votes anyways so that people know what your preferences are among the people you voted. I was doing this anyway, without the voting part, since it was unnecessary. I was already explaining my preferences without placing a vote in the first place.

You still haven't answered the question.

Why was it so important to you to not vote?

(I still disagree re: "debunking", but that's okay.)

[Mastermind of Sin]

It wasn't. I just said in the beginning that I wasn't going to vote, so I didn't. It wasn't important other than that I wanted to. But it still wasn't necessary for me to vote to get my points across. Not voting was just more my way of protesting the Kingmaker setup anyway.

[Thesp]

It wasn't. I just said in the beginning that I wasn't going to vote, so I didn't. It wasn't important other than that I wanted to. But it still wasn't necessary for me to vote to get my points across. Not voting was just more my way of protesting the Kingmaker setup anyway.

Then why be so seemingly stubborn about it, when you could have gotten rid of the distraction by doing something that was admittedly insignificant to you (placing votes)? It

did

seem important to you not to vote, at least, more important than distracting everyone else (myself included) from focusing on others. Also, if you're protesting the Kingmaker setup,

why join it in the first place?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because it wasn't until the game had already started that I realized entirely what the game entailed. I didn't think it would be that bad not being able to lynch, and I hadn't read the first game.

As I said, since votes didn't matter, I made a personal promise to myself to never vote the entire game. It shouldn't have been that big of a deal past D1 or D2, since I explained myself fully.

[Thesp]

Because it wasn't until the game had already started that I realized entirely what the game entailed. I didn't think it would be that bad not being able to lynch, and I hadn't read the first game.

As I said, since votes didn't matter, I made a personal promise to myself to never vote the entire game. It shouldn't have been that big of a deal past D1 or D2, since I explained myself fully.

This seems very silly.

[mnowax]

By the way, I think KM 1 and KM 2 show that we need to work on the setup a bit. Just sayin'.

KM1 had too many confirmed townies.

KM2 had more scum and no roles to balance that and in the end was a mountainous with too much scum.:p

Actually, significantly worse then a mountanious.

And again, this game is yet another good example of why all lurkers need to die. Out of the 3 scum at endgame, 2 were lurkerscum, and lurkers that had previously been replaced for lurking multiple times at that. Nearly every game I've lost as town recently, it's been partly because of lurkerscum...

I absoultely agree with the lurkers should die. I am always usually on the case when it comes to that. The unfortunate part about this particular game is that I was a replacement to three pther people that ALL lurked. I knew that the only way i could get out with my head stilll intact was to lurk. I willl not say that me lurking was right or wrong, but it was definitely a survival tactic. like i said before, i only believe that the amount of heat on myself/DR was so great i think it was an achievement in of itself to make it to endgame.

Yea. I think we can all agree that mnowax didn't deserve this win.

Why is that? Dead scum win just as much as alive scum. I don't deserve this win because i wasn't executed?

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, I think you don't deserve this win because you were completely worthless the entire game, in BOTH of your roles. Worthless people don't deserve a win, even if they get it. Not playing the game is NOT a valid tactic, and that's what you did. You

purposefully

avoided playing the game, and you even admit to it. I rest my case.