Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[Streeflo]

Lucienne

, who has not posted in 4 days, and

Elias_the_Thief

have been prodded.

Votecount is still the same.

[dybeck]

If we're going to give originality that much freedom, we'd be better off just letting him have a free hand.

Anything else does not give us the benefit of controlling a possible scum, but does give the other scum group info about his actions that they really don't need to have.

I say we either give orig a specific order, or we give him a free hand and remind him that at least one of us has his eyes on him.

[vollkan]

If we're going to give originality that much freedom, we'd be better off just letting him have a free hand.

Anything else does not give us the benefit of controlling a possible scum, but does give the other scum group info about his actions that they really don't need to have.

I say we either give orig a specific order, or we give him a free hand and remind him that at least one of us has his eyes on him.

You say "If we give Orig this much freedom we'd be better off giving him a free hand". What would be the ideal scenario for you then?

[shaft.ed]

I think giving orig too much freedom actually plays into scum hands. Given his presumably poor decision in killing Carrotcake, the scum may run a "leave him alive" gambit in which they can bet on originality screwing it up for himself and using poor discretion possibly killing a townie. If orig is in fact pro-town, which I am leaning towards, and he gets us into such a situation it's undoubtedly a town loss. Therefore, if orig kills anyone not in the top 3 and they come up town, I'm autovoting. I obviously can't control the rest of the towns votes, but this is my position on the matter.

vollkan, You are obviously the most outspoken opponent of dybeck. I too see a number of scum tells coming from him, but I can also interperet a lot of his play as a frustrated townie that adamantly thinks the lynching of orig is the only logical play for the town. I also find Oman's more erratic and somewhat opprotunistc play to be more what I'd expect from scum given that being as single-minded as dybeck has been can work very much against him, especially if orig were to come up town post-lynching. Do you have any reasons that I should implicitly think dybeck to be scum and not a stubborn townie adamant in his own conclusion? Because as of now I'm more comfortable with an Oman lynch.

[vollkan]

I think giving orig too much freedom actually plays into scum hands. Given his presumably poor decision in killing Carrotcake, the scum may run a "leave him alive" gambit in which they can bet on originality screwing it up for himself and using poor discretion possibly killing a townie. If orig is in fact pro-town, which I am leaning towards, and he gets us into such a situation it's undoubtedly a town loss. Therefore, if orig kills anyone not in the top 3 and they come up town, I'm autovoting. I obviously can't control the rest of the towns votes, but this is my position on the matter.

That's fine. I actually think there is even an advantage in us adopting slightly different attitudes to this, because it makes the outcome even more uncertain for the mafia, in that they cannot rely on Orig being autolynched if he stuffs up.

The basic thing we need is to make keeping Orig alive as risky as possible for mafia. If Orig's actions are uncertain and Orig's lynch is uncertain, the scum are put in a very tight spot.

vollkan, You are obviously the most outspoken opponent of dybeck. I too see a number of scum tells coming from him, but I can also interperet a lot of his play as a frustrated townie that adamantly thinks the lynching of orig is the only logical play for the town. I also find Oman's more erratic and somewhat opprotunistc play to be more what I'd expect from scum given that being as single-minded as dybeck has been can work very much against him, especially if orig were to come up town post-lynching. Do you have any reasons that I should implicitly think dybeck to be scum and not a stubborn townie adamant in his own conclusion? Because as of now I'm more comfortable with an Oman lynch.

I understand this point and I admit it is giving me a bit of frustration. I mean, I can see a townie adopting dybeck's stance, the problem is that it has been proven to be so wrong that I can't understand why he persists in pushing it. Then the fact that he places yourself and myself at #2 and #3.

I don't have any answer to this problem and it is one that is looming very large.

I guess the question is basically: Dybeck who is adamant and scummy, or Oman who is opportunistic and scummy?

When I frame it that way, Oman does look worse.

I am prepared to vote Oman as this approaches deadline but for now I do not want to lower my attack on dybeck because if you are wrong about Oman, we are going to need all the information we can get.

[AlyG]

Guys i'm still here got to have a re-read of the last 2 pages.

[Gemelli]

I guess the question is basically: Dybeck who is adamant and scummy, or Oman who is opportunistic and scummy?

When I frame it that way, Oman does look worse.

That's essentially where I've been coming from. Dybeck knows that his position is not popular but he continues to press it. He has had ample opportunity to adjust his stance as other possible targets have presented themselves. His alignment is certainly questionable, but I think shaft.ed nailed it: this could simply be a case of a townie having strong convictions and being frustrated that others don't share them. It's harder for me to reconcile Oman's behavior with a pro-town alignment.

While I agree that there is most likely at least one scum among our inactives, until they post more content it's impossible to form an opinion there. With any luck, they'll at least post their top-4-choice lists soon.

[shaft.ed]

Oman, You've stated a few times now that AlyG is not a confirmed tracker. I can only think of one wildly outlandsih scenario whereby AlyG is not a tracker. Since you seem to be more indifferent than the rest of the town towards losing AlyG, care to explain why you don't believe the tracker claim and how do you account for him knowing about orig's NK?

[Gemelli]

<metagame>Oman's profile shows 5 pages of posts since he posted here, so hopefully we haven't fallen off his radar ...</metagame>

[Oman]

Aye, you guys did fall off my radar, I was working too hard on my mini-essay and so I was playing in the games most requiring my attention. The town here is strong, and we have lots of players, plus activity is high so this took a back seat (all my C9s got priority ).

Sorry to do it to you, the idea was that you'd catch scum without me. I'm going to bed now, (0400) but tomorrow this is my first game I promise

[vollkan]

The town here is strong...

*blink* I really cannot see your basis for saying that unless you are mafia

[shaft.ed]

The town here is strong...

*blink* I really cannot see your basis for saying that unless you are mafia

Yeah that last post was just weird. It's like he's admitting he was trying to blend into the woodwork so as to not be noticed as much as he had been with his recent misspeaks. I'm going to put a case together against Oman until tommorow probably. I think he's the choice for today. I'm still quite hesitant to move forward on this without any input from Elias and very little from Lucienne though. So I will wait for him to post/request replacement before making my complete case against Oman.

And Elias, it's past the your deadline, I can see you posting in other-other games now. Seriously if this is too much for you to contribute please say so. You're inactivity is hurting the town.

[dybeck]

You say "If we give Orig this much freedom we'd be better off giving him a free hand". What would be the ideal scenario for you then?

I'm still almost certain that originality is scum. And he should be lynched. Blah blah blah blah blah... yeah i know... you don't care any more.

However, if we let him live, we should tell him EXACTLY what to do. That way, we limit the damage he can do if he is scum and, frankly, we limit the damage he could do if he were town. After last night's shenanigans, where he killed someone who was clearly pro-town, and still hasn't managed to come up with a single scummy thing his poor victim said, I think it's best that we don't even let a pro-town originality loose with his pro-town strangling-rope that he happened to bring onto this plane.

Failing

that

, the next best thing is to give him free reign. If we give him, say, three or four choices, a scum originality (which, whatever you think about me, you have to admit, is still a strong possibility) is still able to pick any one of them that happens to be town, yet still appear to be doing the town's bidding. If he has a completely free reign, we get a look at how he's thinking, and you can get a clearer idea of how scummy he is tomorrow.

So...
first choice... lynch a scum...
second choice... don't lose an additional pro-town player overnight...
third choice... get some info for tomorrow...

[Streeflo]

Elias has picked up his prod and stated that he will try and post in the next couple of days. He also says that if has not posted by the end of the week, to replace him.

He has until Thursday to make a post.

[shaft.ed]

You say "If we give Orig this much freedom we'd be better off giving him a free hand". What would be the ideal scenario for you then?

I'm still almost certain that originality is scum. And he should be lynched. Blah blah blah blah blah... yeah i know... you don't care any more.

However, if we let him live, we should tell him EXACTLY what to do. That way, we limit the damage he can do if he is scum and, frankly, we limit the damage he could do if he were town. After last night's shenanigans, where he killed someone who was clearly pro-town, and still hasn't managed to come up with a single scummy thing his poor victim said, I think it's best that we don't even let a pro-town originality loose with his pro-town strangling-rope that he happened to bring onto this plane.

Failing

that

, the next best thing is to give him free reign. If we give him, say, three or four choices, a scum originality (which, whatever you think about me, you have to admit, is still a strong possibility) is still able to pick any one of them that happens to be town, yet still appear to be doing the town's bidding. If he has a completely free reign, we get a look at how he's thinking, and you can get a clearer idea of how scummy he is tomorrow.

So...
first choice... lynch a scum...
second choice... don't lose an additional pro-town player overnight...
third choice... get some info for tomorrow...

I'm agreeing with dybeck here. I'm going to sleep on it, but I think I would like to specifically state that orig is not to lynch anybody tonight. But dybeck, I don't really see a difference between 3 or 4 choices and free reign (yeah I know I'm the one that proposed the idea). If he is scum, he would be incredibly stupid to off someone that the town majority feels is pro-town.

[dybeck]

I dunno... it worked for him last night

[Oman]

The town here is strong...

*blink* I really cannot see your basis for saying that unless you are mafia

No its, "we need to find scum, other games cannot do it without me, but teh town here is strong enoiugh without my input".

Rereading

[dybeck]

What's this supposed to mean? How are we in any way in a concensus?

We have at least three, probably four scum in a town of nine. At least two players are lurking. That means that there are potentially more scum than town posting at the moment.

If you're pro-town, why do you think we don't need your contribution?

[Oman]

And yes I am prepared to die tonight. But if our kindly doc decides to protect me I promise I won't hold it against him.

This phrase sets off alarm bells to me. In my experience asking for a doc protect is usually a "GIVE IT TO ME!!!" situation.

The lose originality thing went by me, as if dybeck things orig is town, that word choice implies he is town. Him saying "lose" implies orig is on the same team

I don't like the way Gemelli removes AlyG from orig's list in 757. We discussed the possibility the two were scum together, or whatever. I admit its not a huge probabbility, but the point is he completely discounts it.

I'm maintaining my Oman vote because it seems that he is very concious of who is on his list, what order they are placed on it,

and whether or not the town finds this acceptable.

I fixed it, basically I am conscious of where people are. These are possible kills you know!

Vollkan jumps on the global identifier thing way too hard. I'll say he's town, but jeez, its really unneccesary.

Gemelli skips over nokill in every convesation about orig's power.

Gemelli conmpletely changes sides to be on the same stance as Shaft.ed

Oman, You've stated a few times now that AlyG is not a confirmed tracker. I can only think of one wildly outlandsih scenario whereby AlyG is not a tracker. Since you seem to be more indifferent than the rest of the town towards losing AlyG, care to explain why you don't believe the tracker claim and how do you account for him knowing about orig's NK?

There is the fact they are two scum trying to help clear eachother. I admit this is outlandish and unlikely. I think its unfair to say that I don't believe, I prefer the euphamism: I have doubts about..

I'm dissapointed in the reception of my explaination, especially shaft.ed saying that I'm trying to "blend in" when its evident I haven't even been reading.

The previous posts make more suspicious of Gemelli and Lucienne (she's in this game right?)

[AlyG]

Ok like i've said i'm waiting for Elias to post and to see what he has to say. I also don't like Oman's comment about our town being strong. We townies possibly are outnumbered in the amount of active posters. So we need as much help as we can get, we can't have anyone slacking off. And answer me this: Why isn't your contribution as important as others?

[originality]

I dunno... it worked for him last night

I thought we'd been over this whole "carrotcake was useless and not a protown hero" business.

See, this is something that gets me about dybeck. He does, as some of you say, give off the possibility of a stubborn townie, but he ignores a lot of things that have been rebuffed or whatever just to suit his cause better.

[Oman]

Ok like i've said i'm waiting for Elias to post and to see what he has to say. I also don't like Oman's comment about our town being strong. We townies possibly are outnumbered in the amount of active posters. So we need as much help as we can get, we can't have anyone slacking off. And answer me this: Why isn't your contribution as important as others?

Do you really think Vollkan and Shaft.ed are THAT anti-town? The two strongest posters game wide, and recently Gemelli (not convinced he's town). The point is, these three posters seem pretty pro-town, and they're doing well. Therefor the town seemed strong enough for me to leave for a day or two.

[AlyG]

Ok like i've said i'm waiting for Elias to post and to see what he has to say. I also don't like Oman's comment about our town being strong. We townies possibly are outnumbered in the amount of active posters. So we need as much help as we can get, we can't have anyone slacking off. And answer me this: Why isn't your contribution as important as others?

Do you really think Vollkan and Shaft.ed are THAT anti-town? The two strongest posters game wide, and recently Gemelli (not convinced he's town). The point is, these three posters seem pretty pro-town, and they're doing well. Therefor the town seemed strong enough for me to leave for a day or two.

Even though Vollkan and Shaft.ed are seem to be good pro-town players, we can't have that kind of attitude towards the game. We need as much contribution as possible if we are to win, no slacking off because that makes it harder to win. We need everyones opinions voiced. And you didn't answer my question: Why isn't your contribution as important as others? Even though Vollkan and shaft.ed aregoing well why should your opinion notbe sopoken. This type of play doesn't sit well with me.

[Oman]

It wasn't that mine is unimportant, it was that mine was unavaliable. At the time I was putting lots of work into my mini essay so I didn't really have time for all 8 of my games.

[AlyG]

Oh, fair enough, still didn't sit that well but anyway its not something to vote for. Now all i've got to do is wait for elias.