433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[gorckat]

1) Because OTM thinks you are scum. I simply went for the common suspect between us.

2) <shrug> I guess because to me its obvious and I don't feel I need to shout and jump up and down at this point. Everyone's staying cool and psuedoing atm. If there were real votes out there, I'd be a bit more jumpy.

You OTM/pie idea makes sense, too, although it conflicts with my ideas about OTM's chatter.

[petroleumjelly]

1) Because OTM thinks you are scum. I simply went for the common suspect between us.

FoS: gorkcat

.

Let's see if anybody can see what

I

see wrong with this statement.

[gorckat]

Well I can't psuedo myself (his other psuedo).

[Off the Mark]

Don't have time for the reread yet. But I am curious about a few things:

3.)

OTM, yesterday you continually 'went' after pete d, but I don't think you actually voted for him; I think distancing from

known

scum is a good deal worse than your "distancing" you are trying to display between gorkcat and I;

Yes, I was stuck on Pete and Gorckat as a scum duo - still am pretty convinced of that, actually. I didn't cast a vote for Pete because I felt Gorckat had incriminated himself more. My only votes were for Dasquian (way back before the mass claim), and then for ssf/string and then Gorckat, once I pegged Pete and Gorck as a connected scum duo.

I switched votes because the gorkcat wagon

was not going anywhere

, and I thought SSF was equally scummy. Feel free to reread that section of Day Two if you don't believe me.

Totally untrue. Pie and I were voting Gorckat. If you had also voted Gorckat, that would have left the final lynch decision up to cpe. The Gorckat wagon was always alive, until you decided to vote SSF.

I'm actually wondering about an OTM / pie pairing; the game makes a good deal of sense that way (

and

it explains OTM's actions at the end of Day Two). After SSF is lynched, OTM wants to make sure the SK does not hit one of his partners; so what does he do? He implores the SK to kill gorkcat.

I can sorta see that, but that's not what is going on. I think Pie and I have simply been on the same page for a while regarding Gorckat's scumminess. I actually thought Pie was the most likely candidate to be the SK, until Dasquian's death.

In addition, that's one of the few pairings where I can understand killing Dasquain. If gorkcat ends up being the SK, they can lynch him Day Three. That leaves them to decide between me and Dasquain as to being the SK. I have not read Dasquain's posts exceedingly closely, but it may be that Dasquain pushed the agenda of a SK being present so much that it tipped off the mafia as to his alignment.

I have a hard time understanding the Dasquian targeting too, but I guess the mafia figured out he was SK, and they knew they had to kill him for the best shot at winning. If he was a townie, they would have been MUCH better to leave him alive, since he had aligned himself with Pete and Gorckat, but they must have been pretty sure he was SK somehow. I'm quite curious about that one and will want to know how they figured it out after we finish this thing.

Basically, there is no reason to have killed Dasquain

unless

the mafia thought he was a SK.

Exactly, if he wasn't the SK, they'd want to leave him alive.

[Off the Mark]

1) Because OTM thinks you are scum. I simply went for the common suspect between us.

FoS: gorkcat

.

Let's see if anybody can see what

I

see wrong with this statement.

It doesn't feel right to me, but I'm not sure how to explain it. He looks like he knows my alignment is town, for one thing.

[gorckat]

I think the twilight banter is the most "tell"ing (:P)

If either one of us were scum, we'd have shut our mouth and let the other one bitch up a storm. Instead, we kept arguing.

Its mostly intuition/gut.

[petroleumjelly]

Pretty sure I'm in the right here, OTM. After I realized my folly about kilmenator, I reread the game and decide to vote gorkcat in Post 766. I point out things you (OTM) agreed with but did not mention earlier. This was on August 15.

Immediately afterwards, the SSF wagon is spurred (i.e. people vote AWAY from gorkcat, despite the fact that I just attacked him). These votes are found:

1.) gorkcat in Post 770
2.) pete d in Post 779
3.) OTM in Post 772

So in actuality, when

I

pursued gorkcat, gorkcat and pete d (who turned out to be scum) immediately shift attention to SSF.

[[[And actually, SSF was

supposed

to be lynched right here, because Dasquain was already voting for Superstring (who

is

SSF). I didn't even notice this until now. Found in Post 788 (this vote count is also missing my vote for gorkcat).]]]

In Post 789 you switch to gorkcat, after the momentum was going for SSF.

I knew I was going to be busy, so I unvoted later in Post 821; it sucks being away only to find out somebody has been lynched while you're gone. During the interim, OTM and gorkcat quibble with each other, and I continually ask for SSF to read the game. I hold off from voting since kilmenator was constantly absent. After CPE replaces, I vote in Post 961, on September 17. I had already seen the town's initial reaction to the gorkcat vote (which was to vote SSF), and I was

more than willing

to vote for gorkcat; I thought

both

were likely to be scum at the time, whether they were part of the same scum-group or not. This was pretty explicit. CPE then waltzes in and hammers, which is not something I can exactly anticipate (especially seeing as SSF had been at lynch -1 for forever and a day and nothing ever happened with that for over a month). Had the town's reaction to my initial gorkcat vote been to pursue him

instead of switching to SSF

, then we would be in a better position today. In fact, pete d's reaction makes it seem pretty evident that gorkcat is probably his partner (a good time to deflect attention away with a vote, certainly).

I would say in general, the gorkcat wagon never seemed to be going places, but the SSF wagon was in light of the reaction to when I was pursuing him. The SSF-wagon only arose from his constant unhelpfulness and appearance of not having read the game - it certainly was not something planned on.

-> And gorkcat, my question is largely: why did you not pseudovote

both

Pie and me, but instead chose to pseudovote

solely

me? Seeing as you ranked me lower in scumminess yesterday and have given no reasons to rank me higher today, it looks like you want to say you're "suspicious" of Pie without actually having to vote him or present a tangible pseudovote against him.

[petroleumjelly]

The third vote on SSF should be:

3.) OTM in Post 782 (not 772)

[Off the Mark]

PJ - it takes 5 votes to lynch, so SSF was never lynched back then. He had 4 votes, (Dasq, Gorck, Pete, and Me) and you were voting for Gorckat at the time. Once I saw the votecount and analyzed the voting pattern, that's when I unvoted and switched to Gorckat.

[Off the Mark]

After CPE replaces, I vote in Post 961, on September 17. I had already seen the town's initial reaction to the gorkcat vote (which was to vote SSF), and I was more than willing to vote for gorkcat; I thought both were likely to be scum at the time, whether they were part of the same scum-group or not. This was pretty explicit.

So are you saying you thought SSF was very likely the SK? I thought there was a slight possibility of that, but I thought he was most likely townie. I never saw that you were "more than willing" to vote for gorckat. You seemed to consider it, but when it meant something, you voted SSF.

[petroleumjelly]

Read my Post 961 (where I voted) again. In it, you will see:

decided I'm going to choose between voting SSF and gorkcat; I seriously do not see a scenario where both of them are town (since this would mean town includes CPE, myself, gorkcat, and SSF; and therefore scum would be Dasquain, OTM, pete d, and Pie, which is grouping I cannot really see whatsoever). Therefore, I think at least one of them is scum. In addition, I have found each of them individually scummy while I did my initial reads of the game, so with any luck they're both scum and I'm agonizing myself over nothing.

...

Vote: somethingstrangeflea.

I'll change my vote back to gorkcat if necessary (there's really nothing making me think he is town), but I think I prefer the SSF lynch out of the two of them.

*

*Emphasis added

I preferred the SSF lynch due to SSF's most recent play - which was to be completely useless and to vote for somebody I thought was town (he had voted for Dasquain recently), and I go into more detail there (such as him calling everything mentioned against him a 'false dilemma', or a misrepresentation, etc when those were

not

the case).

I did not "think he was a SK", however; I just figured he was scum, and SSF seemed reasonably connected to a few people (Pie, gorkcat, and you).

[petroleumjelly]

Gah. Well, unless you're invisible, you seem to have left. I actually would have liked to have a one-on-one session here, but I just got a phone call about Mock Trial and I'll be busy the rest of the night (and tomorrow won't be a good day either, I have two exams).

I am going to use a WIFOM argument (no shyness about it from me), but only because it seems so totally obvious to

me

that I am not scum (and although I suppose I should expect to draw an accusation or two in LyLo, that doesn't mean I have to be pleased with it), and I don't see anybody else really bothering to consider things from

my

perspective and would

necessarily

have to be true if I were scum.

I just cannot

fathom

being mafia and even

allowing

for my partners to agree to a Dasquain kill: it seems like such a stupid thing to do from my position. Not only did I think Dasquain was town, but

Dasquain also thought I was town

, so it would - without a doubt - have been in my best interests to

leave him alive

and kill somebody I

could actually see being scum

. Depending on my hypothetical scum-partners, all of the choices seem incredibly obvious.

-> With Pie + pete d, I would kill gork or OTM
-> With gork + pete d, I would kill Pie or OTM (he would probably look like a SK from there)
-> With OTM + pete d, I would kill Pie (since OTM directed SK to killing gork, making that target unnecessary and an "easy lynch" if gorkcat is SK himself)

There is really no scum-pairing I can even see where I would

consider

killing Dasquain. In all cases,

if

I was of a mind to kill a townsperson, I would have killed CPE, the confirmed innocent.

[Thestatusquo]

Just a mod note, I will not be keeping count of your "pseudo-votes" so don't expect me to. Only real votes will be counted.

[Pie_is_good]

Actually, you know what? Logical Analysis time.

Players Left:
CPE (innocent)
PJ
Pie
Gork
OTM

Assuming exactly 2 scum left, and assuming [OTM, Gork] are not the remaining scum, there is exactly one scum between me and PJ. Proof left to the reader.

I know I'm not scum. Therefore,

Vote: PJ

.

I think it serves as a strike against PJ that, for all his analysis, he couldn't come up with that basic logic that would put himself in considerable danger.

[gorckat]

-> And gorkcat, my question is largely: why did you not pseudovote both Pie and me, but instead chose to pseudovote solely me?

I pseudo'd like a real vote- I can only have one.


@pie: Are you saying there's some kind of proof that you and pj aren't scum together?

[Off the Mark]

Heh, Pie's simple analysis actually makes sense to me. I think PJ and Gorck are indeed the last two scum.

PJ - OK, thanks for posting the reference, but I really can't take you at your word at this point. Sure, you

said

you'd be willing to switch your vote back to Gorckat, but you

didn't

so that doesn't mean a whole lot.

PJ - your other post (1036) was indeed a whole bunch of WIFOM. You say you would have had no reason to kill Dasq, but if you or your scumbuddies correctly identified him as SK, then he becomes a very good target, regardless of any other who-is-suspicious-of-who considerations.

So which one should we string up first? I have no preference at this point. I'll be shocked if Pie ends up being scum, as I have gotten good town vibes from him throughout the entire game.

[Off the Mark]

I think I'd still rather lynch Gorckat today. There is still a slight possibility of Pie and Gorck being the last two scum, but I can't imagine a scum pair that does not include Gorckat.

[petroleumjelly]

*tired from waking up early*

I had not completely excluded the possibility of {OTM + gorkcat}, Pie. One of the last mini games I played (that being Mini 424 playing as Javert), I had

too quickly

decided two players could not be scum together... and I turned out to be

wrong

. As such (and as I said in

this

game), I was not going to vote or come to a concrete conclusion or even pseudovote until after I had

reread the game

. Nice of you to notice that.

The lack of OTM/gorkcat hammering me just now (which they probably could have arranged, having posted so closely to each other just now), however,

does

suggest that I was correct that {OTM + gorkcat} is not the case. Which leaves one of the two pairings:

1.) Pie + OTM
2.) Pie + gorkcat

... both of which clearly include Pie. As such,

Vote: Pie_is_good

. Right now I'm leaning towards gorkcat being the partner, specifically because he pseudovoted he voted for

me

instead of Pie, without having given any explanation for that whatsoever (and despite giving the impression that the two of us have an equal chance of being scum). It is striking me as a distancing move while trying to give him an excuse to vote for me over voting for Pie.

His reasoning that "OTM and I share a common suspect" is a

complete cop-out

. Think about this way:

Suppose gorkcat is scum (and if that were the case, it seems very likely that OTM is town). His job today is to lynch

one

last townie. And to do that, he only needs

one

townsperson to vote with him. Hence, by pseudovoting the

"common suspect"

from a townsperson, he is guaranteeing himself that necessary townie vote.

Now suppose gorkcat is town. In that case, he is basing his entire conclusion on the presupposition that OTM is also town. And if that were the case, he should be perfectly willing to actually argue and present a case against Pie (and defend himself in the process).

PJ - OK, thanks for posting the reference, but I really can't take you at your word at this point. Sure, you said you'd be willing to switch your vote back to Gorckat, but you didn't so that doesn't mean a whole lot.

I've had these types of arguments more than I care to be in them. If I say I would switch to somebody, then I would. There is no good reason to

refuse

switching votes, and the very statement itself means that I

will

if I am asked to. Or else it would be rather stupid to make the statement in the first place.

[gorckat]

I want to see if pie can show how he and pj aren't scum together. I get the gorc/OTM aren't bit (our interactions would get an Emmy for distancing), but I don't see how it still couldn't be pie and pj together.

Yes, it is another 'elaborate' bussing possibility- if pie 'proves' its not him and pj, he goes to 2-1 only needing to vote the unconfirmed player remaining (assuming cpe is still around).

[gorckat]

Well, so much for that cross post. Back shortly as I digest.

[gorckat]

pj- as town, my job today is to lynch

one scum

. If I cleared OTM, it obviously is you and pie, and since he was willing to vote you, of course I go that way.

What's got me hesitant is the Mexican standoff we have now of people voting (or willing to vote) the other guy in their group (pie/pj and gorc/OTM)

cpe and OTM- don't vote. If only one of these two is scum (ie, they're

not

bussing/gambiting to a 2-1 endgame) then we need to play it slow.

[petroleumjelly]

pj- as town, my job today is to lynch

one scum.

gorkcat - as scum, your job today is to lynch

one town

. I'm town. So you're not helping yourself with that argument.

I need to study for my two exams, so no more replies from me until later in the day.

[petroleumjelly]

Damnit, one more post, something just occurred to me.

FoS: gorkcat

. Just realized exactly how convenient it is for you to have "not suspected" OTM. I can guarantee had the voting been between {gorckat v OTM}, then gorckat would be the person lynched. As such, he had to put himself in direct opposition of another player who is town; and given that Pie would be his partner, his only choice would be

me

(hence why he pseudovoted me over Pie).

Think that solves it. Pie + gorckat. Once again (the irony), I am more than willing to vote either, but Pie (given the voting) is statistically more likely to be scum from my position, so

that

is where my vote will stay unless it is necessary for me to switch.

[gorckat]

How come when Day 3 started, 3 people listed me as a top suspect (cpe, pie and OTM)? That doesn't make sense...I mean- I get it in the sense OTM was bulldogging me Day 2 and pie had his vote on me for ages...

But that would leave pj as my partner, which

doesn't

make sense given he seems to think its me and pie right now. If pj were my partner, it would make more sense for him to push pie/OTM, wouldn't it? (Caveat for my earlier bussing/gambit speculations).

If

I

had been lynched, that would have left pete looking pretty good since he'd been tied to me most of the day by OTM, and pie would have been able to point to a long history of suspecting me. OTM might have been in a bit of a bind, but if flea was around, he could've been right back on the hook.

Anyway...yes, if I'm scum with pie it makes sense that I go after pj, but not that pie comes out of the gate pseudo-ing me.

If OTM/pie are scum, it makes sense that they come after me. I get pj's vote towards pie- gorc/OTM is as unlikely as cpe/anyone being scum, and if someone could show me how pie/pj is equally unlikely, then I'd be voting OTM.

I'm not sure how coherent this is, but I think it

is

pie/OTM.

[Off the Mark]

LOL your last line didn't match the rest of your post

at all

. I know it ain't me, and I still feel better about Pie than I do about PJ. Pie voted you early day 2 and was willing to stick with it to the end.

I think we need to lynch Gorckat - if not for scummy behavior, then purely because of the way Pete consistently defended gorckat. (despite occasionally saying he was suspicious of him, his reactions to my gorckat votes count as a defense in my book) If scum protects you like that, you're probably scum too.

vote: gorckat

I think PJ knows Gorckat is a dead man and he is trying to set himself up for a win on Day 4 by distancing. If the scum pair is Gorckat and Pie, Pie could have been doing the same thing on Day 2, but I don't see any reason for him to think that he needed to, at that point. So I'm still trusting Pie.