Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!


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Post Post #2625 (ISO) » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:38 am

Post by Shteven »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Shteven wrote:EBWOP: To be technically correct, nothing above the line where TCS voted for me is about me. Afterwards, he states he wants to be the hammer, which is odd. He's mentioned this again recently. Apparently he would unvote and revote for me at the end to hammer? The only reason I could think of for this is some very odd role, but this game has open roles with all PM's quoted. He's just being strange, or maybe has a bet with a friend to see who can hammer the most players?

Care to explain, TCS?
I will explain when I hammer, scum.
Well then a nessacary precondition would be that you unvote. I recommend parking your vote somewhere it will do some good, try yourself! :)
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Post Post #2626 (ISO) » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:31 pm

Post by Glork »

Still kinda around, been obscenely busy, still happy with my MBL vote. *shrug*
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Post Post #2627 (ISO) » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:54 pm

Post by Shteven »

Funny you should mention that, because you're voting for me.
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Post Post #2628 (ISO) » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:29 pm

Post by White »

Yeah....TCS is acting weird....

unvote, Vote: TCS


Care to give an explanation?
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House Rules:

1. God came to my house and I killed him.

2. I will kill anyone who comes to my house like I killed God.

3. Give me one dead body and I might let rule #2 slide.

You have until Dawn.
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Post Post #2629 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:03 am

Post by The Central Scrutinizer »

Honestly, White, I'm not giving the scum any more info than I have to to win the game for the town.

kthxbai
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Post Post #2630 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:22 am

Post by White »

You're not giving the town any info to help us win either...
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1. God came to my house and I killed him.

2. I will kill anyone who comes to my house like I killed God.

3. Give me one dead body and I might let rule #2 slide.

You have until Dawn.
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Post Post #2631 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:07 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Honestly, White, I'm not giving the scum any more info than I have to to win the game for the town.

kthxbai
Um...so, explaining why you're suspicious of Shteven now, rather then "when you hammer", would be giving the scum too much info?
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2632 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:14 pm

Post by Shteven »

Because there's still two of him (Mafia) alive, and by lynching a townie (me, there, I claimed) it would take two days to kill mafia, two days we won't have any more.

Depending on various interactions with the SK, at least. I'm a fan of cross kills.
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Post Post #2633 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:28 pm

Post by White »

*sigh* How frustrating. I'm really not liking how TCS is playing and quite frankly i'm starting to believe Shteven. I don't like his play early this game at all but his later game play doesn't strike me as mafia. He night be SK but gosh i'm so clueless. However! I'm pretty sure we've got scum in Tcs so i'll go ahead and park my vote there.
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1. God came to my house and I killed him.

2. I will kill anyone who comes to my house like I killed God.

3. Give me one dead body and I might let rule #2 slide.

You have until Dawn.
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Post Post #2634 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:02 am

Post by LoudmouthLee »

Well.. finished or not with the reread.

Hard and Fast Deadline: Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 8am EST


Yeah. A week from now.

I went there.
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Post Post #2635 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:40 am

Post by Rogueben »

Well on that note I think that the TCS suspicions are very valid. I know that I said he felt pro-town but this statement that he has to hammer before he gives more information? I don't like being blackmailed like that and it seems scummy to me.
His main argument for the last while has been "don't lynch me I've come up as innocent". TCS, if you have any solid reasoning behind your play please explain otherwise I am now getting much more suspicious of you.
Unvote, Vote:TCS
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Post Post #2636 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:12 am

Post by BillyTwilight »

I am not liking the current reasoning for the wagon on TCS. It's a distraction orchestrated by Shteven and White. Guys, think for one second and ask why TCS as scum would specifically ask to let himself be the hammer. I understand that his request was a strange one, but TCS does off the wall things when he gets bored with a game. Recently he claimed as a cop in one of the Clue games because he was bored, with very little pressure on him (I don't think he even had a vote at that time). Point is it's not atypical of his play as scum
or
town, and I don't think it's a scumtell at this point.

In fact, I am much more suspicious of Shteven and the others for trying to make a big deal out of this. This feels a lot like Shteven trying to make a big deal out of Glork asking scum to kill MBL when night gets here as well.

One of these three need to be our lynch today. Equally happy with a White or Shteven lynch, and Rogueben's last post brought up reservations of yore about YB.
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Post Post #2637 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:27 am

Post by White »

TCS is at -2.

TCS, i'd suggest clearing up why you so desperately want to hammer.
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1. God came to my house and I killed him.

2. I will kill anyone who comes to my house like I killed God.

3. Give me one dead body and I might let rule #2 slide.

You have until Dawn.
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Post Post #2638 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Kinetic »

I'm very suspicious of TCS. I'll admit that. Yet I'm much more suspicious of Jack/White. I like my vote right now where it stands. What this feels to me right now is how I felt in Pooky's Open Countdown. It feels to me that the mafia are desperately trying to off the SK and are pushing for that lynch above all others.
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Post Post #2639 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:23 am

Post by White »

I thought the majority concensus was that MBL was the SK or most likely to be the SK or he was the highest candidate for that position?
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1. God came to my house and I killed him.

2. I will kill anyone who comes to my house like I killed God.

3. Give me one dead body and I might let rule #2 slide.

You have until Dawn.
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Post Post #2640 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:47 pm

Post by Shteven »

BillyTwilight wrote:I am not liking the current reasoning for the wagon on TCS. It's a distraction orchestrated by Shteven and White. Guys, think for one second and ask why TCS as scum would specifically ask to let himself be the hammer. I understand that his request was a strange one, but TCS does off the wall things when he gets bored with a game.
I already have asked why he would want to hammer, and since the role PM's are out in the open, I know there's no game reason. He's being strange for strangeness's sake, and yet I'm the one accused of being distracting.

It's entirely possible his intentionally strange behavior is being confused for intentionally scummy. I can't give you certainty. Have you stopped to think for one second and ask why TCS as town would specifically ask to let himself be the hammer? Aka, hello WIFOM.

I also consider it a gross misrepresentation of my post to claim that was "trying to make a big deal out of Glork asking scum to kill MBL" when I merely mentioned it once in passing right after it happened. It's merely something that I felt should be pointed out, I did so, and have never mentioned it again until you just brought it up now.
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Post Post #2641 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:55 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

BillyTwilight wrote:I am not liking the current reasoning for the wagon on TCS. It's a distraction orchestrated by Shteven and White. Guys, think for one second and ask why TCS as scum would specifically ask to let himself be the hammer. I understand that his request was a strange one, but TCS does off the wall things when he gets bored with a game. Recently he claimed as a cop in one of the Clue games because he was bored, with very little pressure on him (I don't think he even had a vote at that time). Point is it's not atypical of his play as scum
or
town, and I don't think it's a scumtell at this point.

In fact, I am much more suspicious of Shteven and the others for trying to make a big deal out of this. This feels a lot like Shteven trying to make a big deal out of Glork asking scum to kill MBL when night gets here as well.

One of these three need to be our lynch today. Equally happy with a White or Shteven lynch, and Rogueben's last post brought up reservations of yore about YB.
Hmmm...could you go into a bit more detail with your thougts about Stheven in general? Last time you mentioned him you thought he was pro-town.

Again, he's on my very, very short list of possible goons by process of elimination, but I would like to hear someone actually make a real case against him; it's starting to make me quite nervous that no one seems willing to do that.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2642 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:54 pm

Post by Rogueben »

I am voting TCS partly out of policy. By playing strange and blackmailing the town he is not being helpful. I also think that he is slightly scummy and could be playing a wifom argument with everyone that if he was scum he wouldn't tell everyone he wanted to hammer because that would be scummy.
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Post Post #2643 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:06 pm

Post by White »

If we're bringing up people leaning heavily on WIFOM don't forget MBL.
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1. God came to my house and I killed him.

2. I will kill anyone who comes to my house like I killed God.

3. Give me one dead body and I might let rule #2 slide.

You have until Dawn.
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Post Post #2644 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:35 pm

Post by Rogueben »

Haven't forgotten about MBL at all. I just want to find out more about TCS at the moment.
Currently busy 7 days a week. Will post regularly though.
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Post Post #2645 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:29 pm

Post by CrashTextDummie »

I've read another 20 pages and finally saw the end of this hellish day.

Pages 41-60


Shteven
- Still scummy. I didn't like at all how he attacked Glork based on the ludicrous assumption that Glork is 80% successful as a scum-hunter, and that he later back-pedalled from this statement doesn't really change that. I also didn't like how he tried to throw suspicion on Guardian and YB for not voting each other (something that is patently
not
scummy if the two persons involved don't suspect each other, which was evident in this case, and are vanillas), it felt like he was trying to coax them other. He later reinforced this faulty position in a post that feels phony to me. Especially this line:
Shteven wrote:P.S. I am not claiming that I know yogurt is townie :P
indicates the kind of self-awareness to me that scum has.

To top this all off, he ended up being on the Albert wagon, despite his stated belief that the probability of Albert being scum is less than 50%. His whole Post 1284 feels wrong, actually. Probably scum.

MBL
- His SK fetish got way out of hand.
Way
out of hand. During this period of the game, he speculated on people being the SK, gave advice to the SK (this is a big one for him) and congratulated the SK on a job well done. Why does it seem like you were more interested in the SK than in the mafia, who are much easier to find at this stage of the game, and therefore much better way to spend your time on, MBL? Apart from a list of people he didn't want to lynch which contained both known scum, I didn't see much that would make me think he's mafia, but SK is becoming an increased possibility the more I read.

The Central Scrutinizer
- Not much activity from him here, which leaves my opinion of him largely unchanged. I did like the logic behind his jump onto the Albert wagon (Post 1309), but that's pretty much all I have to say about him at this point.

Battle Mage
- He remained uncharacteristically inactive in this part of the game still, and I particularly didn't like his failure to commit to a wagon in the face of a deadline. Of further note is his first post of D2, which feels like an opportunistic jump on Guardian, which he accuses of being the SK while completely ignoring that MBL had done a lot of the things that he's suspicious of Guardian for, and more. A candidate.

Glork
- I've pretty much ruled him out as scum at this point. There were a number of things in this part of the game (particularly the very analytical case against Shteven) that feel distinctly Glork-town, and I also think he's treated the deadline situation in a reasonably pro-town manner. Not interesting.

BillyTwilight
- He became somewhat of a one-note record towards the end of the day, and was a bit too single-minded for my taste. However, his D2 opening MoS-analysis once again reinforced my feeling that he's town.

Jack
- continues to be patently useless, although it got a bit better. Interaction with known scum indicates to me that he's probably not on their team - he called MoS on his scummy "experiment", and got blatantly buddied up to by Sarcastro (something he likes doing, based on my experience with him). He's not a big issue at this point.

YogurtBandit
- My suspicions of him have lessened. He was a likely lynch candidate for virtually all of the pages I've read today, and I felt his reaction to this fact was reasonably pro-town. That he didn't try to take advantage of the rivaling Guardian-wagon is a point in his favor, and so is the fact that both known scum attacked him heavily. And while I wouldn't put it past MoS to bus that way, I really doubt it for Sarcastro. That at least 2 scum were on his wagon indicates to me that they didn't care which one of the two gets lynched, which strongly indicates that he's not one of them.

Yosarian2
- I still find him scummy. He once again did very little to further the town's cause, he only really showed activity when it came to further pushing the Albert-wagon. And he's still overly defensive of BM (in his first post of D1, he scrutinizes Guardians attack of BM, and later apparently votes him for that reason). It's been 60 pages now, and so far I don't see myself agreeing with anything he does, which is very unsettling.

Because I'm such a slacker when it comes to this game, and because we're now under deadline, I'll do the next 20 pages right away. Stay tuned.
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Post Post #2646 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:32 pm

Post by MrBuddyLee »

I'd put Yos around my 3rd or 4th most suspicious person right now, meaning he's either scum or the scummiest townie in the game at the moment. (Myself aside :) ) The reason he's so low is because he plays a traditionally clean game, very correct and trying not to make overt logical mistakes or get emotional. But that means you also have to look harder to see if he's scum or not, and one of the things I think has been lacking in Yos's game is a passion for scumhunting. He's very lackadaisical and almost seems to be treading water at times. This is a recollection based on previous reads, and admittedly I haven't reread the game since about September 20thish. But yeah, Yos, if you're town, you'd better step it up or you're going to give some poor townie a very difficult endgame decision.
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Post Post #2647 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:10 pm

Post by Shteven »

CTD, I'm glad that you linked to my post directly, because I think that the in-line quote is slightly misleading. I was trying to put forward a game theory argument, which relied on one (possibly both) of them being town, without actually claiming that I knew one (or both) were town.

I still think the game theory answer I gave stands. Of course you could lynch another town person, but since you know that you are town, you shouldn't lynch yourself over someone else. The only problem outcome would be if you lynch them, they turn up town, and then you are lynched because of it. Possible, but I think that would be unlikely; there's plenty of other people with you on the wagon, right?

I admitted then and I admit it now, this doesn't "feel" town. There's something to be said for being willing to sacrifice yourself for the good of the town, but I don't see how the day 1 situation would have been aided by such a sacrifice.

So really, my post didn't have much to do with Yogurt's alignment.
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Post Post #2648 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:41 pm

Post by CrashTextDummie »

I just realized I left an incomplete sentence in my analysis of Shteven.
EBWOP wrote:I also didn't like how he tried to throw suspicion on Guardian and YB for not voting each other (something that is patently not scummy if the two persons involved don't suspect each other, which was evident in this case, and are vanillas), it felt like he was trying to coax them
into voting each
other.
Shteven wrote:I still think the game theory answer I gave stands. Of course you could lynch another town person, but since you know that you are town, you shouldn't lynch yourself over someone else. The only problem outcome would be if you lynch them, they turn up town, and then you are lynched because of it. Possible, but I think that would be unlikely; there's plenty of other people with you on the wagon, right?
As a vanilla townie, you shouldn't vote another person
you aren't suspicious of
(or even think is town, as was the case here) out of self preservation. It doesn't just "not feel" town, it's anti-town. Period. Had they voted each other, they would have just narrowed the town's field of vision by fueling two wagons they didn't believe in.

There is no town benefit in the behavior you encouraged. There
would
have been scum benefit, considering one of the two was revealed as town and there's a good possibility the other is as well (as of where I am in my read-through). Hence why I find you scummy for this.

Starting my read of pages 61-80 now.
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Post Post #2649 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:55 pm

Post by CrashTextDummie »

20 more pages read. Lots of stuff happened, some of which puts quite a spin on things. Please don't fake claim ever again as town, Guardian.

Pages 61-80


Shteven
- he continues to be very scummy, but there is a caveat. First and foremost, I didn't appreciate his flip-floppy stance towards Guardian at all. I was particularly flabbergasted that "a 40% likelihood that Guardian's claim is the truth" was enough for him to unvote, even though it equates to a 60% likelihood that he's lying scum, which is a lot higher than what Shteven was willing to lynch ABR for (30% IIRC, I'm too tired to read back). I also think there's what could very well be a scum-slip in his posts at that time:
Shteven in 1519 wrote:MoS's "save" of guardian has already been mentioned. This one falls to whether or not you think MoS would be that straightforward; if not, it's sadly WIFOM. I put some stock into this.
Securing a mislynch for any day is worth the risk, in my mind.[/b] Perhaps not as much day 1, though, as lynches are likely to fail already; but all it takes is ~2 non-mafia lynches early on and the game is solidly in the mafia's camp. Night kills can still interfere, if you get lucky as we have.
I find it
quite
significant that Shteven is readily assuming YB to be innocent in order to spin MoS's behavior in a way that would indicate a link to Guardian. You sure you don't have any inside knowledge?

Some of his play just continues not to make any sense to me at all. When asked to list his top 3 suspects aside from Glork by AE, he listed Guardian, Inhim and Sarcastro, and yet followed that up by some weird half-defense of both Inhim and Sarc for some incomprehensible reason, which basically must have meant that he didn't really suspect anyone aside from Glork and Guardian, which is certainly unorthodox considering there were 60+ pages of posts. It's also pretty significant that Sarc made it into this list, which could indicate distancing.

And then of course, there was the Sarcastro vote. Was it busing? What I find noteworthy is that the vote itself is very unlike Shteven in this game. Up until this point, I felt like he was very focused on a limited number of players (which didn't include Sarc) and mostly shuffled his vote around between them. He also cast the vote for a rather weak reason (that Sarc was gonna miss the deadline). Furthermore, it's also noteworthy that Sarc was voting Shteven as well. All things considered, I don't find it unlikely that this was a distancing attempt. If there was scum on the wagon, Shteven is the most likely candidate.

MBL
- SK fetish continues, though not as badly as before. There's some more "friendly advice" to the scum, which really rings alarm bells when MBL does it. There's further evidence that MBL is not mafia, but I'm really starting to wonder what he's trying to accomplish with his play here. I hope he explains somewhere in the last 26 pages I have yet to read, and if not, I suggest he remedies that fact swiftly.

The Central Scrutinizer
- Spent most of his time arguing against Glork, which included an emotional outburst that didn't feel right to me. Posts like this sound to me like he really wanted to get him lynched, but lacked the arguments to do so. There was also this reaction to Guardian's claim, which was by far the most "forced pro-town". Finally, he was one of two people who openly stated a preference not to lynch Sarc, but he's the less serious offender of the two. Nevertheless, I'm taking him back into consideration.

BattleMage/Kinetic
- There's not much on BattleMage. I didn't like the manner with which he went after Guardian at all, but he redeemed himself considerably with his last action of relevance. I really wouldn't except BM scum to ease off of Guardian after hounding him so feverishly and definitively. Kinetic is too fresh to get a read on, so I'll once again forgo any conclusions, though I'm leaning towards town at this point.

Glork
- He did some things that didn't strike the right cord with me during this period, mainly the apparent SK directing he got most of the flak for, but I felt he was legit in his defense (and for the record, I think he
does
get emotional and over-defensive when attacked as town). His analyses and general suspicions still jive well with me. Probably town.

BillyTwilight
- Pretty much dropped off the face of the earth during this period. I feel like his opinion of most of what happened here is missing, which really makes him hard to place. He still wants YB lynched, though apparently not as much as he used to, and the only thing else to take away from this period is a vote on Shteven, which is admittedly not too bad. It's too bad he wasn't around for the lynch, but it's not necessarily a point against him. He's in the middle-ish.

Jack
- There's two people who actively opposed the Sarc lynch, and Jack is one of them. From the moment Sarc became a legitimate lynch contender, Jack switched his vote to YB, Inhim and YB again in short succession, always stating that he doesn't want Sarc to be lynched. While Jack always had his own head and opinions, he never seemed to be terribly interested in seeing them through, and now he suddenly puts up a real fight to get his way. And he
really
didn't want Sarc lynched. Curious. A candidate.

YogurtBandit
- There was an astounding drop in activity once people lost interest in him. Looking at his posts in isolation really puts this into perspective, as you have to scroll aaaaaaall the way down to find his post page 60 contributions. The only thing of note he did was a vote on Sarc, which is a point in his favor. Everything else is basically cheerleading in the Glork/Shteven debate. Not sure he's town anymore.

Yosarian2
- Now that Albert is gone, at least he's shown willingness to discuss a somewhat broader spectrum of topics. I still think he's way off radar though. I'm quite peeved that he wasn't around for the lynch, but he didn't express any interest in Sarc when his wagon started to take off, which I'll have to take as a point against him considering his absence at the end of the day. Still a candidate, but slightly less so.

I was meaning to take a closer look at the Guardian wagon at the beginning of D2, but forgot. I'll do it once I finished my analysis (which will happen within 24 hours).

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