Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Beastly]

Oh sorry this is my first game so I'm a little unsure of how people post and such. I didn't like her jab at MoS if you must know, plus she's pretty inactive and unhelpful. It seems she's one of a few happy to sit on the side making jabs during the mason stuff.

[The Venerable Zorg]

You may very well have made 40 posts in that time, but 39 have been appeals to emotions and OMGUS votes. Maybe I should just consistently post spam and spout OMGUS crap to get my post count up higher.

im sure if you weren't stupid and actually went back and looked you'd see that far more than 1 of my posts has been useful to the game, unlike you. but keep up the good work.

it might be interesting for someone to go back and count how many times Zoneace has used insults regarding intelligence towards other people in this game. I concur with Jdodge's last post really.
I know i'm not that experienced with these sorts of games, but i reckon you are more likely to get respect of others if you don't insult them randomly...

I'd still like to hear comments on my last post about Mastermind.

[ZONEACE]

it might be interesting for someone to go back and count how many times Zoneace has used insults regarding intelligence towards other people in this game.

I nominate you

[Ether]

So, would you feel it pertinent to claim, and then off of a hunch, declare one of your mason buddies scum?

When I played with Niv, I got more of a feel that he was an eratic newbie personally.

...and you've been trying to paint Niv as scum. What are you arguing?

I didn't say you were attacking me irrationally. I'm making sure you're questions are well meaning. Those 'hostile and misrepresentative' questions

are

probing you about your alignment.

I really don't think your answers to me convey what you've actually been saying.

I'm not sure if you're scum or not. To be honest, I don't really care. Either you are scum and therefore are a good lynch or you're just such such a bad townie at this point that lynching you in day 1 might actually be beneficial to the town in the long run because you won't confuse matters for the rest of the game.

Look at the individual votes on ZONEACE. Look at them. That isn't all confusion and I find it baffling that you'd say otherwise.

(Speaking of which, why is TS voting MoS for opportunism? o.

O

)

Aimee, post your thoughts and votes. PBPs are too disjointed for the

rest

of us to get a sense of you from.

[Zeppo]

No I don't think the actual votes on zoneace are confusion. But about 90% of the discussion going on at the moment is about zoneace and most of that just people flinging insults at one another. It's taking away from more fruitful discussion

if

he is innocent and just not defending himself very well. That said my vote on him still stands because I find said lack of defense scummy.

I take JDodge's point though (post 338). I have to admit I have my suspicions of Yamahako for his vote on Zoneace which seemed rather flimsy at the time. However he's far from #1 on my list right now.

[Ether]

Who's in between?

Have you actually read each post where a vote was placed and thought long and hard about what each voter's motivation could be? 'Cause I don't think you understand my implications at all.

[Zeppo]

I'll have a more thorough reread tomorrow I'm going to bed now.

[Lemming1607]

1) Just because he acts this way in another game doesn't give him the right to act like this in this game.

2) He is exhibiting an amazing amount of scumtells. Are we going to just let players continue to exhibit them all game just because they were town and did it in another game?

3) He refuses to address the accusations against him. We're going to lynch him eventually. I think he's scum, but I'm trying to persuade the "he's probably town"

4) Jester's are an exception to the rule and one shouldn't go about thinking about Jester's all day when lynching someone giving off massive Scum tells. He's a horrible player and needs to learn

[ZONEACE]

1) Just because he acts this way in another game doesn't give him the right to act like this in this game.

2) He is exhibiting an amazing amount of scumtells. Are we going to just let players continue to exhibit them all game just because they were town and did it in another game?

3) He refuses to address the accusations against him. We're going to lynch him eventually. I think he's scum, but I'm trying to persuade the "he's probably town"

4) Jester's are an exception to the rule and one shouldn't go about thinking about Jester's all day when lynching someone giving off massive Scum tells. He's a horrible player and needs to learn

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

if you were any more obvious , well, actually, you couldn't be any more obvious.

[Flare]

A quick bit of reading reveals that ZONEACE was lynched day 1 in Mafia 29 for much the same thing he's doing here. He was that game's equivalent of a townie.

Since most of us (myself included) have never played with him, I thought it was worth checking into his previous play a little. It seems that this is not so out of character for him.

Find me a game where scum play says it's a protown tell and not a Zone tell.

thats cause he actually knows what he's talking about. unlike so many people in this game.

Yeah, you're complete lack of defense is not doing it for me.

Zoneace I'm dissapointed you're essentially a talking Bogre.

I've been playing this game long enough to know when a wave has begun. It was clear where the day was headed. I was going to fall victim to a baseless lynch pushed by atleast one (and likely more) member of the mafia. the original votes i got, if you'll go back and look, were without merit, by people trying to throw suspicion off of themselves.

Yeah, quit using an appeal to authority, and show us how the case on you is baseless.

Zone, your appeals to emotion, authority, and arguments from repetition aren't encouraging. I can kind of feel where you were coming from originally, but your reactions to the case, you're useless claim, and you're repeated refusal to impart the information which SirT essentially forced out of you just still makes me feel that if you're not scum, then you should at least try to view your own posts and see how bad they look.

Despite all of this though.... I'm feeling that Zoneace is town. I at first thought he was just being OMGUS, but looking back he did not vote me (or he didn't leave it there for long) or SirT (Though in his position I might have voted SirT for ignoring my reasoning). It's like Zoneace are using these logical fallacies, but he's not doing it intentionally. I kind of feel like he's using them... well, honestly.

What I mean is, look at Zoneace's posts. It usually takes me a bit to actually grasp this. Do you believe that Zoneace is using these things

intentionally

?

so....

Unvote

I think.

This post came just after a post by Erg0, in which Erg0 had suggested that Zoneace always plays this way. Mastermind appears to have felt an urge to repeat exactly what Erg0 had just said. Yet i dont recall Mastermind saying this before. This could be an example of buddying up, by following the lead of Erg0. I havent played with Mastermind before (though he is in a game i am starting now), so can someone please tell me whether he is always this erratic?
I mean, his staunch defense of Zoneace just seems really jumpy. It would be very nice if Mastermind could please reveal his connections with Zoneace. If you are so confident that he always plays like this, it would be useful to see games which you and he share. I'm going to reread your posts so far and see if you have been consistent with this approach towards Zoneace.

in the meantime, Unvote, Vote: Mastermind

I agree with this. MoS has done this three seperate times I believe. He auto agreed with Niv. Then around two pages later he hopped on me with three other people just agreeing with them, and then very shortly afterwards, he moved to SirT. (this is based off of memory and not looking back btw)

vote:MoS

..and you've been trying to paint Niv as scum. What are you arguing?

That it's possible for Niv to be either town or scum, and he isn't confirmed.

I really don't think your answers to me convey what you've actually been saying.

Clarification pluz.

Aimee, post your thoughts and votes.

PBPs are too disjointed for the rest of us to get a sense of you from.

Disagreement. = )

[Niv]

been busy, post tonight w/ info

[Patrick]

Votecount

Simenon (1) -- Carrotcake
hmrox (1) -- The Fonz
Lemming1607 (1) -- hmrox
ZONEACE (3) -- Lemming1607, Niv, Zeppo
Flare (3) -- Ether, JDodge, Erg0
Mastermind of Sin (3) -- Toaster Strudel, The Venerable Zorg, Flare
Yamahako (1) -- Simenon
Sir Tornado (1) -- Mastermind of Sin
Zeppo (1) -- ZONEACE
Toaster Strudel (1) -- Beastly

Not Voting: Aimee, Flameaxe, Celtic18, Yamahako, KaleiÐoscøpe, Sir Tornado
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Toaster Strudel]

Oh sorry this is my first game so I'm a little unsure of how people post and such. I didn't like her jab at MoS if you must know, plus she's pretty inactive and unhelpful.

Actually it's a bit of meta-gaming. MoS is very good at surviving games - which means that he is skilled in not pissing off the scum and getting nightkilled, and not shaking the town too much to get himself lynched. Yet, he manages to participate somewhat aggressively.

His posts so far have struck me as wishy-washy, and out of character. He's not himself it seems - but only in this game. It's also not his habit to fail to respond to being voted against, even when he's far from being in danger of a lynch. I don't expect most other players to see what I see, but I've played a great many games with MoS, and I think many players here have played none to a few. Gut-metagaming if you will.

It's probably not a bad idea to shake him up a bit and see if he's persistently out of character, or if he's having an off gamestart.

[Flare]

His posts so far have struck me as wishy-washy, and out of character. He's not himself it seems - but only in this game. It's also not his habit to fail to respond to being voted against, even when he's far from being in danger of a lynch. I don't expect most other players to see what I see, but I've played a great many games with MoS, and I think many players here have played none to a few. Gut-metagaming if you will.

You forget his lack of profanity.

[Lemming1607]

zoneace, just because you say its true doesn't make it so.

Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy

[Carrotcake]

Im sorry for being unhelpful, but I have finals to study for. In two weeks I get plenty of free time. I believed that I could continue to post here given the little time I had, but right now I am a bit confused. And I dont have the time for a reread. I think its a bit unfair to the town that one of them is just lurking about, probably attractiing a vote, and generally being useless. So with that - I ask for a replacement.

Oh, and I did not blindly believe Niv - I just wanted to start a ~reasonable~ bandwagon.

[Patrick]

I'm looking for a replacement for Carrotcake.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh sorry this is my first game so I'm a little unsure of how people post and such. I didn't like her jab at MoS if you must know, plus she's pretty inactive and unhelpful.

Actually it's a bit of meta-gaming. MoS is very good at surviving games - which means that he is skilled in not pissing off the scum and getting nightkilled, and not shaking the town too much to get himself lynched. Yet, he manages to participate somewhat aggressively.

His posts so far have struck me as wishy-washy, and out of character. He's not himself it seems - but only in this game. It's also not his habit to fail to respond to being voted against, even when he's far from being in danger of a lynch. I don't expect most other players to see what I see, but I've played a great many games with MoS, and I think many players here have played none to a few. Gut-metagaming if you will.

It's probably not a bad idea to shake him up a bit and see if he's persistently out of character, or if he's having an off gamestart.

Neither. I'm having my life torn apart right now. Forgive me if I don't go all rambo on everyone.

Doesn't change the fact that my post was an attack on Sir Tornado, not just a copy of what Erg0 said. Although, I *DID* say that I agreed with Erg0, so I fail to see how agreeing with someone is a bad thing.

How did I just copy what Erg0 said? I said I agreed with him and then attacked Sir Tornado. Just because half a sentence said the same thing Erg0 said does not mean I copied him.

I'd like a second opinion on this. I think Masterminds post was terrible. I'll try and summarise why, below.

Erg0 is full of win. Sir Tornado is full of fail. Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

This post came just after a post by Erg0, in which Erg0 had suggested that Zoneace always plays this way. Mastermind appears to have felt an urge to repeat exactly what Erg0 had just said. Yet i dont recall Mastermind saying this before. This could be an example of buddying up, by following the lead of Erg0. I havent played with Mastermind before (though he is in a game i am starting now), so can someone please tell me whether he is always this erratic?
I mean, his staunch defense of Zoneace just seems really jumpy. It would be very nice if Mastermind could please reveal his connections with Zoneace. If you are so confident that he always plays like this, it would be useful to see games which you and he share. I'm going to reread your posts so far and see if you have been consistent with this approach towards Zoneace.

in the meantime,

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind

This is a horrible attack. If you just read my posts in isolation, you would notice that I said ZONEACE should not be lynched

THREE TIMES

before agreeing with Erg0's points. I didn't do something inconsistent.

[Zeppo]

I read through a couple of Zoneace's other games. He seems almost as obtuse in those as he is in this. I suppose I'll swallow my pride and admit that the main reason I voted for zoneace isn't that he seems

that

scummy but because he is annoying the tits off me.

That's not a very good reason to vote for someone, even if it is a very tempting one.

So

unvote

for now. Although I will be thinking carefully about reconsidering if he makes any more moves I consider scummy.

[Niv]

Niv - please explain why Simenon's actions are more likely to be done by scum than by town.

even i am now starting to think that it's a misunderstanding. i think now that hte best place to look is Zone.

Why Zoneace?

First point. i first thought how he worded the pm, that he didn't know something in the town pm. then, after the discussion, i figured that it was morelikley a misunderstanding. and i made a mistake coming out.

also, can ytou point a single pro town post by zone?

Someone suggested earlier (I think) that Zoneace might be a Jester. I think it's time to start seriously considering this. I can't believe that anyone would play as badly as he does. Especially since he is quite an experienced player.

iv'e been kinda thinkin that fer a while. however, i don't remember if i said that. either way, i don't think a jester should be in a fourm game, and if there is one, well, i disagree with its addition.

Erg0 is full of win. Sir Tornado is full of fail.

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

however if zoneace always plays like this, wouldn't it be more like a no tell?

Please switch your votes to Yamahako and not someone so distracting, thanks.

i just quoted this beacuse its easer than that whole pointless arguement w/ zone.

@ Zone: could you please post some real content of some sort. like who you think is scum or something. i will possibally unote you, however at the moment i cant find a single protown post by you. i am not unreasonable, if you give me reason to unvote you, i will do so gladly

before his one post yesterday suggesting i might be a jester he hadn't posted in almost a week and he's only posted 5 times in the game. He's been super lurky and suddenly shows up to jump on a lame wagon. sounds like someone worth voting to me.

Well, nice conentent. i actually agree with you.

You may very well have made 40 posts in that time, but 39 have been appeals to emotions and OMGUS votes. Maybe I should just consistently post spam and spout OMGUS crap to get my post count up higher.

im sure if you weren't stupid and actually went back and looked you'd see that far more than 1 of my posts has been useful to the game, unlike you. but keep up the good work.

i'd actually guess about 10 posts oh his to have some form of content, howvever a zone confirm on his own contentent 'd be nice, possabally w/ added content

lastly. i will

UnVote Zone

and then

Vote Flare

until the following is answered:

When I played with Niv, I got more of a feel that he was an eratic newbie personally.

When have you played with me?

i don't think i have ever played w/ you in the past. could you please tell me when you have played w/ me.

[ZONEACE]

however if zoneace always plays like this, wouldn't it be more like a no tell?

zoneace doesn't ALWAYS play like this, he plays like this when he becomes the target of baseless attacks by those attempting to avert suspicion from themselves.

@ Zone: could you please post some real content of some sort. like who you think is scum or something.

umm you quoted one of my posts where i added protown content and explained who i thought was scum, AFTER you said this, so why would you say this? I explained why i voted for Zeppo.

[Mastermind of Sin]

t;]Erg0 is full of win. Sir Tornado is full of fail.

Unvote, Vote: Sir Tornado

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

however if zoneace always plays like this, wouldn't it be more like a no tell?

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I said he wasn't acting like he does as scum. That statement is not logically equivalent to "always plays like this", therefore it is not the no tell you are proposing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

His posts so far have struck me as wishy-washy, and out of character. He's not himself it seems - but only in this game. It's also not his habit to fail to respond to being voted against, even when he's far from being in danger of a lynch. I don't expect most other players to see what I see, but I've played a great many games with MoS, and I think many players here have played none to a few. Gut-metagaming if you will.

You forget his lack of profanity.

Excuse me for being too tired to bother resorting to Ad Hom.

[ZONEACE]

UNVOTE VOTE Flameaxe

part OMGUS part Lets get day 1 rolling with a nice bandwagon.

There's a post with pro-town content. games that start in day need a bandwagon day one to get info, so i was trying to get one started so we could get the game going.

I must say I'm not pleased with Niv's descision to out the mason group. Unconfirmed mason does not equal mafia mason, it can, but its not a definite and if everyone in the mason group ends up being town then outing anymore of them jsut gives the mafia more easy targets.

I don't know why but at this point I'm leaning toward beleiving Simeon over Niv, but

FOS BOTH OF THEM

Ckillor's thoughts make sense (regarding Niv and Lemming possibly being mafia) despite it being unliekly and not the best plan for the mafia if it's true. so

FOS Lemming

as well.

I'm gonna

unvote flameaxe

as my vote there was really just trying to get the day 1 bandwagon train rolling but sense we actually have some real info now and real suspicions we don't need a random bandwagon.

thats all for now

Oh look, another one. the post that started all the BS in the first place.

I think that theres a strong posibility that at least one of them is scum, with a slight posibility of both of them being scum. I don;t think the whole fime man mason thing is impossible, but i definately don't automaticaly believe its true.

ooh, look another, me explaining the post before when some clearly didn't understand logic

Then there are about 3 posts where i continue to try and explain my post as MORE PEOPLE don't understand logic

Yeah, pretty much the entire bit on what Niv "called me out" on. He didn't just pm me saying "ur scum lol".

In fact, to my knowledge, he didn't pm me at all, but that's what triggered this discussion.

Eh, rethinking it, here is probably where the miscommunication lies:

I send Niv a pm saying that one of us may be scum and we shouldn't talk that much.

He sends me a pm (presumably the one I picked up) saying that he didn't need to be telling that.
He follows up with a pm saying something about outboxes and saying "point stands".

No where did he mention I was scummy for what I said, just that he didn't need to be reminded that one was possibly untrustworthy.

Bolding mine.


Umm So which is it, niv sent you a pm, or he didn't? You have in 2 seperate posts called niv a liar (indirectly) and not a liar but confused without ever stating you were correcting yourself. So Which is it? Is Niv a Liar or is he just confused?

In this post I show where simeone CONTRADICTS HIMSELF since apparently no one else noticed it. He says one things then he says the opposite.

later on i've got a couple more posts still explaining the original post that caused all the commotion since it seems NO ONE understands looking at both sides of a situation and understanding both sides but still leaning toward one side over the other.

Then Zeppo votes for me, so I vote for him (with reason, not just OMGUS)
and look, here i explain it.

before his one post yesterday suggesting i might be a jester he hadn't posted in almost a week and he's only posted 5 times in the game. He's been super lurky and suddenly shows up to jump on a lame wagon. sounds like someone worth voting to me.

His actions seemed scummy, so i voted him, logically.

Shortly after that I ask for a vote count

then...

can we get

prods

on

Celtic

(hasn't posted since the 24th and only has 3 posts),

carrotcake

(same as celtic, no post for a week and only 3 total), and

hmrox

(no posts in 10 days)

and can we get some participation please? Page 14 and yet the following people have posted less than 10 times the entire game (not including replacement)

Aimee - 3 posts
Beastly - 8
Carrot - 3
Celtic - 3
Ether - 6
hmrox - 7
Venerable Zorg - 7
toaster strudel - 6
Yamahako - 5
Zeppo - 6


Thats 10 of 22 people with less than 10 posts and 4 of those have 5 or less.

Here i explain the DIRE participation situation in teh game. nearly 15 pages into the game and almost have the players have lackluster participation and 3 desperately in need of prods/replacement.


And now we've come to the conclusion. If you go back and actually read through my posts, you'll see that I've been trying to help the town. No way would bug the mod about participation if i was scum, bad participation helps the scum because it makes it easier for them to force a majority. Also, i've explained all my votes, and they've all had a reason. My vote for sim was more than just OMGUS, i stated that of him and niv i was believing him more, and yet he voted for me, why would you vote for someone that believes you? that only makes since for the scum to do to someone they know ISNT scum, so i voted him. I explained my vote of Zeppo. It wasn't OMGUS, he showed up, OUT OF NOWHERE after lurking for practically the whole game and throws a vote on a stalled wagon. I have been more helpful to the town that a fair number of people in this game, especially the lurkers, so before you get all high and mighty and start exclaiming i'm so unhelpful and anti town, take some time to actually gather info after the subject.

[The Fonz]

But bugging the mod about participation is something scum FREQUENTLY do to look town without actually benefitting the town that much, and is ridiculously wifom. Claiming that moaning about poor participation makes you town is actually the scummiest thing you've done yet.

Let's look at that first post, shall we:

I must say I'm not pleased with Niv's descision to out the mason group. Unconfirmed mason does not equal mafia mason, it can, but its not a definite and if everyone in the mason group ends up being town then outing anymore of them jsut gives the mafia more easy targets.

You also vote for Sim for 'voting for someone that believes you.' That's not scummy. Not for a second. Sim also gave good, logical reasons for his vote that you simply ignored.



I don't know why but at this point I'm leaning toward beleiving Simeon over Niv, but FOS BOTH OF THEM[/quote]

You state that unconfirmed mason does not equal scum mason. Then you FoS both of them and talk about believing one over the other, as if it is a necessity that one is telling the truth and the other scum, as if the first paragraph had never existed.