Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[somestrangeflea]

Vote: DeathSauce

For being last to confirm...

[somestrangeflea]

Hope no-one minds me using Green writing

I'm going to try to be annoyed by it...

I'm not doing well...

[somestrangeflea]

Unvote

Im getting bad vibes from WeyounsLastClone all of a sudden he seems jumpy.

DeathSauce wrote:
vote:WeyounsLastClone for having such a long name.


You can use WLC if you like.

vote somestrangeflea. I don't like fleas, let alone strange fleas.

in addition to previouas post:

also known as random vote.

^^
Jumpy.

Vote:WeyounsLastClone

#

I don't like this. This seems like trying to get a real reason to vote someone, where there really isn't one...

Unvote: DeathSauce
Vote: death_omen

[somestrangeflea]

It's way too early for a real vote and he didn't do anything scummy that I can see. Were you kidding Death when you posted that?

This sounds a lot like scum talking to one another. A whole lot like scum talking to one another. I hereby suspect muerrto and death_omen as scumbuddies based on this comment.

Whilst I agree that Muerrto does seem to be placing words in death's mouth, you can't make a judgement based on two people communicating with each other

on page 2

. It's pointless, senseless, and quite suspicious...

I'm not willing to unvote though, so...

FoS: Khelvaster

[somestrangeflea]

(as you know your role and if you're scum you know my role so you know there's no way we're both scum b/c if you're scum you know I'm not and if you're town you know you're not)

I personally didn't get the "if you're town you know you're not" line...

Please clarify this post!

[somestrangeflea]

Yes, it's all WIFOM.

You've made a relatively large argument to prove that "one specific person knows you aren't scumbuddies with that person", which means nothing if you're scum.

Not only does your actual argument do nothing to help us find scum, but you're blatantly trying to use WIFOM as proof of your non-argument!

Unvote:death_omen
Vote: Muerrto
FoS: death_omen

[somestrangeflea]

Muerrto that was a really goofy argument. Why would you ever even need to "prove" to someone that you know you aren't scum with them? To both of you it's totally obvious whether you are scumbuddies or not.

Shrug. Flea asked.

Asked you what? I wanted you to clarify something you'd already said, I never "asked" you anything new.

[somestrangeflea]

Yeah, but it's not as if I asked you for anything new. You were merely rehashing stuff you'd already said!

[somestrangeflea]

so far I don't see much to be suspicious of, some people trying to apply early pressure. Khel is catching my eye a bit because he seems to have pulled us out of the random stage far too quickly, but nothing I'd vote him for yet, but definitly IGMEOY. Death sauce and SSF have also been jumping on things early (sauce on WLC & SSF on sauce). WLC, Hjallti, and Malc have all been fairly quiet.

Why wouldn't I be "jumping"? Khelv dragged me out of the random voting stage, and I wasn't happy with what I saw!

[somestrangeflea]

He needs to start defending himself and telling why he thinks defending oneself is a scumtell.

Well he won't, because it's a scumtell! Dur!

Unvote
Vote: death_omen

Because:

1. I agree with Khelvaster
2. death_omen appears to be the play ATM anyway...

Self defense FTW...

[somestrangeflea]

1) You say in your latest post that you 'agree with Khev'. Does this mean you find him less suspicious than you did earlier, or are you still worried by his earlier actions?

I agreed with Khelv on the point that "He needs to start defending himself and telling why he thinks defending oneself is a scumtell." That post didn't change my opinion of Khelvaster (I still have my suspicions of him), but death_omen really needs to speak up.

2) Are you voting for omen to get him to defend himself, or because you think he's a good choice for lynching today? (Or both, of course).

My vote is currently a pressure vote. death_omen's defense will determine whether or not I think he's a good choice for the lynch.

3) I'm puzzled by your claim in #90 that "Khelv dragged me out of the random voting stage". Did you mean omen here?

I was making my post in the context of the post I was replying to, rather than the game itself.

[somestrangeflea]

I know.

Vampryus posted

Khel is catching my eye a bit because he seems to have pulled us out of the random stage far too quickly

I replied in the context of that. I realise that death_omen was probably the person who

actually

pulled us out of the random stage.

[somestrangeflea]

Wait, what? You're saying that vampryus posted something you didn't think was true (namely the claim that Khel, not omen, pulled us out of the random stage), and rather than challenging it you simply echoed him? Why?

Because I could see why vampyrus would think that it was Khelvaster that took the game out of the random stage, and I felt that the difference in opinion wasn't great enough to warrant a full blown argument about it.

[somestrangeflea]

Flea didn't like WIFOM apparently. I think newer players(looking at his join date) are a bit spooked by terminology and WIFOM is the worst one. You will almost never see a game where someone doesn't bring up some WIFOM argument, even if they don't call it WIFOM by name. If I'd never said WIFOM and clarified what I was saying I think he wouldn't have voted me. What I didn't like is that I even said my argument was WIFOM and meant nothing but he voted because it was WIFOM and I was using it

Ah. Your post was WIFOM, and it therefore meant very little, which you then later admitted. My point was that, because you posted that you knew it was WIFOM, you therefore knew that the post wasn't helpful at finding scum, which is always suspicious in my eyes.

What part of what Khelvaster's post?

The part that I made absolutely clear in my post 108. Let's try reading the thread!

somestrangeflea says I won't defend myself cause he thinks I'm scum

No, the "Well he won't, because it's a scumtell! Dur!" was supposed to be a joke about the fact that you seem to feel defending yourself is a scumtell. I figured the Dur! made it clear, but apparently not... =(

Why am i the play of the day?

I don't know. Why

are

you the play of the day?
I said you were the play at the moment. Let's try reading the thread!

[somestrangeflea]

Wow...this looks utterly wrong. It saves time to lynch Death Omen now, and look for partners tomorrow. That way, if he is town, we can immediately jump on some other leads. More information means more accurate investigations. It would be a waste to do anything d1 when we can lynch Death Omen, look at the night kill, and use that information on d2.

If we lynch death_omen too quickly, we won't

have

any other leads to go on. You seem to be trying to rush the day, which is very rarely good for the town.

[somestrangeflea]

Longer day 1s let us come back during day 2 to examine connections between the lynched, NKed, and the living. If we lynch quickly day 1, we have less day 1 posts with which to make these connections.

Sure, the thread is more "concentrated" when there are fewer players, but we still won't have any information!

[somestrangeflea]

@Strangeflea- Where do you stand on the state of the game, Death Omen/Khelv/Lurkers?

Death_omen: I placed the vote on to drag a defence out of him, and I wasn't convinced with the one I've got. That, and the huge text fiasco make it hard for me to take my vote off.

Nty for the take two the town is blinded and Im done trying to convince you guys.. You are unpersuadable.

We're easily persuadable, but only by good arguments.
Khelv: The idea of rushing through the day bothers me quite a bit, but ATM, I'm set on d_o.

IGMEOY

Lurkers: Replace them, don't lynch them!

[somestrangeflea]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but another reason to move now before lurkers are replaced is that, if night happens while they still need replacing, we can be sure they aren't scum. If they need replacing, one of them is scum.

I want to play Mafia, not "Let's beat the mod".

[somestrangeflea]

I never said it wasn't, I was just giving my POV about strategies which involve trying to outwork the mod.

[somestrangeflea]

I just can't help get the feeling that the scum are laughing and kicking back watching this

I am here, just watching the back and forth at the moment

FoS: Vampyrus

!

On a serious note, Khelvaster, you can try and convince us all you want, but you will

never

get your speedlynch.

Unvote

FoS: Khelvaster

[somestrangeflea]

Welcome. What are your thoughts on current and not-so-current events?

[somestrangeflea]

somestrangeflea
(106) Don't know what to make from this but I find it strange (no pun intended):'death_omen appears to be the play ATM anyway...'

I'm new to the terminology, and I always assumed that "being the play" was equivalent to "having/going to get a number of votes, for pressure or otherwise". I now realise that that is in fact wrong.

[somestrangeflea]

Anyone else noticing that D_O looks like a strange smiley...?

[/offtopic]

[somestrangeflea]

If DO can give me a decent defense WITHOUT attacking someone I may remove my vote.

Remember DO, unless you're scum you don't know Khev's role.

Just because he's attacking you doesn't mean he's scum.

Sort of agreeing with Khelv here. If D_O comes up scum, Muerrto will come under heavy scrutiny tomorrow.

1) If we all went with you and voted for Death Omen and he turned out to be Townie, would you volunteer yourself for our vote?

Loaded question. Kthxbye.

FoS: Nelly

[somestrangeflea]

By the way, I meant Open 31, Yoguraimee mafia. This is, indeed

mafia 174

.

No, this is Mini 474. Try again, you'll get it eventually!

[somestrangeflea]

Flea Wrote

Loaded question. Kthxbye.

While it might appear to be a loaded question I did revise the question "But what I am saying is are you so sure that he is SCUM that you would put your DAY TWO life on it?"... If this is still loaded in peoples eyes then I will drop the issue...

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. You're asking Khelv to bet his Day 2 life on D_O's scumness, and I can't see why a Pro-Town player would ask for this. IMHO, it's the same question as earlier, it's still biased, and it's still rather scummy.

[somestrangeflea]

EDWOP:List of Descending Suspicion:

• Death_omen - for poor defences, and hypocricy/contradiction
• Khelvaster - for attempting to rush the town through the day
• Muerrto - for directing D_O, but this case is weak, as it relies on D_O's scum-ness
• Nelly - minor suspicion for asking for, IMO, irrelevent information

Now, I'm only really interested in, ATM, the top 2 players, and with this, I'm going to re

vote: death_omen

.

[somestrangeflea]

Vote stands on Khel because while I suspect DO more, Khel is hurting the town more. If he starts playing a tad differently that may change. But like I said I'll vote for either.

Generally, lynching players rather than roles doesn't work. Vote for who you think is scummiest, it generally works better.

[somestrangeflea]

I'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless,

I'm slightly sure BOTH are town

but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now. And missing a lynch is always bad so I'm voting for the 2

I'm most suspiscious of right at this moment.

Ehwut?

[somestrangeflea]

And Flea, if you're saying you're 100% convinced DO is scum and that's why you're voting him then you're in the same boat as Khel. If you're NOT 100% convinced DO is scum then you're in the same boat as me. How is me saying I'm thinking they're both town any different from doubting if they're scum or not?

It was the use of the word "sure" in the original post that threw me.

[somestrangeflea]

Unvote

D_O, if you don't have any results tomorrow, you're a dead man.

Vote: Khelvaster

I'm not liking his exchange with Muerrto...

[somestrangeflea]

Death Sauce received two votes, Plessiez & SomeStrangeFlea interesting enough out of the two of them Flea is the only one who changed his vote and jumped on the bandwagon for Khelvaster...

I random-voted DeathSauce at the start of the game, and then switched to death_omen. Therefore, what you have written is wrong.

[somestrangeflea]

I don't see how it was wrong, a RANDOM vote still counts as a vote and I simply stated that you cast a vote for Death Sauce and as far as being the only one of the two to cast a vote fo Khevlaster, well I believe that to be true also so ONCE AGAIN what am I wrong about besides not mentioning that your vote was random...

Hey Guys Flea cast a vote for Sauce but it was RANDOM!

Apologies. The way your post was written made me think that you were trying to say that my vote for DS was immediately followed by my switch to Khelvaster.

[somestrangeflea]

EDWOP:

Apologies. The way your post was written made me think that you were trying to say that my vote for DS was immediately followed by my switch to Khelvaster.

If it was random, then how can you use it to prove/disprove/mean anything? You're trying to imply some sort of connection between my vote for DeathSauce and my switch to Khelvaster.

Now, considering that you can't use my vote on DeathSauce to mean anything whatsoever, what you have as a case is "Flea voted Khelvaster", which isn't actually a case I'm afraid, namely because it's only got one thing in it. What you have is a single file.

[somestrangeflea]

And btw, i investigated Malchonn n1 and it came back with a fail.. Either i have sanity issues or some idiot rb'ed me.

A fail? I don't think sanity would affect whether or not an investigation succeeds or not.

If the investigation failed, it means that either A. you were RBd, B. you're scum, or C. Some other explanation which I haven't thought of.

[somestrangeflea]

The comment wasn't meant to prove or disprove anything it was simply a recap of the votes thus far.... You getting so defensive of it is what strikes me as odd... While yes I did cast a FOS on you it wasnt based on these facts it was based simply on a gut feeling which is why it is a FOS and not a VOTE...

Not true. It was a Hand of Suspicion, which specifically singled out myself and D_O as being very scummy from your perspective, which is now just a gut feeling?

You don't cast HoSes on gut feelings. You rarely cast FoSes on gut feelings.

[somestrangeflea]

Flea Wrote

Not true. It was a Hand of Suspicion, which specifically singled out myself and D_O as being very scummy from your perspective, which is now just a gut feeling?

You don't cast HoSes on gut feelings. You rarely cast FoSes on gut feelings.

First off how can you tell me what is true and not true when it is my own thoughts...

If I say it was based on a gut feeling then it is based on a gut feeling regardless of what you might think (1)

. Secondly I can cast HOS & FOS on whoever I want for whatever reason I want to because they mean nothing they are simply for the reason to see how a person reacts to them and

you my friend reacted like a person who is hiding something (2)

...

Now would you like to continue this debate furthur or would you like to be a productive townie like you claim and find some scum?(3)

1. I never said it wasn't a gut feeling. I said that a gut feeling was a lousy reason to the single people out with HoSes which try to make out that you suspect them more than anyone else.
2. And you are jumping in defense of your ridiculous claims.
3. Scumhunt please,

Vote: Nelly

[somestrangeflea]

Flea - Tossing out the HOS on him and making up a lame excuse like GUT feeling was my way of getting a read on him... Very Defensive... Thus far the people who have gotten defensive (Khelvaster & D.O) are townie (I will explain the D.O thing in a minute) so instead of sitting back and not drawing alot of attention to himself he stood up and defended himself which gave me a good read on him and I dont think he is scum ONCE AGAIN I DONT THINK!

This makes sense, but that doesn't change that the actual attack itself was still baseless, and those types of attacks for gaining information are only really suitable for day 1, IMHO.
However, I'm tempted to believe you, so I'm going to

Unvote

.

ISGMEOY

though...

Is it possible to have a Doctor that when he protects he roleblocks the person?

Yes, a Paranoid Doc. Normally the P. Doc both protects and roleblocks, but is told he is a normal Doc.

The reason for this was simple... We had D.O close to a lynch and alot of people were convinced that he was scum.. But then he comes out and with one post and a roleclaim he turns the tide because no one wanted to vote for a claimed cop role... So then we all turn to Khelvaster and get him close to a lynch and then someone says "Wait and let him roleclaim"...

Now what i was thinking was, he comes out and claims to be the Vigilante (He double checks his PM and sees the mistake) so now he makes this claim and everyone says "Oh well I dont want to lynch a claimed Vigilante role on day one" so then we go back to square one and lets say we all jumped on Vampy and then he got close to a lynch and then he claimed to be the Doc and we all stoep back and say "I dont want to lynch a claimed doc role on the first day"...

You see what I am saying, we had no real way of knowing if someone is telling the truth so I took it upon myself to hammer him...

I see. I don't think that that's particularly good reasoning. I honestly think that a never-ending chain of claiming wouldn't really have been feasible.

On that same note if I was scum why in the hell would I stick my ass out there and hammer someone! Knowing that this would put my name on the tip of everyones tongue on day two!

Here's one. If you figured that hammering quickly was "sticking your ass out there", why is it that you came into Day2 guns blazing points FoSes and HoSes everywhere, which could be considered equally "ass sticky outy"? If you feel you drew attention to yourself end of Day 1, why did you draw more attention to yourself start of day 2?

I will give you a Role Claim right now so incase someone wants to hammer me they can do so with no hesitation (if the time comes ofcourse)…

PLAIN VANILLA TOWNIE… Nothing special going on in my part of town…

This isn't a claim. It's pointless to claim townie since EVERYONE is claiming townie. Scum claim townie, townies claim townie, the only ones that don't are power roles and they wouldn't claim anything till they have to.

Well hang on, if Vanilla Townie isn't a roleclaim, what would you expect Vanilla Townies to do? Lie?

FoS: Muerrto

Well, wouldn't you defend yourself? I see how his reasons are very strange but being defensive and disagreeing with you doesn’t really warrant a vote does it?

I did defend myself, but like I said earlier, baseless votes to draw out suspicion are only really Day1 tactics, in that they look really scummy if you do them later.

[somestrangeflea]

The vigilante is a killer on the town side. Depending on the variation, they may be able to kill every night, or be limited to a certain number of times during the game.

It wasn't mentioned that Khelvaster was limited to a certain number of shots, so I think its safe to assume that he could kill every night, should he have chosen to do so.

[somestrangeflea]

D_O, if you don't have any results tomorrow, you're a dead man.

So, this question was already posed to you and you didn't answer it (I don't think). I have the same question - now that he got back a fail, do you still stand by what you said? What do you think of D_O as he stands today? He doesn't have any results, so ...?

I misjudged D_O's character. I assumed (from what I'd seen so far), that if he didn't have any results he'd come out today panicky, and I would have went for his lynch if he had. But he came out straight today and actually began speculating why his results came back the way they did. So no, I take back what I said completely, simply because the way he claimed his lack of result has dramatically changed my opinion of him.

[somestrangeflea]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

[somestrangeflea]

Unvoting him was fine but lynch -2 was fine too. Just didn't wanna see him hit lynch -1 or get hammered quickly. If he's town and we lose another town tonight we're in LYLO.

I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. Explain please!

Um..there's 12 people. 1 dies each day and 1 dies each night. So if we lose another town today and another town tonight we have 8 people and 3 scum. That makes the next day 6 people and 3 scum. That's lose.

So if we mislynch today we're in LYLO. If you were actually legitimately asking that's cool but you seem to keep trying to find things in stuff I say(like the WIFOM thing) that you can use to cast suspiscion on me even though what I said made perfect sense.

Two mislynches means day 3 is LYLO and day 4 is lost.

Oh, you were working under the assumption that there were 3 scum. Make sense now, sorry!

[somestrangeflea]

I'm agreeing with VH here. Your investigation failing probably has little to do with who you actually investigated, and trying to actually build a case against a specific person (in this case, Malchonn), based mainly on the evidence of "I was roleblocked", isn't the right way to be doing things.

[somestrangeflea]

YOU ALL BELIEVE THAT ROLECLAIMING IS GOOD AND I BELIEVE IT IS NOT...................

Give reasons people. "You have your opinion and I have mine, so shhh" is not a valid defense.

[somestrangeflea]

HERE IS YOU STUPID ROLECLAIM....
Vanilla Townie

No, here is your stupid roleclaim...

PLAIN VANILLA TOWNIE… Nothing special going on in my part of town…

[somestrangeflea]

I think this because if he was town, why would he act very bothered by people suspecting him? I mean as a townie you would say "I'm Vanilla townie, if you lynch me that equals LYLO" not "HERE IS YOUR STUPID ROLECLAIM Vanilla Townie!" Does anyone understand that?

I agree.

Nelly, you're going to need to learn to chill out. Start listening to classical music, take a few sedatives once in a while, become an alcoholic, I don't care, just do something that will prevent you POSTING LIKE THIS, because you're not going to get anywhere if you don't...

[somestrangeflea]

Agreed..

Vote:Nelly632

Your kind of play is bad on the whole, try defending yourself with proper statements and NEVER take the game of mafia seriously.. EVER

I am not taking this game too seriously I have given you all more then enough reasons to vote me and yet we sit here and I am not lynched... Come on guys lets get on ball how do you expect to win this game if you let SCUM like me walk around in your back yard...

I am sorry I am confused are you claiming scum or are you being sarcastic?

Does it matter? I've reached the end of my tether with Nelly to be honest.

Vote: Nelly

[somestrangeflea]

See, Nelly claimed VT, but then claimed scum, and so should be lynched on the basis of LaL!

[somestrangeflea]

But a townie (if he is town) is as bad as a scum if he is one that is completely unwilling to communicate with the rest of us.

I used to believe this, but then realised that this is an incorrect viewpoint.

Players should be lynched for being scummy, not for being unskilled at playing Mafia, because players who are terrible can equally be either Town or Scum, and so lynching them is effectively as good as a random lynch.

[somestrangeflea]

My view is simple... Lynch me already...

If I am scum then you guys are doing the right thing and will win...

If I am Town then I am a bad townie and you guys had no choice right...

If you hate the way I am playing the game then YOU stop playing Mafia because I can do whatever I want to do in this game...

I am in several other games and I participate alot more then in this one because unlike this game the other games have people who are smart enough to realize other alternatives then pointing the finger at the person who hammered in the previous round...

No, you simply refuse to believe that people are suspecting you for any reason other than your hammer vote. Any reasoning we use against you, you merely deflect with "I EXPLAINED MY HAMMER VOTE!"

Oh, and mass personal attacks are pointless and idiotic.

You all our sheep that see a hammer and go

"um i think he is scum because he hammered so lets ask him why then everytime he gives us a excuse lets tear it down because we like putting pressure"

I tried and tried to explain why the hammer happened and it fell on deaf ears so now I vote myself and give you all what you want and you are still not happy...

We don't want you to be lynched. We want you to use words, sentences, logic, and thought to explain to us why you shouldn't be lynched. We do not want to you take an immature hissy fit and blow up all over the thread because you're being suspected.

[somestrangeflea]

Because I don't think you're scum.

Well atleast that is ONE smart person in this game...

"EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS STUPID, BECAUSE I'M

OBVIOUSLY

TOWN!!!!111 EVERYONE IS STUPID AND WRONG..........................................................................................................................................................................................."

[somestrangeflea]

Um I'm kinda confused. Was SSF talking to me?

No.

Oh, and vampyrus needs to post! =D

[somestrangeflea]

My god lets all listen to Muerrto because he goes by JOIN dates... NOOB lol... Come on guys lets vote me off already so you all can be a Lunch or lose...

If you're going to insist on acting immaturely for the remainder of the game, I'd much prefer your replacement than your lynch, to be honest.

I'd much prefer though if you'd actually stay and play Mafia...

[somestrangeflea]

I feel like the majority of the people in the game were/are looking at Nelly as #1. So, if you now are more inclined to believe he's town..then who's #2?

Nelly will be my #1, up until the point when this:

I will give you all a detailed list of suspects and other stuff first thing tomorrow...

...becomes true. Which should've been yesterday...

[somestrangeflea]

One noticeable thing - Says over and over he doesn't want Nelly to be lynched, or that he should be replaced instead, yet won't move his vote?

Good point. What I meant was that I would advocate his lynch, but I would prefer his replacement. However, he's promised an analysis which I want to see before I even consider moving my vote.

Question: Do you think Nelly is more scum than town or more town than scum?

At the moment, more town than scum. In my time here I have seen a few players "blow up" (for lack of a better word), and, truth be told, they regularly turn out to be town. However, the nature of Nelly's "blow up" somehow seems more anti-town than others. A summary:

Self-voting

- Not unusual to "blow ups"

Re-claiming VT

- I've never seen a VT "blow up", but then again, it could just be that this time, the "up blower" is actually a VT. However, the fact that he

re

-claimed Vanilla strikes me as fairly unusual.

Claiming Scum

- Now, I've never seen any one claim scum, even in a "blow up", so this strikes me as very unusual, since he is leaving himself open to an LaL offensive.

I'm finding him scummy, not for blowing up in and of itself (I am fairly sure those last 4 words are misplaced, but you get the drift...), but by the strange nature of it.

[somestrangeflea]

Once again this is loosely based and has now real evidence also I was thinking for a second that Serp might be a COP who investigated VH during the night and knows he is scum but then I saw he was unvoting VH and if a cop had a guilty read he wouldnt unvote that person. Then I thought that maybe Serp is the COP and he investigated me on Night One because I hammered and he knows I am town and that is why he wont vote for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not generally considered anti-town to draw attention to people you think might be Cop? Or is that Doc? Or both?

[somestrangeflea]

Reading through page 23, I noticed this:

town than scum.

You could probably tell from the rest of that post, but the above quote is the wrong way around...

I'm currently not feeling an urge to unvote Nelly (the analysis was, IMHO, not up to par), however I can say that I'm feeling Nelly's arguements against Muerrto. We've dissected the speed-hammer as much as we can. Can you use it as reasoning for suspicion? Yes. But you keep bringing it up and hacking at Nelly with the same argument over and over again, and it seems as though you're desperately trying to get this to stick.

FoS: Muerrto

[somestrangeflea]

As for Nelly's RC, I'm not going to try to explain how town isn't an RC.

Correct. Town is not a role claim, it's an alignment claim. Vanilla Townie, on the other hand, is a role claim, albeit, not a particularly useful one.

I'll simply put it this way. If you're under suspiscion, and you claim vanilla town, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? If you're under suspiscion, and you claim cop, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? In both cases, nothing. But you're forced to back off the power role for fear they're telling the truth. If you EVER back off someone who claims town it's a bad play. Because if you won't lynch someone who claims town, who will you lynch?

I agree with this.

What I don't get though, is why you even brought up the roleclaim? My post was about the fact that you kept bringing up the Speed-Hammer. In all honesty, the role claim was, with regards to this conversation, irrelevent. It seems as though that entire post was giving an answer to a question which I didn't ask, which seems really weird...

[somestrangeflea]

What I don't get though, is why you even brought up the roleclaim? My post was about the fact that you kept bringing up the Speed-Hammer. In all honesty, the role claim was, with regards to this conversation, irrelevent. It seems as though that entire post was giving an answer to a question which I didn't ask, which seems really weird...

I was answering Nelly's post above yours just doing it all in 1 post.

Oh, that makes sense! But then, the only reference you actually made to my post was:

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

...which doesn't actually defend against the points I've mede.

[somestrangeflea]

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

...which doesn't actually defend against the points I've mede.

Of course it does.

My point is that there were most likely both scum and town on Khel's lynch.

Well duh! Unless there are 7 scum in the game...

It's pointless to look at the order or timing to try and decide who is scum that way. Looking at people's posts, interactions etc is how you find scum. Remember that scum know who's town but town doesn't. So how does looking at a list of people who lynched town help us nail scum?

Now looking at the hammer, the timing, the reason etc. does. It was either a bad move or a scum move. If someone wants to bring up a better suspect I'm all ears but for now Nelly's my top suspect. Am I 100%? Of course not. But there has to be an order to suspiscion and he's my top at the moment. Nelly obviously doesn't like that he's my top suspect and is therefore voting me.

OK. My initial point was that you were bringing up Nelly's hammer too often, and that it seemed like you were trying to hard to get it to stick.

Now, your post has listed the benefits of examining the hammer, which are valid points, but that's not actually a defence against "you're bringing up the hammer too much". Yes, examining the hammer will bring some evidence, but my point is that I feel that we got as much information as we can out of it at the start of the Day, and that your persistance to attack Nelly with it looks slightly suspicious.

[somestrangeflea]

Not really. In fact it's been a while since I've attacked him for it.

Oh? So, a day classes as "a while"..?

But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining.

This, to me, reads like bringing up the hammer in an attempt to make it stick, which is what the point of my original post was.

My vote hasn't moved and recently it's been more about trying to convince him how claiming town doesn't alleviate my suspicion, as it shouldn't.

Not related to my post. Stop posting things under quotes which aren't related to the quote plzkthx.

I mention the hammer only when he talks about how I'm not looking at the people who voted for Khel, as if the hammer wasn't a vote for Khel. That's suspicious.

Ah, you mean this:

You have refused to examine the list of people that voted for Khelvaster and continued to hold your vote on me with standing the numerous roleclaims I have stated in my post.

I can see where you're coming from, but to me, that reads more like "you haven't tryed to examine anyone

else

on the list of people who voted for Khelvaster".

But since we're getting 2 replacements that doesn't really matter at the moment. Let's wait, let them read up, and hear what they have to say.

Just because we're getting replacements doesn't mean that conversation has to stop until they arrive.

It may be some time before the replacements arrive anyway. I wouldn't expect to see them until after Day 3 has started, considering I haven't gotten any responses to my request for replacements yet. - Mod

[somestrangeflea]

That's what I meant by not bringing it up. In fact I'm not sure I've posted without it simply being a reply in several days.

This is true, and I missed that because I was reading your posts in isolation.

You've brought up the hammer when:
A. Someone else has directly posted about the hammer.
B. You posted it when asked about your suspicions.

Now, both of these are valid times to bring up the point, so I'll

un-FoS

for now, but

IKMEOY

because, IMO, there's something about your posts that makes it seem as though you're trying to make that stick. It's just analysis of tone though, and is therefore almost pure conjecture/gut.

One of those two are scum, I can assure you of that.. My thoughts were slipping onto Plessiez before he asked to be replaced.

You can assure us? How?

[somestrangeflea]

Also there aren't many suspicions anymore. That might be a bad thing, I'm not sure. I keep reading through and can't really find anyone suspicious.

Of course it's a bad thing! If we have no suspicions at deadline, there's a large chance we'll have no-lynch at deadline, giving the scum a free kill.

My opinion of Nelly is still improving, but it's still not quite enough for me to unvote, since we're under deadline and I have

nowhere else to go

!

Even at that though, Nelly has, IMO, been acting slightly scummy throughout the game, so, despite his posts regarding the hammer, there are other scumpins holding my vote up...

[somestrangeflea]

I’m curious about post 125 as well. He had earlier said that Omen was the play of the day, but when asked to explain this merely asked Omen why he thought he was the play of the day.

Post 125 was a sarcastically toned post aimed at d_o, to point out that I never actually said that he was the play

of the day

. I think, at the time, everyone else got that.

Similarly, I find it odd that in Post 323 he votes for Khel, saying he didn’t like his exchange with Muerrto. Since he had previously been suspicious of Muerrto, why vote for Khelvaster?

In 269/270, I suspect Muerrto more than Khelvaster.
Between 270 and 323, Khelvaster does things which were, IMO, quite scummy.
In 323, I suspect Khelvaster more than Muerrto, and thus vote for Khelvaster.

This is odd, how?

[somestrangeflea]

It seems we are left with 5town (or 4town, 1neutr), 1SK and 1scum. Is that something we can use as a fact, or is it highly possible to have something else?

It's not something we can use as a definite fact, but, IMO, it's quite likely that that is the current state of affairs.

I would just like to bring up the point that, considering death_omen has no results, and that this is a closed setup, d_o's claim as a Cop should not effect our decisions today. From an NPOV, there is just as much chance as d_o being scum as anyone else at this point in the game.

[somestrangeflea]

Here's a point that I noticed:

D_O is claiming that he was Roleblocked on N1. There are 2 killing parties, so why was there only 1 kill Night 1?

[somestrangeflea]

when did i say DO was the SK?

He's not necessarily mafia, since he could be the other killer (SK?)

Which, even if you are only speculating on the possibility of an SK, is still contradictory with:

I say we rule out the possibility of the SK.

FoS: Karen

[somestrangeflea]

death_omen claimed under pressure.

We are 2 days later and we still have no results.

Indeed, however (and I'm relatively sure I explained this earlier when... I think it was Seraphic who brought it up) I was convinced by how he claimed his lack of result on day 2. I had, in my own head, predicted that, if he was lying, he'd have been much more panicky than he was.

Of course, now that we're two days in, d_o's lack of anything does make me slightly uncomfortable...

[somestrangeflea]

EDWOP:

Yeah, Seraphic brought it up in Post 388, and I reponded in 389.

[somestrangeflea]

As for Hijati I think we need a role claim from you, there could not necessarily be a scum roleblocker but instead

whenever I investigate scum it just comes back as a fail.

But a Cop with that kind of sanity doesn't really fit under the category of a "Normal" role in a Closed setup. The possibility of there being either a scum Roleblocker, or you lying, outweighs the possibility of that role significantly.

Also, you seem to be pushing the "this is definately my sanity" far too hard, considering that sanities are meant to be completely unknown to players...

[somestrangeflea]

Shrug, IMO DO, myself, Hjalti, and Vampdog are cleared at the moment

Uh, why?

I personally feel that Muerrto is good in my book now because of Aimee wouldn't have attacked both of her scum buddies and since she clearly attacked one and he proved to be scum I have to logically assume that Muerrto is town.

No you don't...

Also since D.O has claimed cop I have to go with him until he is proven otherwise

No you don't...

HoS: Nelly

for assuming that too many people are innocent, and for blatant bandwaggoning. Generally acting as if you have information we don't.

FoS: Muerrto

for the first of the above.

FomS: D_O

for the second of the above, a bit...

[somestrangeflea]

So since Aimee called out Vampdog and Hjalti and DO claimed cop they're currently cleared. What part of that is difficult to grasp?

No, that means that the chance of them being scum is slightly lower. They aren't even close to being cleared.

Um, yes you do. He's a claimed and un-opposed power role claim in a non-LYLO situation. Yes, you do.

He's a claimed Cop with no results on Day 3. This is a closed setup, meaning that there may not even be a Cop. He seems adamant that he wasn't roleblocked. So no, I don't.

[somestrangeflea]

Self hammer == epic fail

Forever...

[somestrangeflea]

Aimee called out VH, me, Vampdog, and Hjalti. She was scum, VH was scum, Hjalti was the doctor, so I'm assuming Vampdog isn't scum just like I did yesterday.

Uh, why? To bring you up on what you said yesterday...

So since Aimee called out Vampdog and Hjalti and DO claimed cop they're

currently

cleared. What part of that is difficult to grasp?

Currently, as in right now. As in since we're not in LYLO there's no point in going for people who's chance of being scum is, in your own words, slightly lower.

Whilst it's possible that it isn't, I think it's fair to assume that 4 alive with 2 killing parties is a LyLo situation, so why is it that yesterday, you were forcing me to clear Vamp and Hjallti under the reasoning that we weren't in LyLo, yet now that we are in LyLo, you're still pushing the reasoning that "Vampy can't be scum, because Aimee said he was!"?

[somestrangeflea]

scenario 1: we lynch town, leaving 1 scum, 1 SK, 1 town. the 2 killers choose their targets. both hit each other, town wins. 1 hits town, 1 hits the other, survivor wins. both hit town, draw game (deadlock tommorow, both kill each other that night)

scenario 2: we lynch SK or scum. Surviving killer kills town leaving 1 town, 1 killer. Game over, surviving killer wins.

Not quite... There's still the factor that the scum has a roleblocker (which, given the fact that D_O was Cop, is almost certain). Also, just to be clear here, there is a third scenario, No-Lynch, but I'm currently unsure of the pros and cons of that...

[somestrangeflea]

I think that the fact that we gotta lynch a Townie is an inconvenient truth. I am willing to hammer, but I want to wait for Nelly to respond to Muerrto's points before I do so.

[somestrangeflea]

So now we lynch Vampy who is Town and Muerrto & SST have to choose what to do. Both can target me leaving them at a deadlock tomorrow, one can target me leaving himself open to be killed by the other giving the win away. Or they can kill each other giving the town the win, what I am saying is "Why would they give the town the win?" We are hoping that they kill each other but why would they do that? If they kill each other they assure a victory for the town, no one wants to lose so lets say that just to be sure SST roleblocker blocks Muerrto and because of that we have no NK and now we are back on another Day.

The problem with this paragraph is, you're applying what you know (or, rather, what you claim to know), and assuming that all the other players know this to be true.

From an NPOV, assuming that Vampy is town (which I feel is reasonable to assume), then the remaining townie knows who the two killers are. But that's irrelevant, since the Townie can no longer do anything.

The killers, on the other hand, don't know who the other killer is.

I think SST would have voted off Vampy already if he had a NK available.

Is the cause of this, instead of some elaborate scum role that only has one kill, simply not just that I'm a Townie! I haven't hammered because discussion is still quite active, and I don't like cutting it off.

Read the roles. The blocker gets his ability but the mafia always get a night kill. So no matter what, if we lynch the SK, scum wins. If we lynch scum, the SK wins.

Read

what

roles...? This is not an Open game, and you have just admitted to having knowledge of the ScumRoleblocker role PM...

Care to explain..?

[somestrangeflea]

EDWOP:

"since the Townie can no longer do anything." was referring to

after

the lynch.

[somestrangeflea]

Read

what

roles...? This is not an Open game, and you have just admitted to having knowledge of the ScumRoleblocker role PM...

Care to explain..?

The mafia ALWAYS gets a night kill despite what roles they have. Period. Vampdog knows this, I know this, and

<snip>

So no, no knowledge of PM's, just knowledge of mafia.

Well yeah, you say that

now

! I know just as well that Mafia not being able to kill every night is a bizarre role (in a normal, anyway), but that doesn't chance the fact that the actual words "Read the roles." is a scummy thing to say in a closed game.

[somestrangeflea]

EDWOP: I know just as well

as you

that Mafia...

[somestrangeflea]

Well yeah, you say that

now

! I know just as well that Mafia not being able to kill every night is a bizarre role (in a normal, anyway), but that doesn't chance the fact that the actual words "Read the roles." is a scummy thing to say in a closed game.

Um...this is a NORMAL game, he's gotta follow roles dictated to him. So yeah, a blocker on the mafia side still night kills.

I know that, but that's not what this is about. This is about you telling Nelly to read the roles in a Closed setup.

He didn't, he killed Aimee.

This is now also about you apparently knowing exactly who killed who.

[somestrangeflea]

Here's how it is, this is a closed NORMAL set up. The mod has already posted a link to all the ROLES in the game that could be here. NOT the PM's. THE ROLES. So um yeah if you want me to search and re-post the link I can but how does my ability to read and remember posts make me scum? You have the same info, you just don't remember that you do.

Where...? A Ctrl+F of the word "role" in the mod's post didn't get me anything...

Second, TWO people died that night. Since the SCUM sure as hell didn't kill Aimee(ummm...cause she's SCUM), who killed her? Since we now know we HAVE an SK, I'd say it'd have to be um uhh..lemme think...

THE SK!!!!!

I have a habit of missing out incredibly obvious information...

Flea = suck...

You are seriously grasping the same way you did day 1 with the whole WIFOM thing. Please read more carefully and stop throwing around nonsenical crap because it distracts from the actual game.

Yeah, OK... =(

[somestrangeflea]

Is it possible that Hjallti was a paranoid doctor and he was both protecting and roleblocking DO this entire game not even knowing. Becuase if the SK took out Hjallti last night that mean he couldn't protect nor roleblock DO and he was killed by the scum.

Normally, night actions go through, even if the actor (?) was killed that night. From what I've seen, anyway.

[somestrangeflea]

Anyone else have any thoughts..?

[somestrangeflea]

Ergo, hammer Vampdog please(

although of course the two anti-town roles are hesitant to do this obviously as this delay shows

).

You seem to be in a rush to cut this day short...

Also, there isn't any reasoning behind your last sentence, other than the fact that, since you're claiming Town, then from your perspective, me and Nelly absolutely must be scum. This would be OK reasoning, if it weren't for the fact that now, you're making stuff up based around that.

Explain the bold, without giving me an argument like "well, you're scum, so it makes sense".

[somestrangeflea]

Vote: Vampy

Because, from the looks of his last post, Nelly won't...

[somestrangeflea]

I didn't die last night because I'm a Bulletproof Townie, and, just in case it's relevant, being Bulletproof can't be effected by Roleblocks, since it's a passive ability (doesn't require a Nightchoice). I did not die last night, and I will not die tonight.

Oh, and since we're all on different teams, the very worst of luck to both of you...

Vote: No lynch

[somestrangeflea]

I didn't die last night because I'm a Bulletproof Townie, and, just in case it's relevant, being Bulletproof can't be effected by Roleblocks, since it's a passive ability (doesn't require a Nightchoice). I did not die last night, and I will not die tonight.

Oh, and since we're all on different teams, the very worst of luck to both of you...

Vote: No lynch

If you are really a bullet proof townie like you say you are then you should have trusted me when I say I am townie and we could have killed Muerrto.

I'm a bullet-proof townie, therefore you are either a scum or an SK. Why, then, would I have any reason to listen to you?

[somestrangeflea]

Wonderfully run, and a great game all round!

Just out of curiosity, from the looks of the NKs, Muerrto bought my Bulletproof claim, meaning I'd've won if I'd actually decided to kill you!

C'est la vie...

It allowed Muerrto to slip up twice and tell flea, with 99% accuracy, who the last mafia was (although from the night choices I don't think flea believed it).

Mhm. I now realise that there are some things in Mafia that can't be talked out of...