Mini 496 - Wild West Mafia. Mod Abandoned

[Gorgon]

Just wanted to say hi. I'm rather busy at the mo, but I'll skim over the thread now and then post my thoughts at some point, sooner than later.

[Thin_Man]

I see little reason to believe you aren't just splicing general town concensuses with false suspicions that would be in your interest.

But do you see any reason to believe I

am

doing it? Because if you're just assuming the worst about me for no apparent reason, then you're bound to have a bad opinion about me, and it really isn't worth my time to fight that kind of unbiased prejudice.

Well having incomprehensible and wide suspicions is suspicious to me, and it would be less so if you gave reasons

It really shouldn't be. I already provided you with an example of a game where I did exactly this same thing as a dead townie, and in both there and here I've stated it as a conscious playstyle choice. To my mind, whilst I haven't proven I do it as scum, I have definitely proven I do it as town. for you to drag it out as a point against me, completely ignoring what should be the most major factor in the opinion making process is at worst exceptionally lazy, and at most rather scummy.

I understood the logic; it doesn't change the fact that in some circumstances it may benefit scum moreso than town

Do you think this is one of those circumstances? Cause if you're just hypothetically posing situations as to how I

could

be scum without thinking as to whether its likely, that's at best really pointless, and at worst an active attempt to turn irrelevant statements into points against me.

[pdcakes]

CKD I do have a question for you: You have asked me along with others who they think is suspicous and if they are comfortable with their vote, but who are you suspicious of? (i only ask cause i noticed you havent casted a vote)

[curiouskarmadog]

who am I suspicious of? Well if someone had a gun to my head and said pick two people whom you think could be scum, I would say ryan(yes still) and gow. Why have I not pushed a case on any of these two (especially gow)? Because there is no real strong case to push.

I thought ryan was a bit scummy, before I called him out on lurkish behavior, now he seems to be playing ball and mixing it up a bit. I spent a good hour reading through his games, but found nothing solid either way. gow, seems to be just floating under the radar and something about his "good townie-boy" comment rubbed me wrong. Like I said, weak cases at best, not even warrant a Fos

I dont really buy any of the current wagons out there right now, but being that it is Day 1, a strong case can not be made about anyone.

why are you not voting one, seems to me that if I were the vote leader, I would be pushing a case against someone...or at least trying to help the town with every bit of my time here.

[pdcakes]

My problem CKD is that i dont really see anyone too suspicious. I have people that i am suspicious of (ryan mainly) but i dont feel strongly enough to vote about it. And if I don't feel strongly about it then im not gonna vote it. If i end up being lynched then fine. Better a vanilla townie die than me casting a vote and lynching a pro-town power role.

[SirWario]

At the moment, I believe the most damning evidence lies on Paradox, but I am willing to change to achieve a lynch at deadline or if someone else acts scummier.

right now, the vote leader is pdcakes, how do you feel about him?

Just did a quick read on pdcakes posts only and literally more than half of his posts are using the same defense against the same argument. About the "I would lynch Adam if we are choosing randomly." I still think that was a newb move, but I find his more recent posts more scummy.

[Twomz]

My problem CKD is that i dont really see anyone too suspicious. I have people that i am suspicious of (ryan mainly) but i dont feel strongly enough to vote about it. And if I don't feel strongly about it then im not gonna vote it. If i end up being lynched then fine. Better a vanilla townie die than me casting a vote and lynching a pro-town power role.

Erm, stealth claim? If you claimed earlier I missed it >.<

[Paradoxombie]

I see little reason to believe you aren't just splicing general town concensuses with false suspicions that would be in your interest.

But do you see any reason to believe I

am

doing it? Because if you're just assuming the worst about me for no apparent reason, then you're bound to have a bad opinion about me, and it really isn't worth my time to fight that kind of unbiased prejudice.

I'm only telling you that you have failed to reduce my suspicion, which I assume you were trying to do since it seemed like the paragraph was in response to me.

Well having incomprehensible and wide suspicions is suspicious to me, and it would be less so if you gave reasons

It really shouldn't be. I already provided you with an example of a game where I did exactly this same thing as a dead townie, and in both there and here I've stated it as a conscious playstyle choice. To my mind, whilst I haven't proven I do it as scum, I have definitely proven I do it as town. for you to drag it out as a point against me, completely ignoring what should be the most major factor in the opinion making process is at worst exceptionally lazy, and at most rather scummy.

You're totally willing to lynch 4 people today, and I haven't the slightest idea why for the 2 you actually want to lynch. The two things I imagine scum would be interested in at this point are coordinating with buddies and establishing the false suspicions of the people you are interested in lynching. The way in which you posted seemed to lend itself to that. I don't see how I've dragged this out any further than you have.

I understood the logic; it doesn't change the fact that in some circumstances it may benefit scum moreso than town

Do you think this is one of those circumstances? Cause if you're just hypothetically posing situations as to how I

could

be scum without thinking as to whether its likely, that's at best really pointless, and at worst an active attempt to turn irrelevant statements into points against me.

I don't think I'm a good enough player to make that judgement call, but I do think it'd be better to be safe than sorry. I think it's better than a vibe and I'm not trying to convince anyone, atm.

[Thin_Man]

I'm only telling you that you have failed to reduce my suspicion, which I assume you were trying to do since it seemed like the paragraph was in response to me.

The fact I failed to reduce your suspicion implies that you had suspicion of me in the first place. I don't care about you putting forward something that puts me across in a neutral light, but making points to show in the particular fashion you have a mixed opinion of someone is bizarre, cause it really doesn't prove anything. I still think the original paragraph you wrote was phrased as an attack against me. Otherwise you're just pointing out that you have no reason to think me

anti-town

, and lack of townieness is a fairly lame reason to be suspicious of someone in comparison to the people who are actually scummy, as opposed to neutral. That is, unless you are convinced everyone else in this game is a townie?

You're totally willing to lynch 4 people today, and I haven't the slightest idea why for the 2 you actually want to lynch. The two things I imagine scum would be interested in at this point are coordinating with buddies and establishing the false suspicions of the people you are interested in lynching. The way in which you posted seemed to lend itself to that. I don't see how I've dragged this out any further than you have.

I don't really care that you don't know why I want to lynch the people I want to lynch. You should really be able to figure out, at the very least, my basic reasons for doing so, and if you can't, you're obscenely lazy, or you're seeing something that I'm not/reading something differently, in which case, feel free to say it to try and change my opinion. Also, I think I've made it exceptionally clear that I don't actually want to vote either of you, and my only reason for doing so is because I believe the main viable choice to be between you and pdcakes. And I think Pdcakes is townish and I think you scummy, so it would be retarded of me to just stick to my two people that I 'want' to vote for and let someone I think is townie get lynched over someone I think is possible scum. If I had a majority share in this game, Adele/Gorgon would likely get lynched today. But that isn't an option, so it seems. (On another note, I personally disagree with you. The thing I think the scum would be most interested in doing at this point is pushing the candidate they want to push toward a lynch without getting suspicion on them. Scum tend to get very antsy around a lynch, and I think you're attributing them far too much sensibility and thought. I agree it's certainly possible that scum theoretically could do that, but I think it unlikely they would)

I don't think I'm a good enough player to make that judgement call, but I do think it'd be better to be safe than sorry. I think it's better than a vibe and I'm not trying to convince anyone, atm.

So you can't decide whether I'm scum or not, so you're going to vote me because I could theoretically be scum? Thats an utterly bullshit opinion, and would lead to town failure in very game if implemented, so I don't get why you're implementing it here.

[Paradoxombie]

Thin_man I find it annoying that you blame me for dragging this out when you continue ramble and repeat yourself. You try to justify your suspicions without explaining them and that does nothing for me as I immediately pointed out. I haven't voted you as you claimed and I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything except that I authentically suspect you, a favor you have not returned. Whether or not I accurately explained the reason for my opinion in my original post on the subject is somewhat irrelevant considering I believe I have made myself clear by now.

So you can't decide whether I'm scum or not, so you're going to vote me because I could theoretically be scum? Thats an utterly bullshit opinion, and would lead to town failure in very game if implemented, so I don't get why you're implementing it here.

If being willing to vote someone means that you've decided they're scum, then you must think you've already found them all, since you're now willing to vote and lynch 4 players. A little presumptuous, imo.

[Gorgon]

Okay, I've finished the skim, and I don't think pdcakes is the lynch. Just wanted to make that clear. More to come later. Now, to bed.

[Thin_Man]

Thin_man I find it annoying that you blame me for dragging this out when you continue ramble and repeat yourself.

I never accused you of dragging this out. I'm accusing you of having bad opinions.

I haven't voted you as you claimed and I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything except that I authentically suspect you, a favor you have not returned.

That entire statement was an extension. You were trying to imply that I was suspicious for something, and then when I challenged it, you backpedalled, saying that what I did

could

maybe possibly be scummy but you ain't got the brains to or temperament to bother trying to figure out whether it is or not, which begs the question of why you even bothered saying this irrelevant point in the first place.

If being willing to vote someone means that you've decided they're scum, then you must think you've already found them all, since you're now willing to vote and lynch 4 players. A little presumptuous, imo.

But being willing to vote someone does not mean you think them scum. It means you think them more likely scum than all other available options. I certainly don't believe that all 3/4 scum are within that group, though I don't think two is at all unlikely.

[Paradoxombie]

I never accused you of dragging this out. I'm accusing you of having bad opinions.

for you to drag it out as a point against me, completely ignoring what should be the most major factor in the opinion making process is at worst exceptionally lazy, and at most rather scummy

You were trying to imply that I was suspicious for something, and then when I challenged it, you backpedalled, saying that what I did

could

maybe possibly be scummy but you ain't got the brains to or temperament to bother trying to figure out whether it is or not, which begs the question of why you even bothered saying this irrelevant point in the first place.

I think it's totally relevant that somthing you said may benefit scum in certain situations. Especially in a non-normal game where many unexpected situations are possible. I doubt anyone would take my word for it if I am as wrong as you say, anyway.

If being willing to vote someone means that you've decided they're scum, then you must think you've already found them all, since you're now willing to vote and lynch 4 players. A little presumptuous, imo.

But being willing to vote someone does not mean you think them scum. It means you think them more likely scum than all other available options. I certainly don't believe that all 3/4 scum are within that group, though I don't think two is at all unlikely.

Well I was going to make a point in response to your previous statement, but in the end, the simple fact is, I'd rather vote you than a random vote.

[Aimee]

Sorry guys. ;_;

I'm half here - but I will probably reply to everything today/tomorrow. Just as a heads up.

[Thin_Man]

I never accused you of dragging this out. I'm accusing you of having bad opinions.

for you to drag it out as a point against me, completely ignoring what should be the most major factor in the opinion making process is at worst exceptionally lazy, and at most rather scummy

ah, ok, I get why you thought that now. I meant 'drag it out' in the sense of 'bring it out', not 'dragging on and on'.

You were trying to imply that I was suspicious for something, and then when I challenged it, you backpedalled, saying that what I did

could

maybe possibly be scummy but you ain't got the brains to or temperament to bother trying to figure out whether it is or not, which begs the question of why you even bothered saying this irrelevant point in the first place.

I think it's totally relevant that somthing you said may benefit scum in certain situations. Especially in a non-normal game where many unexpected situations are possible. I doubt anyone would take my word for it if I am as wrong as you say, anyway.

But you do see why putting forward neutral opinions against people in the way you did is scummy, yes? It means you have an easy out against any defense that anyone makes against your point ("well I am undecided re: that, guess I could be wrong"), and it means that you are effectively baiting someone else to attack someone

for

you, divesting all responsibility for any false attacks nearly entirely onto them.

If being willing to vote someone means that you've decided they're scum, then you must think you've already found them all, since you're now willing to vote and lynch 4 players. A little presumptuous, imo.

But being willing to vote someone does not mean you think them scum. It means you think them more likely scum than all other available options. I certainly don't believe that all 3/4 scum are within that group, though I don't think two is at all unlikely.

Well I was going to make a point in response to your previous statement, but in the end, the simple fact is, I'd rather vote you than a random vote.

So, seeing as how all reasons aren't very good, it's a gut feeling then, yes?

I haven't commented on pdcakes claim yet. I think he's telling the truth and see nothing I dislike in the fashion of the claim.

[Thin_Man]

So, seeing as how all

your stated

reasons aren't very good, it's a gut feeling then, yes?

[ryan]

Okay, I've finished the skim, and I don't think pdcakes is the lynch. Just wanted to make that clear. More to come later. Now, to bed.

Than who's the candidate and why?

[Gorgon]

Okay, I've finished the skim, and I don't think pdcakes is the lynch. Just wanted to make that clear. More to come later. Now, to bed.

Than who's the candidate and why?

I'm not entirely sure who to pick. I just know that pdcakes looks town to me, his initial behaviour aside. He has redeemed himself in his last few posts, and has brought up some interesting points. It's more a gut feeling than anything; pdcakes just seems 'genuine' to me. He got picked on for a 'mistake' that got blown out of proportion, but other than that, I have little on him. I don't like 'obvious' and noncontroversial lynches on Day 1, like he would probably be - they are too easy for scum to latch onto. Although there is little time left, I believe there is room to look elsewhere. If pdcakes get lynched today, I won't have anything to do with it.

I'm sure I could elaborate further if you want me to, but I'm seeing you, kabenon007, and Paradoxombie as possible scum candidates.

You, because you seem lurkish, although there could be other explanations for this other than you being scum. You do seem quite confident, too. You're certainly not at the top of my list, although you are on it.

kabenon007, because he seems lurkish as well, and also I believe his attacks on people so far (pdcakes, then you, then Paradoxombie) seem weak and might well be disingenuine and opportunistic (and thus scummy).

Paradoxombie, because, well, he gives me a bad vibe overall. I found it pretty weird that he should have FoS'd Twomz for suggesting no lynch, then upgraded it to a HoS because he didn't get bandwagoned! It might easily be seen as trying to get anything to stick to Twomz. He's gone downhill since then; IMO. His argument with Thin_Man (Whom I see as quite town so far) is also not winning him any favours.

Aimee needs to voice her suspicions, btw. She seems pretty non-committal so far.

[Gorgon]

Ah, yes, and in light of the above ...

Unvote

Vote: Paradoxombie

[ryan]

Sorry guys. ;_;

I'm half here - but I will probably reply to everything today/tomorrow. Just as a heads up.

Deadline is approaching Aimee, so some actual content would be appreciated.

[curiouskarmadog]

do we have a currently vote count? I am leaning toward pdcakes is town...also against a no lynch, as everyone should be.

[Paradoxombie]

But you do see why putting forward neutral opinions against people in the way you did is scummy, yes? It means you have an easy out against any defense that anyone makes against your point ("well I am undecided re: that, guess I could be wrong"), and it means that you are effectively baiting someone else to attack someone

for

you, divesting all responsibility for any false attacks nearly entirely onto them.

I don't mean to be neutral. I do see it as scummy to ask for early claims as you did. Most of our suspicions are already known and refuted to the best of the targets' abilities. We shouldn't need much extra time to decide who's next in line to be lynched. But openly asking anybody for early claims seems condusive to multiple or unecessary claims.

So, seeing as how all reasons aren't very good, it's a gut feeling then, yes?

Even if my reasons for FOSing were poor, which I do not admit to, that still clearly makes it more than a gut feeling.

[Paradoxombie]

EBWOP: corrected the quote tag

But you do see why putting forward neutral opinions against people in the way you did is scummy, yes? It means you have an easy out against any defense that anyone makes against your point ("well I am undecided re: that, guess I could be wrong"), and it means that you are effectively baiting someone else to attack someone

for

you, divesting all responsibility for any false attacks nearly entirely onto them.

I don't mean to be neutral. I do see it as scummy to ask for early claims as you did. Most of our suspicions are already known and refuted to the best of the targets' abilities. We shouldn't need much extra time to decide who's next in line to be lynched. But openly asking anybody for early claims seems condusive to multiple or unecessary claims.

So, seeing as how all reasons aren't very good, it's a gut feeling then, yes?

Even if my reasons for FOSing were poor, which I do not admit to, that still clearly makes it more than a gut feeling.

[Twomz]

do we have a currently vote count? I am leaning toward pdcakes is town...also against a no lynch, as everyone should be.

I do not agree... what is the point of lynching someone who has at most 3 votes on them? And if we decide not to lynch them, it goes to the guy with JUST TWO VOTES OUT OF TWELEVE ON THEM. If you really do not want a no lynch, provide enough evidence on someone to get a good number of votes on them.

I personally would prefer a no lynch to a lynch of someone with 2 or 3 votes on them... unless there are less than 6 players left and we have a whole game of data to draw from.

[theopor_COD]

Filler post.