Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[Elias_the_thief]

no it wasnt. the conversation was very game relevant. Hermit threatened to vote me or ask for a mod kill based on language alone. Learn to read, this discussion needed to be had, unless you wanted hermit getting me lynched because I swear too much.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Guys, go wear your 'frankie says relax' t-shirts and save me the trouble, will ya ?

[Elias_the_thief]

huh?

Nevermind. You're too young to get the pun. -Mod

[TheHermit]

If he's too young, then so am I.

I'm wondering what makes ckd want me to do a PbP on him? Well, if he says so I guess I can. Gonna have to be tomorrow, though... doing Elias wiped me out.

[curiouskarmadog]

huh?

Nevermind. You're too young to get the pun. -Mod

it is a reference to a song in the 80's, I am not to young.

[curiouskarmadog]

no it wasnt. the conversation was very game relevant. Hermit threatened to vote me or ask for a mod kill based on language alone. Learn to read, this discussion needed to be had, unless you wanted hermit getting me lynched because I swear too much.

the conversation was not needed (on both sides)..if he had a problem with it, he should have asked the mod, I doubt the mod would of killed you without a warning..conversation is stale and not needed (or relevant).

[Elias_the_thief]

he threatened to vote me on this basis. it is relevant.

[curiouskarmadog]

I dont think he threatened you based solely on you cursing, but if you want to use it to win yet another irrelevant conversation go ahead..

that being said we are 4 days away from deadline, we need to start getting together a vote..seems like everyone has mentioned they could vote elias (but yet there is only one vote on him)..I said I would vote if needed, but would prefer a gorckat lynch...

[Elias_the_thief]

I'm really trying not to let his rampant swearing influence my decision, but his temper is making me want to vote him just so I don't have to hear it anymore.

Anyhoo, I still think Hermit is the play, but I'll reread yesterday and his interactions with the lynching wagon to make sure, or maybe jumpstart my scumhunting.

[curiouskarmadog]

jesus christ let it go...he also said in the same post,

He's been warned once about this already; if he continues verbally abusing other players, I am going to ask the mod to kill/replace him.

he ended with this statement, sounds like he would have done this instead..it also sounds like you are trying to make a big deal out of nothing...which now has made the conversation relevant for me...out of all the things you could be doing "today" you want to argue about this..

[Elias_the_thief]

First: Since you knew that oj voted randomly, why did you think his single vote was scummy?

Firstly, I never said the vote was random. I said it could have been one of three things, but theres no way for us to tell what it is. The reason that I say this now is because when we look back, we see he never made another post (except asking for replacement). However, at the time of his vote, I had no idea that he wouldnt say another game related word. Thus, I considered his jump onto a bandwagon without explanation scummy .

Second: You mentioned that a vote on me would "stand out" when people were picking through the game. Why did you say this?

Could you quote the post I did this in? My memory is a bit foggy. I THINK it was wehn I was being questioned about my vote choice. And I think I thought it would stand out because most other players were voting Nelly at the time. Plus, I didnt feel like writing up my reasons for voting you in depth in that post, and if I had voted you without good reasoning then it would have stood out.

Third: Now that you know both ckd and I cannot both be scum, what do you think of his strong push for para in the closing of Day 1? More to the point, given the choice between me and ckd, who do you think is more likely to be scum?

Im not sure on this one, though I'll admit you bring up a good point. CKD's frenzied push towards para at the end of the day is notable and scummy. I'm not sure who is more likely to be scum at this point.

And a question for everyone else: Oman's list. What are your thoughts on it? Is Elias right in calling it WIFOM? Do you think Oman poisoned the results because he knew he was about to get vigged? Or do you think vollkan's assessment of the situation, that his play can only be explained by attempting to protect Elias, makes more sense?

Firstly, Vollkan later admitted that he was not sure the motivation behind the list (near the end of day 1). Also, I dont think I need to reiterate it, but to say that there is no benefit to scum to put all townies on the list is clearly wifom. If we think that, then we'll assume theres one scum on it, and then we'll try to lynch that person. If they are in fact a townie, then its proved there is benefit for scum to put all townies.

Anyways, I think there is one thing I can point to that should basically clear me. When there were two lynch candidates, para and hermit, which did I push for? Hermit. Who got lynched? Para. What was Para? Town. Now why in hell would I try to push pressure off of a townie onto another player, were I mafia? You can point to yesterday, where I push for Hermit over Yagami, but isnt this simply me being consistent with my previous opinions? I dunno.

Also, Hermit, did you notice how I didnt swear? When people simply ask me questions, then I know that they will listen to my answers. Its only when I feel that people are not listening to what I'm saying that I'm forced to throw in some language to turn some heads.

[gorckat]

I have two questions now. They can't be answered definitely, but I want people to think about them:
Why would Oman want Pulse vigged over Elias?
Why would Oman want Pulse killed before Para?
Why did Oman support a "plan" which did not result in Elias dying at all?

Three questions actually. And I have no idea. Thats why I feel this is the only good evidence you have against me.

This screws us if we're town too. I'm betting the town decides to lynch me, finds I'm town, proceeds to lynch para ( i dunno his alignment) and if he's town, suddenly the town just had two mislynches.

Yes, it screws you if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I'm saying it screws me as town as well.

Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it.

There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it.

The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I never attacked you here. It's the only evidence I will accept without a fight. Why do you keep bringing it up?

I still think Oman’s list is key.

Yes, it screws you

[Elias]

if you are town; but you are ignoring the fact that Oman favoured keeping you (and Para) alive. Oman could very easily have rejected my "plan" and then criticised me for making such a ridiculous suggestion. Instead, he approved it. There was no advantage in Oman approving the plan if Elias, Para and Pulse are all pro-town. Indeed, in such a case there was only disadvantage insofar as he would look scummy for supporting it. The only means by which supporting the plan would be desirable would be in keeping his scum buddies alive. Otherwise, he would be doing something ridiculously scummy when it offered him no advantages and substantial disadvantages and opportunity costs (the opportunity being the chance to criticise me).

I very much agree with this entire post, and if it is true then Elias is scum.

Alright. Youre claiming that Oman has no advantage from doing this. Dont you see this is completely wifom? If everyone thinks that, thinks im scum because of it, and mislynches me, theres his advantage right there. I mean, I could easily combat what youre saying with "itd be dumb for scum to put his buddy last, because it would get his buddy lynched" but cant you see how thats equally wifom? The whole fucking list is wifom.

Oman brings Pulse into it (I never mentioned Pulse, nor did anyone else) and says Pulse looks more pro-town than Elias (implying strongly that he favoured Pulse's vigging). It would be very odd for Oman to do this if both Pulse and Elias are pro-town or if Pulse is scum and Elias is torn. This only makes sense if Oman is trying to protect Elias.

Again, wifom.

Again, I have no idea why he would say that. All I know is that I am town and he was scum. I dont know what else to say about this particular piece of evidence.

I think he knew there was no way to explain his way out of that. Sounds like scum trying to get the subject dropped. I really don't think oman would've given 3 Townie names on his list. I think he gave 2 town names (me and Para) and one scum - Elias, last on the list. If Elias is scum, it definitely makes sense that he'd much rather have seen Pulse (now me) vigged than Elias.

I really,

really

,

really

hate arguments like this. Let me ask you this; does a townie like being lynched? No, they dont. So, wouldnt you get the exact same argument out of a townie defending himself if he faces something he cant explain? I mean, I didnt make the list. I cant explain as town or scum. This argument doesnt make me any alignment at all, so stop pretending that what you think it sounds like is automatically what it actually is.

Elias is still my front-runner for suspicion, mostly for the reasons that Setael went into concerning vollkan's dissection of Oman's list. His Nelly vote may have a townie explanation, but it's hard to defend against what seems to be scum sticking their neck out on his behalf.

So most of your suspicions on me are based on an interpretation of an entirely wifom issue? honestly, its like, the definition of wifom. its like this:
"he obviously would put one scum on, cuz whats his advantage otherwise?"
"ah, but what if he knows that we'd think that, and do it so as to set up a lynch of 3 innocents?"
"ah, but he would know that we would know that he would actually have an advantage from putting three innocents on a list"
and so on and so forth. This argument is so BS its not even funny.

Re-reading Elias, I noticed this shift- Oman's list was volkan's only piece of undisputed evidence, but since then Elias has blasted everyone else trying to use it.

There might be other mentions of it, but these were culled from Elias' posts alone right before I punch out at work.

[gorckat]

Heh- what a cross post

[gorckat]

Hat trick and not neccesarily game related:

Also, Hermit, did you notice how I didnt swear? When people simply ask me questions, then I know that they will listen to my answers. Its only when I feel that people are not listening to what I'm saying that I'm forced to throw in some language to turn some heads.

That seems a bit immature, but we can hash that out post game, in GD or via PM or never. Just my two cents.

[Elias_the_thief]

Yes, I am well aware that I changed my stance earlier. This is because 1) The arguments being based off of the list have changed since weve found that the other two people on it were town, and 2) because I didnt realize its wifom nature til now. I think this is excusable, since none of you realized it until I pointed it out. Though no one has responded to my point that it is wifom, besides to ask other peoples opinions and point out the change.

Also, no one has responded to my point about my steer away from para being protown, and also being consistent with my steer away from yagami, towards the same person (hermit).

Also, everyone who is saying that I was downplaying the Yagami case:
1) What evidence is there besides the hammer? I asked earlier today, no ones come up with anything.
2) I said that I didnt understand the case on Yagami yesterday. No one explained it or tried to persuade me, or anything. So why do you bring it up now as if I didnt try to figure it out yesterday?

[Elias_the_thief]

jesus christ let it go...

Which one of us is making game related posts, and which one is dwelling on this conversation? I just made two game relevant posts in between the posts on this conversation...how many have you made?

he ended with this statement, sounds like he would have done this instead..

Maybe thats how you interpreted it. But he specifically said that my swearing was going to influence his voting decision earlier in the post. What you just stated is entirely your opinion that the modkill possibility was more likely.

it also sounds like you are trying to make a big deal out of nothing...which now has made the conversation relevant for me...out of all the things you could be doing "today" you want to argue about this..

1) it was relevant. He threatened the possibility to vote me. I as a townie do not want to be mislynched.
2) What exactly in my last post changed your opinion? Before you said we were debating something irrelevant...all I've done since is argue that it IS relevant. Its not like I made it a voting issue or anything. Basically what I'm saying is, I think the only reason youre claiming its relevant now when it wasnt before, is so you dont get called for doing the same exact thing you claimed I was doing.
3) Again, I never stopped posting in a game related manner. I've just been having this debate on the side. Have you continued to concentrate on the main issues? not really

[curiouskarmadog]

Anyways, I think there is one thing I can point to that should basically clear me.

When there were two lynch candidates, para and hermit, which did I push for? Hermit. Who got lynched? Para. What was Para? Town. Now why in hell would I try to push pressure off of a townie onto another player, were I mafia?

You can point to yesterday, where I push for Hermit over Yagami, but isnt this simply me being consistent with my previous opinions? I dunno.

ummm, you might have "pushed" for hermit, but you voted for Para. Once e you could not get the needed support for a Hermit bandwagon, so you jumped on the Para one?…

[Elias_the_thief]

Also, Hermit, did you notice how I didnt swear? When people simply ask me questions, then I know that they will listen to my answers. Its only when I feel that people are not listening to what I'm saying that I'm forced to throw in some language to turn some heads.

That seems a bit immature, but we can hash that out post game, in GD or via PM or never. Just my two cents.

Immature? Its not as if I'm a child who wants his opinion heard. Its a matter of me being mislynched because people just dont listen to my defense. I use swearing as a tool in order to protect myself from being lynched, and thus I help the town by doing so.

[Elias_the_thief]

Anyways, I think there is one thing I can point to that should basically clear me.

When there were two lynch candidates, para and hermit, which did I push for? Hermit. Who got lynched? Para. What was Para? Town. Now why in hell would I try to push pressure off of a townie onto another player, were I mafia?

You can point to yesterday, where I push for Hermit over Yagami, but isnt this simply me being consistent with my previous opinions? I dunno.

ummm, you might have "pushed" for hermit, but you voted for Para. Once e you could not get the needed support for a Hermit bandwagon, so you jumped on the Para one?…

This is a mischaracterization. I had been pushing for a Hermit lynch, ie, I had my vote on him most of the day. Yes I switched to para, but I mean, he's townie. As scum, why would I push for any certain townie over another? If para had turned out to be scum, and I had such a push for Hermit over him, youd have a point. But why in hell would I push away from para in favor of Hermit, when pretty much the whole town was already on him?

[curiouskarmadog]

it also sounds like you are trying to make a big deal out of nothing...which now has made the conversation relevant for me...out of all the things you could be doing "today" you want to argue about this..

1) it was relevant. He threatened the possibility to vote me. I as a townie do not want to be mislynched.
2) What exactly in my last post changed your opinion? Before you said we were debating something irrelevant...all I've done since is argue that it IS relevant. Its not like I made it a voting issue or anything. Basically what I'm saying is, I think the only reason youre claiming its relevant now when it wasnt before, is so you dont get called for doing the same exact thing you claimed I was doing.
3) Again, I never stopped posting in a game related manner. I've just been having this debate on the side. Have you continued to concentrate on the main issues? not really

it is relevant for me now, because you keep making a big deal out of nothing and you wont let it drop. You werent going to be mod killed, you werent close to being "mislynched". Besides, if you are a townie (as you stated) and the town still wins, you win. Only person who really cares if they get lynched or not are mafia. Who do you think will lynch you solely on the fact that you said "fuck"?

[curiouskarmadog]

Anyways, I think there is one thing I can point to that should basically clear me.

When there were two lynch candidates, para and hermit, which did I push for? Hermit. Who got lynched? Para. What was Para? Town. Now why in hell would I try to push pressure off of a townie onto another player, were I mafia?

You can point to yesterday, where I push for Hermit over Yagami, but isnt this simply me being consistent with my previous opinions? I dunno.

ummm, you might have "pushed" for hermit, but you voted for Para. Once e you could not get the needed support for a Hermit bandwagon, so you jumped on the Para one?…

This is a mischaracterization. I had been pushing for a Hermit lynch, ie, I had my vote on him most of the day. Yes I switched to para, but I mean, he's townie. As scum, why would I push for any certain townie over another? If para had turned out to be scum, and I had such a push for Hermit over him, youd have a point. But why in hell would I push away from para in favor of Hermit, when pretty much the whole town was already on him?

ok thats it..

vote elias

It was not a mischaracterization, it was the facts. You say you are consistent because you kept pushing for hermit. So why did you jump on the Para wagon? Why would you push one townie over the other if you were mafia? Seriously you are asking that question? Wow. Well, because one was close to being lynched, and the other wasn’t. Last time I checked, mafia wants to kill townies, they don’t care which ones.

[curiouskarmadog]

just in case

unvote, vote elias

[curiouskarmadog]

Also, everyone who is saying that I was downplaying the Yagami case:
1) What evidence is there besides the hammer? I asked earlier today, no ones come up with anything.
2) I said that I didnt understand the case on Yagami yesterday. No one explained it or tried to persuade me, or anything. So why do you bring it up now as if I didnt try to figure it out yesterday?

again you are using this defense? I thought we already established you didnt "see" or missed the arguements that were made against Yag...the cases were made, now quick backpedalling...did you not "see" the cases or did you not understand them?

[TheHermit]

Why would you push one townie over the other if you were mafia? Seriously you are asking that question? Wow. Well, because one was close to being lynched, and the other wasn’t. Last time I checked, mafia wants to kill townies, they don’t care which ones.

I find this especially odd considering Elias' track record as mafia... 9 wins and he's never learned that mafia don't care which townie gets lynched?

[Elias_the_thief]

I am using the words synonomously. I asked about the case, because I didnt see one. But people were voting him. I asked about it, I got nothing until after SPAG was lynched. So you can see that this was simply me using a different term to say the same thing. But you used it as a clever way to get around both of my points.

1) WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE BESIDES THE HAMMER? ANSWER GODDAMMIT!?!

2) WHY DID YOU NOT ATTEMPT TO TELL ME THE CASE YESTERDAY, YET TRY TO USE IT AS EVIDENCE TODAY?

Will you answer those if I do that?

It was not a mischaracterization, it was the facts.

No, it was a mischaracterization. You presented it as if I was attacking Hermit all day, while simultaneously voting Para. The fact was, I voted Hermit, and attacked him most of the day, WHILE there was all that pressure on Hermit. Why would I even begin to vote and attack Hermit at all if there was already pressure on para that I could have easily jumped on?

You say you are consistent because you kept pushing for hermit. So why did you jump on the Para wagon?

Because I thought he was scum too? It was obvious that Hermit was not being lynched, because everyone was being steadfast on Para, and I was afraid of a no lynch. A better question is "what motivation do I have to start the day by attacking a less likely lynch candidate, were I mafia?"

Why would you push one townie over the other if you were mafia? Seriously you are asking that question? Wow. Well, because one was close to being lynched, and the other wasn’t.

Dont townies do the same thing, if hes suspicious of both of them?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey wait, didnt you threaten to do the same thing? And arent you claiming to be a protown player? So is this post just scummy or hypocritical?

I would rather lynch Para, for lies upon mis truths...but if the time comes I will vote Elias...I am not sold on Hermit and if everything remains constant will not vote for him Day 1.

And wait...didnt you also completely change your opinion about voting Hermit based entirely on a post by Jordan outlining points ID ALREADY MADE?!?

great post...

looks like Hermit will hang today....I would perfer it to be Para..but Hermit's play is just bad.

Then after the next post you change your opinion once again, driving more for Para then before?

Then you just push your way to a lynch with the slipup. And youre trying to accuse me of being suspicious for switching to para? Youre play that day was much more questionable then mine. Honestly, I'm starting to think, YOU might be our scum. I think you vote for me now because youre frustrated, and people have thought about voting me before. It seems youre thinkin "one last BS point, that oughtta do it". But whatever. This is a type of argument I hate. But in all seriousness, youre basis for voting for me is BS and hypocritical.

Also, I ask the town to look back to his push on Para: a supposed slip up that let him push his way to a lynch. He seems to be doing the same thing here. This doesnt make him scum, but when he did this last time, did para come up town or scum?
Just sayin.