Mafia 63: Wolves - Game over!

[cicero]

I'm in to replace Ancalagon. Allo all. I hear it's slow in here. Will read the thread soon and report my findings... of filthy scummy werewolves! mwa!

[cicero]

If this was a court of law I'd have to present evidence.

This isn't.

So I don't have to.

*Sticks tongue out at DoS*

WTFRACKIN'FRICK?

Vote PookyTheMagicalBear

I haven't finished reading the thread yet so I may take this off - maybe somewhere there is a roleclaim or a whatever or maybe Scarecrow/DOS looks super scummy. I'm not done looking. But this IS a court of law and you DO have to present evidence. Or you get lynched.

[cicero]

I knew there had to be something like that. Who is claiming cop btw? (Sorry it takes a long time to catch up

and digest

long threads. But he should still be interested in helping the town.)

[cicero]

Thanks.

Unvote

Im about halfway through at this point and I have my eye on Talitha but that could change easily. And probably will. I haven't even gotten to the part that made everyone vote scarecrow/dragonsofsummer. I do know my predecessor suspected scarecrow at one point, but that isn't the latest wagon. Going as fast as I can.

(I'm mostly posting a bit as I go along to let y'all know I'm still here. There have been too many quits in this game).

[cicero]

Your cowardice and treason against the cause has been noted Skruffs.

May you burn in the darkest hells for this treason!

A bored pooky suggesting a bussing strategem?

[cicero]

I'm fine with a massclaim if people want to I guess. Whatever the town thinks is best.

[cicero]

My analysis and my wolf list:

I don't think scum would have come up with the mass claim idea.

11. bobbyplump

Why not? Seems like a perfectly good thing for scum to want to know. Especially in this game. And Talitha hasn't agreed to claim. She's said she's "wolvesbane" and won't tell us what that is until everyone else is done - a move that will limit her accidentally claiming someone else's role. I'm not saying she is or isn't scum, but I disagree with your analysis there. Thoughts?

[cicero]

Also, I have been in a very grumpy mood this week, so I'm not very tolerant of these annoying little accusations with no substance to them.

And I should care because...?

[cicero]

Anyway, as you can tell. I quickly get testy when people threaten to be testy.

But I do have to say in Talitha's defense that I am far more likely to believe that someone with an immunity power is named "wolvesbane" than "Gong Farmer" who "cleans out the latrines."

[cicero]

unvote

Watch pooky be a godfather, I just know it.

I'd be... rather shocked.

[cicero]

I thought long and hard about what the experienced player would do in my position - and I don't know. I'm not experienced. So I shall claim honestly and I hope I don't get admonished for it and I hope it helps the town and doesn't hurt it.

I'm your vigilante. Actually the title is Hunter. I shoot arrows. I win when the town wins. Town loses and I lose. I have no connection to the fletcher who makes arrows. I apparently have an unlimited supply. Unfortunately, my predecessor didn't seem to be very good at hitting scum in the night, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do tonight...

The good thing about my honest claim is that even if I get nightkilled tonight (I don't know if I noticed a doctor did I?) is that I think it means you can trust N9V, which means I now trust him and pooky and whoever else he cleared (I forget).

The bad side is I'll probably get night killed tonight.

[cicero]

Tonight I shall be shooting Skruffs. Be ready, Gong Farmer.

Shooting Talitha won't test her. And it won't matter anyway because I expect I'll be Night Killed tonight.

[cicero]

well this is easy

lynch DoS,

Shoot Skruffs at night, if he's real gong farmer it wont kill him.

have another investigation

Test TAlitha night afterwards same way

/agreed

Let's lynch DOS now, the claim didn't do anything for me.

Okey.

Vote Dragons of Summer

[cicero]

I'm fine with being tested, but I only have a finite number of times I can use my wolfsbane. I don't wanna say how many times i can use it or how many times i have already used it. Just that you need to let me know if I'm going to be vig targeted, so i can know to use it.

I just started wondering whether it would work against the vig though... logically it would only work against the wolves.

I think we should lynch the person who has the most chance of being scum. In my opinion it's either Skruffs (what if he's the godfather and can't be killed at night, hence his claim?) or bobbyplump (who is he back up for??? No evidence of a doc, and even if the doc has lied about their role to protect themselves, it's a dodgy claim and him and his predecessor have been acting like scum the whole game).

(Rushed post, I'm at work right now)

By the way everybody. The above looks like a scum slipping up. Keep it in mind for later. Rushed post. Not clear on her role. Wants to keep it vague. Sorry, I'm a newbie and all but I'm not buying your story right now, Tally.

[cicero]

Speaking of Pooky... odd that he has a townie role called 'villager', when the other claimed townies are 'butcher' and 'baker'.

Yeah. I don't buy Pooky's claim either. He's either godfather or a power role that didn't want to play the mass claim game. His post was basically screw you I'm not doing this exercise.

Tally I'll answer your question to me (about my accusation of you) a bit later in the day. Takes more time and work is beckoning. Just letting you know I haven't forgotten it.

[cicero]

Cicero - scum slipping up? Please explain.

I have not kept anything hidden about my role apart from the number of times I can use my self-protection, and how many times (if any) I've used it so far. The only people who would really benefit from me putting this information in the open, are the scum.

If there

is

actually a doc out there, they should protect cicero, IMO.

OK. Here is how I see this. It is just a possibility but the reason for me flagging your last post which read:

I'm fine with being tested, but I only have a finite number of times I can use my wolfsbane. I don't wanna say how many times i can use it or how many times i have already used it. Just that you need to let me know if I'm going to be vig targeted, so i can know to use it.

I just started wondering whether it would work against the vig though... logically it would only work against the wolves.

I think we should lynch the person who has the most chance of being scum. In my opinion it's either Skruffs (what if he's the godfather and can't be killed at night, hence his claim?) or bobbyplump (who is he back up for??? No evidence of a doc, and even if the doc has lied about their role to protect themselves, it's a dodgy claim and him and his predecessor have been acting like scum the whole game).

(Rushed post, I'm at work right now)

The important part of the above post is:

I just started wondering whether it would work against the vig though... logically it would only work against the wolves.

There are a lot of problems here.

First - I don't believe that you would have to wonder. You would know.

Second - We already had this conversation. Remember,Skruffs said:

Talitha's role seems to be based entirely on wolves, whereas mine makes me unliked by all. Sorry.

Look, it's possible that you are town and wolvesbane and all but every time you talk about your role you look scummy doing it. You encouraged mass claim then when it was your turn only gave the title. Then got defensive when pressed about it. And then acted unclear on the powers. If you are town, you are being pretty distracting.

Anyway, I'm not shooting you or voting you right now and will be doing a long re-read before I do so. (It's hard to come into a 34 page, slow moving game). I'm just noting what I see as I see it. Best way I can help for now.

[cicero]

I just re-read again. Man this makes my head hurt. But something about the DoS wagon seems wrong. For now, and with apologies for extending the day...

unvote

My random thoughts that still don't all make sense:

N9V and Pooky

I am in the odd position of having been cleared by N9V and yet I am now looking sidelong at he and pooky. N9V is inexplicably still alive. Don't claimed cops tend to get torn to shreds? I dont think Pooky is a godfather because
I think the Sorceror that died was the wolf godfather.

Incidentally, I'm new to this Mafia game but I think this whole "don't explain the roles even after they are dead" is bullshit. The wolves get to know if the sorceror is our doc or their godfather but the town doesn't? How exactly is this fair or fun for the town? What corresponding achilles heel did the mod give to the wolves to balance this? This is crap. The back up mod should clarify and fix this immediately.

Talitha

Talitha is the most consistently scummy looking person in the game to me.

My god the more I think about it, the scummier Talitha looks. Over and over again. Could you all go back and do a re-read of all of her suggestions before you hang Dragon on High please.

Her helpful suggestions in the game so far have been...

- lynch lurkers for the fun of the game
- lets all massclaim so the scum know who we are
- protect the vigilante instead of the cop.

Honestly.

Couple that with her being unsure of / evasive about her role and she looks mighty suspicious.

On the other side she has a

very

good point. Why would she claim something so close to Scruffs?

By the way - if there is a doc or bobbyplumb as nursemaid - don't necessarily protect me. N9V is a claimed cop. I see no reason to announce to the scum who will be protected this evening. I am more than happy to give my life for the town this evening. And I'm more than happy to live on tomorrow. So shhhhh!

-------------------------

Sorry if this seems like a lot of biting the hand that feeds me. I'm not done thinking this through. I got a lot of neutral reads from a lot of people because there is so much to go back and read. I'll have to keep at it.

Skruffs, I'm still shooting you in the face tonight. Be ready.

[cicero]

Hello again. I'm changing my mind. First, Pooky. It's cool. I can defend myself. Tali, please don't take my language as a personal attack. And try to be a little less defensive and aggressive when you respond. It makes you look like you have something to hide.

I haven't played mafia for long. Just a few months, it's true. But all I can do is call the shots as I see them and let the players defend themselves and others decide for themselves. Experience is great, but since anyone could theoretically be scum I can't really trust any one person's council. Sorry.

Nevertheless, I'm good in this way - I keep researching and learning. Quickly. In fact, I am changing my mind. At the moment, as distracting as Tali can be I'm lowering my scumdar against her AND changing my mind on the sorceror role!

Let me explain. First, I was of the opinion that the link that skruff sent was compelling in terms of roles. It is here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/67050

It wasn't the definition of sorceror alone that I was interested in, it was the fact that other claimed roles were mentioned. Most notably "hunter".

I've since done a bit more research though. Phoebus moderated Mafia XIX back in 2004. You can find it here:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

That game had similar roles to the ones being claimed here. Not the exact same of course. But it was using a standard werewolf template from Princeton which is available here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/oldmafia/rules.htm

You can scroll down to see the roles. Between these two links you can get an idea of the standard use of terms

by Phoebus

. Now I'm aware that everything might be totally different in this game, but I don't think it is probable that it is.

So, with caution thrown to the wind, I am going to suggest the following:

- N9V really is the seer.
- Talitha really is Wolvesbane.
- Fircoal was the Sorceror. Sadly he was our doctor. And is now dead.
- Niempie was a Wizard. He was an unafilliated member of the wolves whose job - -was to try to find the seer. He didn't know who the other wolves were.
- There is no Gong Farmer. Skruffs will die when I shoot him. He knows this.

I'll post more about others after I do more reading and thinking.

[cicero]

Full Claim List:

~N9V~- Cop
Pookie- Villager (Townie)
Talitha- Wolfsbane (can't be targeted by wolves?)
DragonsofSummer- Village Idiot (Pseudo-Jester)
Skruffs- Gong Farmer (can't be targeted for 1 night)
Bobby Plump- Sorceror's Assistant (Back up Doctor)
Quagmire- Tailor (target swapper)
Jordan- Mason (with BM)
Cicero - Hunter (vigilante)
Shanba - Butcher (basic townie)
Theo - Baker (basic townie)

Dead People:

Players dead: 5/17
Blackberry - Village Smith - Eaten - Night 1
Fircoal - Sorcerer - Banished - Day 1
Twito - Milliner - Shot - Night 2
TheAdmiral - Fletcher - Eaten - Night 2
Niempie - Wizard - Hanged - Day 2
Battle Mage - Sibling - Eaten and Shot - Night 3

[cicero]

Vote: DragonsofSummer

[cicero]

And yes. That was a hammer.

[cicero]

You want to lynch the back up doctor?

No one but Skruffs died during the night. What does that mean?

[cicero]

Don't lynch Quag. I'm shooting him tonight. He'll die. He's a bad guy. "target switching tailor" indeed. Lynching him is a waste of good rope.

[cicero]

I'm inclined to believe Pooky on the following grounds:

1. He called for DoS to be lynched and Skruffs to be shot. If he is scum that is one hell of a double bus. :S
2. He has an innocent claim.
3. There is no reason to doubt that innocent claim anymore. The alpha wolf is dead.
4. He clearly refused to play ball with the mass claim and I suspected him of having a power role at the time.
5. Bobby's claim of "ok I'm really the sorceror's apprentice after he called himself the nursemaid didn't sit well with me when he did it. I thought...hmm... what would I do if I was scum and could see me coming up with what Bobby did.

Vote bobbyplump

In passing, I want to say that N9V, I really wish you hadn't investigated Skruffs last night. That was a potentially very costly and foolish misstep. It was clear that Skruffs was going down, and I said explicitly that I was going to investigate his claim with my arrow. Now you want to lynch Quag instead of letting me do my job? Did a vigilante beat you as a child? What do you have against me?

[cicero]

You know, DoS and Skruffs were my top two suspects as well.

And yet you didn't vote for him yesterday...

[cicero]

QUIT VOTING QUAGMIRE OR TONIGHT I MAY SHOOT YOU INSTEAD

[cicero]

unvote

for now. Thinking. reading. don't want to park my vote.

Pooky - what is your role and flavor please.

Everyone - pretty please with sugar on top, let me shoot Quagmire. Focus on someone else. Every weird role has come up scummy. Quag will be no exception.

Unless you have a better idea for who needs a needle in the neck...

[cicero]

I'm an angel.

*flutters wings*

Really. Very interesting. I currently don't believe you.

[cicero]

I don't know, newbies can be smart about fakeclaims as well, or it might be a mod-given safeclaim. Either way, I'm not convinced he's town. He's certainly scummier than Pooky at any rate, and you've said you'd amazed if Pooky was scum.

They both seem scummy. The whole thing is driving me crazy. They are playing poorly.

Both suspected DoS and Skruffs.

Both lied during the mass claim.

Both have now claimed flavour that sounds full of crap. I came out yesterday and showed that the Sorceror was the Doc. Bobby came out and said "oh yeah. I'm really the Sorceror's Apprentice." Of course he didn't *need* to say anything. He could have shut his mouth and left the sorceror in doubt. Or just stuck with nursemaid. So everyone needs to decide what they think about his reasons for confirming my deduction of the sorceror role.

On the other side, Pooky has an innocent claim. Pooky did vote for DoS and was very comfortable with the idea that DoS, Skruffs and, at the time, Talitha were the scum. He never gave reasons. Now he says he is the Angel. But he also says he protected N9V since Night 2. Bobby Plump catches him and says "hey! N9V wasn't even a confirmed cop until day 3." Good point. But he also says he considers protecting himself. Sorcerors cannot protect themselves traditionally.

Here's the real kicker though. In this set up the Angel is a COP. The role that can protect others is the ARCHangel. It is a very powerful role because it can protect itself. It is normally the name used when there are mafia in the game but not when there are wolves.

http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/oldmafia/vr1.htm

Phoebus put an Angel in his last game. It was a cop. There was an Archangel and a Sorceror, of course, but there was also wolf AND mafia.

So here is the thing. I am not clear enough in my head to understand the implications of following Pookie. Let's say he's wrong. What are the implications. Let's say he's scum. What are the implications? What if he is a player like the serial killer who wants everyone dead?

Before we rush to vote my dumb noob ass needs some things spelled out for me.

Incidentally I didnt find Quagmire very scummy on a re-read either. Which doesn't mean I won't shoot him. But there is a lot to think about here.

[cicero]

Honestly, it's mindblowing to me that you could consider me even possibly to be werewolf after what I did yesterday in getting DoS and Skruffs killed.

Cicero, think about this for a second from my point of view if I was scum, why would I choose to toss 2 scum, one of them being my godfather under the bus at that point in the game?

It doesn't make any sense, thus I am not scum.

I understand you think that but step away from calling it mindblowing and answer some of the questions. I'm hardly aiming a vote at your throat. Go look at your role PM for me. What does it say? What is your explanation for protecting N9V on night 2? Pooky, I'm obviously newbie and stupid, so take us through this like I'm a 3 year old. Then I'll be satisfied and follow your council.

[cicero]

I'm an angel, I protect people by guarding them.

I confused the nights, I started protecting him on the night after he came out, I got the number mixed up and said 2 because I remembered him claiming out of the blue really early and thought he claimed it on day 1, in my defense, this was a really long time ago, like july and the game was lagging, so my memory is obviously faulty about that.

Overall I'm more inclined to believe your events. You voted for DoS. You suggested the Vig hit Skruffs. You protected the cop while making the wolves think it was the Vig who would get the protection. Phoebus didn't use back up roles in the other game. There are no kills that suggest a serial killer of lonewolf in the game and you are not playing for your own lynch as a jester. The cop, a doctor, and Vig are all alive today.

Sorry Bobby.

vote bobbyplump

[cicero]

@ Jordan...nothing ever said the Alpha Wolf is immune to investigations. Why couldn't there be another one that is?

Alpha Wolf is analogous to godfather. Normal use of the term. Check wikipedia. Look at Mafia XIX. Google "werewolf alpha wolf". Have fun.

[cicero]

Mod, I think I was voting Quag... But if not Vote Quag

I say Quag is the play today, cic, you can kill bobby tonight. I just want to make sure that Pooky isn't lying (which is becoming less believable by the moment)

I don't follow. How would Quagmire's lynch accomplish this?

[cicero]

Fine N9V is voting Quag. But Bobby is at lynch minus one. If he does get lynched, I'd like to know what N9V is going to do tonight. What will you do N9V?
And why do you keep talking about "cic". Do you mean Bobby?

[cicero]

That was fun.

We shouldn't forget how useful going back and digging up Phoebus's old game was. I strongly disagree with scenarios where town still doesn't know who the bad guys are after killing them. If I hadn't gone and found wolvesbane I would have been totally distracting even more pressing for a Talitha lynch. If people want to play in games like that, fine, but it should be made clear at the outset so that players can make an informed decision as to whether to play.

Anyway, thanks for a great (late) game and a great education everyone.

[cicero]

i dont know how the hell we achieved that, but great going guys!

Who the heck are you? O_o

[cicero]

Honest to god, pooky, I would have voted for DoS, but I said, "Can I hammer him?" asking if there's any further discussion for the day, but someone else beat me to the punch.

Haha. Sucka!!!

Actually in all seriousness, I have terrible scumdar. I didnt think you felt scummy at all when I read you. I thought Pookie and Talitha were scummy. The reason I got behind the wagon was because of your claims. The mass claim backed you all in to a corner and none of you knew how to respond to it. So really props to Talitha on that one.

I do sympathise with the scum in the sense that there seemed to be too many power roles in this game. But I'm new to this so I shouldn't be commenting on game balance at all really, except to say that without knowing more, it certainly feels like there was a town advantage. That having been said - you almost won. Until I found the precedential game, town was completely in the dark on whether they had even lynched any scum. Maybe that was Phoebus's (crappy) way of balancing an unbalanced game? I don't know. But scum did pretty well for a pretty long time as far as I can see.