Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Simenon]

Colin's lack of a Nivote is bizarre. This in itself is null, but I see a clear dichotomy in the arguments and favor a Colynch. Since, y'know, Niv came out without prompting on Day 1 and all.

I've made it clear that I'm leaning on some sort of miscommunication between Niv and I (Niv is a player who seems to be frequently miscommunicating) rather than Niv being scum. Why do you find this bizarre?

Either Niv lied or he didn't: Colin's mason-talking strategy is an irrelevant tangent.)

This shows you really haven't paid attention to the situation. This in itself is the center of the issue.

[Erg0]

Unvote

I need to re-read Niv and Sim's posts more closely.

[Simenon]

I certainly think it's illogical, but playstyle and his general behavior this game suggest to me ckillor is town.

What are the signs that ckillor is town despite his complete lack of logic? I do not know this player.

I pointed out one. But I think ckillor generally flails around and makes useless arguments more as town than scum. This is only from reading a couple games.

[Ether]

Niv: Hi, guys! Simenon is scum. I PMed him to call him out.

He picked up this PM

, so I know he saw it.
Colin: Um, I received no such PM.
Colin: By the way, I said some other stuff about how it's not optimal for masons to nighttalk. Another mason can confirm that I said that. No, for serious.

Am I missing something?

[Simenon]

Am I missing something?

Yeah, pretty much the entire bit on what Niv "called me out" on. He didn't just pm me saying "ur scum lol". In fact, to my knowledge, he didn't pm me at all, but that's what triggered this discussion.

[Simenon]

Eh, rethinking it, here is probably where the miscommunication lies:

I send Niv a pm saying that one of us may be scum and we shouldn't talk that much.
He sends me a pm (presumably the one I picked up) saying that he didn't need to be telling that.
He follows up with a pm saying something about outboxes and saying "point stands".

No where did he mention I was scummy for what I said, just that he didn't need to be reminded that one was possibly untrustworthy.

Now I would definately like Niv to clarify.

[Erg0]

Responded with this line about how he thought out of 5 of us, at least one of us is probally mafia. and all this warning that was stated in the opening pm. i personally think that i cought Simenon as scum in pregame, for clearly not knowing the townie mason pm. When i called him out on this, he didn't respond. and he had atleast 2 days (i think) to do so.

he picked up the pm and then said nothin.

Sime has now picked up his pms.

in the pm that wasn't picked up until now i ask him if he was not told that or if that he was the one that just wasn't trustworthy?

This what has me confused - Niv seems to contradict himself about whether Simenon has actually read the PMs from him (Niv) or not. I'd really really like this clarified by both parties.

[Erg0]

Simulpost, just need Niv to clarify now.

[Simenon]

I did read another pm earlier, but it said the exact same thing of another he sent, except with a question attatched. So I ignored it.

[ZONEACE]

Yeah, pretty much the entire bit on what Niv "called me out" on. He didn't just pm me saying "ur scum lol".

In fact, to my knowledge, he didn't pm me at all, but that's what triggered this discussion.

Eh, rethinking it, here is probably where the miscommunication lies:

I send Niv a pm saying that one of us may be scum and we shouldn't talk that much.

He sends me a pm (presumably the one I picked up) saying that he didn't need to be telling that.
He follows up with a pm saying something about outboxes and saying "point stands".

No where did he mention I was scummy for what I said, just that he didn't need to be reminded that one was possibly untrustworthy.

Bolding mine.


Umm So which is it, niv sent you a pm, or he didn't? You have in 2 seperate posts called niv a liar (indirectly) and not a liar but confused without ever stating you were correcting yourself. So Which is it? Is Niv a Liar or is he just confused?

[Flare]

so are you saying you'd like me to lie and make up a role so my claim is more convincing?

In that case, then I'm the doc guys and I can self protect so yeah, mafia, don't waste your time targeting me at night.


Is that better flare? a non-vanilla claim?

You do know that null means NO INDICATION OF ALIGNMENT, right?

Simenon is a better lynch than ZONEACE.

Reasons would be nice.

Scum:

ckillor (see above post)
Zoneace (typical scum day 1 meltdown under slight pressure)
Simenon (scum mason)

Choices, choices, so many choices.

vote: Simenon

Sim and Zoneace being scumbuddies makes 0 sense. It would until Zoneace voted him for him 'voting him even though he believed him', which actually makes zero sense for Simenon to be scum either, which he doesn't seem to get.

So, it just looks like you hopping on two easy wagons.

Colin's lack of a Nivote is bizarre. This in itself is null, but I see a clear dichotomy in the arguments and favor a Colynch. Since, y'know, Niv came out without prompting on Day 1 and all. I don't see scum motivation behind that. (I'd approve of outing another mason to clear up this mess, except that it wouldn't. Either Niv lied or he didn't: Colin's mason-talking strategy is an irrelevant tangent.)

So you think it's logical that he lynch his mason buddy? Just because their innocence is not guaranteed? You don't think that would be an omgus vote? You don't think that Niv is just a newbie that doesn't know what to do? Who didn't even notice that Sim didn't even pick up his PM til the other day, which would kind of make his first argument invalid if he didn't even look at the pm?

Just curious. It's kind of a false dillemma that one of them has to be scum.

I don't like Zorg's 133. I don't like Lemming's anything.

I would agree with this.

Bolding mine.


Umm So which is it, niv sent you a pm, or he didn't? You have in 2 seperate posts called niv a liar (indirectly) and not a liar but confused without ever stating you were correcting yourself. So Which is it? Is Niv a Liar or is he just confused?

Funny you focus on Simenon's contradiction but ignore Niv's completely.

Based on contradictions from boths sides, I think I'm also leaning on a miscommunication, but I'll be interested in a Niv post, as I find his more condemning thatn Sim's.

After Sim Responds to post 159, I'll elaborate.

[Niv]

Eh, rethinking it, here is probably where the miscommunication lies:

I send Niv a pm saying that one of us may be scum and we shouldn't talk that much.
He sends me a pm (presumably the one I picked up) saying that he didn't need to be telling that.
He follows up with a pm saying something about outboxes and saying "point stands".

No where did he mention I was scummy for what I said, just that he didn't need to be reminded that one was possibly untrustworthy.

Now I would definately like Niv to clarify.

My entire issue is not the fact that you sent the original message, but the fact you never responded to the question i askd you. even though i asked multiple times. the issuee here is whether or not the other masons were told whether or not we can be trusted. i figure that the fact that in my townie pm, i was told this. and i don't see any reason why he was not told this. and decided to warn me as well. my question went along the lines of:

(reworded)

do you know if you are trustworthy? (roundabout way of asking him if he is scum.) as i higly doubt that there are multiple townie mason pm's. i am still convinced that sime is scum.

For those who care, i sent 4 pms:

1st: Hi
2nd: calling him out w/ a question.
3rd: calling him out again b/c i went to my sent box, and thought i forgot to send it.
4th:appologising for sending 2 of the same message.

Lastly @ ergo

he had picked up 1st pm, 2nd pm.

then after i called him out he picked up the third and 4th

I hope this helps.

[Niv]

I did read another pm earlier, but it said the exact same thing of another he sent, except with a question attatched. So I ignored it.

EBWODP

QFT

so you admit ignoring my question?

[Carrotcake]

Zonace is acting like a child right now, but I dont think that works as a reason to vote him out. Aside from his breakdown, I cant see a clean reason to vote for him. Could somebody make it clean for me, as Im far too lazy to re-read the topic.

Im trying to weigh the mason topic-
I do not see a threat with revealing another mason to prove that the masonry does indeed exist. They have a killer with them, so they are not confirmed innocents. The mafia might not choose to harm them. They may or may not have powerroles so the mafia's target pool would not get smaller. Another mason might clear some things up for us, especially if they had contact with Niv and Simenon.

[Celtic18]

ZONEACE - "yeahi give up, if the town is gonna follow crap logic lik ethis I don't want to be part of the game..

I think Niv, Simeon and Lemming are all Scum, and it will be obvious after you lynch me.

I'm a basic townie, not in a mason group and with no power whatsoever, but go ahead and lynch me so i'll have to time to join a game that isn't full of people who quickly jump on logicless bandwagons. "

Sorry but i do not know how to multi-quote here at this site yet (Yes I am new to the site but not to mafia. Heard about you guys on Utopia Temple )

Anyways

Unvote Flameaxe

Thats was just a BW vote to get some info out into the open but since we have moved onto grander things now....

If this wasn't a desperate mafia ploy to get sympathy then HOW THE HELL HAVE YOU GOTTEN THROUGH GAMES BEFORE.

I mean come on wake up and stop acting like a baby. You can't act the way you did and then expect everyone to believe 100% that you are a townie. The fact that you asked to be replaced rather then sacrifice yourself in a pointless waste is your only saving grace....

Carrotcake - "Im trying to weigh the mason topic-
I do not see a threat with revealing another mason to prove that the masonry does indeed exist. They have a killer with them, so they are not confirmed innocents. The mafia might not choose to harm them. They may or may not have powerroles so the mafia's target pool would not get smaller. Another mason might clear some things up for us, especially if they had contact with Niv and Simenon."

1) They may not be confirmed innocents but I would believe then more then i would a vanilla townie who has been acting suspiciously.

2) BS. Of course the mafia will take them out. Assuming one of the masons is untrustworthy we can make the assumption that he is not mafia. Why? Because then the mafia would know who is in a 5 man mason group. They could easily kill two townie masons - leave 3 alive and town still wouldnt figure out who the scum was without possibly lynching two other townies. So this "untrustworthy" person is most likely a TCT or a Serial Killer or something along those lines.

3) The advantage of a mason group is that they can talk at night. This is a huge advantage to town as we have 5 people able to talk when scum arent and able to disucss the game in great detail. That in itself is a powerful role.

[Simenon]

My entire issue is not the fact that you sent the original message, but the fact you never responded to the question i askd you. even though i asked multiple times.

you never asked me a question in the pm I picked up at night

!

2nd: calling him out w/ a question.

However, I only read the third pm, and the third pm did not contain a message.

so you admit ignoring my question?

No, Niv. By then it was day. I just didn't bring it up in thread, because I thought I had already read an identical pm the night before, and it was impossible to give an answer. Only now do I read the distinction.

[Sir Tornado]

I think Niv, Simeon and Lemming are all Scum, and it will be obvious after you lynch me.

*sigh*

Why is everyone appealing to emotion in this game?

Explain how "it would be obvious that Niv, Simeon and Lemming are scum after we lynch you".

i think that Niv called out simenon to pull pressure off his scum buddy

Don't think that's the case, because:

1) This is not a mini. 4-5 votes is not actually a serious bandwagon when you require 12 to lynch, and I highly doubt whether we have put anyone under any sort of "pressure" yet.


2) I think it is highly unlikely that the untrustworthy mason is actually a part of a scum group. That would be insane as the entire mason group would be known to the scum.

Remember, that untrustworthy does not automatically equal scum. Sure, scum are untrustworthy, but they are not the only ones who are untrustworthy.

I'd like to hear more from MoS and KScope (and the rest of the lurkers whose names I am not going to look up right now)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sir Tornado, he was trying to quote ZONEACE. He wasn't trying to talk about himself getting lynched.

I see no reason to lynch ZONEACE, but Niv's point against Simenon seems more than enough reason to vote right now. Your turn, Flare.

[Flare]

You and Niv can talk during the day?

*sigh*

Why is everyone appealing to emotion in this game?

Explain how "it would be obvious that Niv, Simeon and Lemming are scum after we lynch you".

That was a quote. If you actually read his post you would know he doesn't know how to quote yet.

Btw Celtic quote tags are such

Quote="X" in brackets, where X is the player. Close them with /quote in brackets as well.

so if you were quoting me saying hi it would be

quote="Flare"hi/quote

with the quote="" and /quote encased in []

Sir Tornado, he was trying to quote ZONEACE. He wasn't trying to talk about himself getting lynched.

I see no reason to lynch ZONEACE, but Niv's point against Simenon seems more than enough reason to vote right now. Your turn, Flare.

Actually Niv thinks simenon is scum off of a hunch, because Sim didn't seem to answer to one of his pms, and because innocence is not guaranteed.

Now, why do you think that Simenon is scummier than Niv, when they both have contradictions in their statements? At the moment I would say it's much more likely it's an error in communication than one of them being scum until some more information comes out.

So if I'm not going to vote either of them, I'm going to look at other candidates, and I believe that Zoneace is a very nice one, for reasons I've outlined and I'm sure you can see.

This isn't a case of "I think they're scummy, but we should save them for later" this is a case of "Their claims are up in the air, and it's just not smart to do lynch them this early in the game". Do you disagree?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I do disagree. I'm going to continue to put pressure on Simenon until this claim thing is resolved. And no, I'm sure I can't see why ZONEACE is a very nice candidate. Why don't you repeat it for me?

[Flare]

i have been debating back and forth about tdoing this in my mind, and i think it is in the wowns best intrests to do this.

I am part of a 5 man mason team. and i was told from the begining that there there is at least one scum among us. i think i know who it is.

i sent out a nice high to everyone. and three people responded back with a nice high as well, however,

Simenon,

Responded with this line about how he thought out of 5 of us, at least one of us is probally mafia. and all this warning that was stated in the opening pm. i personally think that i cought Simenon as scum in pregame, for clearly not knowing the townie mason pm. When i called him out on this, he didn't respond. and he had atleast 2 days (i think) to do so. he picked up the pm and then said nothin.

there was reason for my vote on this man. and it is going to stand, as i think this is the best lead we're gonna get in no night 0 day one.

This is why Niv thinks simenon is scum. He thinks he's outgeuessing the mod, but it sounds like Niv outed the mason deal because Simenon was enforcing a warning, and making sure they understood they weren't town just cause they could talk to them.

I personally find this pretty faulty and not very relevant.

Two reasons. Niv says it's in the OP in thread, but the mason pm about confirmed innocence is NOT in thread. How would he know about that without the PM?

Secondly, why are you so confident that Patrick mod wouldn't send him a mason pm as well, as that seems kind of unfair to scum masons, if there is even a scum mason.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Simenon (6) -- Niv, Carrotcake, Mastermind of Sin, ZONEACE, Toaster Strudel, Ether
Celtic18 (1) -- The Venerable Zorg
Niv (1) -- ckillor
hmrox (1) -- The Fonz
Lemming1607 (2) -- Beastly, hmrox
ZONEACE (5) -- Simenon, Flare, Yamahako, Lemming1607, KaleiÐoscøpe

Not Voting: Sir Tornado, Aimee, Zeppo, Flameaxe, Erg0, Celtic18
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Flare]

1.Claiming he believed Simenon yet FoSing him.
2.Omgus voting Simenon, when claiming he believes him
3.Giving up
4.Appeals to emotion while doing so
5.Refusing to answer the arguments against him by either A.Just saying it's bad logic or B.Distracts from his case by calling the town stupid for not voting two players who are contesting each other's 'lies'
6.Prematurely claiming with around 5 votes on him when it's 12 to lynch, which signifies overdefensiveness on his part.

[Sir Tornado]

*sigh*

Why is everyone appealing to emotion in this game?

Explain how "it would be obvious that Niv, Simeon and Lemming are scum after we lynch you".

That was a quote. If you actually read his post you would know he doesn't know how to quote yet.

Btw Celtic quote tags are such

Quote="X" in brackets, where X is the player. Close them with /quote in brackets as well.

so if you were quoting me saying hi it would be

quote="Flare"hi/quote

with the quote="" and /quote encased in []

Ah, um... sorry, my bad

In that case, direct that question to Zoneace: How are Niv, Simenon and Lemming "obviously" scum if we lynch you and you turn up town?

[Sir Tornado]

Secondly, why are you so confident that Patrick mod wouldn't send him a mason pm as well, as that seems kind of unfair to scum masons, if there is even a scum mason.

If there is an untrustworthy mason, he would, I think, be told that other masons are told about the untrustworthiness in their PMs, but he would, IMO not actually get the town-mason PM. I think that is the most probable scenario. Which means, of course, that the masons can decide, after a few days, of discussion as to who the scummiest is among them, and ask that person to quote the mason PM to them during their night time talk. (I think that should be allowed as per the rules)