Open 623 (White Flag) - A Moment in Time (Over)

[AlwaysInnocent]

1. If you're paranoid it means your townread on someone is too strong. By calling me paranoid AI is implying that I am townreading him but for some reason don't feel good about that townread.

Uh. That is not what paranoia is.

2. There's agreeing, and there's trying to get someone to like you. I am most certainly not "obvious town". Also the post AI purported to agree with contained an allegation that AI was scummy. (Pedit: you never gave the original reason for townreading me. Something must have started the circular logic.)

I am not saying that to get you to "like" me. I did give reasons for townreading you. However, even if I didn't give them, it would still not necessarily be circular logic.

6. Okay, let me rephrase that. Sharing your reads without explaining them does nothing to help town.

You do realize this is D1, right? I am not sure, but the deadline probably is still a week away, right? So let me try this. (I do explain them to some extent, though.)

[Extrapolated Eagle]

you're wrong and I think you know it on all these points. So you can disagree with me and I can go more in depth about how and why you're wrong and we can waste more time on the subject matter or you can stop making up vs arguments and start playing the game. A good way to find scum is to look at their posts. How often they post. What is their motivation behind posting? Scum know what they're doing. And goal number one is to NOT stand out. They want to blend in. A few outliers I have seen have included scum that intentionally ttunneled one person all game long and that was their excuse for not participating in discussion, this is relatively popular because it's easy to tell. There's the scum that have to be on the front lines that try to stand out but they have to do so too aggressively and end up in weird stances making up bs cases. This is some of the strangest scum to catch. There's the scum that literally just lurks all game. But most often scum are in the middle. Dittoing what some people say. Making a comment on this , a comment on that. Trying to look sane and relatable. Trying not to react if possible.

Most often the people on the front lines fighting for reads are town. They make "scummy" mistakes to get reads out of people. They're too paranoid sometimes and overly confident at others.

So you want to find scum motivation? Look at the lurkers. Look at their posts. Hard. Look at the people who you didn't have an immediate read on and are somewhere in the null. Look at the people who everyone says "eh, probably town, they contribute a bit" and then just kind of ignore.

Go to those people's posts. Read them. What are those posts trying to accomplish? Scum often have a purpose in mind. Somewhere they're headed. Does he post make a point you haven't noticed before that sets you in a new direction when reading someone? They're maybe town. But be careful of manipulation here. Does the post seem to just joke around? How often does the person seem to just kind of repeat what someone else said or follow someone else? How often are their comments helpful, or move the thread forward? Those are probably scum. Are they not really engaging people? Maybe scum unless they've stated their purpose in doing so.

THESE are the things you should look for when looking for scum. AI is my strongest town read at the moment.

1. They take strong stances that are scary or will get them maybe killed day 2 as scum, LIKE reading you as strong town.

2. They are not afraid to stand out at all and called multiple people scum in a row in an attempt to put pieces together.

3. They are reaction testing and trying to figure out who is scum, trying to separate the scum from the town.

4. They have NOT yet shared their reasons and I imagine in part because they're trying out the team and watching people for reactions- strong reactions for or against, and weak ones. The weak reactions are often the ones from scum.

5. They're town reading you. I would be too if I didn't think you'd slipped at the beginning of the day, until this most recent post of yours.

Anyways, I wrote much more than I intend to but poor play puts me off and I like to try to correct it when I can. (Yes. I'm aware my play isn't the best either, but... I guess I like explaining things?)

I may not have explained well enough, but if you still think you're right about ai being scum you can restate your reasons (make sure you're certain of them) and I'll show you why you're wrong.)

[TheCow]

I'm either going to bed or catching up. I haven't decided yet.

[Something_Smart]

EE those are some really good points. There's just a few things I'd like to mention.
1. AI is a very smart player and he probably knew most of what you said before the game. To me his posts have not shown a ton of town motivation per se, although I agree with you that the playstyle is not a normal scum one. But I think AI is capable of intentionally playing like this as scum. WIFOM ensues.
2. If finding scum is about reactions and trying to blend in, then why are you scumreading me for a slip that was not a slip when I don't fit your scum criteria?

[SirCakez]

My read on AI is waffling a bit. EE raises some good points about him.

[Yonom]

I gotta agree with Extrapolated Eagle. All the things SS mentioned on the last page are indeed odd, but I just can't see where AI would be going with them. I don't see a lot of town motivation, but I also see no scum motivation.

It's true that AI could be mafia, but I have no reason to believe they are more likely to be scum than anyone else in this game.

Also I have to say it really sucks that we have so many inactive players this game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Thanks for for ruining it, Eagle.

[SirCakez]

What?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Eagle is scum, maybe.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

EE those are some really good points. There's just a few things I'd like to mention.
1. AI is a very smart player and he probably knew most of what you said before the game. To me his posts have not shown a ton of town motivation per se, although I agree with you that the playstyle is not a normal scum one. But I think AI is capable of intentionally playing like this as scum. WIFOM ensues.
2. If finding scum is about reactions and trying to blend in, then why are you scumreading me for a slip that was not a slip when I don't fit your scum criteria?

1. You're right. A lot of finding scum is WIFOM. However a lot of it is understanding optimal and suboptimal play as scum. In a normal game you could maybe make the argument that he is simply playing an incredibly town game for self-pres purposes and I have seen scum do this. It is a sort of gambity play that puts everything on the line of you being town read, but the big problem here is that he only really secures his slot. In playing this way, a way in which he only tries to make himself town read he risks the lives of his buddies on the assumption that he can make it to the final three and will be town read there. The problem with this play, however, is that this is a white flag game in which if his buddies get killed off he loses, and thus this gambit is all risk and literally no reward.

2. You do fit scum criteria, in a way, if you take into account that you are newbscum. There are players that aren't particularly good at playing scum or aren't particularly sure what to do so they just play like they can. I am one of these players. But that is beside the point. Your posts show... Somewhat town motivation in your paranoia and direct OMGUS, but these feelings are the ones easiest to fake as scum, and this is actually what my newb scum looked like in my first games. I would not be scum reading you, however, had not your post earlier showed that your fear didn't seem to be particularly based in not knowing who everyone was. I guess this is a sign, however, that I should change my criteria for newbtown since it seems my newtown and newscum overlap a bit. It can be hard with newbies since their play will rarely be anywhere near optimal.

PEdit: not scum, but I knew you would say I might be when I town read you. I guess I think I've been where you are before? Townread by scum. I was super suspicious then, and I hated that, it felt like everyone was my enemy. Perhaps you enjoy it a bit more. I'm kinda sorry not sorry for ruining it though. It's ... A bad habit. I like explaining things like I said earlier. :/

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well, since you like explaining things, you can be my spokesperson. I just do what I want and you provide the reasons for my actions. If you are town, of course.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Well, since you like explaining things, you can be my spokesperson. I just do what I want and you provide the reasons for my actions. If you are town, of course.

If you're being sarcastic I'm sorry.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Never mind. That's probably not sarcasm.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I thought it was funny. No, but it has a serious undertone: at some point I will have to explain myself, that is true. If other people start explaining why I did things when I don't, then that is a bit of a weird situation.

[Something_Smart]

There it is... the word "paranoid" again (in 459). Ugh. It gives me the chills.
Here's why:

So now Tojam is confirmed scum, otherwise makesnosense or Kerkorrel would have hammered.
Kerkorrel, it's good to be paranoid, but the more we talk today, the more info the scum will have for who to kill.
And Drixx, I don't think Kerkorrel should post his reads; all that does is give the scum more possibilities to throw us off with a WIFOM kill. I think we already have enough information to lynch correctly tomorrow.

This from my scumgame, taken from 5-player LYLO, immediately before

Kerkorrel

hammered

tojam2

, after considering a potential scumteam of

Something_Smart

and

Drixx

.
I was proud of my use of "paranoid" to subtly imply that Kerkorrel's suspicion of me was unreasonable. Paranoid means more afraid of something than you should be; to say that I am paranoid about AI implies that I should not be afraid of him, and therefore that I should townread him. This is precisely the type of manipulation that scum will try.
However, I am convinced enough by your argument to put AI at null again.
And since I really don't like SirCakez's response to your case (and I haven't liked him all game),
VOTE: SirCakez

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I thought it was funny. No, but it has a serious undertone: at some point I will have to explain myself, that is true. If other people start explaining why I did things when I don't, then that is a bit of a weird situation.

Understood. Take this one as me explaining my town read on you then.

@ss yes but anyone (should see) can see that's pretty poor logic there accompanying it.

[SirCakez]

What don't you like about my resppnse? I thought the case made sense. (I assume you're referring to EE's case for AI being town.)

[Extrapolated Eagle]

He's scum, cakez. And he needs someone other than him to push. I'd imagine that's part of why.

[droog]

ss
what are some other scumreads of yours

[PhantomCobalt]

Catching up.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

There it is... the word "paranoid" again (in 459). Ugh. It gives me the chills.
Here's why:

So now Tojam is confirmed scum, otherwise makesnosense or Kerkorrel would have hammered.
Kerkorrel, it's good to be paranoid, but the more we talk today, the more info the scum will have for who to kill.
And Drixx, I don't think Kerkorrel should post his reads; all that does is give the scum more possibilities to throw us off with a WIFOM kill. I think we already have enough information to lynch correctly tomorrow.

This from my scumgame, taken from 5-player LYLO, immediately before

Kerkorrel

hammered

tojam2

, after considering a potential scumteam of

Something_Smart

and

Drixx

.
I was proud of my use of "paranoid" to subtly imply that Kerkorrel's suspicion of me was unreasonable. Paranoid means more afraid of something than you should be; to say that I am paranoid about AI implies that I should not be afraid of him, and therefore that I should townread him. This is precisely the type of manipulation that scum will try.
However, I am convinced enough by your argument to put AI at null again.
And since I really don't like SirCakez's response to your case (and I haven't liked him all game),
VOTE: SirCakez

I am more than willing to discuss the very poor logic in this post and the post you quoted post game with you if you'd like, but since you're scum right now I doubt I would get very far with it. The important part for now is that simply using the word paranoid in a sentence somewhere where you were scum has nothing to do with the implications of the word itself nor the alignment of people when they seem paranoid.

However I will add that I am grateful to you for quoting this post because I have noticed you use poor logic previously and I was wondering if you knew what the correct logic is and you were simply a newb or if you were intentionally using bad logic to try to manipulate other people. Sharing this post makes me more certain you are scum, I would say this is your second major slip this game.

@everyone else, I'm good with lynching ss when anyone/everyone else is. Let's get this day over with, he's scumslipped twice now.

[droog]

theres a slip?
the part i dont like is how his reads
havent moved any since daystart
cake is still his strongest scumread

[TheCow]

Needless to say, I went to bed. Color coding reads really boils my goose -- whatever that means.

[Something_Smart]

uh yeah, I know what correct logic is
the post quoted is scumlogic
I used it because I was scum. My point is that the logic of several players reminds me of it.
However, I do understand if you don't know the correct usage of "paranoid". But that is what it means.
And droog why are you saying my reads haven't moved? I have twelve players to read, the fact that one read has not changed is hardly proof.
And as proof of the opposite, watch this: my townread on EE is gone. It is likely soon to be replaced with a scumread.

[SirCakez]

Why has it gone away?