SAGA FRONTIER MAFIA (GAME END)

[DiamondSentinel]

Hmm, lemmie just grab this pagetop.

Anyways, meh, you evidently won't see reason. Albert is a terrible choice for MC, but looks like I've got to build a counter-wagon from the ground up, essentially.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Diamond, who do you suggest besides Drixx?
Earlier I said it wasn't good to decide on his alignment because he started as MC, but with the info that killing a freshly voted MC brings the role back to the old one makes it even more likely that he isn't scum. I'm not sure Drixx is the best choice for a town leader, per de, but the way he's going about things seems very transparent and honest and I don't see him being scum.

It'd be better if we had an MC we were sure was town. We can still talk about the party in this thread.

ABR calling Sentinel very town and then not putting him in the list.. I mean he hasn't said he doesn't trust his reads, but he

is

putting in his party almost entirely based on public opinion.

The party is a private chat that grants abilities. Shouldnt keeping scum out be more important than selecting players who won't have disagreements, orm.. Whatever else? All this party is going to work together on is discussion and voting for where to adventure to.

MC: Drixx

I don't like Gales decision of placeholder votes.. Just vote based on what the first player who talks to you tells you, as a placeholder? If you say those votes can always be changed, why do you even need to make them now?

Rylai and Lina, it doesn't look to me like Skybird is purposely lying about her role, there was just anlot of talk and confusion but I'm pretty sure if she were intending to hide things then she would have done so. I don't think it's a good reason to vote her.
As for ABRs accusation of a lack of towny suspicion.. Honestly, I can see where this is coming from. Usually town is suspicious, but there are exceptions, such as when someone is unsure. More importantly is that usually Skybird is suspicious. I usually see her with theories and worries about scum, but I'm not seeing that here.

Wicked last readslist had everyone as null to town. Was there discussion about that?

Skybird: In SU, I told you that I wasn't male, not that I was female. But, I do appreciate you using the pronouns you thought were correct. <3 My pronouns are under my avatar, but I don't usually bother with corrections. I was just curious where the 'she' was coming from, haha.

There's a problem with the 'wait and see' approach to ABR and it also relates to our new info. If, day 3, he hangs himself with the rope we've given him... What next? We can't lynch him, can likely not nightkill him since he's picked the teams. Even if he says he only wants MC once, once he has it, he can keep it, hell he could probably reveal himself as scum and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Anyone else elected would just die before he lost the MC.

So, those who are saying waiting is fine, what do you propose we do once we can't kill him anymore?

[DiamondSentinel]

@Maxwell Well, that's the problem. There aren't many that I read as town enough. I guess Rylai, but nobody else would support then. Klingon or Errant I'm good with.

I also rescind my first post. I have a party that I'm confident in, so if for any reason someone supports me (which they don't seem to), I'd be open to it now.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I don't really understand the Klingon townread. Is it meta, or does it have something to do with Titus' read of her, or something else?

What is this party?

I'd like to chat, but I have to get to class now. I'll be on late tonight.

[Errantparabola]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p7555311]
*thumbs up*

{*points at Drixx, Lowkey, Albert B. Rampage*}
{*points at CooLDoG, Yosarian2*}
{*points at The Cool Cucumbers*}
{*points at DrippingGoofball, Rylai and Lina, Drunken Pirates*}

*thumbs sideways* {*points at Fluminator, MaxwellPuckett*}

{*points at Yimmy, DiamondSentinel*}
{*points at Wickedestjr, Klingoncelt, Sensei, ZZZX*}
(*points at Skybird*}
{*points at ArcAngel9*}

*thumbs down*[/quote]

*shrugs*

*thumbs up*

{*Drixx, Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage*}
{*CoolDoG, Drunken Pirates, Lowkey*}
{*The Cool Cucumbers*}
{*DrippingGoofball, Sensei, Rylai and Lina*}

*thumbs sideways* {*Fluminator*}
{*ZZZX, MaxwellPuckett, DiamondSentinel, Klingoncelt, itlepip*}

{*Skybird*}
{*Wickedestjr, Gale wing Srock*}

*thumbs down*

VOTE: Wickedestjr

[Errantparabola]

*thumbs up*

{*points at Drixx, Lowkey, Albert B. Rampage*}
{*points at CooLDoG, Yosarian2*}
{*points at The Cool Cucumbers*}
{*points at DrippingGoofball, Rylai and Lina, Drunken Pirates*}

*thumbs sideways* {*points at Fluminator, MaxwellPuckett*}

{*points at Yimmy, DiamondSentinel*}
{*points at Wickedestjr, Klingoncelt, Sensei, ZZZX*}
(*points at Skybird*}
{*points at ArcAngel9*}

*thumbs down*

*shrugs*

*thumbs up*

{*Drixx, Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage*}
{*CoolDoG, Drunken Pirates, Lowkey*}
{*The Cool Cucumbers*}
{*DrippingGoofball, Sensei, Rylai and Lina*}

*thumbs sideways* {*Fluminator*}
{*ZZZX, MaxwellPuckett, DiamondSentinel, Klingoncelt, itlepip*}

{*Skybird*}
{*Wickedestjr, Gale wing Srock*}

*thumbs down*

VOTE: Wickedestjr[/quote]

[Albert B. Rampage]

You think Skybird is scum. Vote with us, don't go off on your own.

[Drunken Pirates]

I actually think his response to you suggesting he remove cooldog was to state he didn't need anyone in the party, and then some more talk happened, and you upped your demands to removal of yosarian AND cooldog, and that was the point at which he removed you. I get that Cooldog has always been in his parties(apparently, I'd check, but fuck it, whatever), but why couldn't it be yosarian who he needs, if you're right?

I think Mollie can answer that, btw, I'm sure me talking to you and provoking you to keep answering is driving her crazy.

-Cerb

sure mebbe he needs yoyo and kewldog is a patsy.

you are somehow missing my point entirely.

do you have a townread on kewldog:

[] yes
[] no

if so why? if he is null for you why are you not pausing to ask "why does abr want kewldog in the party so bad to the exclusion of including more universally read townreads?" <----- it makes no sense and that is what is baking my noodle right now. it reeks of a hidden agenda.

I think some scum need to be sparked to activate certain abilities, so scum wld try to maneuver their teammates into the chosen party. <------- how are pple not getting this. why on earth as town wld you be okay with having scum in the party where they cld unlock more abilities like holy cow.

ugh. this happens every time in a complicated set up, pple stop playing mafia and focus on mechanics and town nearly always lose and titus and I are frustrated but there is only so much we can do. pple will have to draw and reach their own conclusions that way they can truly believe in them. we are trying to provide extra info for food for thought and i am a bit confused at the opposition.

we can get on board with a drixx mc I think? we are going by his play. titus said she asked varsoona early on if the role was randomized (I am paraphrasing here) and he said yes.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Scum:

Max
Klingon
Skybird

We need to concentrate our votes and take em out.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

I didn't miss your point. You never asked me a question. you were making points about ABR...so I don't know why the cooldog question was suddenly intended to be directed at us.

I have no answer on cooldog, because I'm not gonna iso him until my break at the earliest, if I do iso him, and I just know nothing he's done has been significant enough that an instant opinion forms in my mind with regards to anything he's done.

I'm quite alright with a Drixx MC for tomorrow.

-Cerb

[DiamondSentinel]

I don't really understand the Klingon townread. Is it meta, or does it have something to do with Titus' read of her, or something else?

What is this party?

I'd like to chat, but I have to get to class now. I'll be on late tonight.

Klingon townread is difficult to explain. But I have for sure not seen anything on her that screams scum. I'll try to find some quotes in the iso to explain it, but I don't know if I can.

As for the party, it's Drixx, Errant, Rylai/Klingon, and then one of my null-reads.

Rylai and Klingon I'd be interested in chatting with them about some other people in relative sanctuary and then I want to try and cement a read in place of a null read. If the reward were to go to one person, I'd give it to Drixx or Errant.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Starting my posts on everyone:

DiamondSentinel - Leaning Scum

So I didn't have much to say about DS' opening play besides thinking that his post 18 seemed a little off with his "Don't die nastily" and "I'll just end picking a team of all scum so don't choose me as MC", however it's nothing worth assigning alignment to. His mention of Titus is also a little odd and if Pirates ever flips scum we should look back at the interactions here. It improves a little starting with post 32; speculation about whether something is more likely to come from town or scum is a good town minded thing. Sadly it was setup-spec which weakens this all considerably. His anti-lurker thing in 80 is also another small weak tell that points towards being town. All in all, ignoring the weird Titus buddying, his early game play seems to lean slightly towards town. Another thing I have pondered but probably shouldn't be is the fact that Varsoon responded in the manner he did in post 113, here varsoon tells him not to give flavour any alignment indicative worth as he provides fake-claims.
His vote on Flum in 213 is a bit meh seeing how others were also just randomly piling on, could be seen as opportunism. Especially seeing how he only justifies it as a gut read. What does however ease my worry here is the fact that I too was suspicious of Flum at this time as you will read and Cerb has mentioned here and there. 245 just downright confuses me, why he isn't using his vote to push and the fact he doesn't vote someone he knows won't get lynched baffles me. The worst past is that his recent posts indicate he is willing to start a counter-wagon "from scratch" when it is obvious thats unlikely to catch on. Honestly don't know what to make of it besides that it is weird. Could be used as an associative tell later on possibly though. His explanation in 248 really doesn't make it any clearer. It also gets worse, in post 271 he states suspicion of Skybird for voting flum with weak reasoning... while he had been "gut" voting flum a few posts back and only just miraculously went from "hating" Flum's posts with a passion to ???? because the wagon is "wrong". Don't like it, thus assigning it scum points. He's even still scum reading flum for goodness sake, what's wrong with his voting skills?
Thank goodness 292 sheds light on the situation. He thinks Flum is scum but the wagon on him if lead to a lynch will likely end with Flum's flipping town. What, I don't even. And yes he is scum reading flum as stated in the later post 313. Also why does he need someone to back him up as town, let alone a "fall back" he isn't even town reading yet? (314 and 324)
Later posts start looking a bit better, post 552 being an example of a kind of odd post with some town like logic in it. He by the way wants "Flum lynched with fire" in 563 despite the wagon on him being "wrong" and flum likely flipping town because of the "wrong wagon" so that's why he's not voting the person he wants lynched with fire (which he still only calls a gut read for some reason). I completely fail to comprehend his reasoning and actions around flum. The cherry on the top is he goes back to voting him in 576, may I ask DS?
How has his wagon become less "wrong" since you unvoted him?
It doesn't help but ping me as scum trying to escape the slack he was getting for his unvote.

When he finally does give some reasoning for his votes in 684 they are a bit meh, most of them are copied from others and he makes the glorious mistake of not providing evidence to back his claims. I flipping hate when people do that, if we could make it meta that quotes or whatever have to be used when making claims about whatever it would do the town good. I also disagree with his final claim, Flum looks like he doesn't give a crumpets he is getting wagoned and is just becoming annoyed because of it. I really don't see any worry or fear coming from that slot despite DS' statement.
Post 771 also doesn't sit well with me. It's just completely blerg and is worse knowing the fact that R&L was becoming a more globally scum read player around this point. He also dumps another lump of awfulness onto his flum shenanigans when he unvotes in his next post (773) because he "doesn't want an accidental wagon forming" on the play he "wants to lynch with fire". Why is nobody else pushing him for this right now?
You know why this is also opportunistic? Others were also moving of flum around that point!
Why he also 360°'d on his R&L read is also beyond me and I would be more than happy with an explanation for that. Post 786 for the record. He makes some townier posts around here but they are kind of over shadowed by his others. I mean, nobody goes from scum reading someone almost certainly to seeing them as certain town in the space of 5 posts. Or am I mad?

I also don't like how in his further posts he just kind of picks at ABR without really explaining why... him buddying with Titus while doing so doesn't really help. Though the fact he is pushing an unpopular wagon does make me wonder, if he can explain his actions I mentioned earlier so I can see how they could come from town I may be swayed in this point.

@ABR, what makes you town read DS?

1014 he does something that I see scum do a lot. "why me and not x" is something I see way to much as a defense from scum.

This quote from 1316 is another thing that caught my eye: "
You happy now Albert? I'm not voting you. Also, looks like I ought to help you on that MC wagon. MC: Albert, I suppose"
DS just seems to want to appease those the don't go for him and flips seemingly too easily on his reads. I could go on but the essence of his posts is that they don't seem right, there are some that I could assign town motivation to however there are more that look like they come from scum. I wouldn't go as far to say that DS is scum however hes certainly in my scum pool right now, interaction with him should clarify his alignment hopefully.

Now for Klingoncelt

[DiamondSentinel]

Sorry Cerberus-hydra, but you won't get good reasoning for me. I'm not too good at explaining my thoughts and its moon logic even to me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

DS gives me the distinct impression of working alone. Scum usually take sides, sheep, back strong town players, basically doing what Max is doing. That's why I think DS is town. His opposition to me is irrelevent to his alignment, same goes for Titus.

[DiamondSentinel]

As for Rylai, as soon as I found out that Shiro was in that hydra, I completely understood the interactions this game. Shiro in her town games I've seen seems to be a VI/Tragic Hero. Pretty sharp, but never ends up getting anything to work because nobody believes her. Basically like me except actually knows what she's doing.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Oh shit. wgeurts has showed up. I'm going to go away and let him make a buncha posts because that's probably what he's gonna do.

wgeurts, hit me up in the pt after you post all yo shiz and I read it all.

-Cerb

[The Cool Cucumbers]

At least try to explain what was going on in your head around then in that case. I've seen some moon logic and although I may not agree with how you go to work if you are town I need to know what you are thinking and why.
~wgeurts

[Albert B. Rampage]

DS just strikes me as very confused. I want him in the fold, not in the wild, if that makes sense. The choice is his.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Oh shit. wgeurts has showed up. I'm going to go away and let him make a buncha posts because that's probably what he's gonna do.

wgeurts, hit me up in the pt after you post all yo shiz and I read it all.

-Cerb

This will be an ongoing thing, I'm going to eat now and answer any stuff that arises when done.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

DS gives me the distinct impression of working alone. Scum usually take sides, sheep, back strong town players, basically doing what Max is doing. That's why I think DS is town. His opposition to me is irrelevent to his alignment, same goes for Titus.

Okay, I can see what you are saying. However wouldn't you say the flum push doesn't seem like this as well as the way he's interacting with Titus?

[The Cool Cucumbers]

As for Rylai, as soon as I found out that Shiro was in that hydra, I completely understood the interactions this game. Shiro in her town games I've seen seems to be a VI/Tragic Hero. Pretty sharp, but never ends up getting anything to work because nobody believes her. Basically like me except actually knows what she's doing.

What would make you scum read shiro?
Also the posts you disliked were made by FA I believe, what's your opinion of this side of the hydra?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I see what you're saying. I'm afraid he's very confused :/

[The Cool Cucumbers]

DS just strikes me as very confused. I want him in the fold, not in the wild, if that makes sense. The choice is his.

Fair enough

I'm not looking to lynch him anytime soon as I prefer to go after those I'm more confident about. Like Maxwell.

[Drunken Pirates]

I didn't miss your point. You never asked me a question. you were making points about ABR...so I don't know why the cooldog question was suddenly intended to be directed at us.

I have no answer on cooldog, because I'm not gonna iso him until my break at the earliest, if I do iso him, and I just know nothing he's done has been significant enough that an instant opinion forms in my mind with regards to anything he's done.

I'm quite alright with a Drixx MC for tomorrow.

-Cerb

cerb my point about abr is about kewldog. it is a weird solid townread to have when:

1. he is a dgb fan and has expressed zero suspicion dgb he nommed her for the mc originally which if he was OMG I AM GONNA DIE IF I AM NOT VOTED AS MC and that is the very definition of cog-dis.
2. okay so now that you realize that you have no read on kewldog but abr is insistent that he is in the party will you plz think about that? iso kewldog and THINK ABOUT IT.
3. do you wanna vote drixx? I kinda wanna vote drixx for mc. I don't want abr to go through.

[The Cool Cucumbers]

Anyway off to eat home made burgers