Mini 1755: Game Over

[AxleGreaser]

Please explain your Ircher read?

Ircher is just being Ircher. Trust me on this.

You could also explain your scum read on Pisskop. Please and thank you.

Why? You are scum too. No need to explain anything to scum.

In the first post you appeared to forget I was scum as you want me to trust you on this.
but if i am as surely scum as you say in your second post, what would trusting you have to do with anything?

huh?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Based on your read list I feel like you were infact serious. Show me why AxleGreaser/pisskop are "scum".

Why are you not asking about yourself? Is this because you know you are scum?

I already know why you're voting for me based on your leading/unsupported post:

I'm voting for Pisskop atm.

This means you think AxleGreaser and I are scum-partners.

Possibly. It is suspicious to say the least. Especially Axle's question is just weird.

Plus, I do not feel like I need to announce to the thread that I am town:

{AlwaysInnocent}

I'll let my scum-hunting do that for me

You know why I have included myself? As a reference point. It makes it immediately clear what the ordering is (in addition to the colors).

The problem is, so far you are spamming many empty accusations, but add no substance to them.

Sure, I wish they had more substance, but that's no reason not to get the game going. Throwing mud right away is the best way to figure out town and scum.

Thus, people are challenging you, but your best defence is "We're like brothers", "No need to explain anything to scum", "Trust me on this." -

this is not productive

.

I'd prefer if you explained your posts/reads

. Yes, you could be testing for reactions, but it is so obvious it has become redundant/futile

I'm getting something out of it, though. Even when people are aware that I'm doing it, there is still information.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Please explain your Ircher read?

Ircher is just being Ircher. Trust me on this.

You could also explain your scum read on Pisskop. Please and thank you.

Why? You are scum too. No need to explain anything to scum.

In the first post you appeared to forget I was scum as you want me to trust you on this.
but if i am as surely scum as you say in your second post, what would trusting you have to do with anything?

huh?

Geez, I don't know. Maybe because I take into account that there is a possibility that you are town? Perhaps I'm talking to the other players, too?

But if you think I shouldn't consider you town, then that's fine, too.

[Keyser Söze]

We're like brothers

. This is how I know he is scum.

I feel like sheeping this.

Spoiler:

Actually.

No. No matter how many times you may beat that post like a troll, if you don't add the meat to your accusations/reads you will be considered a joke. i.e if you create apathy/spam/irritation people are going to get angry or shut off. I think anger is hard to read as alignment indicative. If someone is ignoring you completely, that defeats the objective of getting interactions.

Especially Axle's question is just weird.

Ok, here's a start. What part of "weird" makes it scum-indicative?

[Keyser Söze]

The only point I did not like regarding AxleGreaser is that he acknowledged by point/grammatical defence regarding Ircher:

Yes i see the distinction, curious vs Scummiest.

But then continued to press the same argument on Ircher (post 61). This made me marginally uncomfortable but this could just be town-AxleGreaser unsatisfied with Ircher's initial explanation. [I'm now waiting for their "chat"].

[AxleGreaser]

Geez, I don't know. Maybe because I take into account that there is a possibility that you are town? Perhaps I'm talking to the other players, too?

But if you think I shouldn't consider you town, then that's fine, too.

That would be fine except the second post(70) explicitly indicated you were not taking that into account and was reason you would not provide any reasoning on pisskop.
You have yet to explain why are both taking that into account and then almost immediately doing the opposite and stating you are so sure i am scum there is no reason to try and get me to vote Pisskop with you by explaining your reasons. 70

[AlwaysInnocent]

No. No matter how many times you may beat that post like a troll, if you don't add the meat to your accusations/reads you will be considered a joke. i.e if you create apathy/spam/irritation people are going to get angry or shut off. I think anger is hard to read as alignment indicative. If someone is ignoring you completely, that defeats the objective of getting interactions.

Please, keep in mind that we have barely left the RVS stage. You would be right to call me a joke if I kept this up throughout the whole game, but right now it is the best thing there is.

Ok, here's a start. What part of "weird" makes it scum-indicative?

It does not seem town motivated to me. Why would a townie need to know this at the start of the game, from a specific person? On the other hand, it makes you

appear

like you are actively participating in the game. This would be scum motivated, since town has much less interest in appearance.

It would also explain why he pointed out that he was a "stalker" in another game, too, where he just happened to be a VT.

[AxleGreaser]

This made me marginally uncomfortable but this could just be town-AxleGreaser unsatisfied with Ircher's initial explanation. [I'm now waiting for their "chat"].

Yeah I am not satisfied.

and I dont like the grammatical distinction being the explantion and want whatever the reasoning and thinking that went into his posts more clearly stated.

[Keyser Söze]

UNVOTE: AlwaysInnocent
I feel like my vote will be wasted here until AlwaysInnocent gets serious and begins sharing his conclusions/results (which does not include empty read lists).

P.EDIT

It does not seem town motivated to me. Why would a townie need to know this at the start of the game, from a specific person? On the other hand, it makes you

appear

like you are actively participating in the game. This would be scum motivated, since town has much less interest in appearance.

It would also explain why he pointed out that he was a "stalker" in another game, too, where he just happened to be a VT.

Ok, yes, players more concerned with being town-read more than actually scum-hunting is scum-indicative. It's his first post, so it's not a perfect example of this though, but I can see your perspective clearly now.

[AxleGreaser]

Indeed I am kinda concerned you accepted it so readily.
That is however way down on my list of priorities.

Id be more interested in the people standing back doing nothing than that.
AND Id need real clarity on what my read on Ircher is.

Also in terms of pressing, I can, at times press town read to make it stronger.
Knowing what I am doing takes either accurate reading or asking questions. They were both missing in some people readings of my post 7 and the subsequent happenings.

[AlwaysInnocent]

UNVOTE: AlwaysInnocent
I feel like my vote will be wasted here until AlwaysInnocent gets serious and begins sharing his conclusions/results (which does not include empty read lists).

P.EDIT

It does not seem town motivated to me. Why would a townie need to know this at the start of the game, from a specific person? On the other hand, it makes you

appear

like you are actively participating in the game. This would be scum motivated, since town has much less interest in appearance.

It would also explain why he pointed out that he was a "stalker" in another game, too, where he just happened to be a VT.

Ok, yes, players more concerned with being town-read more than actually scum-hunting is scum-indicative. It's his first post, so it's not a perfect example of this though, but I can see your perspective clearly now.

Thanks. You move slightly up in my read list.

[Keyser Söze]

Indeed I am kinda concerned you accepted it so readily.

Yes, I admittedly accepted his back-track "so readily" as I thought is was based on his

inexperience

. If he was an experienced player I would have sustained the pressure, as his reason would have been an unacceptable explanation.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ircher is quite a decent player (smart guy), but yes, he is inexperienced. So sometimes he makes beginner mistakes. In our last game together, this enabled scum to frame and lynch him in LYLO.

[AxleGreaser]

Strange that Axle asked Keyser about fake claim, during RVS. Never seen this happen before.

Yeah, it seemed a bit uncalled for. Not sure what to

make of it

.

Yeah that is a problem.

I wonder what you could do about it?

What do you want from me?

I would like you to play the game....

and there you go.
When not sure what to

make of it

.... if youare trying to figure the game out... you ask a bleeding question.

It does not seem town motivated to me. Why would a townie need to know this at the start of the game, from a specific person?

As Kaiser point out in 26 and i stated in post 9

Things i learned.
You're not tilted about them. I considered that a possibility.

Things I didn't learn.
Whether you are more opposed to them than I am.

I considered it possibility that kaiser might be tilted about fake Claims. As was also indicated that arose from reading games (stalking) As i have read variety of games some of which are ongoing, you probably need to look for yourself if you are truely curious.

As post 9 also says, or implies there was an aspect of trolling to the post. Again if your curious you will have to look for yourself.
And whether it is or not, isnt all that important it was as you noticed RVS.

I am quite happy for performer to vote me over it.

There is a distinction in Irchers reaction, from both yours and performers, that i wish to get to the bottom of. It may in the end be town read, at the moment its not.

Do you have anything else about this that needs clearing up?

[AxleGreaser]

It would also explain why he pointed out that he was a "stalker" in another game, too, where he just happened to be a VT.

I pointed out i was stalker in that game and this, out of politeness, to let people know of the asymmetric information position we are in.

I have read a significant number of games, and i consider it unfair to ambush people when i know much more about them than they realise at first.
It was also required, so kaiser could notice I would have read some of his previous games for the joke/troll aspect of the post.

So indeed I even had rough idea of kaisers opinions of fake claimers and that it was significantly negative. I wanted to tie down whether it had recently gotten somewhat higher. And I found out he was not tilted.

I also pointed it out in my first game on the forum for pretty much exactly that reason as i had read lots of the ICs games. And ooh here is me linking to post from previous game when i was scum. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6751112 and the other scum game where I didnt. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60866

[AxleGreaser]

Ircher is quite a decent player (smart guy), but yes, he is inexperienced. So sometimes he makes beginner mistakes. In our last game together, this enabled scum to frame and lynch him in LYLO.

We (Ircher and I) will have a chat.
and after or before that (idk which I will do yet) I will read his previous game to use as a baseline.

[Dierfire]

VOTE COUNT 1.03

Pisskop (3): Burning_Earth, Raskolnikov, AlwaysInnocent
Keyser Söze (2): Deus Asmoth, Ircher
AlwaysInnocent (2): Heat, pisskop
Ircher (1):, AxleGreaser
Mafiaturtle (1): lilac
AxleGreaser (1): Performer

No Vote (3): Mafiaturtle, massive, Keyser Söze

TIMER

(expired on 2016-01-20 12:00:00)

NOTES

Seeking replacement for Mafiaturtle

[Keyser Söze]

Strange that Axle asked Keyser about fake claim, during RVS. Never seen this happen before.

Yeah, it seemed a bit uncalled for. Not sure what to

make of it

.

Yeah that is a problem.

I wonder what you could do about it?

What do you want from me?

I would like you to play the game....

and there you go.
When not sure what to

make of it

....

if youare trying to figure the game out... you ask a bleeding question.

Ah OK - I now understand the tone you made post 22 in now: I originally read it as aggressive [negative], but you were infact asking for information (wanting AlwaysInnocent to follow up with his confusion with a question). [positive].

But as we've learn't, that's not AlwaysInnocent's RVS style.

Question: are you reading too much into his playstyle/method like I originally was?

Perhaps AlwaysInnocent was 'playing the game', 'figuring it/you out' when he posted this:

{Pisskop, Keyser, Axle}

AxleGreaser

+1

AlwaysInnocent

+2

[Dierfire]

UpTooLate replaces Mafiaturtle.

[Ircher]

@Axle

I have pretty much stated my reason, but perhaps I will give you my perspective in a different way.

When I made that first post about you being the most scummiest, I really meant "most suspicious". I wrote the post poorly though, so Keyser interpreted it as me saying other people stated you were the scummiest. Upon looking back over the post, I realized I meant to say "for the reason(s) others have stated."

Secondly, my only reason was simply your question. Though, to put it another way, at the time, your question made me suspicious of you and you were the only person who did anything that was suspicious to me.

Therefore, since no one else was suspicious to me, you were my top suspect.

I did not vote you for a few reasons: 1) We're still in RVS 2) Voting shows that you strongly believe someone is scum. I didn't strongly believe you were scum; I simply felt more suspicious of you versus everyone else. 3) It isn't a good thing to constantly be changing our votes. Since I had miniscule evidence suggesting you were scum, it wan't worth the effort.

Now, I voted Keyser for a few reasons: 1) He did seem to be rreally defending you. I found it a bit suspicious. 2) Combined with my suspicion of you, it did make you two seem like scum partners.

Finally, I have yet to unvote Keyser because I don't have a lot of reads. When I get more reads and find someone who is more deserving of a vote, I will probably change votes.

So far, my reads are as follows:

Lean Scum (Very Weak) - Keyser, Axle -- I've explained myself
Lean Town (Weak) - AI -- His joking attitude is actually town-indicative. I don't thing too many scums are as carefree as he is acting right now.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ircher is obviously town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Let's lynch Pisskop.

See his ISO:

AI, youre full of piss and vinegar today?

Some weird comment on my provocative behavior, and nothing more. At least Keyser confronted me with my lack of substance, which makes me place Keyser as fence-town for now. He seemed genuinely bothered by it. But Pisskop leaves it at that.

Then I vote for him, and call him scum.

Then he reacts:

eww. Its like you want me to push you for being shallow.

He says it is like I want him to push me for being shallow. But leaves it at that, again.

During this time, I am interacting with Keyser and Axle.

Then he simply places a vote on me:

vote" AI

You keep not engaging. We'll see who wins

"You keep not engaging," he says. Um. If someone is not engaging in this game, it is Pisskop.

Then he says: "We'll see who wins". This seems like a direct challenge to me. If he truly was town, then he would have to consider the possibility that I am town too. In that case, we win together. But it seems that he thinks he needs to win from me. Why? Because I think he is scum, and he knows I am town.

If he is scum, then he probably knows that I didn't have much on him at that point. It was simply an initial impression of me that he could be scum, but I went along with it. So he probably thought: "Who does he think he is? He knows nothing. I have only made a single post as scum. Surely he cannot

know

that I scum? Well, I'll show him and defeat him in a battle of wits." But by accepting my challenge he forgot something crucial: as town he would be more interested in solving this game with me than trying to beat me at my game.

[Keyser Söze]

Where is everyone?

Initial reads

AlwaysInnocent [town-lean] (I had initial problems with his playstyle, but after re-reading his posts I am seeing town-motivation in his interactions)

Spoiler:

Ircher [town-lean] (after the confusion with his use of "most scummy"/"scummiest" clarified, I like his reactions better - more natural, less illogical)

Spoiler:

AxleGreaser [null-town-lean] (I like his attention to detail and his close perspective of people's position. He is happy to follow up his questioning until fully satisfied. I feel like his probing has purpose.)

Spoiler:

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: AlwaysInnocent's scum-case on pisskop

Let's lynch Pisskop.

See his ISO:

AI, youre full of piss and vinegar today?

Some weird comment on my provocative behavior, and nothing more. At least Keyser confronted me with my lack of substance, which makes me place Keyser as fence-town for now. He seemed genuinely bothered by it. But Pisskop leaves it at that.

Then I vote for him, and call him scum.

Then he reacts:

eww. Its like you want me to push you for being shallow.

He says it is like I want him to push me for being shallow. But leaves it at that, again.

During this time, I am interacting with Keyser and Axle.

Then he simply places a vote on me:

vote" AI

You keep not engaging. We'll see who wins

"You keep not engaging," he says. Um. If someone is not engaging in this game, it is Pisskop.

Then he says: "We'll see who wins". This seems like a direct challenge to me. If he truly was town, then he would have to consider the possibility that I am town too. In that case, we win together. But it seems that he thinks he needs to win from me. Why? Because I think he is scum, and he knows I am town.

If he is scum, then he probably knows that I didn't have much on him at that point. It was simply an initial impression of me that he could be scum, but I went along with it. So he probably thought: "Who does he think he is? He knows nothing. I have only made a single post as scum. Surely he cannot

know

that I scum? Well, I'll show him and defeat him in a battle of wits." But by accepting my challenge he forgot something crucial: as town he would be more interested in solving this game with me than trying to beat me at my game.

"I feel like sheeping this."

VOTE: pisskop

[pisskop]

This game is dumb. AI is dumb. I have never seen such an overbearing attempt to get me to ???