California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

9 to lynch.

Adele: 2 (Gaspar, VitaminR)
logicticus: 1 (Mgm)
Mgm: 1 (Tamuz)
Skruffs: 1 (Cogito Ergo Sum)
Tamuz: 1 (Skruffs)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But you'd need a darn good claim that was consistent with poisoning to get away with it, Mgm. It's possible, just really unlikely.

[IH]

bleh didn't notice this opened

will post later.

[Tamuz]

Uh Skruff... you did claim, maybe not a full claim but you still claimed to have a night power.
You kinda scumplay lead there... A good scum should do X. You did Y, which a good scum wouldn't, therefore you are scum. Huh?
I see you words either as stupid town play, or a scum attempt to establish value.

[Talitha]

Well, three people who were thought to be dubious yesterday are dead and all three turned up innocent. I'm less surprised that Jeep/Battle Mage was innocent, but rather surprised about cubs and xxyzz.

I need to digest this new info and look back over Day 1 before making a new/improved lynch list.

[LoudmouthLee]

The following things strike me as true. Please pardon my speculation. I feel that looking at deaths would be rather beneficial for the town.

BM looks to me to be a "mafia" kill. BM claimed a cop type role, and especially with the Xyzzy death (as an innocent), I highly doubt that Xyzzy was a mafia kill.

Xyzzy was either a vig kill or an SK kill (if he have a SK). Xyzzy has a lot of heat on him yesterday, and was almost lynched. He would have been bandwagoned and would have been a relatively easy mis-lynch today. I doubt the Mafia would really spend their kill on killing someone who would die anyway.

Xyzzy makes sense as a vig kill and a SK kill for the same exact reason. Both entities are looking to eradicate scum. I want to do a little bit of research, and I will double post in a few moments.

[LoudmouthLee]

Last to feel Monte Cristo's vengeance is Villefort. Villefort's family is divided. Valentine, his daughter by his first wife, stands to inherit the entire fortune of her grandfather and of her mother's parents (the Saint-Mérans), while his second wife, Héloïse, seeks the fortune for her small son Edward. Monte Cristo is aware of Héloïse's intentions, and "innocently" introduces her to the technique of poison. Héloïse fatally poisons the Saint-Mérans, so that Valentine gets their inheritance. Then she attempts to murder Valentine's grandfather, Nortier, but his servant accidentally drinks the poisonous draught and dies. Nortier is coincidentally saved from a second attempt when he disinherits Valentine as a ploy to stop Villefort from forcing Valentine to marry Franz d'Epinay. Héloïse then targets Valentine, so that Edward would get her fortune.
...snip...
After Monte Cristo learns that his old friend Morrel's son is in love with Valentine, he saves her by making it appear as though Héloïse's plan to poison Valentine has succeeded and that Valentine is dead (although actually in a drugged sleep caused by a mixture of hashish and opium prepared by Monte Cristo). Villefort learns from Noirtier that Héloïse is a murderer. Villefort confronts Héloïse, giving her the choice of a public execution or committing suicide by poison. Then he goes off to Andrea's trial. There, Andrea reveals that he is Villefort's son, and rescued after Villefort buried him alive. Villefort admits his guilt and flees the court. He feels he is as guilty as his wife, and rushes home to stop her suicide. He finds she has poisoned herself and "taken her son with her." Dantès confronts Villefort. Villefort shows Dantès his dead wife and son, and becomes insane. Dantès tries to resuscitate Edward, fails, and is remorseful that his revenge has gone too far.

This means the following, at least in my humble opinion:

Valentine is a vigilante, using the poison that has been taught by COMC or Héloïse is the Serial Killer, also in tune with poisons.

Let's continue on.

I find MGM still to be most suspicious (especially since he believes that Cubs's power could be faked.) The last few CES posts make me feel very uneasy, a stark contrast to D1, wher I had him pegged as VLI (Very Likely Innocent). I am still suspicious of Adele and IH, as said earlier.

I'm going to metagame Zindy right now and find him likely innocent at the fevor he went after a mislynch of Xyzzy.

Unvote, since Xyzzy is dead, if necessary

Vote: MGM

, Adele, IH, CES, [everyone else], Zindy, No Lynch, LML

[IH]

I already quoted the guy. I have evidence (the quote that states what he actually said), you have speculation (the idea he might've slipped up).

But I never said he slipped up. I just think it's misleading.

I don't like the oocam's razor argument, and agree with CES there.

Also, Gaspar, dude, as I repeated previously, there's nothing special in non-deadline situations about making lists of suspects in this game, so if you want to advocate making lists all the time in this game, you should advocate it in all games.

QFT

"Automatically and everytime"? No. Although I've noted your exaggeration/use of extremes.

Well that seemed to have been your stance at the time. That MGM was suspicious because he hadn't done it YET.

I have found great success in FORCING other players into interactions with each other. Interactions/Opinions from a protown player will be genuine and will have their own indicators. Those coming from a scumbag will be forced and/or contrived and will also have their own indicators. Reading those indicators is a pretty damned good way of finding scums.

While I do not request full suspicion lists from all players in every game "automatically and everytime," I would say that I *DO* generally ask more questions of more players. That is something that not enough players do in Mafia, I think.

And I do the same, but do you do so in the beginning of the game?

Not for the first time in this game, I am being misquoted or misinterpreted. I never stated or hinted that protown players should find not-using-Concordet preferable to using-Concordet. I never stated that using it would be scummy. I argued against the opposite stance: that not-using-Concordet is a scum tell (see jeep's posts: his opinion is that the only reason not to use it is if you are scum). I am perfectly happy with someone using this method straight from post 1 but I don't think there is any meaning behind a Condorcet list unless you have a reasonable opinion on a number of players, hence my preference to wait until the mid of day one.

.....quotes please, I remember you arguing that pushing for not using it as a scumtell was scummy

Gaspar is proving to be a worthy replacement for PWS. I feel comfortable with GASPAR because of the amount of text being posted in a short time makes me feel that they are comfortable in the role and therefore less likely to be scum.

I would disagree with this statement, simply because a component of Gaspar is GLork.

And Glork=Text

right, time for a claim. I am Pierre Picaud. My role is basically that of a Cop, except that instead of a guilty/innocent investigation, i get a piece of information corresponding to the character of my target. As such, i become confirmable after night 1. My role itself doesnt actually catch scum, but it can be used to trap liars (assuming the scum characters of this theme are distinguishable from the town characters). But the fact that post-Night 1, i become a confirmed innocent, means its worth keeping me around. lol

I'm actually surprised BM died last night, as he wasn't really confirmable.... a rolecop is much more likely to be scum than town.

I also feel obliged to point out at this point that Primate and I talked over AIM a bit last night, and he disagrees with most of what I've said. We're currently trying to figure out some system of balancing our own suspicions (aside from discussing with each other to try to come to a consensus on what to do). So far, the two things we've come up with were a ranking system (where we each do our own ranked suspicion lists and then weigh/average them against each other to come up with a single Concordet list) or to just focus on the points where we do agree.

XDXDXD

I understand how condorcents work now I think.... the vote leader as counted as the condorcent leader, right? And then if the vote leaders are tied it goes to the next condorcents?

See I thought at deadline the current votes were disregarded, and it just went straight to condorcent lists.

Was his life the basis for the story or the Count of Monte Christo himself? I'm kind of weary he's an inspiration rather than an actual character from the book.

The second person (other being Skruffs) who has concern about roles being in the book or not.

His life was the basis/inspiration behind the novel. However, I'm not sure what makes you think that all roles must be characters in the book. If you are protown, you're bleeding information that you probably don't want to reveal. Remember that this game is "Dantes in Fresno" and that it is "based (very) loosely" on the novel.

1.If you think he's protown, why did you reveal this information? I'm unsure many would have connected MGM having a role from the book

2.

remember this when/if MGM claims

SOMEONE PLEASE

I'm unsure how I feel about the sudden Lee turn, as I wanted Cubsfan dead.

but I wanted LML dead too

= \

I didn't count it explicitly as two families because it says that the trio killers were only mafia like. I thought it was two families, but the first post suggests otherwise - a band of three SKs or something. Do your research!
Why would I consider this game an exception? IT is themed around a book, but other than that, I am not sure what you are saying is exceptional about it. Of course, ANY game run by Mr. Gray will be exceptional in it's lay out. Is there something exceptional about this game in your opinion, IH, that you would say something like that?

Skruffs, they are a group that win if they become the majority with a collective kill.

THAT is a mafia family.

It's not really an exception. I don't think I said it was an exception, did I? If so I'll have to look at my post and see what I'm talking about. >.<;

updating my voting:

vote IH/oman, mgm, cubs, [adele, foolinc], [everyone not mentioned], no lynch, battle mage, logicticus

Could you please explain your reason for this voting Logictus?

Side note to future readers: VitaminR and Cubs playing similarly 'behind' other, more obvious players.

Right, because I've used LML's reasoning to back up every accusation I've made. Oh wait, I haven't done that once. Even you I went after for my own reasons.

Playing Similarily and backing each other up are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

I also have a meta-read on IH as scum as well. Truth be told.

I'd like to see this, as the last game I played with you in you were scum and I was town.
Vague scumtells are horrible.
I also wonder if characters from the book are scum.... which would fit Skruffs and MGM's questions if they are scum.

Unvote
Vote: Cubsfan, Xyzzy, MGM, Zindaras, Skruffs, Adele, Thesp, [foolinc, pooky, tally, Tamuz, IH, Logictius, Dani Banani ], [DP, Gaspar, VitR], CES, BattleMage / Jeep

Notice the list as well, he has a supposed scum meta on me but I am below Zindy, Adele, AND Thesp. I am actually 8th on the list, tied up with 6 other players.

Damn lazy player, Primate. READ MY ROLECLAIM.

I don't like how he's relying on his claim either.

I propose Gaspar post an underlined P or G in the beginning of each one of their posts.

I really dislike Lee's posts on page 22

Madre de dios translates into Mother of God.
Woo!

Assuming this is true, if we are inactive during the day portion of the game, we are handing a clear advantage to the scums.

I <3 Glork

Mgm: Have you read the links in the first post? Have you read them carefully? Why on earth did you ask "what are Dantes"?

I didn't read those... I'll read them after this post.

I never liked this. I feel that her vote on me was a policy vote and had nothing to do with any of my posts. She has left her vote on me since then.

Then why was she on the top of your condorcent list?
Also, according to the votecount, Adele was on DP, not you.

Let it be known that IH, who I believe is scummy, refused to unvote me with his post.

Let it be known that I am way down on your condorcent list, and you who are relying on a claim to back up on your authority and an unclaimed meta, claim to be suspicious of me.
Also I had not been reading when I posted that so I was unaware of yours AND BM's claim.

hee the heart of the cards.

Well since I can't challenge again till the next day I guess I'm fucked. The role PM says I'd be sure to kill them so I suppose it doesn't always work or something? Just saying this for the town's benefit tomorrow. LML is probably scum.

This should be noted. Something about LML is weird.

ah ok. does that mean that LML is neutral, seeing as the supposed scum result, and the town result didnt happen?

This is interesting

Though in regards to his argument with Zindy.....

BM continues to PHAIL

Buh? Tamuz, I think you overstepped yourself there... I do not see myself as being able to be able to 'yank us along on my RC', in as much as I haven't roleclaimed yet.. Of course, if mafia has a roleblocker, and they blocked me, they would of course immediately want to discredit me for it, wouldn't they? Only they'd want to wait until a more oppurtune time, after more had been revealed. You jumped the gun.

vote : tamuz

You essentially softclaimed.

A poisoner seems to have killed Xyzzy.

MGM actions yesterday do not raise my opinion of him. I will note that this doesn't have anything to do with his condorcent thing.

I continue to agree with CES.

I expect LML to answer my questions.

= \ I am extremely unsure in this game, yet again. I dislike LML pointing towards flavor for a vig role. A LOT. Especially since both protown roles so far have been real people not in the book. I also wonder why LML would do such a thing. To essentially give someone a fake claim.

I expect LML to answer my question about the meta he has on me. If he says it's in an ongoing game I'm going to be angry.

Pending that... even WITH the evidence for him as town and the claim from him, I want to do this which is mostly based off of hunches and things from late yesterday which I hit upon in this post.

vote:LML

MGM, VitR, Logictus, Talitha

[Mgm]

I find MGM still to be most suspicious (especially since he believes that Cubs's power could be faked.)

Disagreeing with me is fine, but if you choose to do that, don't go ignoring post 635.

[LoudmouthLee]

I expect LML to answer my question about the meta he has on me. If he says it's in an ongoing game I'm going to be angry.

It's not. You were online at the time of the post. You were "active" in Theme Park. It's a meta read, and I didn't vote you. I'm allowed to feel a certain way. Let's couple this with the fact that...

a) You haven't been reading. Did you even notice the duel that basically (for all intents and purposes) cleared me? No one has counterclaimed my role. My role makes sense. Cubs tried to duel me, and he was PROMISED by the mod if I were scum, I'd be dead. He said that himself. He's dead now, confirmed as innocent.

b) You havent been posting in this game, even when you're online. I know this is completely WIFOM, but You were online AND in Theme Park while I made my post. i can't be sure that you saw it, but a good mafia player ignores nothing.

Stop voting for the

most

confirmed innocent this town HAS right now.

(Note: I know, in no way, I could be a confirmed innocent... but.. draw your own conclusions)

[LoudmouthLee]

and... I am merely speculating the TYPES of kills we have. So we can chart them later. You are being completely remiss if you don't look at the players who die and draw conclusions from there, wether it a framing or not. The more info the town has, the better.

[Mgm]

Altered list:

Unvote;
Vote: Logicticus

, Skruffs, [Tamuz, Adele, Thesp, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear, Dani Banani, foolinc], Gaspar, [IH, VitaminR], No lynch, [Zindaras, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix], LoudmouthLee, Mgm.

[Mgm]

I'm going to metagame Zindy right now and find him likely innocent at the fevor he went after a mislynch of Xyzzy.

Please explain that metagame because it makes no sense. Someone who actively seeks a mislynch should be considered scummy, not likely innocent.

[IH]

a) You haven't been reading. Did you even notice the duel that basically (for all intents and purposes) cleared me? No one has counterclaimed my role. My role makes sense. Cubs tried to duel me, and he was PROMISED by the mod if I were scum, I'd be dead. He said that himself. He's dead now, confirmed as innocent.

yes I have read that.

b) You havent been posting in this game, even when you're online. I know this is completely WIFOM, but You were online AND in Theme Park while I made my post. i can't be sure that you saw it, but a good mafia player ignores nothing.

What time did you see me online? Because there have been plenty of times when I'm looking in other games I'm dead at. I haven't had too much time lately to make long posts and in depth read, but I HAVE had time to make replies to shorter things.

It actually took me two hours to make my preceeding post from reading the last 8 pages I missed.

Stop voting for the most confirmed innocent this town HAS right now

This is another thing. I dislike you relying on your claim, and Cubs word, who could have possibly misread his role since he DID claim count of monte cristo. I find it scummy.

I find a LOT of things about your play yesterday scummy.

I still wonder why you didn't mention your meta yesterday, but only said you had one? Not only that you repeatedly said I was scummy, only presenting this reason I believe, and had me way down on your condorcent list?

and... I am merely speculating the TYPES of kills we have. So we can chart them later. You are being completely remiss if you don't look at the players who die and draw conclusions from there, wether it a framing or not. The more info the town has, the better.

Looking at nightkills and coming up with potential roleclaims are two different things.

[LoudmouthLee]

I thought you were scummy, but it was for a circumstasncial meta reason.

I was not coming up with potential RCs, I, instead, was trying to figure out if we had a vig or an SK doing those kills. As of now, I posted both to see what the town thought.

To push really hard for a mislynch D1, IMHO, is a pro-town manuveur. I find that it brings undue attention, something that scum is trying to avoid.

[IH]

I was not coming up with potential RCs, I, instead, was trying to figure out if we had a vig or an SK doing those kills. As of now, I posted both to see what the town thought.

To push really hard for a mislynch D1, IMHO, is a pro-town manuveur. I find that it brings undue attention, something that scum is trying to avoid.

But you did! You gave way to much flavor attention, and just pretty much gave someone a roleclaim that had more flavor than your actual claim had.

Also, I would disagree with this point, and say it is more of a null tell. Pushing for a lynch that turned out to be a mislynch day 1 would depend upon the player I think. It's not something generic.

[Dani Banani]

i believe this argument between IH & LmL is between two townies... i also believe that since xyzzy is dead, Mgm is the correct play for today...

vote: Mgm

[Gaspar]

(Glork. Also, IH, this is how I've been signing my posts for a while, and it's how I will continue to do so. I think it's clear enough.)

And I do the same, but do you do so in the beginning of the game?

Yes, definitely. Beginning of the game is the best time to get information by forcing players' hands. In my experience, most scumbaggos aren't terribly comfortable at the onset of the game... I've found that many of them take about half a day to settle into their roles, so hitting hard at the very BEGINNING of the game can be crucial.

1.If you think he's protown, why did you reveal this information? I'm unsure many would have connected MGM having a role from the book

Obviously I don't think he's protown -- he's second on my Condorcet list right now, and definitely one of my top suspects. However, A) Protown players in general shouldn't display their ignorance because it often reveals information about who they are (not); and B) On the chance that Mgm

is

actually protown, it would serve as a warning to him to quiet down and do his homework.


In other news, I agree with Dani's assessment that IH/LmL are probably both town. I find IH's most recent post to be rather genuine, and I've not seen much reason to suspect him at this point.

[Skruffs]

VitminR, is there a significant difference between a 'soft claim' and a 'role claim'?

Tamuz, i still don't understand why you would immediately assume that i would be scum because i said i was roleblocked. I believe you have a reason, but i don't think it's'a public reason.

vote : tamuz

,[ces, ngn, vitr]

[Mgm]

VitminR, is there a significant difference between a 'soft claim' and a 'role claim'?

Tamuz, i still don't understand why you would immediately assume that i would be scum because i said i was roleblocked. I believe you have a reason, but i don't think it's'a public reason.

vote : tamuz

,[ces, ngn, vitr]

Who's ngn?

[Zindaras]

I have not read anything since Day started. I, do, however, need to post 25 or more words to satisfy the mod. So I'm going to say that I'll get you guys a post tomorrow, as I was largely busy today.

[Thesp]

I have not read anything since Day started. I, do, however, need to post 25 or more words to satisfy the mod. So I'm going to say that I'll get you guys a post tomorrow, as I was largely busy today.

The same thing goes for me - I'm wiped out right now (I've been sick for half the week), and will post more in the morning. Off the top of my head, the LmL vote looks like lunacy, but I'll go back and look at it in the morning.

[IH]

Yes, definitely. Beginning of the game is the best time to get information by forcing players' hands. In my experience, most scumbaggos aren't terribly comfortable at the onset of the game... I've found that many of them take about half a day to settle into their roles, so hitting hard at the very BEGINNING of the game can be crucial.

next time we're on the equivalent of page 4 of a game I'll be sure to ask for a complete read on every player of the game.

Obviously I don't think he's protown -- he's second on my Condorcet list right now, and definitely one of my top suspects. However, A) Protown players in general shouldn't display their ignorance because it often reveals information about who they are (not); and B) On the chance that Mgm is actually protown, it would serve as a warning to him to quiet down and do his homework.

Ah misunderstood as such.

Just in case this was lost in the depths of my post, I would like to see people's opinions on this.

This is another thing. I dislike you relying on your claim, and Cubs word, who could have possibly misread his role since he DID claim count of monte cristo. I find it scummy.

I also wonder what happens if Cubs did understand his role, but LML was neither town nor scum?

[Mgm]

This is a quick note to let you all know that I will be away from my computer for the majority of the day. I don't expect to be back within the next fourteen real life hours.

[VitaminR]

VitminR, is there a significant difference between a 'soft claim' and a 'role claim'?

Yes... I think so.

I'm starting to change my mind about IH. He seems more sincere today for some reason.

I'm not fond of the MGM vote and I'm going to make a few gut changes to my vote.

Vote: Adele

, foolinc, logicticus, Tamuz, Dani Banani