Mini 499: Just Your typical Mafia Game GAME OVER!!!!!!!!

[cicero]

Phew. You're right. L-1 now.

You really should have explained that shaka!! was already voting for the Prof when you voted.

Don't ever do that again, BM. You scared the sh*t out of me.

ok, so you obviously have strong reason to believe Guppy is town right?
in which case, would you be so good as to explain your view, rather than let him die?

I don't have a strong reason per se ... as you can see in my previous post, it's based on how he was playing in the earlier game; much the same as this one, where he turned out town. Also, I don't think he's faking his apparent despair over being unfairly attacked. All in all, I think it's more likely than not that he's town, scummy as he

looks

. Besides, I think he deserves further chances to redeem himself. I've seen far too many games where someone who messes up like this is quicklynched and turns up town.

Anyway, my main concern is, of course, that regardless of PG's alignment, hammering would have ended the day on page 7, which is way too premature, IMO.

P.S. Prof. - I join BM in requesting a claim.

I don't know. This was the first thought I had when you reacted the way you did. It just seems that you had to be pretty damn certain that Guppy is town to respond that way. I having a feeling that the gupster is town, but I don't know if I am anywhere near that certain.

This is what I mean. I believe Gorgon here. I don't think his shock and fear looks scummy at all. This is my whole "mis-tell" problem. I'm applying Occam's razor here and thinking that Gorgon's post of relief was the normal response of anyone, well, feeling relief. Smells honest to me. I disagree completely that this is in any way remotely scummy.

Which, Gorgon, doesn't mean you aren't scum. Just that I reject that particular tell against you wholeheartedly.

Mod Edit

Vote Count

Prof. Guppy- 3 (Battle Mage, daedalus, shaka!!)

Honary Hitchhiker- 2 (AlyG, ChocolateAttack)
somestrangeflea- 2 (cicero, Gorgon)
AlyG- 1 (somestrangeflea)
Battle Mage- 1 (pwayne66)
theopor_COD- 1 (Prof. Guppy)

Not voting (2): Honary Hitchhiker, Theopor_COD

7 to lynch

[pwayne66]

@BM- I'm sorry that you feel that you get lynched because you are you. If this was just a a game of logic or most loudly shouted argument, this probably wouldn't be the case. The connection you seem to fail to make is that the game is about a lot more than that. It's about team work, politics and popularity. It's about having the social skills and enough understanding of people to know that shouting "you guys have crappy logic" or "BS reasoning" doesn't help convince anybody of your case, in fact, it has the opposite effect.

Now, as far as I can tell, you have one vote. Not a bandwagon. You have that one vote for stated reasons. What exactly is the problem here?

[Battle Mage]

check out mafia discussion for how i'm feeling atm. I may be posting less frequently from now on, or alternatively, not at all. lol
I'll try and keep you posted (as infrequently as possible).

[shaka!!]

Ok. Let me explain my vote.

As scummy as it seems

I HATE EMOTIONAL PLAYERS.

They cry and cry and cry and have such a defeated, my life sucks attitude, it just pisses me off. This is the internet for Petes sake.

But I wouldn't just vote because I hate someone (although I do believe in lynching all emotional players, they will never help town and will always cause confusion, like we've recently had). The wierdo non-logic CLA had given us for his votes was enough to raise my suspicion, but I wanted to hold off until I had gotten more from him, which I didn't. How ever I did get hypocritical errors and a tell in which he said he wanted to

look

innocent. Mostly likely a newbie error, but lets put it this way, if you are being hypnotized and the dude tells you to act like you are a car, you will act like it, but when he says to

act

normal, you will be

acting

normal, not being normal. Ie he wants to look innocent, not be innocent. Like scum.

But I am willing to let go of my vote on this one, in hopes that he mature up for further games and actually learn something. But if he starts to cast any more confusion and dismay like before, I will vote on him with and iron fist.

Unvote, Vote: somestrangeflea

Oh also, Prof. Guppy man up and vote for me, if you want to apply pressure you have to be direct. Unless I am near being lynched or unless you are voting for someone else and want to tell me you think I am suspicious FoS of generally useless.

Also, Townies shouldn't care about their image, scum should be concerned about their image cause scum aren't townie.

[Battle Mage]

[quote="shaka!!"]Also, Townies shouldn't care about their image/quote]

I dont know who Shaka's last post was directed at, but the above is not true.
I wish it was, but sadly, it is often the case that townies get mislynched because they dont bother trying to assert themselves as protown.

BM

[theopor_COD]

I'm not really feeling this SSF wagon. Especially when Chocolate Attack and Daedelus are missing even more. I do however agree with Shaka's sentiment on Emotional Players 100%!

[pwayne66]

As scummy as it seems I HATE EMOTIONAL PLAYERS. They cry and cry and cry and have such a defeated, my life sucks attitude, it just pisses me off. This is the internet for Petes sake.

Is this an emotional post about emotional posters?

[Prof. Guppy]

As scummy as it seems I HATE EMOTIONAL PLAYERS.

Okay, I can respect that. Unfortunately, emotionality is part of who I am, and I don't expect that will ever change. However, for the sake of better gameplay, I'll try to keep from going ballistic.

Now, if you had given me a horrible reason, I would have instantly switched my vote to you. For now, I'm going to assume you're on my side and leave my vote on theo.

On second thought,

Unvote

. I'm not feeling the flea-wagon either.

[cicero]

I'm not really feeling this SSF wagon. Especially when Chocolate Attack and Daedelus are missing even more. I do however agree with Shaka's sentiment on Emotional Players 100%!

Please note that I'm not votiing him just because he is lurking. I am already used to lots of people drifting away from their mafia games. Again, he is

actively

lurking. And, more importantly, I thought his bandwagon push on AlyG was a scummy move.

[shaka!!]

Just notifying you fellahs that I won't have access to the internet until the 17th.

[AlyG]

Guys i'm here no need for more prods, i'll post something later.

[Prof. Guppy]

Vote: somestrangeflea

I still think theo is Mafia, and I think he might be tring to cover for flea. Either that or they're masons, which I highly doubt.

[pwayne66]

Color me confused gup. From what I gather:

1) you aren't feeling the flea wagon
2) you think theo is scum
3) you think theo is covering for flea
4) you unvoted theo
5) you voted for flea.

how do you reconcile this? It seems that theo is your #1 and you have doubts about flea but you are voting for him.

[somestrangeflea]

Please note that I'm not votiing him just because he is lurking. I am already used to lots of people drifting away from their mafia games. Again, he is actively lurking.

Very good.

And, more importantly, I thought his bandwagon push on AlyG was a scummy move.

OH OF COURSE! The perfectly logical vote for AlyG followed by no further mention of his name is

obviously

pushing for a bandwagon...

Unvote

Vote: Cicero

On second thought,

Unvote

. I'm not feeling the flea-wagon either.

So, you unvote theo, and post that you're not feeling my wagon. Fair enough, except that 4 posts later...

Vote: somestrangeflea

So, what changed? The only post between your two posts which even related to me was cicero's post, which therefore means that cicero's post was what made you change your mind. What about his post made you change your mind about me?

[JordanA24]

Prodding ChocolateAttack and daedaulus

Edit: CA has PMed me, he's having computer problems at the moment, he'll try to post as often as possible.

[cicero]

Sigh... guppy.

I'm suddenly having one of those "please don't help me" moments...

What DID change your mind about the "fleawagon" (and does a fleawagon look anything like the batmobile)? You're playing this game by shaking a magic eightball aren't you.

[cicero]

OH OF COURSE! The perfectly logical vote for AlyG followed by no further mention of his name is

obviously

pushing for a bandwagon...

Eyeroll all you want. We have a clear disagreement over the "perfectly logical" nature of your vote. Again Occam's Razor (which is as useful a counterpoint to WIFOM as I've heard yet). Everyone tell me what conclusions they draw from this pattern, if any.

The Game starts with random voting. Three people vote randomly for AlyG: Chocolate Attack, Daedelus and Theo put random votes on AlyG in relatively quick succession.

AlyG then makes what I think is a perfectly reasonable post which is quickly becoming infamous:

Any reason at all why you have just piled a 3rd vote on me? It's only the first page and you seem a bit eager to vote here. Maybe scum trying to keep pressure away from themselves? FOMS: theopor_COD

Anyway time for a random vote.

Vote: somestrangeflea

This to me is perfectly reasonable because AlyG does a perfectly normal reaction in the situation. When it is seen as appropriate to vote, as opposed to FOS, in a Mafiascum game appears to be a fluid concept. In the last game I played in players were reticent to vote (other than random). There was this idea of "building a case first" and on more than one occasion the line "I'm not ready to vote for you yet, but..." was uttured. In this game the opposite challenge has occurred. NOT voting looks scummy here, apparently. In the first few pages AlyG was basically told to put his money where his mouth was, and if he didn't he must be scum. I disagree completely. My read on his play was that he gave the most reasonable reaction of all available to him. He could have voted for Theo and been accused of impetuous OMGUSsing or he could have ignored something that obviously deserved a mention. I refuse to accuse him of scum based on him choosing the most reasonable of the three options: give the move what it deserved, a finger of suspicion and proceed with his random vote like a normal player in his first post.

So, I certainly think Theo needed to explain why he decided to add a third vote.

But then Flea, the recipient of the random vote, comes along and questions that logic. But in no way do I see how scum would benefit from such a reaction. Nor do I see ANY rationale behind the assertion that this is the move that a scum who was trying to look town would make. Just the opposite. I expect scum to try very hard not to do anything that might get flagged at all. Put simply I personally would have been more likely to do what AlyG did if I was town than if I was scum.

On the other hand, I would certainly be more likely to do what Flea did if I was scum as well. There is a pre-existing bandwagon available that I could jump on. People's random votes are already parked there. Which doesn't mean they can't change it but - hell human nature and inertia come into play and bodies at rest tend to stay at rest and all of that - in other words it might be slightly easier to get someone to stick than to move, and bam there is a four vote bandwagon on AlyG. Obviously flea doesn't think this will definitely work, anything can happen in mafia, but one works with the tools available.

So an early bandwagon that could reasonably have been about Theo turned into a pursuit of the more reasonably acting AlyG.

THEN when the discussion turns to CLA, Flea keeps his head well down. He pops up long enough to say he will speak when CLA responds but doesn't really. And even after Gorgon he continues actively lurking. The discussions about CLA, myself, guppy and battlemage were "juicy" enough that I would expect a curious and attentive player to have an opinion on them. Not to be flying under the radar. I would expect a scum player who thought that things were floating along nicely towards a bandwagon and who had already jumped on a previous bandwagon to have an incentive to keep his head down. Flea is acting as scum would reasonably act.

Finally, I notice that Flea has a tendency to OMGUS. He voted for AlyG after AlyG randomly voted for him and has just voted for me after I made this case of suspicion against him. I bring this to the town's attention not as a scum tell, but to suggest you keep it in mind when assessing his motivation for any further votes. Not that they will continue being OMGUS (after reading this he'll be unlikely to do that) but because if he IS a townie, he seems to have an emotional knee jerk elements to his voting.

[cicero]

"Even After Gorgon" should be "Even after Guppy".

[pwayne66]

Ah Cicero...

Some good points are made that ought not be ignored. I'd like to see flea address this. While we are at it: Guppy, you have some explaining to do yourself.

[Gorgon]

Well, extremely weird as GP's play may be, he does have an interesting point. Why did Theo point to ChocolateAttack and daedalus, saying they were 'missing even more'?

Note the difference between 'missing' and 'lurking'. Missing is less scummy than lurking, in my book - especially actively lurking, which is what SSF was definitely doing (by his own admittence, even). There could be any number of external factors that lead to people being missing from a game.

daedalus not posted since the 10th on this forum, at all.

CA is admittedly slightly more suspicious though, as he posted here on the 10th, and in another game on the 12th.

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but it is interesting to note. Theo's reply these ponderings will be interesting to see.

Also, I like SSF's post above. Looks like he's finally getting into this game again. He picked up on something that I missed; cicero's accusation that SSF was pushing for an AlyG bandwagon. Well, I did notice it, but didn't think much of it. Now that I actually went back to check on what he's talking about, I see it as a somewhat unjustified attack. SSF even stated himself that the AlyG bandwagon wasn't really that strong, in post 37. In that post, he's saying "All the other votes except mine are random" - therefore

lifting

pressure off of AlyG, if anything. I certainly don't see anything that indicates that he's trying to get more people to vote for AlyG, or encouraging people to keep their votes on him. Now, say what you will about the merits of SSF voting for AlyG, and the strength of his stated reason, but I just don't see it as pushing for a bandwagon. I came to this conclusion before I read cicero's post 216, where he elaborates on this attack, so it just didn't read right to me.

I'd love to hear how cicero responds to that. He doesn't address this aspect of his accusation in his last post.

However, his elaboration on SSF's lurkiness is something that I agree with 100%. The same applies to his tendency to OMGUS.

Also, there is this:

So an early bandwagon that could reasonably have been about Theo turned into a pursuit of the more reasonably acting AlyG.

So, cicero, are you suggesting that SSF might have been trying to deflect attention from Theo? Interesting ...

[cicero]

Now, say what you will about the merits of SSF voting for AlyG, and the strength of his stated reason, but I just don't see it as pushing for a bandwagon. I came to this conclusion before I read cicero's post 216, where he elaborates on this attack, so it just didn't read right to me.

I'd love to hear how cicero responds to that. He doesn't address this aspect of his accusation in his last post.

I guess there is a semantic element to this. This is an interesting point because it depends on your definition of "pushing for a bandwagon". Maybe my language was too strong? and that includes figuring out the definition of "bandwagon". In some senses bandwagon seems to reply to votes with purpose for one person and in other uses just to votes for one person. Let's put it this way: there was a guy with 3 votes. Flea added a fourth and suggested the guy might be scum and asked him to defend his actions." Random votes, if left on, will still get someone lynched if other votes are added. So why

wouldn't

scum start from 4 instead of 1? I don't think to push for a bandwagon one needs to be as overt as battlemage was towards me. But if others do then please factor that in to your votes accordingly and I'll happily change my language. I guess implicit for me is that a "vote" is an official articulation of the opinion "I think the town should hang this player". So call that what you will.

Sorry for not addressing it directly before and thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Also, there is this:

So an early bandwagon that could reasonably have been about Theo turned into a pursuit of the more reasonably acting AlyG.

So, cicero, are you suggesting that SSF might have been trying to deflect attention from Theo? Interesting ...

It ABSOLUTELY crossed my mind as a possibility and so I put it out there. "Might have been" is the right characterisation. Put it this way, I don't think my theory hinges on it but I have an eyeball on Theo. At the same time it's hard to draw any conclusions from scum teamplay since they happily bus each other all the time. And saving Theo is absolutely NOT a necessary motive for this theory. But yeah, Theo as another scum wouldn't exactly shock me.

[ChocolateAttack]

Hi guys! sorry, my comp broke 2 days ago and the only internet access i got is form the school but too busy with test recently so i do a little reading but neven have the time to make post.

Again, with not much time, i only scan through the thread and focus on what important so far.

Prof Gubby: he replaced MLA and he was under alot of pressure since there many votes on CLA head.
1. His vote for himself was scummy but i think he just too newb to know that.
2. What with the random vote for Theo? we have like 6 or 7 pages of clues so instead of reading it and make proper vote, he randomly voted Theo, so i

FoS

this.

I want to keep my vote on Orlowski or now honary Hitchhiker since he hasn't vote ever since replacement.

[cicero]

I'm not really feeling this SSF wagon. Especially when Chocolate Attack and Daedelus are missing even more. I do however agree with Shaka's sentiment on Emotional Players 100%!

For the record. Seems more relevant now.

[somestrangeflea]

But then Flea, the recipient of the random vote, comes along and questions that logic. But in no way do I see how scum would benefit from such a reaction. Nor do I see ANY rationale behind the assertion that this is the move that a scum who was trying to look town would make. Just the opposite.

I expect scum to try very hard not to do anything that might get flagged at all.

Put simply I personally would have been more likely to do what AlyG did if I was town than if I was scum.

I agree with the bolded point entirely. However, the way I see it, AlyG was trying to not get flagged by acting similarly to everyone else by random voting. Yes, AlyG was trying to do something that wouldn't get flagged in any way, but I thought that he had simply failed at that.

Finally, I notice that Flea has a tendency to OMGUS. He voted for AlyG after AlyG randomly voted for him and has just voted for me after I made this case of suspicion against him. I bring this to the town's attention not as a scum tell, but to suggest you keep it in mind when assessing his motivation for any further votes. Not that they will continue being OMGUS (after reading this he'll be unlikely to do that) but because if he IS a townie, he seems to have an emotional knee jerk elements to his voting.

Quite true. I seem to have a tendancy to look harder for holes in other's arguments against me.

Looks like he's finally getting into this game again.

I'M BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!

[Prof. Guppy]

Okay, here's why I'm voting somestrangeflea

1. I still think theo is scum. That has not changed.
2. He seems to want to derail the bandwagon on flea, that suggests he an flea are in concort w/ each other.
3. Flea has been lurking on purpose. I've heard that is a big scumtell.
4. He's leaving his vote on AlyG, and I'm not sure why. I don't have a read on AlyG, but I'm guessing he's town.
5. Flea is currently voting on Cicero, who I think is town. That smells of scum to me.

I wasn't feeling the flea wagon at first, but then I began to question why theo was defending him. The conclusion I came to was that they must be scumbuddies. The reason I'm voting for flea and not theo is because he's more likely to get lynched right now. Call it what you will, I call it playing the field.