Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!

[vollkan]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #5

Flameaxe[3](Dr. Blackstrike, Oman, vollkan)
tyhess[2](Trojan Horse, curiouskarmadog)
Dr. Blackstrike[1](Mastermind of Sin)

Not Voting[6](ac1983fan, theopor_COD, pwayne66, Flameaxe, Rump-Wat, tyhess)

I'll try to kickstart this:

Rump explaining

Mostly because he seemed to misinterpret BS's post to, as vollkan said, legitimize his post . However, looking back, I can understand how anyone would misinterpret that.

This doesn't explain anything really.
The reasons in brief given by me were:

1) Making a serious vote for BS on the basis of BS being 'culty'. A nonsensical justification (and possibly a freudian one)
2) Justifying the vote on the basis of pressure and discussion. BS was already talking and discussion was already happening
3) Misrepresenting the case for lynching claimed vanillas, presumably to legitimise his vote on BS

Fine, you think 3) is possibly understandable; but what about the rest of these?

Also, Tyhess respond to CKD and Pwayne.

[Oman]

Good kickstart. I'm thinking Flameaxe and Rump? Onyl a possibility at this point.

[Rump-Wat]

I'm not going to be here untill thursday; my internet is broken.

[tyhess]

I'm going to switch up the order of the questions a little bit.....

How does his posts seem pro-scum?

His first few posts were about how the vanilla townies should give themselves up so that they did not get recruited into the cult. To me, this was very proscum, and most have agreed with me.....

What parts did you agree with in reference to Dr. BS's posts (or were valid)?


and a new one, if you think his posts seem pro-scum, why did you unvote?

The reason I unvoted is because of the explanations that have been given for Doctor. He (and others) have explained how that first post could be seen as not necessarily protown, but not as proscum as I thought it was. If I see anything else by Doctor that I think is proscum, obviously I'll go right back to voting for him......

[curiouskarmadog]

..and what parts of his post did you think were valid? (think you missed that one again).

[tyhess]

I misinterpreted what he meant. What he said seemed pro scum, but others have convinced me they were suppose to be pro town, but came out wrong. ( I'm probably confusing you because I'm confusing myself right now). There wasn't any one thing that convinced me he was pro town, it was when his theory was explained by him and others as pro town that I decided to switch because I now saw what he originally meant. If I remember right, other people did the same thing....

I'm still going to be watching him closely, but I will keep my vote off of him until I think the times right.....

[Trojan Horse]

Still running the Ph.D. gauntlet. Still have a few days to go. I apologize for my lack of posting.

I looked at tyhess's latest posts. Still looks newbish, but not so scummy anymore. I'm satisfied with his answers for now.

Unvote tyhess

Gonna take a good look at flameaxe's posts next. If I agree with the bandwagon, I'll jump on; otherwise, I'll be back to square one.

[theopor_COD]

Okay let's get something done, I've pretty much contributed jack shit so far, so it's about time I did.

First page looks same old pointless stuff. Dr.B's vote on Tyhess seems like's he's looking for any old reason to sling on votes, I presume however it's still more random jokey. The edit post issue crops up - until its' pointed it's in his sig.

Blackstrike in 28 looks to promote discussion = good. However WTF!

I would say that in this game, a townie lynch is almost as good as a scum lynch.

I would say a better plan is to catch the cult not lynch townies!

a) How much of an effect would it have on balance if the cult leader was the day one lynch?
b) How many townies are likely in the game? There need to be enough to give the cult a chance along with power roles to help us get the cult/mafia.

I also think it's likely we have a vig, to help catch cultists.

Therefore:

I think that townies should try get killed by the mafia. It hurts the cult.

a) It would be damn good to get rid of the cult. Sod balance.
b) Either 5, 6 OR 7. Why do we want to give the cult a chance? Cult is as bad as scum if not worse.

Christ man I wonder what others make of this post. I'm reading and making notes chronologically so my thoughts will appear before I've read others.

Curious poses possibility he's the jester. pwanye echoes my thoughts on Blackstrike "odd".

Plus, remember that even if the vanilla lynches hurt the cult, they help the mafia. There are two enemies we need to consider.

Excatly. Seems the Doctor's happy to let that one slide. Liking Volkan, Curious likewise, Flameaxe votes Dr.B stressing everything appears to be from a cultish point of view, I'd say he looks more pro-mafia but meh.

Interesting that pwayne sticks up for Dr.B somewhat

I don't agree with using pressure to disuade conversation. This type of game is new to most of us. We ought to encourage all the discussion and sharing of ideas we can prior to the game really starting. If Dr. BS has a point I want to hear it, not discourage him by using bully tactics.

I happen to like pressure votes and bullying tactics, if it makes scum slip up great huh, you don't?

Dr.B's vote on Flameaxe seems more OMGUS than anything.

Trojan signs in, seems reasonable, I still think we should be looking towards catching scummy players aka Dr.B at this point. 52/53 strikes me however as he's looking to create pressure on MoS for lurking when as I pointed out I was pretty much doing the same thing. Tyhess votes Dr calls him weird and then he wants to edit posts.

Continued defence of the Dr from pwayne

I am failing to follow the logic behind the Dr. Blackstrike bandwagon. Some think he is too culty and some think he is too scummy. Some did so in order to stimulate discussion despite the fact that the doc seems to be talking alright without stimulation.

Trojan and Tyhess seem wishy washy over Blackstrike, maybe the Dr's too much of an easy target here, best keep an eye on both. Wishy Washy, lack of curiousity is scummy. Rump-Wat says he'll re-read I wonder if he does.


Not understanding the votes for Flameaxe, he's giving me a decent vibe, i agree lynching vanilla's is not good period. However thing here is the vanilla townies should be good enough not to have to claim, i.e not be in danger of being lynched. Flame has four votes hmm . . . I find myself agreeing with MoS's first post. Trojan still seems very un-curious in 89. ac1983 - comments that Dr.B is pro-town but flawed, why not scummy but flawed? (I'm sick of flawed players escaping due to stupidity, he's just as much chance of being scum as the rest of us)

Just for the record, my vote on Flameaxe was and is totally random.

Does this not strike anyone as odd with the bandwagon on him? Seems he's okay with it.

Oh great here comes the wonderful reasoning.

Well, I didn't unvote because he did seem kind of suspicious. But, he doesn't seem so suspicious now.

Unvote: Flameaxe

Tell me Rump who do you find scummy now then?

acfan I'd also like more from you asweell, other than Rump's seems kinda scummy.

Several posts relating to newbs, Curious still after response to his questions, valid. Avoidance of questions = scummy. Tyhess does finally in 128.


Ok to finish early good list - Flameaxe, Curious, Volkan. Not really any vibe - MoS, Oman, ac1983fan, Trojan Horse. Not liking a lot probably due to newbishness/scummyness - RumpWat, Tyhess. Not liking even less - pwayne66, Dr.B.

Vote Pwayne66

Mainly because he jumped to the Doctor's defence - I can see scum doing this if Doctor's town - he was incredibly scummy first three or so pages and doesn't want us to assert pressure and bullying tactics to catch scum - I see that as very anti-town whatever the method of game. Seperately I've seen a lot of scum do them list things, ppl think they look great, so scum do the odd one liners to impress. Anyways all for now.

[Oman]

I don't like that vote on Pwayne at all. I think the defence of a play whos alignment is unknown should not factor into the concept at all. We have three factions here, only one of them knows who the others in their faction are (there is only one cultist now, scum know eachother). I don't like the idea of Pwayne being scum because BS looks scummy, but you say Pwayne is scummy is BS is town as well...hmmm.

I don't like it really.

[pwayne66]

Mainly because he jumped to the Doctor's defence - I can see scum doing this if Doctor's town - he was incredibly scummy first three or so pages and doesn't want us to assert pressure and bullying tactics to catch scum - I see that as very anti-town whatever the method of game. Seperately I've seen a lot of scum do them list things, ppl think they look great, so scum do the odd one liners to impress. Anyways all for now.

...well at least its something. Of course I explained that I thought we ought to back off with the pressure and "gotcha" BS so that we can determine what is and isn't scummy before we start throwing the phrase around willy nilly and inducing hysteria when nobody has a clue what the hell they are talking about. It's my belief that hysteria, coupled with a disorganized town benefits scum. Do you disagree?

As far as my defense of the doctor goes. I don't give a rodents rear end about the doctor himself. I think I made it clear that my defense was of an open conversation and strategy session prior to "game on". I guess that I did not make that clear, though I don't see how I could have expressed that any better.

[Trojan Horse]

So theo, you're basically saying pwayne is scum because he defended the Doctor, and whether the Doctor is scum or not, defending him is scummy? *shakes head*

If I had to vote one of your top two picks, theo (and I'm not sure I'd vote for either), I'd vote for the Doctor. At least he did something scummy: suggesting a strategy which wouldn't help the town. I haven't seen anything bad from pwayne yet.

[theopor_COD]

I guess I've different opinions to the rest of you eh.

I don't like pwayne more for his suggestion to not use pressure votes and bully players etc. Plus his recent list doesn't sit too well with me. Therefore Trojan don't misrepresent me, at least I've laid out my opinions instead of sitting on the fence.

Oman he has 1 vote on Page 6 seems a slight over-reaction on your part? I could see scum defend a townie who's acting pretty suspiciously as Blackstrike was . .
or of course Blackstrike could well be an odd townie, odd mafia, odd cult and pwayne is naturally more defensive than other players. We haven't any knowledge as too Dr.B's alignment so in theory it's all wild speculation.

Pwanye I agree in essence that a disorganised town favours the scum but I don't think we should abandon good old scum hunting tactics, such as applying pressure and what not.

[Oman]

The thing about Pwayne is that he seems to play a defensive game (evident of his lack of support in pressure votes) so I'm not supprised he's defensive.

Also, I didn't vote you or even FoS you, so I would not call it an overreaction in any way.

[vollkan]

Mainly because he jumped to the Doctor's defence - I can see scum doing this if Doctor's town - he was incredibly scummy first three or so pages and doesn't want us to assert pressure and bullying tactics to catch scum - I see that as very anti-town whatever the method of game. Seperately I've seen a lot of scum do them list things, ppl think they look great, so scum do the odd one liners to impress. Anyways all for now.

Well, I also said that BS looked like he had simply made an "honest mistake" and Oman said that

I think our good doctor has tried (and phailed!) to come up with a good plan.

So, in terms of "defending" BS, Pwayne is hardly singular.

Something else,

Mainly because he jumped to the Doctor's defence

and now,

I don't like pwayne more for his suggestion to not use pressure votes and bully players etc. Plus his recent list doesn't sit too well with me.

Subtle shift. People criticise you for voting on the basis of Pwayne defending BS, so you shift you main reason to being the opposition to bullying, which was a minor factor from before.

Does this mean that your basis for suspecting Pwayne is that he is opposed to bullying tactics? If so, why does that make him more likely to be scum? I personally have no problem with bullying tactics, but I have encountered many players that oppose them.

[theopor_COD]

It's more the tone of your post that I find an over-reaction.

[Oman]

Right...the tone.

Vote Theo

[Oman]

oops

Unvote Vote Theo

[vollkan]

It's more the tone of your post that I find an over-reaction.

The post, I presume:

I don't like that vote on Pwayne at all. I think the defence of a play whos alignment is unknown should not factor into the concept at all. We have three factions here, only one of them knows who the others in their faction are (there is only one cultist now, scum know eachother). I don't like the idea of Pwayne being scum because BS looks scummy, but you say Pwayne is scummy is BS is town as well...hmmm.

I don't like it really.

I don't see any "tone" beyond a slight hint of Oman being suspicious of you. Given the basis for your vote, however, I think that is wholly reasonable.

FoS: Theo

[theopor_COD]

Ok looking back the tone doesn't seem all that bad, it did originally jump out at me that Oman commented on nothinge else and I found it puzzling that he (Oman) doesn't express any outright suspicion on me, it's more a defence of Pwanye if that makes sense - probably not. I guess if anything I over-reacted to Oman's original post

Does this mean that your basis for suspecting Pwayne is that he is opposed to bullying tactics? If so, why does that make him more likely to be scum?

I've got my eye on pwayne because I found him defending Blackstrike more than anyone, asking Curious/Flame in 45 to not bully him, not use pressure votes to extract information. As far as pwayne not being the only one to defend Blackstrike again I'm being overly attacking towards him, I will say he was more defensive than anyone else but Oman, Volkan do both show support for him only after Tyhess votes Blackstrike for acting oddly. Oman then shows support, Trojan follows up straight after - more a following kinda post - similar to his one above, Volkan you then do so.

Hence perhaps I'm being severly misguided on Pwayne's defensive nature, defensive players could just as likely be town/scum and without having any prior knowledge of meta-gaming of Pwayne

unvote

- after all I only re-read properly a couple of hours ago.

[Oman]

Yeah, nice backpedaling, my vote stands.

[vollkan]

Ok looking back the tone doesn't seem all that bad, it did originally jump out at me that Oman commented on nothinge else and I found it puzzling that he (Oman) doesn't express any outright suspicion on me, it's more a defence of Pwanye if that makes sense - probably not. I guess if anything I over-reacted to Oman's original post

Wait, hang on. You accused him over-reaction but now you are saying you were actually puzzled he did not suspect you outright?

And no, don't try to turn this into a game of people defending Pwayne, the issue is people attacking your vote.

I've got my eye on pwayne because I found him defending Blackstrike more than anyone, asking Curious/Flame in 45 to not bully him, not use pressure votes to extract information.

Way to go and dodge the shifting I just pointed out:
[quote="Vollkan]
Something else,

Mainly because he jumped to the Doctor's defence

and now,

I don't like pwayne more for his suggestion to not use pressure votes and bully players etc. Plus his recent list doesn't sit too well with me.

Subtle shift. People criticise you for voting on the basis of Pwayne defending BS, so you shift you main reason to being the opposition to bullying, which was a minor factor from before.
[/quote]

Now what you have just done is to combine them all together as salient factors, but it is yet another shift from your previous positions.

As far as pwayne not being the only one to defend Blackstrike again I'm being overly attacking towards him, I will say he was more defensive than anyone else but Oman, Volkan do both show support for him only after Tyhess votes Blackstrike for acting oddly. Oman then shows support, Trojan follows up straight after - more a following kinda post - similar to his one above, Volkan you then do so.

I find it interesting that you represent several people taking a common position (which happens to be against your view or your vote) as "following".

Hence perhaps I'm being severly misguided on Pwayne's defensive nature, defensive players could just as likely be town/scum and without having any prior knowledge of meta-gaming of Pwayne unvote - after all I only re-read properly a couple of hours ago.

I don't see why you only recently re-reading affects your ability to vote for sensible reasons.

For that very slippery response, you've been upgraded to first class:

Unvote, Vote: Theo

[Dr. Blackstrike]

Theo, not to sound like a broken record, but that doesn't make sense.

Pwayne's (sorry if I spelled that wrong) not the only one who defended me, why are you singling him out? And you've contridicted yourself... hmm...

FoS: Theo.

Ok to finish early good list - Flameaxe, Curious, Volkan. Not really any vibe - MoS, Oman, ac1983fan, Trojan Horse. Not liking a lot probably due to newbishness/scummyness - RumpWat, Tyhess. Not liking even less - pwayne66, Dr.B.

Does anyone else see the odd thing I notice about this list?

-Doc "scum like easy lynch targets... like me" Blackstrike

[vollkan]

[quote"BS"]

Ok to finish early good list - Flameaxe, Curious, Volkan. Not really any vibe - MoS, Oman, ac1983fan, Trojan Horse. Not liking a lot probably due to newbishness/scummyness - RumpWat, Tyhess. Not liking even less - pwayne66, Dr.B.

Does anyone else see the odd thing I notice about this list?
[/quote]

The fact that Theo says he doesn't like one group due to "scummyness" but then lists Pwayne and BS as "even less" initially looked a little odd to me, but not after I thought about it. It looks like he is just saying that you two are the top of his suspect list.

Unless, as I suspect, you are talking about something else.

[Oman]

What I don't like is the very scumlike (In my opinion anyway) of a psuedo-conviction. He says

Not liking a lot probably due to newbishness/scummyness

The sort of "These guys are scummy, but maybe newbs, but scummy too." Its very fence sitting.

Theo: Do you feel Rump and Tyhess are scummy because of alignment or because of experience?

[pwayne66]

I believe that a clarification is in order... I have nothing against pressure voting and bullying to find scum if it is done correctly. I have stated (and then again) that the only thing I opposed was the way it was used.

I don't agree with using pressure to disuade conversation. This type of game is new to most of us. We ought to encourage all the discussion and sharing of ideas we can prior to the game really starting. If Dr. BS has a point I want to hear it, not discourage him by using bully tactics.

What's more, alot of time that bullly tactics are employeed, they are used in lieu of solid logic. That puts the town in a situation where a perfectly innocent townie thinking he is going to break the game open, tries to pressure somebody over something stupid. Somebody calls him out for his bad logic and he defends his stance. In the end this perfectly innocent townie begins to look like scum.

Unfortunatley, he has invested his soul and his manhood into bullying player X and doesn't back down so that he can save face. What is good for the town and what is bad for the town flies out the window. He is going to win himself a pissing contest. Maybe he even votes for himself to prove a point... Who hasn't seen this scenerio time and time again. This doesn't help the town, this hurts the town.