California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Deadline:

Approximately 5 hours from this post.

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Cubsfan4ever: 6 (Dragon Phoenix, foolinc, LoudmouthLee, Mgm, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha)
LoudmouthLee: 5 (Cubsfan4ever, Dani Banani/Mastermind of Sin, IH/Oman, Skruffs, xyzzy)
Adele: 1 (Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels)
Dragon Phoenix: 1 (Adele)
foolinc: 1 (Tamuz/Thestatusquo)
IH/Oman: 1 (logicticus)
Skruffs: 1 (VitaminR)
xyzzy: 1 (Zindaras)

Current Condorcet Winner:

Cubsfan4ever

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

Important Note:

When compiling Condorcet lists, I am treating unvotes as a complete reset of the list. If you wish to retain the same (or similar) list when unvoting or changing your vote, please post another copy of the list.

Please double-check your lists for errors, particularly regarding replacements. If a player occurs more than once on a list, only the first listing is accepted. If a player does not occur on a list, that player is put at the end of the list.

[LoudmouthLee]

I can't read Xyzzy's posts from work. After reading Glork's PBPA, I'm willing to shake things up. I mean, one extra pairwise vote helps, right?

Unvote

Xyzzy,

Vote: Cubsfan

, MGM, Zindaras, Skruffs, Adele, Thesp, Gaspar [foolinc, pooky, tally, Tamuz, IH, Logictius, Dani Banani ], [DP, VitR], CES, BattleMage / Jeep

[Battle Mage]

(Glork.)

Oh, okay. Yeah, I just misunderstood the point you were trying to make. I'm still curious/confused as to why you unvoted and advocated a No Lynch to begin with.

I wasnt advocating a No-Lynch. I was merely advocating 'intentionally not getting a majority'. Its pretty hard for me to explain what i mean on this, so i can well understand why you got confused.
BM

[LoudmouthLee]

[A] 4 votes (20.0%)

11 votes (55.0%)
[NP] 5 votes (25.0%)

In 4 places, people have Xyzzy over Cubsfan. Now 5. 11 people have Cubs over Xyzzy. Now 10.

This is an uphill battle to say the least.

In other words, for Xyzzy to be the new condorcet winner, 3 people must move Xyzzy ahead of Cubsfan.

[Battle Mage]

thats all well and good LML, but why the hell would we want to lynch Xyzzy over Cubs? rofl.

[LoudmouthLee]

thats all well and good LML, but why the hell would we want to lynch Xyzzy over Cubs? rofl.

God, you're awful.

Is there anyone you WANT to lynch?

[LoudmouthLee]

activity much?

There's really only one thing that strikes me so far this game.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.) Now, I find people can "fake" random.org or "dicerolls" as such. How did you handle repeat rolls? Especially when you had only 2 or 3 names left? Did you keep on rolling? over and over again? How long did this process take you?

I am questioning if your random votes were truly arbitrary.

Wow, I feel pretty much the opposite. What's the point of truly random votes, and especially of proven random votes? The accusation of divestment of responsibility is something I very much agree with. Prior to this trend of dice-tags (even if this is an imaginary time period), a "random" vote meant "vote that I am claiming is random, but could possibly be merely arbitrary, or even- ooh! - malicious". When a few of these stacked up on someone, the question as to whether there are scumzars on the wagon, either to harm or (yay wifom) clear someone is a kickstart for discussion.

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

For wilfully ignoring this and saying instead that people should just tick the "good, safe townie" boxes rather than do anything productive... yeah.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Mastermind of Sin.

I never liked this. I feel that her vote on me was a policy vote and had nothing to do with any of my posts. She has left her vote on me since then.

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

Are you saying that you agree with me? That was the point that I was making exactly. I don't understand your reason for voting me.

My belief: dice-tags and proven-random votes have no place, while arbitrary and possibly-random votes have a place.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.)

Your belief: the opposite (this may simply be my delusion of what you're saying; if so, please clarify).

I've decided to coin a term today.
Metascummy (Adj)
definition: behaviour that is unhelpful to the town but defended as supposedly unscummy due to the user's universal use of the tactic.

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

Once more: my problem isn't that MoS didn't use the dice tags - he couldn't. It's not that he did - he didn't. It's that he pseudo-used it, and tried to "prove" that he had (see his later explanation and overuse of the term "retarded" for further details).

Whereas I feel like I was ATTACKING MoS for it, not defending him. I call bullpoop.

I was

attacking

him for being metascummy. I questioned the validity of his dicerolls.

God, Adele. Please read those posts again.

Then we

do

disagree. Not that MoS is weird - we seem to agree there - but on whether dice tags are good or bad. I maintain that they are bad (that is, they might have a place in-game, but not in the random-voting stage). You appear to prefer them to people saying they used random.org - and I personally would rather people switched to saying "arb vote" than maintain any pretence of or (worse)

actual

randomness in their initial vote.

but thank you for using "metascummy"

Tag fixed. - Mod

But here, She basically says we disagree on the use of dicetags.. and we obviously DO NOT have dicetags in this game.

So, why is she voting for me again? It's manufactured.. since there was a rather ignorant growing bandwagon on me.

LML's not being given any credits here, Skruffs - he's actually having a relatively tough time of things according to the Votecount. I can say at least one of those votes was not placed with any kind of eye to lynching, but nontheless; he's not feeling very comfortable right now.

Whereas I, who've probably not contributed much of anything, seem to be mostly slightly trusted. Things are random at this stage - just try to play tight and things'll even out.

See what I did in that last paragraph there, talking you you like a newbie?
Yeah, that was fun.

And seriously, come the weekend I'll be able to contribute as much as I've been wanting to so far (downside of having a "real" job).

This feels like a blantant coaching post and seems scummy to me. It's not even if skrffs is scum or not. I could make cases regardless of Skruff's alignment that Adele is scum posting as such.

-Coaching or Mafia Buddying Up.

Towards the end is a lot of handshake posts (Hey, I agree with you.. let's have lunch)

I guess I would be very thrilled with an Adele lynch.

[Mgm]

Mgm:

Have you read the links in the first post? Have you read them carefully? Why on earth did you ask "what are Dantes"?

I can be short about that. No I didn't read those links carefully. I only skimmed the Wikipedia one to check for characters regarding my thoughts on Iocane and to learn about my own character. I hang my head in shame.

[Mgm]

Posting a new list as the mod asked in his latest post.

Unvote;
Vote: Cubsfan4ever,

Logicticus, xyzzy, Skruffs, VitaminR, [Tamuz/Thestatusquo, Oman/IH, Adele, Thesp, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear, Dani Banani/Mastermind of Sin, foolinc], Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels, No lynch, Jeep/BM, LoudmouthLee, [Zindaras, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix], Mgm.

[foolinc]

Looks like I'm an idoit and my vote wasn'ts valid since I didn't bold Cubs. Here we go again.

unvote; Vote: Cubsfan4ever,

Skruffs, Dani Banani, Battle Mage, [ Gaspar, LoudmouthLee, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Tamuz, xyzzy], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, logicticus, Mgm, IH, Thesp, VitaminR, Zindaras], no lynch, foolinc

[IH]

I will attempt to have a post before deadline. = \

[foolinc]

After looking over the raw data I finally figured out why I thought my list was wrong, I don't have DP on it. Here's the final list from me....hopefully.

unvote; Vote: Cubsfan4ever, Skruffs, Dani Banani, Battle Mage, [ Gaspar, LoudmouthLee, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Tamuz, xyzzy], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, Mgm, IH, Thesp, VitaminR, Zindaras], no lynch, foolinc

[foolinc]

I give up.

unvote; Vote: Cubsfan4ever,

Skruffs, Dani Banani, Battle Mage, [ Gaspar, LoudmouthLee, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha, Tamuz, xyzzy], [Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, Mgm, IH, Thesp, VitaminR, Zindaras], no lynch, foolinc

[LoudmouthLee]

I will attempt to have a post before deadline. = \

Let it be known that IH, who I believe is scummy, refused to unvote me with his post.

[logicticus]

Ill tell you what. Since BMs claim, I have not been happy with his posts.

[Zindaras]

lol calm down Zindy. I didnt say that No-Lynch is the ideal option. I'm merely trying to point out that there is no especial reason TO lynch now, assuming Cubs is who we want to die either way. I realise you may have a phobia of the words 'No-Lynch', but in this case, i really cant see what the issue is. If i come on tonight and i see that me changing my list around will make a positive difference, i will do so. Otherwise, i'm content enough to leave it how it is, assuming it is inconsequential for today.

BM

And it is your duty to make sure that the best lynch happens. It is your duty to make your suspicions clear. How consequential are our lists, really? How consequential is it to have 5 different levels of scumness/townness?

It's not. Not directly. But indirectly, opinion-wise, for future use in scum-hunting, it's all very useful. By unvoting, you reset your entire list, thereby indicating a complete indifference for who dies.

[Adele]

activity much?

There's really only one thing that strikes me so far this game.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.) Now, I find people can "fake" random.org or "dicerolls" as such. How did you handle repeat rolls? Especially when you had only 2 or 3 names left? Did you keep on rolling? over and over again? How long did this process take you?

I am questioning if your random votes were truly arbitrary.

Wow, I feel pretty much the opposite. What's the point of truly random votes, and especially of proven random votes? The accusation of divestment of responsibility is something I very much agree with. Prior to this trend of dice-tags (even if this is an imaginary time period), a "random" vote meant "vote that I am claiming is random, but could possibly be merely arbitrary, or even- ooh! - malicious". When a few of these stacked up on someone, the question as to whether there are scumzars on the wagon, either to harm or (yay wifom) clear someone is a kickstart for discussion.

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

For wilfully ignoring this and saying instead that people should just tick the "good, safe townie" boxes rather than do anything productive... yeah.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Mastermind of Sin.

I never liked this. I feel that her vote on me was a policy vote and had nothing to do with any of my posts. She has left her vote on me since then.

Um. Remember when I tried to unvote you, but for some reason muffed it? Then the time I did unvote you? Check the votecount, man. I voted you for weak, semi-pointmaking reasons - People do that, early in the game. Then I unvoted you when the reasons I had for voting you fell below the threshold of acceptability of seriousness (in my eyes).

I find it

shocking

that you accuse me of not unvoting you when the latest votecount names Cubsfan4ever, Dani Banani/Mastermind of Sin, IH/Oman, Skruffs and xyzzy as your voters. It's right there!

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

Are you saying that you agree with me? That was the point that I was making exactly. I don't understand your reason for voting me.

My belief: dice-tags and proven-random votes have no place, while arbitrary and possibly-random votes have a place.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.)

Your belief: the opposite (this may simply be my delusion of what you're saying; if so, please clarify).

I've decided to coin a term today.
Metascummy (Adj)
definition: behaviour that is unhelpful to the town but defended as supposedly unscummy due to the user's universal use of the tactic.

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

Once more: my problem isn't that MoS didn't use the dice tags - he couldn't. It's not that he did - he didn't. It's that he pseudo-used it, and tried to "prove" that he had (see his later explanation and overuse of the term "retarded" for further details).

Whereas I feel like I was ATTACKING MoS for it, not defending him. I call bullpoop.

I thought you were defending him. Whether you were ambiguous or I grossly misinterpreted, who cares? The whole talk's been done to death. We've talked all that out.

You won

.

I was

attacking

him for being metascummy. I questioned the validity of his dicerolls.

God, Adele. Please read those posts again.

Then we

do

disagree. Not that MoS is weird - we seem to agree there - but on whether dice tags are good or bad. I maintain that they are bad (that is, they might have a place in-game, but not in the random-voting stage). You appear to prefer them to people saying they used random.org - and I personally would rather people switched to saying "arb vote" than maintain any pretence of or (worse)

actual

randomness in their initial vote.

but thank you for using "metascummy"

Tag fixed. - Mod

But here, She basically says we disagree on the use of dicetags.. and we obviously DO NOT have dicetags in this game.

Yes, I know.

So, why is she voting for me again? It's manufactured.. since there was a rather ignorant growing bandwagon on me.

Then why did I unvote you? Is this entire post founded on an untrue premise?

LML's not being given any credits here, Skruffs - he's actually having a relatively tough time of things according to the Votecount. I can say at least one of those votes was not placed with any kind of eye to lynching, but nontheless; he's not feeling very comfortable right now.

Whereas I, who've probably not contributed much of anything, seem to be mostly slightly trusted. Things are random at this stage - just try to play tight and things'll even out.

See what I did in that last paragraph there, talking you you like a newbie?
Yeah, that was fun.

And seriously, come the weekend I'll be able to contribute as much as I've been wanting to so far (downside of having a "real" job).

This feels like a blantant coaching post and seems scummy to me. It's not even if skrffs is scum or not. I could make cases regardless of Skruff's alignment that Adele is scum posting as such.

I was being smug and condescending. It was fun. I regret nothing. If it seems inappropriate for me to suggest to someone that they play tight, then I'm sorry. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion in hand.


The CPU quota thing pulled on me and I'm about to run out of time at this cafe. Sorry there's not more & for the errors in this post. It was not intentional

Vote: Cubsfan4ever

Tag fixed. - Mod

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Well MGM, Google is highly overrated.

Hanging your head in shame is certainly not enough penance.

I recommend ritual seppuku in order to avoid bringing further shame upon your family and your country.

[Mgm]

My family has nothing to do with it and if you dare shame my country, you can bet I will call upon Zindaras and CES to make you pay for it.

OMGUS FOS: Pooky

[Skruffs]

Okay, what does a searching townie DO? Is it like a searching mason? Or is he still a townie? or.. what?

for the record, i think anything can happen if town is determined. The only reason i am unvoting lml is because his claim can help the town potentially later on.

I personally think BM's posts are vastly better than jeeps was.

Unvote

Vote : Xyzzy

[cubs, dp, pooky, mgm, foolinc], [no lynch] [everyone else] [battle mage]

[Battle Mage]

thats all well and good LML, but why the hell would we want to lynch Xyzzy over Cubs? rofl.

God, you're awful.

Is there anyone you WANT to lynch?

lol had you been reading the game, you wouldnt have asked such a silly question.

@Logicticus, Zindy-I'll tell you what. Lets discuss this tomorrow. Ya know, so i can prove my innocence and make you both eat your words.

[Mr. Grey]

Deadline:

Approximately 1 hour from this post.

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Cubsfan4ever: 7 (Adele, Dragon Phoenix, foolinc, LoudmouthLee, Mgm, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha)
LoudmouthLee: 4 (Cubsfan4ever, Dani Banani/Mastermind of Sin, IH/Oman, xyzzy)
xyzzy: 2 (Skruffs, Zindaras)
Adele: 1 (Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels)
foolinc: 1 (Tamuz/Thestatusquo)
IH/Oman: 1 (logicticus)
Skruffs: 1 (VitaminR)

Current Condorcet Winner:

Cubsfan4ever

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

Important Note:

When compiling Condorcet lists, I am treating unvotes as a complete reset of the list. If you wish to retain the same (or similar) list when unvoting or changing your vote, please post another copy of the list.

Please double-check your lists for errors, particularly regarding replacements. If a player occurs more than once on a list, only the first listing is accepted. If a player does not occur on a list, that player is put at the end of the list.

[Zindaras]

I think Vitamin and DP would also like to have a say in that, Mgm.

It's a matter of time until we Dutchies outnumber the rest. >.>

As far as xyzzy goes:

This is really his first post of note. This entire analysis of Mgm is based on little irrelevant things he twists into something resembling scummy. It all culminates in this:

To make it clear: I don't particularly like using Concordet voting this early in the game when everything is still too hazy, so I'll do things the old fashioned way.

Translation: I on't want to take advantage of the tools I've been given. I don't want other people taking advantage of them, either.

This is a fairly large misrepresentation, generalizing "I'll do things the old fashioned way" into "Nobody should use them".

His entire PbPA on Mgm is pretty much pulled out of thin air.

Wait, how was I misrepresenting Mgm AT ALL? I took what he said and I sais what it sounded like. The fact that he's good at not looking scummy doesn't mean that when someone says he's scum it means he isn't.

I'm pretty sure I made over 9000 grammatical errors in that sentence. Oh well, as least everything in this post is speled right.

I can't misrepresent people if I'm just saying what I think they said!

Very, very, very

[...]

very, very wrong. Good reviews stick with people; if I think someone's scum then 20 people say he

must be

town, then I'm going to agree with them because I'm inclined to believe townies and among that many people most will be townies (unless it's that 200 player game?).

Essentially a very weak point. Thesp isn't 20 people, last time I checked.

Lee, please elaborate on the changes in your Condorcet lists:

You go from this:

Vote: MoS, Adele, Zinadras, Scruffs, [Jeep, MGM, Xyzzy]

To this:

Unvote, Vote: Scruffs, MoS, Zindaras, MGM, PWS, Xyzzy

Without any real explanation, with no posts in between.

If he changed it in immediately the next post, then it would be scummy, but without agreement on opinions, then there'll never be a lynch, unless by some amazing coincidence a majority of players agree at the very beginning.

This point is also very weak. I ask Lee to elaborate on his changes, and xyzzy's counterpoint is that Lee is allowed to change his list.

"And if

I've

done it, it must not be scummy!"

Again, another weak one. If I do something as town, a lot, and then I see someone else do the exact same thing, it is quite possible to generalize your own situation and make it into a general rule. It's not a full-proof thing, but it's still not much of a thing. His response to Cessy regarding this stuff is also weak.

And now his final list:

Hmm... I guess this is my final list.

Vote: LML

, PWS, Mgm, Skruffs, [everyone else], no lynch, xyzzy

Note how LML is on top, but (unless my searching methods are really failing me)

there is no mention of Lee in any of his other posts

. PWS/Gaspar, his second target? Pretty much the same. Clear bandwagon-hopper.

[Zindaras]

thats all well and good LML, but why the hell would we want to lynch Xyzzy over Cubs? rofl.

God, you're awful.

Is there anyone you WANT to lynch?

lol had you been reading the game, you wouldnt have asked such a silly question.

Your Condorcet list has no preference between 19 of the 20 players.

This expresses an

indifference

between those 19 players. Which means, essentially, that you

don't care who gets lynched, as long as it's not you

.

@Logicticus, Zindy-I'll tell you what. Lets discuss this tomorrow. Ya know, so i can prove my innocence and make you both eat your words.

For one, proving your ability will

not

prove your alignment. It won't.


No, really, it won't.

For two, even

if

you are proven innocent, that does not necessarily mean you are right.

[Battle Mage]

thats completely ridiculous Zindy. Its obvious who is going to get lynched. My vote wont change that either way. You can try your hardest to construe my actions as bad in any way you want-the fact is, my opinions have been made perfectly clear, and your incessant ravings about this are nonsensical.

I'd say that me proving my role would go some way to proving my innocence. I've never seen scum with this role before at least.
And yes, whilst proving my innocence does not prove me right as such, it does categorically prove you WRONG in your suspicions of me.

BM

thats all well and good LML, but why the hell would we want to lynch Xyzzy over Cubs? rofl.

God, you're awful.

Is there anyone you WANT to lynch?

lol had you been reading the game, you wouldnt have asked such a silly question.

Your Condorcet list has no preference between 19 of the 20 players.

This expresses an

indifference

between those 19 players. Which means, essentially, that you

don't care who gets lynched, as long as it's not you

.

@Logicticus, Zindy-I'll tell you what. Lets discuss this tomorrow. Ya know, so i can prove my innocence and make you both eat your words.

For one, proving your ability will

not

prove your alignment. It won't.


No, really, it won't.

For two, even

if

you are proven innocent, that does not necessarily mean you are right.