Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Thok]

OMG, it was just a slip I used the wrong word.

OMG, why should I believe you?

But I do at least agree with Skruffs that I really don't like how Thok keeps bringing this up and bringing this up....

Curious, I'm not sure your comment is a correct interpretation is what Skruffs is saying at all.

I'm also curious about how much you believe I should have pushed this at all, since you claim I'm pushing this too much. Should I have completely ignored your use of the word bus? Should I have not explained why I wanted to look at your use of the word bus? Should I have not explained why the argument works even if I'm town? Or am I just not allowed to attack you at all if I see you drop what I think is a scum tell?

[Elias_the_thief]

I was going to ask the same question. We really didnt push the "slip" that hard at all. It was only when you attacked us for mentioning it that we went into depth.

As a sidenote, this is my 1111st game post.

[Setael]

OK, and I want to see how she catches up, her not catching up before making the comments was a bit scummy imo.

Wow. In the future I’ll be sure to read all 55 pages and then re-read so that I can formulate a post before I ever make a comment – if that means the players wait for a post from me for 3 weeks, so be it.

@Thok... I find these last few pages very insightful, since it's the first time you aren't being given a free ride as obvTown.

So me finding you a higher suspect makes it so that I need to die?

It seems to me that now that someone besides me has vocalized suspicion of Thok, he's acting much differently than he was when everyone was trusting him so completely. He did seem to push awfully hard on a Guardian wagon, and only removed his vote once Vitr opposed it. He said it was to let the rest of us respond, but did you really think two of us were going to vote for him out of the blue? I think it's much more likely that after vitr's post you realized that it looked scummy and decided to back off.

If Thok was scum, it'd be a much more likely scenario he was trying to defend a townie (me) so when I come up, and Guardian's reasons are proven to be really really trivial, then Thok would come up in a better light.

This I can see. I haven't read Guardian's reasons yet, but it does seem more likely that scumThok would defend IHTown rather than IHScum.

In other news

vote: Guardian

Let's get this going.

That's your reason for voting? To "get this thing going?" I'm undecided about Guardian, but I certainly wouldn't vote him this late in the game just to get the wagon moving.

Curious. If I'm scum, then why did I jump off my Setael/Omanus case (that I had been pushing all day) to start going after you?

I know this question was meant for Guardian, but since it's about me I think I have a right to respond.

My guess is because I was drawing attention to the fact that maybe you weren't as perfectly pro-Town as everyone thought. You were able to perfectly distract attention away from that by starting a wagon on Guardian, but in order to do that you had to drop the case against me, at least long enough to focus on Guardian. Granted, that reason hinges on Thok coming up scum. I don't know that for sure, but I'm confident enough that I'll keep my vote on him.

[Thok]

It seems to me that now that someone besides me has vocalized suspicion of Thok, he's acting much differently than he was when everyone was trusting him so completely. He did seem to push awfully hard on a Guardian wagon, and only removed his vote once Vitr opposed it. He said it was to let the rest of us respond, but did you really think two of us were going to vote for him out of the blue? I think it's much more likely that after vitr's post you realized that it looked scummy and decided to back off.

Question: how do you think my play has been different? (Given that one of your attacks on me was not being specific enough about my comments, I think this is a valid question.)

Second question: are you ever going to say anything about my responses to your questions? Or are you just going to ignore most of them, but keep pushing at me anyways?

As for your comment, I don't think it was that likely that two people were going to vote out of the blue, but it could happen. The real thing I wanted was to hear from the people I mentioned. Skruffs, in particular, has not been participating much the last week or two, and hasn't been saying much even when asked about stuff. He has been responding quickly to me asking about his opinion, which suggests that he's been reading the game.

Curious. If I'm scum, then why did I jump off my Setael/Omanus case (that I had been pushing all day) to start going after you?

I know this question was meant for Guardian, but since it's about me I think I have a right to respond.

My guess is because I was drawing attention to the fact that maybe you weren't as perfectly pro-Town as everyone thought. You were able to perfectly distract attention away from that by starting a wagon on Guardian, but in order to do that you had to drop the case against me, at least long enough to focus on Guardian. Granted, that reason hinges on Thok coming up scum. I don't know that for sure, but I'm confident enough that I'll keep my vote on him.

You've missed the point completely. If I was scum who just wanted to push a wagon to keep from being attacked, then you were an equally valid target to be a hypothetical distraction. Heck, you would have been a safer target, as I wouldn't have had to make a fairly big change in suspicions and I had already been attacking you and I probably could have used your arguments against me as a further way to push against you.

[Guardian]

OMG, it was just a slip I used the wrong word.

OMG, why should I believe you?

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell, and if it *was* a freudian slip it would mean I am scum with you, and you know that's not true.

But I do at least agree with Skruffs that I really don't like how Thok keeps bringing this up and bringing this up....

Curious, I'm not sure your comment is a correct interpretation is what Skruffs is saying at all.

I'm also curious about how much you believe I should have pushed this at all, since you claim I'm pushing this too much. Should I have completely ignored your use of the word bus? Should I have not explained why I wanted to look at your use of the word bus? Should I have not explained why the argument works even if I'm town? Or am I just not allowed to attack you at all if I see you drop what I think is a scum tell?

You should have dropped it around the second... or third... or fourth time I told you it was just an accident.

....

[Thok]

OMG, why should I believe you?

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell, and if it *was* a freudian slip it would mean I am scum with you, and you know that's not true.[/quote]

And, gee I've explained how it could work as not a Freudian slip, but a delibarate inclusion to try and create a fake connection between us that could be noticed if I got you lynched and you came up scum. The point is that if you were lynched as scum, other people could come along, see "Look Guardian said Thok was bussing him" and use that to try to lynch me.

Heck, it could even work as a Freudian slip from my point of view if we assume that you are scum with somebody else who's currently trying to push you, and you were thinking about them bussing you rather than about me bussing you and messed up names.

You should have dropped it around the second... or third... or fourth time I told you it was just an accident.

You were already complaining about me pushing the issue too much in post 1398, which was the first time you specifically said "Oh, I used the wrong word."

[VitaminR]

I don't have the time to go into all the arguments against Guardian. Basically, his past actions gave me a pro-town vibe and I don't think the evidence against him is that strong. The slip isn't that convincing and the fact that his arguments aren't always that good doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. Also, to be honest, there is so much text in this game that I'm finding difficult to distil the essence of what people are trying to say. I simply don't have the time for it.

[Guardian]

I just realized something.

Playstyle-wise, I really need to stop overreacting to being wagoned or voted for bad reasons. I just hate when it happens and flip .

I'm lynch -2, and it isn't like I'm going to be quicklynched, especially if I'm right that there are one or two scum already on my wagon.

Calm, cool, collected Guardian from here on out... theoretically, lol.

[Guardian]

OMG, why should I believe you?

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell, and if it *was* a freudian slip it would mean I am scum with you, and you know that's not true.

And, gee I've explained how it could work as not a Freudian slip, but a delibarate inclusion to try and create a fake connection between us that could be noticed if I got you lynched and you came up scum.

....It was a slip. Nothing deliberate.

The point is that if you were lynched as scum, other people could come along, see "Look Guardian said Thok was bussing him" and use that to try to lynch me.

You said you don't like these comments.... But in terms of "if I come up scum" you have nothing to worry about. But, if I do get lynched and come up town, I'd be more than happy that people take my suspicion of you (and Tony, and IH) and run with it.

Heck, it could even work as a Freudian slip from my point of view if we assume that you are scum with somebody else who's currently trying to push you, and you were thinking about them bussing you rather than about me bussing you and messed up names.

IE, Elias? You really think I could be scum with Elias at this point? That doesn't seem consistent with what you've said previously.

You should have dropped it around the second... or third... or fourth time I told you it was just an accident.

You were already complaining about me pushing the issue too much in post 1398, which was the first time you specifically said "Oh, I used the wrong word."

You're right about this. I just thought mentioning it at all was ill conceived, I just used a wrong word. [/overreacting]

[Simenon]

Vote Count

TonyMoonshine (1)- Guardian
Setael (1)- VitaminR
Guardian (2)- Elias_the_theif, TonyMoonshine
Thok (1)- Setael

Deadline- September 19

[Setael]

Basically, his past actions gave me a pro-town vibe and I don't think the evidence against him is that strong. The slip isn't that convincing and the fact that his arguments aren't always that good doesn't necessarily mean he's scum.

I agree. Thok's case on Guardian seems kind of weak, especially if you throw the use of the word "bus" out the window, since it seemed pretty obvious he meant "wagon." Maybe Thok thought we were all sufficiently annoyed with Guardian’s lengthy and drawn out IH tirades that we’d be willing to jump onto a Guardian wagon. Apparently Tony was the only one that worked on. Elias at least seemed to have a reason of his own.

Question: how do you think my play has been different? (Given that one of your attacks on me was not being specific enough about my comments, I think this is a valid question.)

You started pushing at Guardian with an almost non-existent case. Have you done this previously in the game? If so, I missed it.

Second question: are you ever going to say anything about my responses to your questions? Or are you just going to ignore most of them, but keep pushing at me anyways?

I read your posts 872 and 1268 which turns out to be your case against Romanus/Oman. I can’t explain his actions any more than you can explain everything I pointed out about your predecessors in 1353. Because we’re not them.
Other than that, your Guardian wagon has served to keep you at the top of my scum list, with Tony holding strong at second place. I still have yet to work out why you slid under everyone's radar for so long. The ones who replied said your arguments seemed pro-Town but I guess I'm going to have to go through and find examples of this myself, since no one has bothered to provide any.

In fact...the one solid reason given by IH:

I find his [Thok's] innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

sort of dissolved once Thok started the Guardian wagon. Thok ended up doing the thing that IH pointed out would most benefit Thokscum. Please also notice that IH said "bus" here when I think he meant "wagon." Unless of course he knows for sure that both Guardian and Thok are scum, in which case he may have meant bus.

[Thok]

Basically, his past actions gave me a pro-town vibe and I don't think the evidence against him is that strong. The slip isn't that convincing and the fact that his arguments aren't always that good doesn't necessarily mean he's scum.

I agree. Thok's case on Guardian seems kind of weak, especially if you throw the use of the word "bus" out the window, since it seemed pretty obvious he meant "wagon." Maybe Thok thought we were all sufficiently annoyed with Guardian’s lengthy and drawn out IH tirades that we’d be willing to jump onto a Guardian wagon. Apparently Tony was the only one that worked on. Elias at least seemed to have a reason of his own.

Do you believe that Guardian had a good reason for attacking Elias?
Do you believe Guardian had a good reason for FOSing you for not knowing that Mustafa was dead, especially as he hadn't been interested in looking at you earlier?

If the answer to either of the above answers is no, why do feel my case against him is weak? Those were the reasons I was interested in going after him; in particular his attack on you felt a lot like his jump on MOStafa/Adel yesterday.

[Setael]

Do you believe Guardian had a good reason for FOSing you for not knowing that Mustafa was dead, especially as he hadn't been interested in looking at you earlier?

I was not surprised Guardian FOS'd me for a post in which I named as one of my prime suspects a player who is not even still in the game. Guardian had previously expressed annoyance that I hadn't read his IH arguments. I, of course, disagree with him that me not reading the entire thread in depth before posting is scummy. However, I can understand him being frustrated because of it, especially since one of the things I was procrastinating reading was his case against IH. I don't think I

deserved

a FOS for it, but I don't think it was scummy that he did it. If he would've voted me, then I probably would've read into it more like you did.

Do you believe that Guardian had a good reason for attacking Elias?

I think Elias' reaction to the modkill announcement was definitely worthy of a raised eyebrow. I am not the only one here that knows for sure that I am Town. There are three others, and I do think Elias’ reaction made it look like he was so sure about my role that he could be one of those three trying to look pro-Town. However, I can also see that Elias’ reaction may have been just as he said – he had a very pro-Town read on Oman and reacted like he did to the possible modkill not because he

knew

Oman was Town, but because he had a strong Town read. So... I don't think the argument is as strong as Guardian seems to think it is, but I also don't think it's totally unreasonable either.

[IH]

Le sigh Setael.

sort of dissolved once Thok started the Guardian wagon. Thok ended up doing the thing that IH pointed out would most benefit Thokscum. Please also notice that IH said "bus" here when I think he meant "wagon." Unless of course he knows for sure that both Guardian and Thok are scum, in which case he may have meant bus.

I find his [Thok's] innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

Ok.
1.I meant bus. If Thok was scum, and so was Guardian, then it would be an easy bus. If Guardian was town it's be even easier to agree with him, and if he was lynched, Guardian would be a perfect mislynch

2.After I had stated as such, and given the time in between, the reason is no longer valid. Do you not see how long it's been since Thok replaced and argued with guardian?

Now, there is one concern I have with Thok. You said you were almost certain Guardian was town Thok, because of his vehemence against me. What do you think about that now?

[Thok]

IH, what purpose do you think your question actually serves?

Also, it simplifies my thoughts on Guardian. From what I can tell this is my most detailed reasoning for finding Guardian protown way back when, although I've also said stuff about getting a Raging Rabbit vibe from him.

I don't think Guardian is scum (the poor wagon on him plus his general level of contribution/consistency in his behavior.

The first has to do with the Romanus/TonyMoonshine/Skruffs wagon on him for his plan to lynch to Elias/Guardian/VitR/Romanus, which I felt was a not particularly convincing bandwagon. It's notable that the wagon there has only one overlap between the most recent Guardian wagon (Tony). I'm not sure what that fact means. The fact that Guardian still had a poor wagon on him is probably notable.

The second has to do with the fact that he definately seems interested in keeping the game alive, even if much of that involved attacking IH for reasons I didn't find compelling. Again , this really hasn't change.

The third was that his behavior had been consistent; I had mentioned getting a Raging Rabbit vibe from him. I feel as if the third thing has changed somewhat (although maybe not as much as I've thought it has).

[TonyMoonshine]

Why you should vote Guardian.

- He's more worried about defending himself than finding scum.
- His attempt to split the town into 2 groups. I think it was post 595.
- His latest slip.

I dislike how it's become scummy to bring up post 595. The same will happen with his latest slip. Time will go by and players will forget. If we lynch him and he's town, it's still his fault. His lengthy back and forth and spam have harmed the game and town a great deal. I'm not the only one frustrated with his play style.

He needs to die.

[Thok]

I dislike how it's become scummy to bring up post 595. The same will happen with his latest slip. Time will go by and players will forget. If we lynch him and he's town, it's still his fault. His lengthy back and forth and spam have harmed the game and town a great deal. I'm not the only one frustrated with his play style.

Hey Tony, I asked you a bunch of questions in post 1231, which you've seemed to have ignored (partially by hammering Adel). Could you go and try to answer them. In particular, I was you to answer the ones about what you think Guardian's 595 means.

[TonyMoonshine]

Hey Tony, I asked you a bunch of questions in post 1231, which you've seemed to have ignored (partially by hammering Adel). Could you go and try to answer them. In particular, I was you to answer the ones about what you think Guardian's 595 means.

I think he was trying to:

A. appear protown, and
B. split the town (divide and conquer)

I think it's just as scummy as John asking about night kills.

[TonyMoonshine]

About 1231, I don't know.

Pretend for a mintue you believe he is scum. I would compare voting records with who's on his list and which group.

I think I will do this when I have time.

[Elias_the_thief]

OMG, it was just a slip I used the wrong word.

OMG, why should I believe you?

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell,

Yet you claim that I'm moving up on your scumlist for what you claim to be a slip. Odd, seeing as saying "bus" is a whole lot more blatant then what I did. Now, I'll agree with you that a slip like that isnt a great tell, but theres no way in hell you can be pushing me for a "slip" when you wont allow people to use it against you. The fact that its a good tell against me, yet bad against you, deserves an FOS.

Also, you still have to respond to my latest points in our debate. Just a reminder.

[Guardian]

OMG, it was just a slip I used the wrong word.

OMG, why should I believe you?

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell,

Yet you claim that I'm moving up on your scumlist for what you claim to be a slip. Odd, seeing as saying "bus" is a whole lot more blatant then what I did. Now, I'll agree with you that a slip like that isnt a great tell, but theres no way in hell you can be pushing me for a "slip" when you wont allow people to use it against you. The fact that its a good tell against me, yet bad against you, deserves an FOS.

Yours was a conscious decision to call Oman def town. Mine was a use of an incorrect term.

They are categorically different things.

Also, you still have to respond to my latest points in our debate. Just a reminder.

Yeah...

[Elias_the_thief]

OMG, it was just a slip I used the wrong word.

OMG, why should I believe you?

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell,

Yet you claim that I'm moving up on your scumlist for what you claim to be a slip. Odd, seeing as saying "bus" is a whole lot more blatant then what I did. Now, I'll agree with you that a slip like that isnt a great tell, but theres no way in hell you can be pushing me for a "slip" when you wont allow people to use it against you. The fact that its a good tell against me, yet bad against you, deserves an FOS.

Yours was a conscious decision to call Oman def town. Mine was a use of an incorrect term.

They are categorically different things.

What? How in hell do you know whether it was a consious decision or not? I was going more on the risk rather than the certainty anyhow. Anyways, youre claiming that what I did is a scumtell because I slipped up and supposedly let loose that I knew he was town. How is your slip up to use a term that wold only be right if you were scum any different?

[Guardian]

What? How in hell do you know whether it was a consious decision or not?

For one thing -- because afterwards you claimed it was a conscious decision -- that you "thought" he was town.

I was going more on the risk rather than the certainty anyhow.

When did you bring this up previously?

Anyways, youre claiming that what I did is a scumtell because I slipped up and supposedly let loose that I knew he was town.

Yeah, you showed having too much information.

How is your slip up to use a term that wold only be right if you were scum any different?

Because they are two similar terms. Both are about wagoning someone. To me it describes the wagoner more than the wagonee, and I probably used it more because I thought Thok was scummy than anything else. My using that term in no way implies that I have additional info.


You saying that Oman being modkilled = bad for town does imply additional info -- and you've never defended why you were so sure Oman was town.

[Guardian]

To Guardian:

Even so, the tone and content of his post are perfectly consistent with scum trying to gain brownie points. He doesn't anger town by pointing the blame at us, he just complains to the mod about how modkilling a townie is bad.

Um, no. You're missing the point. HypoEliasScum wouldn't have to respond to the modkill threat at all. If you believe that he's got some mastermind plan to gain townie brownie points and that he can develop this plan in seven minutes, then you also would believe that he'd take an extra couple of minutes and doublecheck his posts for things like "does it look like I have too much information"?

This is right on the money. First you claim that my post is a contrived attempt to appear town by going against a modkill. However, at the same time, I call Oman obvtown? If I were making a post to appear protown, do you think I would let something that major slip?

You know Oman is town. You know that complaining about townie modkille = looks townlike. You make the post in 7 minutes or less. Final answer: yes.

[slight wifom] I hate to bring records into it, but im 6 and 1 as scum. Im not that stupid. [/slight wifom][/b]

Hm. The one thing this makes me think -- if you are in fact town, what is your town win record? I remember it being something like the reverse. That doesn't do much to make me think you are a good citizen to keep around, or that your case on me is apt to be particularly sensical.

You seem very convinced of it, but I don't think it is that great a case.

This looks like a BS argument to justify why your questions are more important than Elias's questions. And it ignores the fact that Elias was

doing both things at once

.

Exactly. In the beginning of the post, I respond to your arguments about my supposed contrived yet mistake ridden post, and at the end I mention in one sentence that you are not responding to my points at all. In my next post, I again respond to your points about the Oman thing for the first three sentences of the post, and then at the end accuse you of avoiding my points (in one sentence). Then you pull this crap about how im using my case to avoid your points. Hey, guess what? If I posted my points, then you post on a different subject afterwards, then your the one who is attempting to change the subject of discussion with points unaddressed, not me. Further, You made two posts in which you focused only on the Oman thing, both of my posts addressed both issues.

You were trying to make me address your case instead of adressing the Oman issues. I couldn't do that in the time alotted. I've explained this.

And then, CRASH, the site is dead for weeks. I am deeply saddened by the loss, since this was probably the most telling part of the Occult wagon, when it was just starting. Anyways, after NAR is replaced, the suspicion on John/Occult are beginning to pick up again. Here, BM is the very first to suggest the pairing of John and Occult. He then proceeds to vote Occult, on VERY faulty reasoning.

FOS: BM (Guardian).

Faulty reasoning is a BM scum tell?

Pay more attention to the part where he is the first to mention the possible pairing of Occult and John. Later he agrees with himself, and it seems to me as if he was the route of this idea.

I see this, and it was quite bad. I say again: since when is faulty reasoning a BM scum tell?

Mainly because this all the times that bad reasoning come into play, they support Occult getting lynched, which leads me to believe that this faulty reasoning is not genuine, but is in fact a contrived attempt to shift attention to Occult.

BM being on the Occult lynch looks suspicious, I submit to that. But honestly, holding me responsible for BM's logic doesn't make much sense from a meta-perspective. He uses bad logic to attack townies and scum alike.

He is questioned for his reasoning, he evades the question. He eventually states that he is voting Occult because of the possible pairing with John, yet he is not voting John. He at this point has posted more evidence against John, yet is voting Occult on the sole basis of a possible link to John.

FOS: BM (Guardian).

Yeah that wasn't great play on BMs part. You are ignoring how blagho voted John, I notice.

I'm confused. How does Blahgos vote relate to BM? I mean, he replaced him, but the guy made two posts, one with the vote, one requesting replacement. I'm guessing it couldve been a random vote, he couldve been joining a buddy in bussing, or he couldve been distancing. I believe Blahgos vote is a null tell.

I think blagho, with John being scum, looks very much like a townie who didn't really care and wanted a wagon. If you think it was scum distancing... well I can't really argue with that, I can just tell you that it is wrong and that I disagree.

I didnt say that I thought it was distancing. I said that it couldve been any one of the three things I mentioned, making it a null tell, because Blahgo never posted anything game relevant again. Way to COMPLETELY misinterpret my argument.

Not at all -- if this could be one of three things, why couldn't BM's attacking Occult be as town. I have proffered no evidence as to why this should be viewed as town attacking scum.

But you have equally and similarly provided no evidence as to why BM attacking Occult was scum attacking town -- in the previous quote you say it is only suspicious because Occult showed up town.

So, you are in fact being quite selective here -- you are attacking one of my predecessors solely because he wagoned town, and said that was a scum tell.

Then inverse happened when my predecessor wagoned scum, but instead of saying that is a town tell, as would logically follow in the inverse situation, you dismissed that as a null tell.

Soon afterwards, Occult uses attacks BM, because he has seen BM often more aggressive as town, and he feels BM is sitting back this game. John (known scum) comes to his defense, saying that aggressiveness is not a scum tell (completely ignoring the fact that the attack is based on specifically BMs tactics).

FOS: BM (Guardian)

(for sitting back this game, and since Johnscum defends him).

So Johnscum buddying with BM is a scum tell for BM?

First of all, do not mischaracterize this. Although it could be buddying up, it could just as easily be defending a scumbuddy, which is what I see it as.

And I see it as buddying up. You've done nothing to at all convince me or anyone else that it was more likely to be defending than buddying, and it wasn't defending. Saying blagho's vote was a null tell and that John was more likely to be defending is something of a double standard.

Not at all. You see, Blahgos vote was his first post from him. With no other text, there is no way to tell what it is (I think it was probably a random vote at this point). John's post comes well into the game, defending a player already taking heat. Now why would a scum go out of their way to buddy up to someone already taking heat? I can see a mafioso calling someone town to buddy up (*cough* you calling me town all game *cough*), but trying to defend someone already under pressure from meta logic? That is VERY unlikely to be buddying up. Further, I think of Johns play as noob scum. Buddying up is usually a play made by experienced scum, not noobs, from my experience. Defending buddies is a common mistake from newb scum. Therefore, it is much more likely this is defending, not buddying up.

Second of all, I'm using this one fos to represent both the metagaming, which I agree with, and the defense from John.

Hmm? I am slightly confused.

Youre confused easily then. I simply said that this fos is a combination of me being suspicions because I agree with the metagaming, and of the suspicions I have from John defending him. And you were only attacking half of it. I was basically saying my fos will stand on this point, even were you to prove to me that Johns defense of BM wasnt scummy (very doubtful).

Some time goes by. Guardian replaces BM. He calls YB very suspicious, and places a vote. Sometime later he unvotes and votes someone else (IH i think). Guardian makes another post calling YB scummy. Yet, when deadline rolls around, guess who is not on YB, for all his talk? Guardian. Interesting.

FOS: Guardian.

It is completely clear that YB was my #2 suspect, and that IH was far and above my #1 suspect. I've responded to this many times. Voting YB at the end of day would have meant nothing -- YB was going to be lynched, and I would have rather had IH lynched. I saw no reason to move my vote.

There is also no reason not to move your vote. Your move to not vote simply shows to me that you were reluctant to lynch him. Why would you not vote if you thought he was scum?

I wanted IH lynched. I didn't want to support a YB lynch over an IH lynch. Moving my vote or not moving it had no effect on the outcome, why are you pressing this so much?

Because I find it scummy. And I dont believe a protown player would play the way you did in this situation. This: "I didn't want to support a YB lynch over an IH lynch.", in light of the evidence at time, and knowing Johns alignment as we do now, is very suspect.

It was obvious that IH wasnt going to be lynched that day.

/disagree. Well, maybe at the end it was.

Contradict yourself much?

But YB possibly could have been wrong, and I didn't want to support it.

Points like this hurt your case, not help it. IH could easily have been wrong as well, we had about equal evidence for lynching either of them, really. Yet "YB could be wrong", and an IH lynch is A-Ok.

Next day, Guardian doesnt do too much til the end. He had been calling Romanus suspicious and Aimee town all day. Yet when deadline rolls around, instead of voting Romanus (which would have prevented the Aimee lynch) he stays on IH.

FOS: Guardian.

Voting Romanus *wouldn't* have prevented an Aimee lynch, first off. Second off, I was like 65% sure on Romanus, 70% sure on Aimee-town, and 90% sure on IH. Why should I be expected to change my vote when everyone else is placing meaningless votes at day's end? Like some votes on mustafa, for instance?

It wouldve helped towards preventing it. Basically, I dont like the passive attitude you took towards the Aimee lynch near the end of the day.

OK, that's more supportable -- but I wanted IH lynched -- and with 2 votes needed only, he *was* a viable candidate. *Anyone* was a viable candidate, and I saw no reason to change my vote.

Even though at the time everyone was disagreeing with your cases on him. But alright.

On page 43, IH attacks him for not moving to Romanus and letting Aimee get lynched (1051). However, IH makes a typo in the post. Guardian exposes the typo and avoids the question. (1053). However, IH never brings up the point again, despite Guardians obvious evasion.

FOS: Guardian, mFOS: IH.

I wanted clarification -- I agree with the fosing IH, but I really wasn't sure what IH meant -- did he expect me to switch to Romanus, or to mustafa, or what? I don't like at all how you attack me for trying to get clarification on this typo.

I think it was pretty obvious what he meant, otherwise, why would I have known what he was saying?

Because you assumed what he meant instead of having him explain it himself? IH-Elias connection?

Huh? Since when were scum allowed to privately daytalk? In order for me to have any better understanding of his point then anyone else as scum, we would have to be daytalking. Also, who were you expressing suspicions on at the time, yet notably not voting? Romanus, thats who. It was fairly obvious what he meant.

Guardian votes MoS on BS reasons. Later, he votes Tony on BS reasons. (Not saying that it was a bad vote, saying that his PROVIDED reasons were bad).

FOS: Guardian.

Also, sometime during this day, he attacks Skruffs for something that NAR did, which he has no evidence of happening besides other peoples reports

I have already responded to all of this. MoS was really scummy and wasn't contributing and needed to be voted. If Oman doesn't get replaced, I feel that the same standard should probably apply. I don't think my reasons for voting Tony were BS. Also, as I've said many times, I was shadowing this game, and when I saw it needed replacement I jumped in. I hardly remember them now, but I had read NAR's votehopping and badlogic.

MoS wasnt really scummy. Adel was scummy, hopping into the game voting random immediately without reasoning, but MoS really wasnt, he hadnt finished reading.

mustafa was scummy. MoS wasn't doing anything. Game was dying. Lynch MoS.

As I see it, you basically just said "I had an easy lynch, and an excuse. Lynch MoS".

I disagree on your reasons for tony. And about NAR, if you can hardly remember it, why in hell are you attacking someone about it?

I remembered it then, and I have my recollections of it and yours in writing.

Do you remember what post 27 was? If not, then why attack people for it?

Answer: because you can go back and read it. We don't have a direct history of NAR's actions, but we do have a fairly reliable indirect history if it -- your analysis included. Or were you misrepresenting NAR's actions?

I was representing NARs actions correctly, yes. But do you know whether I was or not? No. You trusted them no apparent reason. And I believe it was because by blindly believing me, you had a better chance of getting someone lynched, which I see as a fairly antitown action.

He has also votehopped the whole game, despite his posts, which have attacked IH all game.

Quoted For Lying. WTF Elias -- you attack me two or three times in this post for NOT switching my vote off of IH, and now accuse me of votehopping? WTF?

Don't you see? Thats what makes your votehopping so suspicious. There were two particular instances, near deadline, where you decided to stick your vote on someone when you were suspicious of others.

Notably IH over YB and Romanus? YB and IH I thought were scum together, and moving my vote did not matter at all. Romanus we don't know his alignment, all though from your posts 7 back I'm really beginning to guess it is town.

You didnt votehop nearly as much as I thought, though I still think youchange your vote too much for my likeing (almost always arbitrarily, and almost always back to IH after a while).

Besides those two instances, you've been hopping around like crazy (and always landing back at IH).

That's not really true. IH has been my main focus.

It is true. Youve voted for pretty much anyone that anyone has showed the least bit suspicion for, though you havent hopped as much as I thought.

And for all his talk about IH, the only good point he has, as far as I can tell, is IH's voting record.

FOS: Guardian.

IH is flippant and scummy every single post, and blatantly ignores arguments and tries to contrive arguments on others. His voting record is only a part of what I find him scummy for.

As far as I can tell he's responded to every one of your points. From what I've seen, youre the one that ignored one of his points.

The point where you assumed what he meant but he never clarified? That one? Why are you defending him on that and attacking me?

Also, you count all his responses as "responding to every one of my points"? He has typed text after quoting almost all of my points, as I've said, he hasn't really

responded

to them in many instances.

Stop being ridiculous. You cant just say, "I dont like what he said" and claim he never responded. If you dont like the response, deal, but dont try to make it out as if he didnt say anything.
Also, Im hardly defending him. I'm pointing out a fault in your arguments, in order to further my case against you. The fact that your faulty point happens to be against IH has nothing to do with it.

If you feel otherwise, provide me with some quotes.

I've done this before... I am too busy to re-read IH right now, but if me doing this will be relevant, I can do it at some later time.

And we agree that the only point of his I've ignored is the one where he never made clear what his point was?

Ah. Too busy. alright then. Also, IH claims that he did clarify what he meant in a later post.

I think that there is A LOT of good evidence for a Guardian lynch. Therefore, I will

vote: Guardian

.

Wow Elias. I have a question for you. Most of "your arguments" were brought up by others and responded to by me numerous times in the game.Why is it that only now you find me scummy for them, and you didn't find me scummy for them at earlier times when they came up?

Mainly, this stems from the fact that I dropped off the radar around oh...page 29ish? And from that point on I've been saying things like "I need to reread", Ill reread tomorrow" and such, and not really paying attention to the thread. I finally got a round to it, and this is what I found. Also, there at least 2 or 3 points in there I never saw brought against you.

Ah -- so you didn't find me suspicious because you've been lurking all game without any relevant opinions, and just now you are re-entering? .

Um, yes. I have been lurking most of the game, from a combination of lack or effort, RL getting in the way, and your giant feuds with IH. Roll your eyes all you want, Im thinking youre just unhappy that there is another participating protown player in the mix.

[Elias_the_thief]

What? How in hell do you know whether it was a consious decision or not?

For one thing -- because afterwards you claimed it was a conscious decision -- that you "thought" he was town.

Ah. When did the fact that I agreed with that point at a later time change into me thinking "oman is town, i will assume a modkill is bad"? Somehow you seem to have transformed one of my statements into a totally different one. My first reaction at the site of a modkill is "oh shit, stop the modkill". Sorry if thats wrong.

I was going more on the risk rather than the certainty anyhow.

When did you bring this up previously?

I didnt. I dont see why this gives you the right to ignore the argument. You simply decided to start saying that I assumed this and that without actually trying to find out why I said what I did.

Anyways, youre claiming that what I did is a scumtell because I slipped up and supposedly let loose that I knew he was town.

Yeah, you showed having too much information.

Even though it is common knowledge that there are more townies left in this game then scum. Even if I had a neutral read on him, id be likely to protest the modkill because the majority of players are town.

How is your slip up to use a term that wold only be right if you were scum any different?

Because they are two similar terms. Both are about wagoning someone. To me it describes the wagoner more than the wagonee, and I probably used it more because I thought Thok was scummy than anything else. My using that term in no way implies that I have additional info.

The fact that theyre are similar terms means nothing. I dont see why you would even be thinking about getting bussed if you werent scum. And youre right, it doesnt imply additional info, but its still a slip. And thus, youre accusing me of doing it and being a scum tell, but when you do it its just a little whoopsie dasie.

You saying that Oman being modkilled = bad for town does imply additional info -- and you've never defended why you were so sure Oman was town.

It doesnt imply additional info. It implies the ability to realize there are more town in a game then scum, and even from a neutral standpoint or even slightly negative standpoint, modkilling is bad. Thats the instinct I was acting on. You know, even from the position that Oman is scum, modkilling ends discussion, and thus bad. The point about us being at LYLO was the only bad comment in that post, and that came from me forgetting that this is nightless anyhow. Forgetting something sure is proof of having additional knowledge.