Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[Elias_the_thief]

I am noticing somethings in the reread that I missed before, but need to finish to be sure.

Same here. I'm seeing things that convinced me the first time (that Elias was scum) and they still make good sense (reading Elias' posts alone and the buildup to the Oman vig, for the most part so far).

Elias noting SPAG as town with so little to go on rings like Oman finding Elias town over pulse with me.

How about posting an entire case instead of bits and pieces? Its hard for me to refute your arguments if you never post them together. Give me one solid case that I can defend myself from.

In other news,

MOD: can we get prods/replacement on inactives?

Also, Hermit, I think its really ridiculous that you call me evasive when I've done the best job defending myself out of all of you...

Prodding Nelly and Jordan -Mod

[Setael]

Like he's trying to shoot down the argument before it can begin.

This is anti town? Wouldnt a townie have the same motivation to shoot down arguments against him that are illogical?

You neglected to mention the clincher - the fact that you were shooting down an argument before it ever began. Sure, Townies are going to shoot down arguments, but imo mafia is more likely to pre-plan defenses to arguments that have not yet been brought up.

[Nelly632]

I am still here...

[curiouskarmadog]

The vollkan/Elias exchange was very time consuming to read, but there are some good points there.

Read closer. Vollkan, proven townie, admitted it was a meta debate in the end and he actually had no evidence in the end. Are you seriously convinced that I'm scum by his admittal of error?

interesting, I never said I thought you were scum..

[Elias_the_thief]

The vollkan/Elias exchange was very time consuming to read, but there are some good points there.

Read closer. Vollkan, proven townie, admitted it was a meta debate in the end and he actually had no evidence in the end. Are you seriously convinced that I'm scum by his admittal of error?

interesting, I never said I thought you were scum..

Then why did you say you were considering joining my wagon yesterday? For kicks and giggles?

[Elias_the_thief]

Like he's trying to shoot down the argument before it can begin.

This is anti town? Wouldnt a townie have the same motivation to shoot down arguments against him that are illogical?

You neglected to mention the clincher - the fact that you were shooting down an argument before it ever began. Sure, Townies are going to shoot down arguments, but imo mafia is more likely to pre-plan defenses to arguments that have not yet been brought up.

but imo

mafia is more likely to pre-plan defenses to arguments that have not yet been brought up

first of all, "imo" is the important thing to notice here. Second of all, I've been playing mafia a LONG time now, and I know this argument always surfaces after a NK of someone who was extremely opposed to another. Why would I want to waste time by waiting for someone to bring it up to refute it, when I could just do save time by doing it beforehand?

[curiouskarmadog]

The vollkan/Elias exchange was very time consuming to read, but there are some good points there.

Read closer. Vollkan, proven townie, admitted it was a meta debate in the end and he actually had no evidence in the end. Are you seriously convinced that I'm scum by his admittal of error?

interesting, I never said I thought you were scum..

Then why did you say you were considering joining my wagon yesterday? For kicks and giggles?

good point, guess I do find you scummy at this point in the reread...


please provide the post that vollakn admitted his error?

[curiouskarmadog]

I am still here...

any comment on how Day 1 went?

[Elias_the_thief]

In other words, the argument with Elias has been whittled down to him voting on the basis of what I don't think is a scumtell.

Unvote

. Evidently we just play in very different ways.

I tend to drag out the arguments to an extent, because the strategy depends on a large amount of questioning.

I then find that people do one of two things:
1) Like Elias, their explanations are consistent. Any grievances minor or major are resolved (This excludes the Oman list, but I think that could become more helpful later on)
2) Like Hermit, they resort to contradictory and ever-changing explanations.

Two instances of him admitting that our debate was resolved with my reasoning being consistent. The onyl problem he has with with me is entirely metagame based, because he doesnt agree with a certain scumtell that I agree with.

Post with my entire case against Hermit coming tomorrow.

[Nelly632]

any comment on how Day 1 went

Day went actually went better then I would have expected, we knew we were going to lose Volkan during the night but atleast he took out scum with him on Day One. Truth be told my vote changed to Paradoxombie based on your confidence in his guilt. Now that Day Two is upon us and he has been proven guilty you would assume that I would immediatly turn toward you but that is not the case.

I believe that you were confident that he was scum but being sure of something and it turning out to be wrong does not make you scum.

I still have my thoughts on Hermit & Spag and the truth be told I am personally choosing between them right now and once I decide I will post more.

[curiouskarmadog]

any comment on how Day 1 went

Day went actually went better then I would have expected, we knew we were going to lose Volkan during the night but atleast he took out scum with him on Day One. Truth be told my vote changed to Paradoxombie based on your confidence in his guilt. Now that Day Two is upon us and he has been

proven guilty

you would assume that I would immediatly turn toward you but that is not the case.

I believe that you were confident that he was scum but being sure of something and it turning out to be wrong does not make you scum.

I still have my thoughts on Hermit & Spag and the truth be told I am personally choosing between them right now and once I decide I will post more.

I assume you mean "proven innocent" (bolded area)...and yes I was sure tha Para was scum...I just dont like the way that he played and what clinched it for me was the misquoting to push a false case.

[Elias_the_thief]

There would be no fault in pushing a lynch of para, were it not for the fact that a better wagon on Hermit was going on simultaneously. Of course, thats completely my opinion. I will only find your puch for a para lynch suspicious if Hermit comes up as scum.

[curiouskarmadog]

There would be no fault in pushing a lynch of para, were it not for the fact that a better wagon on Hermit was going on simultaneously. Of course, thats completely my opinion. I will only find your puch for a para lynch suspicious if Hermit comes up as scum.

I believe your bandwagon was going on as well, does that make me scummy if you come up scum as well?

back to the read

[gorckat]

How about posting an entire case instead of bits and pieces? Its hard for me to refute your arguments if you never post them together. Give me one solid case that I can defend myself from.

While going over your posts, I got hung up on the fact that you called Hermit's 101 (iirc) a backtrack and something like a common cum tactic/move when caught, but didn't get back to him after unvoting Nelly. I also got stuck on "pressure" and why it made sense to vote Nelly when you did, but not unvote when he was at -1.

Going over it all again (loads to read, as you know ) I'm again satisfied with your answers to those questions.

What I'm stuck on is Oman's actions- the list ordering and declaration that you were more town than pulse. Since there's no way to get Oman's input on them, I'm inclined to go with my gut on how it makes you look.

[JordanA24]

Rereading SPAG's posts, I really don't like what he's done, he seemed to push Paradox's wagon subtly, and when he was sure that Para was going to be lynched, place the hammer on him. I've underlined the important parts of the posts below.

Ok, although i haven't been able to read through the whole thread,

a selection of you seem pretty sure on Para, and from what i have read on him (I looked through his posts) he is looking like the prime suspect at the moment.

Well, I'm going to go with it.

vote : para

I just hope we are right.

I think he is scummy, yes, but i am yet to read the thread properly.

Since we have a fortnight (almost) until the deadline, I have plenty of time to have a read through and cast a thoughtful vote rather than a quick one on the first person i suspect.

Then we have the hammer.

Oh yeah, i forgot to say good job on Oman I trust you will be protected.

Well, i think i'm going to go for it and place my vote on him.

Vote: Paradoxombie

I just hope we are right.

Why does he say "I hope we are right" twice? The bit that particularly catches my eye is the "we" bit, I think he's trying a bit too hard to seem part of the town.

Also, in the post a day before the hammer, he says

Since we have a fortnight (almost) until the deadline, I have plenty of time to have a read through and cast a thoughtful vote rather than a quick one on the first person i suspect.

The next day, he hammers, saying "I hope we're right" Terribly scummy if you ask me.

I think this combined with Setael's case makes me confident enough to

Vote: SPAG

.

[Shanba]

crap. Totally forgot about this game.

[curiouskarmadog]

Lacking the time to finish the reread at the moment. However, just noticed that Elias felt it was worthy to note that vollkan apparently said his argument with Elias was moot, but didn’t find it necessary to comment on why he thought SPAG was town in post 284.

Please do so now.

[gorckat]

Skimming back to Elias' player reviews (in two posts):

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

9 posts, all brief (~3-5 sentences each)

SirTornado: None of his posts seem scummy to me. His posts agree with many of mine, and he seems to have town's best interest at heart. Official Opinion: Probably Town

8 posts, including a long review of action at the tail end of the DFN action, some short

Pulsewidth: Um, barely enough posts to analize. Official Opinion: Undecided, slightly scummy looking

8 posts, 2 very long

Even though he agrees with Sir T, he can't pin him down as town as solidly as SPAG, who didn't have as much content as pulse, whom he said he didn't have enough to get a read on?

[Setael]

MoD can we please get a prod on SPAG?

Prodding SPAG -Mod

[curiouskarmadog]

SPAG has been replaced or killed for looking in all of his games...even the game he was modding a back up mod has taken over..

[Elias_the_thief]

Skimming back to Elias' player reviews (in two posts):

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

9 posts, all brief (~3-5 sentences each)

SirTornado: None of his posts seem scummy to me. His posts agree with many of mine, and he seems to have town's best interest at heart. Official Opinion: Probably Town

8 posts, including a long review of action at the tail end of the DFN action, some short

Pulsewidth: Um, barely enough posts to analize. Official Opinion: Undecided, slightly scummy looking

8 posts, 2 very long

Even though he agrees with Sir T, he can't pin him down as town as solidly as SPAG, who didn't have as much content as pulse, whom he said he didn't have enough to get a read on?

I was concentrating much harder on posting my opinions of the players I found scummy/defending myself. My posts were lacking I suppose in tersm of why I thought people were town. Also, there is more to posts then just how long they are. There is also what they are about and how well reasoned they are. You're coming from the assumption that I base all of my opinions on amount and length of posts, which is ridiculous.

[TheHermit]

The thing is, every one of SPAG's posts up to that point he either meandered nowhere or just repeated what had already been long deduced by everyone else. How do you go from this to "officially town"?

[curiouskarmadog]

Skimming back to Elias' player reviews (in two posts):

SPAG: All his posts have given me a town feel, though no one post stands out. Official Opinion: Town

9 posts, all brief (~3-5 sentences each)

SirTornado: None of his posts seem scummy to me. His posts agree with many of mine, and he seems to have town's best interest at heart. Official Opinion: Probably Town

8 posts, including a long review of action at the tail end of the DFN action, some short

Pulsewidth: Um, barely enough posts to analize. Official Opinion: Undecided, slightly scummy looking

8 posts, 2 very long

Even though he agrees with Sir T, he can't pin him down as town as solidly as SPAG, who didn't have as much content as pulse, whom he said he didn't have enough to get a read on?

I was concentrating much harder on posting my opinions of the players I found scummy/defending myself. My posts were lacking I suppose in tersm of why I thought people were town. Also, there is more to posts then just how long they are. There is also what they are about and how well reasoned they are. You're coming from the assumption that I base all of my opinions on amount and length of posts, which is ridiculous.

good point, can you please provide some quotes in which you based your "officially town" rating for SPAG?

[Elias_the_thief]

Nothing really tangible. But none of his posts threw any scumtells out there, and he agreed with me on a couple of points. Admittedly, this could be buddying up, but I was pretty focused on players who posted more content. You know, most of the players I called protown (besides vollkan) I didnt really have much evidence for. I dont know if that makes me scummy or not. If you think so, I'd be interested in hearing why.

[curiouskarmadog]

no, I just find it interesting given that spag posted little to nothing that you felt he was town. I found it more interesting that you other off your list at that time.