California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

LoudmouthLee: 4 (Cubsfan4ever, IH/Oman, Skruffs, Thesp)
Cubsfan4ever: 3 (foolinc, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha)
Battle Mage/jeep: 3 (Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, Mgm)
Dragon Phoenix: 2 (Adele, Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels)
Skruffs: 2 (LoudmouthLee, VitaminR)
foolinc: 1 (Tamuz/Thestatusquo)
IH/Oman: 1 (logicticus)
Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels: 1 (xyzzy)
xyzzy: 1 (Zindaras)

Current Condorcet Winner:

None. Current Smith Set: Battle Mage/jeep, LoudmouthLee

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

[foolinc]

So not only our you defending Skruffs, but you are voting for LML for doing the same thing Skruffs is, being himself.

After looking at your posts again, you look even scummier since you defend Skruffs for being Skruffs, but attacking LML because he was beening his overagressive self.

To suggest that LoudmouthLee is being voted for "being himself" is a gross oversimplification.

I was talking in regards to Cubs, not the rest of the people voting for LML, so I don't see why it's a case of gross oversimplification.

[Tamuz]

I'm in colorado with my soccer team right now so I really have very little time because my coach is a dick. Anyway, I'd just like to say I'm liking how people are continuing to post, whats going out there is pretty good. Some things I'd like to say:

I want to do a PVPA on fooling (or someone else could) I think thats where my vote'll stay
Tally, sorry for not being outright, I never am. You could still answer it
Thesp, can you just humour LML and show him your case, you haven't actually said it once, just made awkward roundabout statements when he ask for it.

[Mgm]

If we aren't going to get 11 votes to lynch someone we need a Condorcet winner.
Someone pulled their vote off BM... Grrrrr

[Gaspar]

(Glork here again)

The accented post came from Primate. I had not begun reading the game at that point.

Mgm, could you please comment on the parts of my post that pertained to you. In particular, I would like you to explain exactly what your stance on early Concordet voting is, and I would like you to respond to this paragraph:

Basically, the philosophy is that anything is better than nothing. A protown player should have little problem expressing his weighted suspicions. He should also have relatively little trouble expanding upon those suspicions when asked to. Mgm, DP:

NOTHING

is stopping you from asking Jeep to explain his lists. Yet instead of doing that, you have both chosen to simply attack him for his chosen play. Major

FoS: DP, Mgm

Right now, I can see from the current vote count that both you and DP are still (or once again) voting for Jeep, and I think that your behavior towards him early in the game was inexcusable. I want you to explain posthaste.

Zindaras: I realize that there's a lot of theory, but I think that it's very applicable to the game. The attacks made by DP and Mgm are, in part, based on Jeep's use and defense of the Concordet method and his theory that those not using it are suspect. And like I said, I'm going for impressions/reactions here, but the manner in which DP and Mgm have launched their attacks on Jeep seems highly suspect to me right now.


As a note to everyone, I will not be able to read the rest of the game until Saturday afternoon/evening EDT. I am going out in a little bit, working all morning tomorrow, and will be at game on Saturday afternoon. Hopefully Primate will be able to jump in with his thoughts before then.

[Battle Mage]

If we aren't going to get 11 votes to lynch someone we need a Condorcet winner.
Someone pulled their vote off BM... Grrrrr

your case on me is non-existant. I've read up on the Condorcet system, and i actually dont see what the problem is. As long as we all post a ranked list before deadline, it is probably fairer for disputes to be solved that way. Obviously it is better if we can get an actual lynch, but, failing that, the alternative is nothing to be whinging about as far as i can see..

I will make my full list tomorrow, but in the meantime, Vote: DragonPhoenix

[Battle Mage]

damn, i clicked 'submit' instead of bold. lol

Unvote, Vote: DragonPhoenix

[LoudmouthLee]

I suspect we've entered the slapfight phase of the argument, where we go, "Yes it is"/"No it isn't"/"Yes it is"/"No it isn't". I'm a little uncertain as to where to go after that

Well...

Can we try to find scum now? Instead of concentrating on splitting hairs? I am not scum.

If you really think I'm scum, I will try to show you I'm not. I think we need to look harder to find scum. If we continue to bicker like this, I'll get mislynched, and then the tide will turn to you. If you're pro-town (and our argument seems to be of two pro-town players), it will turn to you.

I don't want the town to be down 2 pro-town players off the bat. I know I'm pro-town (duh.) but I think you are too, Thesp.

I humbly request the removal of votes from my name. I do not want to be deadline lynched because of a bunch of egos clashing at the same time. I am so trying to be a team player here. I want to find scum. I have been too busy being confrontational and reactive.

Pending a reread...

Unvote. Vote: Cubsfan

[Battle Mage]

^ouch^. Thats a hella scummy post right there...
Appeal to Emotion in bucketloads!

[Mgm]

If we aren't going to get 11 votes to lynch someone we need a Condorcet winner.
Someone pulled their vote off BM... Grrrrr

your case on me is non-existant. I've read up on the Condorcet system, and i actually dont see what the problem is.

The problem is pretty clear. At the time of the last vote count, we did not have anyone winning a Condorcet situation (aka a tie), which would result in a no lynch. That is a pretty big problem in my book.

[Mgm]

(Glork here again)

The accented post came from Primate. I had not begun reading the game at that point.

Mgm, could you please comment on the parts of my post that pertained to you. In particular, I would like you to explain exactly what your stance on early Concordet voting is, and I would like you to respond to this paragraph:

Basically, the philosophy is that anything is better than nothing. A protown player should have little problem expressing his weighted suspicions. He should also have relatively little trouble expanding upon those suspicions when asked to. Mgm, DP:

NOTHING

is stopping you from asking Jeep to explain his lists. Yet instead of doing that, you have both chosen to simply attack him for his chosen play. Major

FoS: DP, Mgm

I explained myself in post 412. And I already shared my opinion on early Condorcet voting. I even argued with jeep because he quoted me on it and mangled the quote - leaving out a particularly important part of the sentence.

[Gaspar]

And I already shared my opinion on early Condorcet voting.

I'm asking you to

further elaborate

on your opinion of early-day Concordet voting. I would like you to address these two points specifically, without simply saying "I already talked about this." Keep in mind that I have not read much of the game, so I'm not caught up on all of your explanations. I don't care if you have to re-state your opinion, I just want you to do it clearly and concisely:

• People can see the progression of your suspicions. If you're town, you've got nothing to hide, so you should be able to respond to any inquiries as to why your suspicions have shifted or adjusted.
  
• An extension of the above point, forcing scum to constantly list all of their top suspects in order limits their ability to suddenly or strategically launch a new attack on a different player. While it does not completely eliminate this possibility ("I just did a re-read on Adele's posts, and I find her to be scummy for these reasons...."), it forces scums to keep up some similar threads of thought/suspicion from the very start of the day. It's *MUCH* easier to catch flip-flops and inconsistencies if we have repeated detailed lists of suspects.

As far as your attitude towards Jeep, I take issue with a couple of things:

a. He starts out by saying that there's no reason not to use the list unless you're scum who hasn't discussed it with his buddies, or not figured a way to use it to your advantage, but later changes it to saying that by saying that "I don't like using Condorcet voting" discourages other people from doing so - which isn't true and is change to what he first said. (aka backpeddeling)

I don't see the backpedaling here. I think that "Only scum who haven't found a strategic advantage for Concordet won't use Concordet early" is a different point from "discouraging others to use Concordet voting is scummy." I will grant that the two points are

related

. Anytime that a player actively fails or discourages the inclusion of information (such as a series of Concordet votes), that denies the town the ability to analyze said information.
* By refusing to use Concordet, you are denying the town the ability to analyze your own votes.
* By discouraging others to use Concordet, you are attempting to deny the town the ability to analyze their votes.

Different, but related points. I don't think that Jeep backed down from anything.

b. Jeep claimed that votes only need to be justified if people want to follow you. Complete and utter bullocks. Votes need to be justified so you can use someone's vote to deduce their intentions.

How many times have you seen Glork, Fritz, CES, Simenon, Zindaras, or other players make votes without justifying them? Do you fly off the handle at them each and every time? (Glork's answer: I highly doubt that.) If not, why is Jeep's case different than, say, Fritzler back in Face-To-Face?



Furthermore, Mgm:
If you wanted Jeep to explain his votes, why did you not simply

ask him to do so

before launching into a series of explanations as to why he is scum for not having done so?
If Jeep had not used concordet-voting and just had his single votes, would you have gone after him for not explaining his choices? Why or why not?
What do you think of players such as foolinc who made a few vague comments on several players but never fully explained themeselves (as in Post 158 -- See Cubs, Jeep, Logic, Loudmouth, Oman -- all players that he made statements on and/or gave an opinion on without explaining the

WHY

of those statements)? What did you think of foolinc at that point? What separates a list of vague, unexplained comments from a list of Concordet votes?

[Mr. Grey]

Deadline:

Approximately 72 hours from this post.

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Cubsfan4ever: 4 (foolinc, LoudmouthLee, PookyTheMagicalBear, Talitha)
LoudmouthLee: 4 (Cubsfan4ever, IH/Oman, Skruffs, Thesp)
Dragon Phoenix: 3 (Adele, Battle Mage/jeep, Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels)
Battle Mage/jeep: 3 (Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, Mgm)
foolinc: 1 (Tamuz/Thestatusquo)
IH/Oman: 1 (logicticus)
Gaspar/PlaysWithSquirrels: 1 (xyzzy)
Skruffs: 1 (VitaminR)
xyzzy: 1 (Zindaras)

Current Condorcet Winner:

None. Current Smith Set: Battle Mage/jeep, LoudmouthLee

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

Important Note:

When compiling Condorcet lists, I am treating unvotes as a complete reset of the list. If you wish to retain the same (or similar) list when unvoting or changing your vote, please post another copy of the list.

[IH]

Condorcent list in a bit.

I'm not trying to "reach" anything. His replacement, in and of itself, is not based on him breaking the rules, and not from teh family thing, which spurred a question: "Why?". I am sorry that some people do more than bandwagon vote to figure out who is scum or not. If jeep has a scum=tell where he leaves or replaces otu of a game if he screws up somehow, than yeah, I will definitely move my vote to him. Some of the more experienced players in the game may very well be able to point that out. I have no idea. REMEMBER: NEVER PLAYED WITH HIM. It probably was not very tactful to probe into the events surrounding his departure, but, I went there.

This is extremely wifom and misleading. All it does is cast doubt on Jeep. The question itself is useless because there are way to many variables.

I would personally not count it scummy towards Skruffs himself because this just looks like the kind of tangent Skruffs would take regardless of alignment. = \

on the other hand....

Again, do not take me ASKING if jeep's request to be replaced as SAYING that he is scummy. I was asking because I have no idea. If I thought it was, I would not have asked.

This waffling I would consider scummy.

Most of your posts have been (rightly) asking why I got such a wagon on me and saying I'm town, etc. I appreciate it, to a point. You did something similar to this in Anime mafia as an SK. Are you scum?

Please answer this cubsfan.

I agree with post 363

Xyzzy needs to post. Gogogogo.

I like MGM's post 369, though his quote about DP never saying there were two families are misleading. Pretty much both Skruff and DP are being scummy about that one = \

BM, some questions.

I didn’t like MgM’s opening vote of CES. It looked like an attempt to protect himself from an inevitable vote (no respectable player likes to resort to OMGUS).

What? How? I'm confused....

Skruffs seems to be posting prolifically, and evidently seems keen to contribute. On the other hand, the speed of the BW on him, seems more like bussing than an attempted mislynch…

Wow. How uncomittal. Why do you think it's bussing?

Also didn’t like the way DP deliberately put Skruffs at -4. Requires explanation imo.

How is this scummy?

Then Jeep joins in, as does Oman, who puts Skruffs at -2! I also disagreed with several aspects of DP’s analysis in post 115. Post 132 seems like a roundabout way of saying “Skruffs hasn’t done anything wrong, LEAVE HIM ALONE.” Lol

Are you sure Skruffs made it to Lynch -2?

MgM joins DP bandwagonning Jeep.

Now, first you don't like DP putting skruffs at minus 4, now you don't like him "bandwagoning jeep" yet this had reasons for it. Why do you just look at the vote and ignore the reasons?

Oh god. Post 148 is a corker. I’ve seen this stuff from Oman before. The only time you are likely to see Oman so cautious about joining a BW is when he is scum. CES meanwhile, gives me town vibes. VitR also seems to make a lot of sense at the top of page 7.

I'd like metagaming proof. I want specific games. Sounds like you're pulling this out of thin air.

Interesting to see the numbers jumping to the aid of DP, despite the early stage of the game. Xyzzy is among these in post 156. I think Foolinc was helpful with his post early in the game, concerning potential characters. On the other hand, I felt his analysis of the players, later in the game, was less than brilliant. TSQ finally shows up, exhibiting a desire not to be replaced, yet also an inclination not to help the town.

BM fails at looking at dates, and only at post numbers.
BM has pretty much omgused his way onto the vote list. He has completely ignored any reasons or cases against Jeep, or anyone else, and just views it as a bandwagon.
I am pretty certain my vote will be moving back to him when I make up my voting list.

MgM-Erm, unfortunately, no i can't, as the game is still in progress. Hence this can only serve as a validation for my vote, but it would be interesting to see whether others who have seen OMan play before as scum, can corroborate my suggestion.

Exactly what I thought.

I will explain again: People who ask for clarification in thread, IMHO are trying to appear more townie when they are really not.

This is stupid. How does that make you appear more townie? You are citing a SCUMCHAT game. For a BAH post. This is not valid.

I'm uncertain how you have such divination powers. ("You would have acted like Z" arguments are always very problematic - and troublesome.)

I don't. I get angry (need proof?) when I get bandwagoned / mislynched / etc. as pro-town. I det downright insulting and nasty. I'm trying to break that habit. I know many excellent players who do the same thing.

Err, what?

PR3 - 24 players, One family, one faction, both hinted at in opening post

Untrue. You forget about the trio killers and the mafia. Thats two families. Two groups of scum.

Except for PR3, which was a bit of an exception anyways, any game witwh two families referenced those families in the first post. Maybe there are tons of games that break the mold, but these are the games I have had experience with.

You wouldn't consider this game a "bit of an exception"!?!?!

Largely. It seems to me that the fact that LML was vocal about what he saw as scummy is mostly what led to this position. He just picked out a few things and voted people for them. I don't see it.

No. Not at all. It's not him being vocal and loud about it. It's what he's accusing people of. I don't like him saying that a question about a bah post is scummy. I don't like him saying that MoS went out of his way to look like dice tags, even though it has been stated MULTIPLE times that it would take all of three minutes to do so.

I'm conflicted over Adele's post 388. I like most of the points, but I still think she misinterpreted this quote.

. Congratulations on the astute observation that if I mention a second family, that this implies that there is a first. Excellent. If you think my next comment you refer to (about there also being a possibility of one family and a SK) is backpedalling, then you don't understand the meaning of that word.

I still think this, which was apparently her deciding factor, didn't actually have that much to do with it. I mean I automatically assumed it was hypothetical in a smart ass way. "Duh, if I was going to talk about a second, there is a first". I mean, how else can you talk about a second unless there is a first? Or else the second family would be the first by default.

Adele,

So you are voting for DP because he seems to have slipped up indicting that there are two families. So my question is, do you believe that DP has some sort of role that gives him information that there are 2 families?

Typically in a 2 family game, the families are ignorant of each other. Its not until they see a death of the other family that they realize they are not alone.

Pssshhhht
^^^^The sound of a hole being poked in a case.

I would like both Skruffs and Adele to respond to this post by Logictus.

Hi, QFT, kthxbai.

Question. You QFT'd it, but seem to disregard Jeep's main point. His point that it is scummy to not use it. Do you agree? If so, why? Why is it scummy not to?

I think this whole logic of "if Skruffs turns out to be innocent than it means Cubs is scum" is a great big pile of crap logic. As town I think part of my duty is to not only ensure that scum is lynched but work towards that in part by ensuring people that I think are town are not lynched. I do not think it is scummy to defend somebody that you think is town. It's something that could be scummy but to use that alone was somehow evidence that I am ultra-scum does not work.

So.... as a duty of a protown player could you do more than post 25 words per 48 hours?

@Talitha-what you say is true, but i dont want to intentionally mislynch here. Atm my vote is most likely to go to DP, though if necessary i will go back to Cubs in order to assure a lynch.
Dont worry-i'm as bloodthirsty as they come. I just try and employ a little logic first.

So can we kill this guy yet?

No. It's not. There still hasn't even been a remotely decent case on me. So far, you're voting me because:

-You dont agree with the scumtell I cited (and, while I'm at it, Thesp, do you think Zin's playing a pro-town game?)

-You think that my anger at Scruffs is manufactured.

-

You think I'm being too aggressive.

(nods) You have one kickass case.

Please cite this italicized part.

Notice BM unvoted and never resubmitted a condorcent list. Which means his condorcent list has been reset.

Yes I am voting like this for a reason, and I do still want BM dead.

unvote, vote:LML

Battlemage, Cubsfan, Xyzzy, Adele

[Gaspar]

Do you agree? If so, why? Why is it scummy not to?

Have you actually read my posts? Did you not read the lengthy explanations about how posting Concordet votes helps the town? Did you see my explanations on how not-posting them (and/or discouraging others to post them by calling them pointless or scummy) hurts the town?

Minor FoS: IH

for simply not paying any attention to what's going on.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Agh

Lee trying to be a team player and appealing to emotion like a sissy.

IH putting Lee on his vote while in effect only moving BM up since his vote was already on Lee so he's effectively while putting Lee in his "vote part" actually exonerating Lee by putting BM ahead of him in Condorcet Rankings since he is moving up BM. Looks Hella scummy.(Someone correct me if I'm misinterpreting how these condorcet rankings work)

It almost makes me want to move on Lee.

Sigh.

Rereading again.

[VitaminR]

^ouch^. Thats a hella scummy post right there...
Appeal to Emotion in bucketloads!

I actually found this quite scummy. Endorsing a wagon without voting, but using the "appeal to emotion"-justification to kick someone when they're down.

No. Not at all. It's not him being vocal and loud about it. It's what he's accusing people of. I don't like him saying that a question about a bah post is scummy. I don't like him saying that MoS went out of his way to look like dice tags, even though it has been stated MULTIPLE times that it would take all of three minutes to do so.

The latter part of your sentence isn't really true. LML is voting MoS because he said it looked contrived. That has little to do with how long it takes. It seems strange to vote someone purely for disagreeing with their argumentation, especially since he hasn't really pushed the Zindy thing all that much.

I'm going to throw out a complete Condorcet list according to my gut feelings.

Vote: Skruffs

, Battle Mage, IH, Adele, [xyzzy, Tamuz, foolinc] [Zindaras, LML, Gaspar, Talitha], Thesp, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, Pooky, [PlaysWithSquirrels, Cubsfan4ever, MGM, CES]

[Battle Mage]

Vitr-how do you suppose my comments are endorsing a wagon, when i have made it quite clear that LML is not the best lynch today. At this rate, you will accuse anyone who points out scumtells, but doesnt immediately hop on a BW, to be scummy, which is completely ridiculous.

Pooky's post 440 has a very good point actually-especially with deadline so close. interesting to note i think.

In response to IH's questions:

1. This is pretty obvious really. If you know someone is likely to cast a vote for you, and you are scum, it makes some sense to pre-empt this, meaning that should the inevitable vote come, you can disregard that players suspicion as OMGUS.

2. I would answer that question, but since my overall opinion of Skruffs now is that he is protown, my original comment is pretty obsolete. If it really matters to you i will go back and dig up what i originally saw, but if its not necessary, i cba...

3. In my opinion, putting someone at -4 is pretty dumb. I mean, its unlikely that a lynch will happen, but as you can see, 2 others quickly hopped on afterwards. I mainly got a bad vibe about the vote itself, but the positioning had a part to play.

4. I'm pretty sure Skruffs was at L-2 for a time. Again, if you know otherwise, please tell me. Being wrong isn't a scumtell. lol

5. DP had reasons for BWing Jeep, but from what i can gather from my own comments, those reasons were either copied, or very very 'suspect'.

6. Hey-didnt you just accuse me of trying to cast bogus suspicion onto people without committing to a vote? strange how comments like that come back and bite you in the butt, eh?
Metagame evidence is often only valid for the individual who has that experience. I cannot refer to ongoing games, as even if nobody here is playing in those games, information here will probably leak, and it will ruin those games for everyone. If you don't believe me, why dont you go and find some COMPLETED games of Oman's in order to refute my claims. I mean, you love metagaming proof right?

7. You think me naming post numbers in order to make it clearer for the rest of you, is a scumtell? ROFLMAO! I'm not quite sure how i have 'OMGUSed my way onto a vote list', as i've only voted for 2 people since joining, and as i'm pretty sure that 1 of them wasnt even voting for me. I might be wrong, but then, just because someone is voting for me, does that make them confirmed town?
Oh and me ignoring the case on Jeep is BS, as i have shown recognition of it multiple times. If i didnt KNOW he was protown, he would probably have been fairly high on my suspect list. As i do KNOW he was protown, i am naturally very wary of the arguments that are being manufactured against him.

8. Rofl. You've never used information from ongoing games before? I mean, what the hell would you do in my position? Quote from an ongoing game, thus ruining it for everyone, and probably getting myself banned?
Yeah, that would suit you just great wouldnt it.

9. Just a sec. You want to lynch me for unvoting? omfg dude, get a brain cell or 2....

i didnt realise i had reset my concordet list, but i will redo it again in a sec.

BM

^ouch^. Thats a hella scummy post right there...
Appeal to Emotion in bucketloads!

I actually found this quite scummy. Endorsing a wagon without voting, but using the "appeal to emotion"-justification to kick someone when they're down.

No. Not at all. It's not him being vocal and loud about it. It's what he's accusing people of. I don't like him saying that a question about a bah post is scummy. I don't like him saying that MoS went out of his way to look like dice tags, even though it has been stated MULTIPLE times that it would take all of three minutes to do so.

The latter part of your sentence isn't really true. LML is voting MoS because he said it looked contrived. That has little to do with how long it takes. It seems strange to vote someone purely for disagreeing with their argumentation, especially since he hasn't really pushed the Zindy thing all that much.

I'm going to throw out a complete Condorcet list according to my gut feelings.

Vote: Skruffs

, Battle Mage, IH, Adele, [xyzzy, Tamuz, foolinc] [Zindaras, LML, Gaspar, Talitha], Thesp, Dragon Phoenix, logicticus, Pooky, [PlaysWithSquirrels, Cubsfan4ever, MGM, CES]

[Mgm]

How do you guys feel about the potential predictive abilities of dream?
I dreamt about this game last night (you know you're playing too much mafia-thread material?) and in the dream LML was a scumbucket.

I'm considering switching to LML if keeping my vote on BM doesn't ensure a lynch just to see if my subconcious is any good at catching scum.

[Talitha]

@MgM
The question is, now that your subconscious has bought it to your attention, does your conscious agree?

[Battle Mage]

How do you guys feel about the potential predictive abilities of dream?
I dreamt about this game last night (you know you're playing too much mafia-thread material?) and in the dream LML was a scumbucket.

I'm considering switching to LML if keeping my vote on BM doesn't ensure a lynch just to see if my subconcious is any good at catching scum.

actually, i sometimes get visions like that. Sometimes they are right, but sometimes they arent. In my experience its probably better to use logic first, and perhaps use the dream to back up that logic. I do find it a little coincidental that you NOW want to switch to LML, just as IH has done the same thing.

[Zindaras]

Are you sure Skruffs made it to Lynch -2?

If I am correct, Skruffs never made it that far. Two people who were already voting him voted again to change their Condorcet lists.

I'd like to note that although IH says he wants BM to die in 438, he puts BM behind Lee on his Condorcet list, which actually means he's keeping BM alive that way.

If i didnt KNOW he was protown, he would probably have been fairly high on my suspect list. As i do KNOW he was protown, i am naturally very wary of the arguments that are being manufactured against him.

If he had been high up on your list if you hadn't known his alignment, then the arguments aren't being manufactured (which has quite the negative connotation). Then the arguments are good.

Also, Mgm, that's rather silly.

[Mgm]

@MgM
The question is, now that your subconscious has bought it to your attention, does your conscious agree?

My concious is unsure. I believe I should vote BM, but what I've seen from LML means he's now a close second with Logicticus.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Except for PR3, which was a bit of an exception anyways, any game witwh two families referenced those families in the first post. Maybe there are tons of games that break the mold, but these are the games I have had experience with.

Goats Mafia didn't and it had 2 mafias and 1 SK. There's no particular reason for the first post to tell you how many mafias there are.

I didn’t like MgM’s opening vote of CES. It looked like an attempt to protect himself from an inevitable vote (no respectable player likes to resort to OMGUS).

At the time of his vote, I was already busy bandwagonning, so I was quite unlikely to vote for him at that time. In fact, if he wanted to avoid getting voted for, the best thing to do was to vote for a respectable someone who hadn't posted who might choose Mgm for his/her opening vote if your reasoning was correct.

I doubt it is though, as I don't really see people avoiding OMGUS votes. I certainly don't shy away from them.

When I read Jeep's bit, I agreed: scum don't do stuff that makes them look scummy on purpose, duuuh.
When I read CES's bit, I agreed: scum do do stuff that'll help them achieve their WC, duuuh.
Have I adequately summarised your positions? I think that might be a disagreement caused by confusion over the meaning of "pro-scum".

What meaning would jeep then subscribe to, exactly?

Please pay close attention to the wording here - this is a subtle point, a freudian slip. "If I mention a second family, this implies that there is a first" - as if he's talking not about how things might be, but how they are.

I think we can be assured at least one mafia group, Adele. This isn't particularly compelling. The wording doesn't suggest the definite existence of two families, as far as I can see.

Pssshhhht
^^^^The sound of a hole being poked in a case.

Not at all. If you were part of a 3-player mafia, wouldn't you expect there to be another mafia? I definitely would. (I still don't agree with the case though.)

[Zindaras]

Or because Condorcet voting only matters if we make it to the deadline. There's no particular reason why we'd have to make a list to accompany our votes in this game as opposed to other games at this point.

I will happily make a list if and when the deadline nears, but to do soon would be excessive.

I think this is close enough to deadline to make a list, Cessy.