Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!

[pwayne66]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #2

Dr. Blackstrike[3](Trojan Horse, curiouskarmadog, Flameaxe)
Flameaxe[3](Rump-Wat, Oman, Dr. Blackstrike)
Trojan Horse[2](vollkan, tyhess)


Not Voting[4](Mastermind of Sin, ac1983fan, theopor_COD, pwayne66)

Stream of conscieness is 5...4...3...2...1

The way I see it, if there 5 vanillas, and the cult is blind, the cult has a 50/50 shot at a successful recruit N1. (you may have to do some fancy figuring to get around the odds of a townie getting lynched and NK and recruited then nightkilled, but roughly I think 50/50 is close.)

At night the mafia has three avenues. NK a vanilla, NK a power role or NK a cultist. Regardless, the mafia wins if a NK is successful. The town can win at night if the mafia NK a cultist and the cult fails to recruit (this is the ideal scenerio)

The cult can't do anything to stop the Mafia except to play ball during the day and try to lynch scum. In this respect, the goals of the Cult and the Town are the same. At night, the NEED vanillas. They need at least enough to have the advantage when the town eliminates the all the scum.

And now the town. Where do we stand? Lynching scum, and lynching cult is the main objective. The cult is only going to get harder to take out, so I see that as priority #1.

While there may be instances where lynching vanilla is of benefit, I think those instances are rare. But yes, we are better of we dead vanillas then recruited vanillas.


/SOC off

[pwayne66]

In a way, I see where the Doc is coming from. If we manage a situation where there are no vanilla townies, and all pro-town power roles, we manage to defeat the cult. The only problem is this: I can see no way to reach this situation on purpose. It almost requires the cooperation of the mafia (I doubt we can get that) and then only works if the cult doesn't recruit during the 3 days that it would take to eliminate all the nillas. (that is three days assuming that the town lynches vanilla every day and the mafia NK vanilla every night)

[Trojan Horse]

Well now. I'm a tad surprised to log in this morning, and see all these posts having been made since my last one. This should be a good game.

To weigh in on what has been discussed; obviously, our top priority is lynching either culties or mafia. The one thing I don't want us to get hung up on is the "oh, this person claimed vanilla, he might be culted, lynch lynch" thing; I don't want the mafia to be able to claim power roles and get a free pass. We should lynch whoever seems likeliest to be a bad guy, whether they have claimed vanilla or not.

Then again, if a claimed vanilla seems cultish, then of course we should lynch them. Who knows; we may even hit the recruiter, and then we'll really be in good shape.

Vote Mastermind of Sin, get into the game man..

Hmm... lemme go see if MoS is posting elsewhere. Not like him to not get in a post on the first couple of pages...

[Trojan Horse]

Okay, MoS posted a bunch of times (in other games) yesterday evening. So he's definitely around.

[tyhess]

Vote: Dr. Blackstrike

Because he is acting weird imo. Everthing he's saying is acting a little.......off center..

[tyhess]

Vote: Dr. Blackstrike

Because he is acting weird imo. Everthing he's saying is acting a little.......off center..

[tyhess]

that didn't work out......and i can't figure out how to edit my posts?????

[Trojan Horse]

Good. 'Cause you're not allowed to.

[pwayne66]

I am failing to follow the logic behind the Dr. Blackstrike bandwagon. Some think he is too culty and some think he is too scummy. Some did so in order to stimulate discussion despite the fact that the doc seems to be talking alright without stimulation.

Curious considering there are a number of people that have failed to post anything at all or at least anything other thatn a random vote but aren't raising any kind of attention. So as it goes, we are rewarding non-contributers, punishing contributers and creating an atmosphere where people are afraid to post their thoughts. Any speculation who that benefits?

[Flameaxe]

I'm gonna have to agree with this post entirely. Everything I've heard from you has been from a 'culty' point of view. You just really seem like you don't want to help the town that much and are more worried about eliminating the amount of recruitable townies...aka...the vanilla ones...

Sigh. Did you read my responce, above yours?

No, not at the time I posted. When I hit "post reply" the last post was CKD's. Simulposting FTW.

I'm not advocating

lynching

townies as much as I'm advocating

them trying to be killed in the night by the mafia.

Why? I repeat, because it's another night that has gone by without a power role dying and one less potential cultist.

Wouldn't a townie want the mafia to kill the CULTISTS...so the town could, I dunno. Win?

I'm not sure I like how you play either.

UNVOTE, Vote Flameaxe

-Doc "Thanks for the votes guys, glad to see I'm so popular" Blackstrike

I'm taking a new approach for this game than I have in the past. (Oman can tell you I lurked my way to victory in N417. Haha I beat you )
Yes, I am playing pretty aggressive early on, I'll admit it. But clearly my vote did as I said I was hoping it would do... :

I'm not a fan of your play...and I think pressure would be a nice discussion starter right now...Unvote, Vote: Dr. Blackstrike

-BBM-

[Flameaxe]

While there may be instances where lynching vanilla is of benefit, I think those instances are rare. But yes, we are better of we dead vanillas then recruited vanillas.

To me, this strategy just seems like the cult is all that matters here. THERE IS STILL A MAFIA, AND THEY DO HAVE A WIN CONDITION. Lynching vanillas fights back against the cultists, but is basically helping the mafia get closer to a win.

[curiouskarmadog]

Just for the sake of all of us being on the same vernacular. “scum” includes, mafia, cult, SK…anyone not protown. So when I say someone is “scummy” I mean they could be mafia or in the cult.

I think your post is slightly inaccurate. What exactly are you doing to bring light to non-contributors except for this post? Have you asked for prods? Are you currently voting non posters to get them going? You are posting but I don’t find you scummy (yet) and I am not attacking you. You don’t see how Dr. BS’s post could be taken as scummy? I am “attacking” him because of his scummy behavior not because he is posting….however, I do not want this bandwagon to get out of control (yet) and prematurely end the Day quickly..

Unvote Dr. Blackstrike

Rereading Dr. BS first post on the subject. I think I read when he wrote “townie” as “anyone on the town side”…I think he met “vanilla town”…if I reread his post and think “vanilla town” I can see what he is saying(sort of). But I dont think I agree with it….he hasn’t really answered my question, how should townies make themselves ripe for a NK kill? Ideally, wouldn’t we want the mafia to hit the Cult Night 1?


Pwayne is right though, there are too many lurkers in this game. I would like some of the non posters thus far comment on the game. Mainly I am curious what people have to say about Dr. BS’s theory that the vanilla townies in our town should make themselves ripe for a mafia NK. Maybe there is a tactic here that I am looking over.

Mod is it too early to ask for prods?

[pwayne66]

You don’t see how Dr. BS’s post could be taken as scummy?

I can see how somebody would think this is scummy, but they I think they would be wrong. He has stated that sacrificing vanilla townies in favor of losing power roles is preferable. He is right. He has stated that a dead townie is better than a culty townie. He is right. He has stated that townies ought to get themselves lynched intentionally in order to avoid losing power roles. Here, he is wrong. Not scummy, just wrong.

As far as what I have done to get the other talking. Nothing. I have been more focused on figuring out the logistics of this game. I am just arguing that we put aside the "gotcha" politics for a moment and determine a course of action. My only point about the other lurkers was this: if somebody wants to stimulate conversation, as flameaxe has claimed, why put pressure on one of the few guys talking. If I were playing gotcha politics right now, I would jump all over that.

[Flameaxe]

I put pressure on someone who I found scummy. If the people that haven't said anything are choosing to lurk, there is a good chance not much discussion will come out of putting pressure on them, and they will quickly defend themselves until we back off. At that point, its lurking time again!

DR. BS's posts stood out to me, and I found them to be scummy. No one else has really popped out as more scummy so far, so I'm perfectly happy with my vote as of now.

[Oman]

The blatent OMGUS aside by Dr. BS (I got it too CKD)

I think our good doctor has tried (and phailed!) to come up with a good plan. The logic is there, that a NKed vanillia is not a powerrole killed and cultist gone, but he did say lynch, whether that was a slipup (which I doubt) or not I'm not sure.

The one reason I think he mispoke was he said "Try to get lynched by mafia" the mafia don't lynch on their own, nor do they control the lynch in a majority. I think he mispoke and for that I'll look at flameaxe:

Everything I've heard from you has been from a 'culty' point of view.

This is quite simply, wrong. Why would the cult put forward an idea to weaken itself?

and I think pressure would be a nice discussion starter right now...

We're discussing already. This seems like a bad excuse for a vote.

Wouldn't a townie want the mafia to kill the CULTISTS...so the town could, I dunno. Win?

He's saying that any confirmed/claimed vanillia is a perfect cult recruit target. So he's treating vanillias as potential cultists

Lynching vanillas fights back against the cultists, but is basically helping the mafia get closer to a win.

Actually, the best claim for scum is vanillia. A) The cult will try to recruit them and fail. B) the Town will not lynch them (using your reasoning). Vanillia's are pretty much an anti-town claim here. Although a real vanillia would have no reason to lie....hmmm....

Unvote Vote Flameaxe

[Trojan Horse]

Ya know what?

Unvote: Dr. Blackstrike

Not sure I want to lynch a guy just for being slightly mistaken about what strategy we should use. My eye is still on him (so BEWARE ), but I'll give him a pass for now.

I had a thought: how on earth are we going to handle claims at the start of the game? Once we've reached a consensus on who is scummy, should we demand a claim from that person? If we do, and that person says "townie", we're in a bit of a pickle. It may well be best to lynch them; they may be lying, and even if they're not, it'll deny the cult a possible recruit.

Uh-oh. Am I agreeing with Dr. Blackstrike now?

The point is, we need to be careful about making roleclaims. They give info to both the mafia and the cult, but the cult can benefit more from those claims, apparently.

I teach a class in 3 min. Gotta run. If what I said isn't clear, I'll try to clarify later.

[Flameaxe]

A very good portion of the page 2 chatter, Oman, was responses to the edit sig, and everyone wanting to point out that "this setup is different than most that I've played, so I don't really know whats going on yet...". My post, to me, really did spark more discussion about what is going on in the game, rather than just the setup. As for using that as a "bad excuse to vote someone", read more of my posts. Clearly, it wasn't JUST a discussion vote. If it was, I probably wouldn't have kept criticizing his actions.

I don't think lynching vanillas is a good idea. Period. Lets get the cult recruiter D1 so we don't even have to worry bout it. Kk?

(ps. Oman you were already voting me...so you unvoted me to vote me again. Thanks!)

[tyhess]

I am going to keep my vote on the doctor. His posts just seem, well, weird. However, I find myself agreeing with him (like Trojan Horse) about the voting. I think he has a valid point, but the way it was posted seemed to pro-scum

[Rump-Wat]

Wow... sorry I'm not posting. (I didn't know if you were referring to me, but in any case I don't need a prod.) I was watching cement workers redo my family's sidewalk, then I was busy with other things yesterday.

I actually made this post over five hours ago, but my internet stopped working.

Anyway, I've got some reading to do.

[vollkan]

I had a thought: how on earth are we going to handle claims at the start of the game? Once we've reached a consensus on who is scummy, should we demand a claim from that person? If we do, and that person says "townie", we're in a bit of a pickle. It may well be best to lynch them; they may be lying, and even if they're not, it'll deny the cult a possible recruit.

I said this back in post #34.

At this stage of the game, I think the only real difference the cult makes to play strategy is that it provides a good reason for lynching claimed vanillas. A vanilla lynch is still very bad, because it helps the scum, but it is better than the cult gaining members.

I don't think lynching vanillas is a good idea. Period. Lets get the cult recruiter D1 so we don't even have to worry bout it. Kk?

Easier said than done.

I'm gonna have to agree with this post entirely. Everything I've heard from you has been from a 'culty' point of view. You just really seem like you don't want to help the town that much and are more worried about eliminating the amount of recruitable townies...aka...the vanilla ones...

I'm not a fan of your play...and I think pressure would be a nice discussion starter right now...Unvote, Vote: Dr. Blackstrike

Hang on. You are saying that BS sounds 'culty' because he wants to eliminate the vanillas? And you voted on the basis of this.

While there may be instances where lynching vanilla is of benefit, I think those instances are rare. But yes, we are better of we dead vanillas then recruited vanillas.

To me, this strategy just seems like the cult is all that matters here. THERE IS STILL A MAFIA, AND THEY DO HAVE A WIN CONDITION. Lynching vanillas fights back against the cultists, but is basically helping the mafia get closer to a win.

You're misrepresenting what was said. Pwayne was clearly not calling for the lynch of vanillas, he was saying (as I have been also) that a dead vanilla is better than a claimed and therefore recruited vanilla.

I'm not advocating lynching townies as much as I'm advocating them trying to be killed in the night by the mafia. Why? I repeat, because it's another night that has gone by without a power role dying and one less potential cultist.

Wouldn't a townie want the mafia to kill the CULTISTS...so the town could, I dunno. Win?

There are real problems with vanillas trying to be NKed, I addressed those earlier. Of course, ideally the mafia will NK the cultists, but second to that the best thing is for the mafia to NK vanillas. It means we don't lose our power roles and it makes the cult's job more difficult.

Flame's voting basis is ridiculous. His subsequent attempts to justify it on the basis of pressure ignore the fact that discussion was happening anyway. Plus, he seems adamantly against the lynching of vanillas. "Period".

Unvote, Vote: Flameaxe

[Flameaxe]

Tell me right now, what is the fucking problem with not wanting to lynch vanillas? Nothing wrong with trying to lynch the goddamn scum.

Yes, I read my former post with my vote of DrBS, and I don't know what the hell I was talking about. I don't like my own post, which isn't really a good thing for me. As for using his 'culty' behavior wasn't my reason behind my vote. I don't like the way he was playing at the time. The way he (and alot of people so far) have been viewing this game is that it is Town Vs. Cult. I don't really like repeating myself so many times like this, but what the hell. Mafia. That should be all I have to say.

Well my point is that townies are the lifeblood of the cult and if all the townies die than the cult is nuetralized.

This is what I mean by my last statement. (Note: This post was BEFORE i attacked Dr. BS, post 33) We get rid of the townies in order to get rid of the cult correct. This leaves the mafia with an easy win, cool. I just don't think we should view a vanilla lynch as "That sucks...but it's ok, just means the cult has less recruits." Get rid of the cult recruiter early, get rid of the scum later, win.

If you still think my vote was entirely baseless, please go back to pages 1 and 2 and read some of the things he had to say. They all look necessarily
anti-town to me. (Not from the culty perspective exactly, but anti-town.)

My vote will stand.

[vollkan]

Tell me right now, what is the fucking problem with not wanting to lynch vanillas? Nothing wrong with trying to lynch the goddamn scum.

Nobody is calling for the lynch of all vanillas; that's a strawman you have raised.

Let me make this perfectly clear to you: A lynch of a mafia or cult leader is great. That is what we want. However, if someone claims vanilla then it makes sense to lynch them, since they will in all likelihood be culted. It is not that vanilla lynches are good, nobody except the mafia will want a vanilla lynch, but it is a practical necessity in a cult game.

The way he (and alot of people so far) have been viewing this game is that it is Town Vs. Cult. I don't really like repeating myself so many times like this, but what the hell. Mafia. That should be all I have to say.

Way back in #34 I even said:

Plus, remember that even if the vanilla lynches hurt the cult, they help the mafia. There are two enemies we need to consider.

And you know what, in BS's next post he admitted I was correct. His plan was anti-town, sure, but he abandoned it once it was pointed out and it really just looks like a honest mistake.

Since then, nobody has said "Vanilla lynches are good" and ignored the mafia. The point, which you evidently miss, is that a dead vanilla is better than a claimed vanilla who will get recruited.

Get rid of the cult recruiter early, get rid of the scum later, win.

Your logic is just so wrong. You seem to be saying that we should not lynch claimed vanillas but we should lynch the cult recruiter. Fine. Let's say person X is the recruiter. If X is put at L-1, I wonder what role X will claim....vanilla most likely.

If you can explain to me how we go about lynching the recruiter (or Mafia) and being certain that they are the recruiter/mafia then I would love to hear it.

If you still think my vote was entirely baseless, please go back to pages 1 and 2 and read some of the things he had to say. They all look necessarily
anti-town to me. (Not from the culty perspective exactly, but anti-town.)

You've admitted the culty label was wrong.

His plan was anti-town, but he abandoned it once I pointed out how flawed it was. That said, he was correct about lynching claimed vanillas and he was right to suggest that vanillas being NKed is a good way for the cult to be weakened (though his plan was deeply flawed in terms of execution).

[Flameaxe]

Nobody is calling for the lynch of all vanillas; that's a strawman you have raised.

Let me make this perfectly clear to you: A lynch of a mafia or cult leader is great. That is what we want. However, if someone claims vanilla then it makes sense to lynch them, since they will in all likelihood be culted. It is not that vanilla lynches are good, nobody except the mafia will want a vanilla lynch, but it is a practical necessity in a cult game.

1. Where did this 'all' come from? Lynching Vanillas in general help scum, lynching all of them just loses us the game.
2. As for your explanation, fair enough.

And you know what, in BS's next post he admitted I was correct. His plan was anti-town, sure, but he abandoned it once it was pointed out and it really just looks like a honest mistake.

But it still happened.

Your logic is just so wrong. You seem to be saying that we should not lynch claimed vanillas but we should lynch the cult recruiter. Fine. Let's say person X is the recruiter. If X is put at L-1, I wonder what role X will claim....vanilla most likely.

No, you just don't understand what I am trying to say, its quite simple actually. Get rid of the recruiter early, then we will have less to worry about when it comes to cult affairs. I am not trying to say that there is a 100% chance of us finding him today, although, the people who are currently lurking talking will be of some help finding this.

His plan was anti-town, but he abandoned it once I pointed out how flawed it was. That said, he was correct about lynching claimed vanillas and he was right to suggest that vanillas being NKed is a good way for the cult to be weakened (though his plan was deeply flawed in terms of execution).

See above.

Maybe my logic is off, but this is the way I think. Oh well. Plus, I feel that I've explained my vote before well enough in my opinion, but I'm gonna

unvote: Dr. Blackstrike

for now, at least until I hear some thoughts from him.

-BBM-

[Oman]

I think that we shouldn't force townies to claim, but lynching them isn't too bad an idea.

1. It will be the mafia's number 1 claim, unknown number and will help them beat the cult (when the cult recruits them they will fail).

2. They are/will be cultists.

Of course, I suggest we go after the scum first as they can NK the cultists to help their win.

These 3 faction games are interesting as the scum should go after the cult, as they will grow, making it hard if not impossible to get the 50% endgame, while town goes down/stays stable.

Hmmmm....

[theopor_COD]

Hi.

First off many apologies, I read my PM about a week ago, didn't see the thread and completely forgot about the game until this morning. Fear not it's been added to watched topics.

Secondly I need to read, but why have several ppl attacked MoS for not appearing and not say Rump-Wat or myself. Seems kinda odd.