Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[Muerrto]

A) The whole thing about how I restate other's words but twist them? I didn't quite see that.

I gave an example. I think that showed it. Like I said, you do it very slightly.

Yes and I responded to that example and stated that not only do I not see it that way but that DO's post that you cited was the whole reason everyone jumped on him. So everyone saw it the way I did and you're only now saying I twisted his words? Hindsight again? I'm sorry but if not a single person noticed my 'slight' twist, including yourself, how can you now go back and say it was a twist just because we now know DO's role(well for the most part we know)?

Now granted you may be right but can you take 2 similar situations and see them that juxtaposed? Doesn't make sense to me.

They are not the same at all. Nelly was CLEARLY town to me..he was acting exactly like frustrated town. VH? Not as much. Maybe slightly newbie but maybe not.

CLEARLY town...to you. Except there's quite a few other people playing that don't see it that way, including myself. But my point is that you're excusing newbie mistakes in Nelly and not in VH. Ignoring all other context and circumstances, at the core that's what you're doing. Now your suspiscions and opinions are what are enabling you to do that but what if your suspiscions are wrong? You're still applying a double standard to VH/Nelly.

As for Sauce, as I mentioned earlier, read back and you'll see that didn't exist.

Are you saying you weren't suspicious of Sauce? I can definitely quote exactly where you said that you were MOST worried about him.

Not at all. I know the post you're referencing and you conveniently left out the reason WHY I suspected him so I'll save you the trouble and quote it for you.

And finally, Sauce. He actually worries me the most. He posted a total of three times between my WIFOM post and his vote for me. He was the last to jump on my wagon before Omen jumped on and everyone else jumped off. He didn't vote Omen, just FoS'ed him so he's not quite as vote happy as the other 3. But he continues to misunderstand what I mean by slowing down the game. Did Khev calling for a lynch -2 on Omen before he can even defend himself show you what I mean by slowing down the game? Not content, voting.

The reason why he worries me the most is that so far out of the 4 that voted me he seems the most dangerous. He didn't blatantly vote me immediately. He waited, watched the argument build, then voted. Now the fact that he UNvoted me seems to help a little but IGMEOY, you seem crafty. That's a great skill to have as town, and a nasty one as scum.

Worries. Not saying he's scum, saying if he IS scum he seems like he'd be good. He then responded saying the same thing about me. I watch good players closely because I want them on my side. I even stated that earlier in the game when I was talking about if I'm a cop I investigate someone I want to know if I can trust or not, not necessarily someone I think is scum.

Then later:

3. Sauce. No real content. Maybe this is some OMGUS but with no real content and seeming to just have it out for me he bothers me.

I even said it was for OMGUS so I really don't like the way you stated that last part about me denying it.

****************************************************

9th Vote Count of Day 2


Nelly632 - 1 (somestrangeflea)

VampaneseHunter - 3 (SeraphicMirth, vampyrusddg, Aimee)

Aimee - 1 (death_omen)
Muerrto - 1 (Nelly632)


Not Voting: - 4 (Hjallti, Muerrto, Plessiez, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch before deadline, 3 at deadline

[death_omen]

Ok the deadline has pratically passed where I live, I am going to go with my instincts at the beginning of today.

Vote: Aimee

As Malchonn replace'e and he sounded the most scummy and I am pretty sure this guy is scum.

[Aimee]

Ok the deadline has pratically passed where I live, I am going to go with my instincts at the beginning of today.

Vote: Aimee

As Malchonn replace'e and he sounded the most scummy and I am pretty sure this guy is scum.

Could you actually give some reasons, because as far as I know all I have seen is "Malconn scum! Malconn scum!", which isn't exactly an optimal argument at this stage.

[Aimee]

Nelly has been the centre of many debates over recent pages, but I really feel the frustrated townie outlook from him. I can tell he was angry and annoyed at the way things had happened, and whilst I don't agree with his points (concerning the hammer), I really feel that his behaviour in recent pages shows he was a frustrated and annoyed townie.

Because of this view and your view on VH, I place you in the same camp as Seraph. Why excuse Nelly for newbie mistakes and not do the same for VH? I'm still waiting for Vampdog's opinion on the situation and his opinion of my opinion(that's alot of opinions) of VH because I've known him a while, played with him in alot of games, and as I said above, we usually see things in a similar light. I'd like to know if he thinks I'm sheltering VH by excusing his mistakes.

Ultimately, if you see Nelly's behaviour in recent pages, it reeks frustrated townie. I don't really see any of this referring to him being a "newbie". It's quite clear on re-reading (example: self-voting), that he was frustrated and angry at the way things were happening.

VampanezeHunter is different. As I explained, he has had numerous story changes and been wildly inconsistent. These, amongst other things he has done, which I documented in my previous post, lead me to think scummy.

I'm having trouble understanding the comparison here, since Nelly and VH are quite clearly not in the same boat at the moment.

However, I feel that sometimes he can get turned away to more irrelevant issues, for example the WIFOM debate. Of all players, Muerrto’s slightly over-bearing style has without a doubt got him into the most feuds in this game, leading to, amongst other things, the breakdown of Nelly. I’m not sure whether these feuds are beneficial – if they were at scum, then it could out them, but at the same time I’m sensing they could be doing more harm than good.

Anywho, about the second part I completely disagree. Nelly started off day 2 basically saying 'shrug, we screwed up'. When called on the hammer he acted like it was nothing. He said he was trying to stop Khel from RC'ing. All of this is horrible. By keeping on top of him I finally got him to realise WHY the hammer was bad. Because if he really IS town he's brought ALOT of suspiscion on himself for it. I wasn't TRYING to break him down but sadly sometimes it happens. What I did do is alleviate some of my suspiscions and some of other people's hopefully as well.

I think this is a bit of a playstyle difference here - obviously we are probably going to butt heads here, but I found your Nelly offensive to be slightly too offensive at the end (although at the start I had no problem).

Anyway, my main worry about playstyles like this is that the scum can easily slip through without being noticed, which can prove difficult later.

Agree with Plessiez – in post 281, he votes for Khel even though he finds Omen more suspicious. This is blatant bandwagoning. He later seems to admit he is voting for those he doesn’t find suspicious. On Day 1 with no deadline, this is scummy.

Um...I said in that post I'd vote for either one. I said my vote stands on Khel because he was hurting the town more with his tunneling and he was. I also said 'I still think both will come up town sadly'. That's a far cry from thinking they're town and voting them.

What you said:

Neither are helping the town, both could be scum, both probably ARE town. But if we keep fighting back and forth between just those two we'll never get anywhere.

So you say that they are probably town, yet could be scum. This implies far more that you think they are town. And as I said before, voting for people you find to be town, especially on Day 1, is stupid.

FoS: Aimee

I don't like the way you're twisting what actually occured and by posting post#'s instead of quotes it seems you're hoping no one's checking into it.

I don't really think this is fair. I got all of this ready in a day, read through the entire game and made my own notes from that. I wrote post numbers and since we are so close to the deadline, and because my post was long enough, I didn't want to shove 15 million quotes in.

I’m also nervous about several possible scum partnerships for Muerrto. Once, he answered Vampyrusddg’s question for him, and he has rather consistently defended VampanezeHunter. Any information about these things can only be gleamed from the lynching, killing, or investigation result, but after that, I believe a more thorough and clear representation of Muerrto’s alignment can be drawn. Overall, I think he could go either way at this point, but his alignment will be more easy to determine later in the game.

So you're so convinced I'm scum you're looking for partnerships and yet below you FoS and vote completely different people? This seems like trying to throw suspiscion on me without actually making a move to do anything about it. So that when I come up town you can say you didn't vote for me because you weren't sure. That's scummy.

Er, no, sorry. Nice try though.

Here are examples of the conclusions I got about you.

For me, Muerrto’s style is puzzling. I’m not always 100% about where I stand with him, sometimes suspicious, yet other times whole-heartedly agree with him.

Overall, I think he could go either way at this point, but his alignment will be more easy to determine later in the game.

As you can quite obviously see, I consider you neutral at this point. My opinion of you is neutral, since at times I find you scummy, but other times I find you overwhelmingly town.

Similarly, I don't believe the way that I could see partnerships with Vampaneze or Vampy as scummy

now

, but if we lynched one and they came up scum, I would be more convinced that you were scum as a result.

You keep talking about scum hunting but then don't vote or even FoS for the person you think is scummy. Now granted after you read this you probably will FoS or vote me because I called you on it but it's a bit late at that point.

You quite clearly didn't read my post.

I said several times that my opinion of you is neutral. Conversely, I believe the 3 people I voted/FoSed are scummy. I'm not quite sure what your point here is. I voted or FoSed those I found scummy. I said I found you neutral. Therefore I didn't FoS or vote for you.

Surprisingly, I am very suspicious of Vampyrusddg. In the beginning, he was very vocal in the random stage, but quietened down dramatically when the game actually started. He clearly throughout the game has not been scumhunting to his capacity – this is inherently scummy.

Overall, I really think more attention needs to be paid to vampyrusddg, who has so far managed to slide through without doing much of anything in terms of scumhunting. I think he could easily be scum at this stage.

Sigh. I suppose I'm going to get flack for defending someone again but I know his personal standings right now and he's not able to post alot at the moment. He should be back in full swing soon though. He's usually quite involved and another one who likes type up essays instead of 1 liners. Your predecessor, Malchonn, is in the same situation and it could be said of you(him but now you) that you've been lurking pretty badly all game as well(as I said in my last post). Because you know your role you excuse yourself and Malchonn but doesn't that hold for Vampdog as well? I really don't like the double standards people are using for their arguments lately.

Er, no. Nice try, though.

Here's my middle paragraph, of the content why I'm suspicious of Vampy.

I don’t like post 105 – he jumps on the wagon against death_omen, but just rehashes old arguments and doesn’t add anything of his own onto that. Hate post 188 emphasises his greying attitude and strategy – “I’m here just watching”, he says, without actually doing any scum-hunting. Post 245 – he votes for Khelvaster while saying Nelly is suspicious. Seems like blatant bandwagon hopping to me, since it would make most sense to vote for Nelly. In that post he had made no reference to Khelvaster, so the vote on him is bizarre. Post 332 – he suggests that he would be happy with Khel, Sauce and Vampaneze. Fairly safe picks, and as I said before, I don’t see any scum-hunting going on. Although I like his post 358 against Nelly, I find it interesting that in 374 he has the time to explain WIFOM, but not scum-hunt at all, especially concerning the Muerrto/Nelly feud of the time. Similarly, whilst I really agree with his 402 post about roleblockers, the problem is, he isn’t actually scum hunting. It’s all the well telling people to find the mafia roleblocker, but it’s quite hypocritical when you yourself have done nothing to suggest this. And I absolutely hate his post 406. Basically, he says he has no read on anyone except Vampaneze and Nelly who he finds suspicious. This is a typical scum strategy, and incredibly non-committal. I also find him non committal when he gives his scum picks of 466 as Nelly, SM and VH/SSF, although admits everything else is just gut with the exception of Nelly.

As you can see, lurking plays basically no part in my suspicions of him. My suspicions are because of his lack of scum-hunting. I understand he may not have the best access right now, but if he can find the time to come on and explain WIFOM, and give a theory about the Mafia roleblocking, but not scum-hunt, then I find that scummy. Also note post 406, where an evident attempt to post content comes across as highly non-committal.

So overall, there is no scum-hunting, nothing. Hjallti has been hiding, and nothing has been done about it. The time has come for Hjallti to start looking for scum.

Now Hjalti may be in the same situation and I see he IS actually gone right now till 9/3 according to his latest post. But before that he's been pretty much lurking and following all game and since I DON'T know his personal situation I do suspect him for it. I suppose that's somewhat of a double standard but knowing Vampdog and Malch outside of just this game means I have the insider information to have that double standard. Without that extra info I don't see how you can blast someone for lurking and not someone else.

But I am NOT blasting them for lurking. I am blasting them for not-scum-hunting, as I said throughout the post before and this post.

Malchonn wasn't innocent in this either, but I did actually see scum-hunting from him, as his FoSes on Hjallti, and his early suspicion on Khelvaster demonstrate.

Overall a great post. Again, good to see people who participate. I'll have to re-read and check some other post #'s to see if you twisted anything else but I really, really didn't like the negative spin you put on some of the things I said and I'm glad I checked those posts out. In fact I wasn't checking post #'s till I came to the one where you said I said DO's post was scummy but didn't explain. I'm not known for short posts usually and I would've been pretty surprised to find you're right and I just said 'it's scummy', period. I think my post was self explanatory since I quoted the exact parts I was calling scummy.

Heh. I actually checked back, and post 266 was written by Death Omen! , and 265 doesn't contain what I thought it did. Oops.

There are probably a few other mistakes in there, but I hope you understand it was really hard getting all of that done in a day, and it's pretty much expected that anyone would make some sort of mistake doing a post of that size in such a short space of time. But I knew it had to be done yesterday, because of the deadline approaching.

[Muerrto]

Agree with Plessiez – in post 281, he votes for Khel even though he finds Omen more suspicious. This is blatant bandwagoning. He later seems to admit he is voting for those he doesn’t find suspicious. On Day 1 with no deadline, this is scummy.

Um...I said in that post I'd vote for either one. I said my vote stands on Khel because he was hurting the town more with his tunneling and he was. I also said 'I still think both will come up town sadly'. That's a far cry from thinking they're town and voting them.

What you said:

Neither are helping the town, both could be scum, both probably ARE town. But if we keep fighting back and forth between just those two we'll never get anywhere.

So you say that they are probably town, yet could be scum. This implies far more that you think they are town. And as I said before, voting for people you find to be town, especially on Day 1, is stupid.

You're really stretching here. When two people get into a fight like DO and Khel did it usually does mean they're both town. Everyone knows that. But does that mean we completely overlook the things they said and assume they ARE town? No way. How would we ever find scum? DO was voting for bad reasons, not defending himself, and constantly attacking Khel. Khel was 100% convinced he found a scum pair on page 2 and never let that go. He was wanting a speedlynch most of day 1 and wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone else being scum. Even if we're all pretty sure they're town because they're fighting so much, how do you simply ignore all the scum tells and not vote them?

I wasn't saying 'I think they're town'. I was saying 'They're most likely town', as in they always are town when they do this. There's a HUGE difference.

FoS: Aimee

I don't like the way you're twisting what actually occured and by posting post#'s instead of quotes it seems you're hoping no one's checking into it.

I don't really think this is fair. I got all of this ready in a day, read through the entire game and made my own notes from that. I wrote post numbers and since we are so close to the deadline, and because my post was long enough, I didn't want to shove 15 million quotes in.

No no. I didn't FoS you for the post #'s thing. My apologies. I hate replacing because I have to re-read everything and try to catch up. This is one hell of a game to replace into, especially with the deadline so props. The FoS was for the twisting my words. Now granted we ARE on a deadline so you have to stretch for suspiscions but you're stretching and not admitting you're strecthing. If you'd said 'well it's not much but we need something' that'd be one thing. But trying to say these reasons you posted are legitimate is what got you the FoS. Twisting around what I said to make me sound scummy when you definitely know what I meant when I said it is what got you the FoS.

You keep talking about scum hunting but then don't vote or even FoS for the person you think is scummy. Now granted after you read this you probably will FoS or vote me because I called you on it but it's a bit late at that point.

You quite clearly didn't read my post.

I said several times that my opinion of you is neutral. Conversely, I believe the 3 people I voted/FoSed are scummy. I'm not quite sure what your point here is. I voted or FoSed those I found scummy. I said I found you neutral. Therefore I didn't FoS or vote for you.

You also said you were trying to find scum partnerships with me. That says I'm neutral? That's far from neutral.


The rest I cut because I think my comment about the post #'s ticked you off and the rest of the post was getting a little more vehement. I'm not saying you suspect these people for lurking, I'm saying that if they have limited access, they also have limited time to scum hunt. Now as for the theory thing with Vampdog I again have to take his side. We think alike and enjoy a good debate about theory and playstyle etc. I could link quite a few times we've gotten into that kind of thing but I won't.

Anyway, I didn't suspect Malchonn except for his lurking which I understood and I don't suspect you. Coming in fresh and posting as much as you have is far from a scum tell. But I think the deadline spooked people and we're stretching for suspiscion. I'm still waiting for Vamps opinion of my take on VH and then I'll go from there. I think you implied alot more than 'neutral' on me in your post and I think denying it is shady. But I think we're also just clashing on playstyle differences and I'm willing to shake hands and walk away.

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok the deadline has pratically passed where I live

It was extended to the 8th of September...so...you live a week ahead of time??

[death_omen]

Ok the deadline has pratically passed where I live

It was extended to the 8th of September...so...you live a week ahead of time??

No, i live in a sub parallel universe that bypasses your simple one with ease..



Just Kiddin, didn't quite catch that bit. Anyways could everyone please give their prime suspects for todays lynch. Mine is Aimee, as Malchonn's replace'e.

1. Malchonn lurked and he lurked badly d1 and d2 before he stated he wanted to be replaced.

2. He never commented his own views into the game he always just built up what someone else would state.

Right now Im pretty sure on Aimme being the scum possibly along with either SM or VH.

Ps. I hate closed set up games!! It makes my mind think way to hard, we dont even know what we could/could not be facing in the distant future.

[Aimee]

You're really stretching here. When two people get into a fight like DO and Khel did it usually does mean they're both town. Everyone knows that.

Nope. Pure WIFOM speculation.

But does that mean we completely overlook the things they said and assume they ARE town? No way. How would we ever find scum? DO was voting for bad reasons, not defending himself, and constantly attacking Khel. Khel was 100% convinced he found a scum pair on page 2 and never let that go. He was wanting a speedlynch most of day 1 and wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone else being scum. Even if we're all pretty sure they're town because they're fighting so much, how do you simply ignore all the scum tells and not vote them?

Okay, are you suggesting that you considered them to be town because they were fighting?

FoS: Aimee

I don't like the way you're twisting what actually occured and by posting post#'s instead of quotes it seems you're hoping no one's checking into it.

I don't really think this is fair. I got all of this ready in a day, read through the entire game and made my own notes from that. I wrote post numbers and since we are so close to the deadline, and because my post was long enough, I didn't want to shove 15 million quotes in.

No no. I didn't FoS you for the post #'s thing. My apologies. I hate replacing because I have to re-read everything and try to catch up. This is one hell of a game to replace into, especially with the deadline so props. The FoS was for the twisting my words. Now granted we ARE on a deadline so you have to stretch for suspiscions but you're stretching and not admitting you're strecthing. If you'd said 'well it's not much but we need something' that'd be one thing. But trying to say these reasons you posted are legitimate is what got you the FoS. Twisting around what I said to make me sound scummy when you definitely know what I meant when I said it is what got you the FoS.

You keep talking about scum hunting but then don't vote or even FoS for the person you think is scummy. Now granted after you read this you probably will FoS or vote me because I called you on it but it's a bit late at that point.

You quite clearly didn't read my post.

I said several times that my opinion of you is neutral. Conversely, I believe the 3 people I voted/FoSed are scummy. I'm not quite sure what your point here is. I voted or FoSed those I found scummy. I said I found you neutral. Therefore I didn't FoS or vote for you.

You also said you were trying to find scum partnerships with me. That says I'm neutral? That's far from neutral.

Eek, gads. Bad wording on my part. Let me attempt to re-explain.

What I meant was that if either VH or Vampy came up as scum, I would be more ready to suspect you. I understand why you came to the above conclusion, but what I meant was later, when we find out the alignments of these people, we would have a better position into where you stand too.

That's one of the reasons I find you to be neutral. I find you really unreadable, which is why at this stage I don't find you scummy. This is why you aren't getting any FoSes or votes from me.

Does that make sense?

I'm not saying you suspect these people for lurking, I'm saying that if they have limited access, they also have limited time to scum hunt. Now as for the theory thing with Vampdog I again have to take his side. We think alike and enjoy a good debate about theory and playstyle etc. I could link quite a few times we've gotten into that kind of thing but I won't.

I understand they had limited access. For me, that is not a problem.

However, the problem is that their attempts to scum-hunt were often scummy, non-committal, and not scum-hunting, for example Vampy's post 406, and Hjallti's summaries and analysis in posts 210 and 326.

In addition, I can understand if this is a playstyle or site difference, but discussing theory at the expense of actual scum-hunting is a scum-tell - I myself have used it as scum, and I find that it can be a way of catching scum. The fact is, not scum-hunting = scummy.

I think you implied alot more than 'neutral' on me in your post and I think denying it is shady. But I think we're also just clashing on playstyle differences and I'm willing to shake hands and walk away.

I think this is definitely a playstyle clash.

Other than my "scum partnerships" wording issue, is there anything else that brought to your attention that my opinion of you wasn't neutral?

Hope this clears things up!

[Aimee]

1. Malchonn lurked and he lurked badly d1 and d2 before he stated he wanted to be replaced.

Oh, this is pretty obvious. Malchonn lurked.

However, if this is a large part of your case, then you should quite clearly be looking at others who lurked as well.

2. He never commented his own views into the game he always just built up what someone else would state.

Could you give some examples of this, please?

Right now Im pretty sure on Aimme being the scum possibly along with either SM or VH.

Why SM or VH?

[Muerrto]

You're really stretching here. When two people get into a fight like DO and Khel did it usually does mean they're both town. Everyone knows that.

Nope. Pure WIFOM speculation.

But does that mean we completely overlook the things they said and assume they ARE town? No way. How would we ever find scum? DO was voting for bad reasons, not defending himself, and constantly attacking Khel. Khel was 100% convinced he found a scum pair on page 2 and never let that go. He was wanting a speedlynch most of day 1 and wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone else being scum. Even if we're all pretty sure they're town because they're fighting so much, how do you simply ignore all the scum tells and not vote them?

Okay, are you suggesting that you considered them to be town because they were fighting?

Definitely. Almost always when two people get into that bad it's because they're both town. Now granted if they were both long time players I could see building a case that they were distancing etc. But judging from how long they've been playing I'm pretty confident they weren't distancing.

My point was however that just because they might be town is no excuse to simply excuse them from their scum tells. You're right it's pure WIFOM to say they're town because they're fighting. It's usually right but it's WIFOM. So that's why you can't just assume they're town and overlook them.

In fact, you just basically undermined your own original argument. You said I voted for them even though I thought they were town. But then you just said that just because they're fighting doesn't make them town. Ergo, I voted them.

You also said you were trying to find scum partnerships with me. That says I'm neutral? That's far from neutral.

Eek, gads. Bad wording on my part. Let me attempt to re-explain.

What I meant was that if either VH or Vampy came up as scum, I would be more ready to suspect you. I understand why you came to the above conclusion, but what I meant was later, when we find out the alignments of these people, we would have a better position into where you stand too.

That's one of the reasons I find you to be neutral. I find you really unreadable, which is why at this stage I don't find you scummy. This is why you aren't getting any FoSes or votes from me.

Does that make sense?

Somewhat. But besides my difference in opinion on VH's playing and my defense of Vampdog because I know him outside this site, where's your link from me to them? Saying I'm neutral but if someone else turns up scum I'm no longer neutral makes no sense.

[Aimee]

You're really stretching here. When two people get into a fight like DO and Khel did it usually does mean they're both town. Everyone knows that.

Nope. Pure WIFOM speculation.

But does that mean we completely overlook the things they said and assume they ARE town? No way. How would we ever find scum? DO was voting for bad reasons, not defending himself, and constantly attacking Khel. Khel was 100% convinced he found a scum pair on page 2 and never let that go. He was wanting a speedlynch most of day 1 and wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone else being scum. Even if we're all pretty sure they're town because they're fighting so much, how do you simply ignore all the scum tells and not vote them?

Okay, are you suggesting that you considered them to be town because they were fighting?

Definitely. Almost always when two people get into that bad it's because they're both town. Now granted if they were both long time players I could see building a case that they were distancing etc. But judging from how long they've been playing I'm pretty confident they weren't distancing.

My point was however that just because they might be town is no excuse to simply excuse them from their scum tells. You're right it's pure WIFOM to say they're town because they're fighting. It's usually right but it's WIFOM. So that's why you can't just assume they're town and overlook them.

In fact, you just basically undermined your own original argument. You said I voted for them even though I thought they were town. But then you just said that just because they're fighting doesn't make them town. Ergo, I voted them.

Gah, ok.

This is finally making sense.

If the only reason you said they are probably town is because they were fighting (which we have both agreed is inherently flawed), then this isn't scummy.

In that case, you were actually looking at their scum-tells, and doing the right thing (in a really twisted way).

I think that could have been explained clearer. I remember Plessiez taking an issue with it as well, so it's not just me being dim.

You also said you were trying to find scum partnerships with me. That says I'm neutral? That's far from neutral.

Eek, gads. Bad wording on my part. Let me attempt to re-explain.

What I meant was that if either VH or Vampy came up as scum, I would be more ready to suspect you. I understand why you came to the above conclusion, but what I meant was later, when we find out the alignments of these people, we would have a better position into where you stand too.

That's one of the reasons I find you to be neutral. I find you really unreadable, which is why at this stage I don't find you scummy. This is why you aren't getting any FoSes or votes from me.

Does that make sense?

Somewhat. But besides my difference in opinion on VH's playing and my defense of Vampdog because I know him outside this site, where's your link from me to them? Saying I'm neutral but if someone else turns up scum I'm no longer neutral makes no sense.

Why doesn't it?

Let's go theory. Say we have A and B. B is being attacked from all sides, and suddenly A starts coming along and defending them. Eventually, though, B is lynched. Suspicion is then on A for such a strong defense of B.

Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

Back to the game, you have quite clearly been defending both of them really obviously, and there is really obvious links that point you towards them. Therefore, if one of them came up as scum, I would be more susceptible to suspecting you.

[Muerrto]

This is finally making sense.

If the only reason you said they are probably town is because they were fighting (which we have both agreed is inherently flawed), then this isn't scummy.

In that case, you were actually looking at their scum-tells, and doing the right thing (in a really twisted way).

I think that could have been explained clearer. I remember Plessiez taking an issue with it as well, so it's not just me being dim.

Yes, and I thought I explained to Pless but I suppose it was lost in the myriad of pages. But basically, yes. I assume they're both town because they're fighting so much(flawed yes but mostly right). But you can't just assume they're town if they're making bad scum tells. It's like I had to explain in another game that claiming townie means nothing. If I suspected you because of your actions then claiming plain town should never change my suspiscion. Therefore, just because they're fighting like townies doesn't mean I can excuse their scum tells. So while I was pretty sure their fighting labelled them as town, their tells did not and therefore I had to vote them.

Let's go theory. Say we have A and B. B is being attacked from all sides, and suddenly A starts coming along and defending them. Eventually, though, B is lynched. Suspicion is then on A for such a strong defense of B.

Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

Back to the game, you have quite clearly been defending both of them really obviously, and there is really obvious links that point you towards them. Therefore, if one of them came up as scum, I would be more susceptible to suspecting you.

Somewhat again. But the difference is I haven't been defending their role or their actions taken in the game per se. I've been defending them personally. Big difference. I have insider knowledge of Vamp that tells me that he likes to discuss theory and has limited access. I also have personal knowledge of VH that he's 13 because he said it. My take on that personal knowledge may be different from yours but that's simply a difference of opinion and can be argued till we're dead. VH's tells coincide with both newbie and scum. Knowing he's young boosts my suspiscions his tells are newbie. Now granted I've stated many times I hold newbies under that protection a bit much but that's just how I think.

However it seems this is all moot. Enough people suspect VH that he'll most likely die today and I hope you're right. And sadly if you are I'll have to re-defend myself tomorrow.

[VampanezeHunter]

Oh by the way I haven't voted myself!

[SeraphicMirth]

D_O - my main suspects are the same as they have been. VH and Muerrto, though I'm not even 100% sure of either one of them (obviously).

I think you need to look deeper in your suspicion of Aimee. I'm not saying that I totally think she's town or anything, but your reasoning seems to be based just off the fact that Malchonn lurked. Aimee has been posting things with substantial content and her wording and reactions in post #635 make me lean towards her being town, though I'm keeping an eye out..anyone who posts a lot of content has my eye cuz I'm afraid they use lots of logic to make loops. So, I try to read their posts more carefully.
Anyway..I'm just wondering if you've actually read her posts or you were just dead set on Malchonn, therefore his replacement, being scum no matter what?


Oh, and my other suspicions are anyone who is lurking..easy to say but I said earlier..I think scum can get away with a lot if they have one or two of them talking a bunch and the rest kind of non committal with the game.

[SeraphicMirth]

with my limited access I don't have time to read these long posts between Muerrto and Aimee but I do have a question

do you both think the other is scum and your discussion between the two of you is still worthwhile/productive or do you think we need to be looking elsewhere right now? We're on deadline, still a little bit away but..I feel like we're not really closer to figuring out a correct hang for today (this comment is dependant upon the fact that I haven't read any of the long posts yet..)

My internet is supposedly hooked back up at my new house and steady..so we'll see if I get time later this evening or tomorrow evening to really look through stuff.

[Muerrto]

do you both think the other is scum and your discussion between the two of you is still worthwhile/productive or do you think we need to be looking elsewhere right now?

Actually no. Despite Aimee saying discussing theory is bad we've been doing just that lol. Kind of pointless to read actually. We'll stop now. Sorry.

[SeraphicMirth]

I wasn't berating you guys lol I just had a feeling it was more of a "let's clarify for each other" type of convo

[death_omen]

well if we targeted lurkers only the top two subjects would be:

Hijati which is seeming to be more and more scum

&

Vamps he barely ever comments on anything that is ACTUALLY useful for the game.

[Aimee]

do you both think the other is scum and your discussion between the two of you is still worthwhile/productive or do you think we need to be looking elsewhere right now?

Actually no. Despite Aimee saying discussing theory is bad we've been doing just that lol. Kind of pointless to read actually. We'll stop now. Sorry.

Heh. I actually don't really think we're getting anywhere at the moment, with the deadline so close (might continue this tomorrow), but actually I think that it's a clash of playstyles really. As I've said, I consider Muerrto neutral.

On other news, I'm still most suspicious of VampanezeHunter, Hjallti and Vampyrusddg, and would be happy to get rid of all of them, but VH would be my choice.

[Aimee]

Also,

mod

, I'm not on the vote count, although I'm voting for VampanezeHunter.

The vote count at the top of this page has been corrected - Mod

[Hjallti]

I agree with Aimee that it is a hell of a game to reread and I have to try to use my memory more in this game than in any other due to the lenght of the comment.

meanwhile I came up scum in another game where I played very actively so the small posts are no scumtells, but you can think of it whatever you want.

At this point I think VampanezeHunter played the most bizarre game. Nelly's playstyle is pretty frustated but I no longer think that is scummy.

I would like to get the real votecount (I guess VH is not selfvoting, but Aimee is the 3rd vote there?) and to do a new reread of the game, before voting.

[VampanezeHunter]

Well I guess you guys are gonna lynch me. All of your reasons have been is because of my conrtadictions. My defense is that I was(and still am) nervous as this is my first Mini Normal game and I want to get a good start. But I guess my defense means nothing. Just an assumption. Probably incorrect. Anyone have any questions?

[VampanezeHunter]

EBWOP: I haven't read the long posts as I haven't had time with school activities.

[SeraphicMirth]

aacckkk...I want to believe it's just noob..as far as I can tell, this really is your first mini. buuuuttt I'm afraid you're just using it and we really caught you as noob scum.
blllaghh.

I dunno..I'm still gonna keep my vote. I dunno..it just seems like a lot of stuff..more than just nervousness. I dunno.

If you're town and you get hung, don't quit MafiaScum..I would feel bad.

[Aimee]

I don't know either. He could easily be a newbie or scum.

Conversely, I'm more inclined to feel the actions of Hjallti and Vampy

are

scummy.