433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[gorckat]

FWIW, his defense was 'apathy'.

[Dasquian]

Really? You

really

think he's put in the effort required of a replacement? He's given no indication that he's even read the thread, let alone thoroughly to come up with some valid opinions. He's proffered the briefest responses only to things which have happened in the time he's been reading, and even he's admitted that he's not been pulling his weight. That post you referenced had him admitting to being, and I quote, "too apathetic to get to a point where he might understand" [the current situation of the game].

Basically he's dicked us around for the best part of a month while we've waited to hear what he was going to add, with a "roll over and die then pretend not to hear" attitude. Even if it's not a stalling tactic that's working remarkably well, by ignoring him we're giving scum the all-clear to try it themselves. There are lots of reasons this game is slow. Let's not make this town being abnormally reluctant to push a good bandwagon one of them.

[gorckat]

From my gut, there are two likely scum groups:

Das, PJ and pete or flea, OTM and pie. Yes, the second has a dash of OMGUS. Whatever. They're not in order of likelihood, and both have a flex spot in them I could swap with another person.

I think Das and PJ have been good townies. PJ especially put in a load of work reading up for us. That makes me lean towards my second grouping and maintain lynching flea is a good idea.

This my gut and I couldn't put anything concrete in a post to explain it better than that.

Discuss.

[Off the Mark]

Alright, so it wasn't a great defense. But it seemed like you were trying to make it look like he had given up, Dasq, which I felt was an exaggeration. His behavior still seems more like cornered townie than caught-red-handed-scum, to me. I agree he should be trying to defend himself more, but that doesn't make him scum.

[Dasquian]

Re: gorckat. Unsurprisingly, I agree with your second grouping more than the first. However, I don't think the first is unreasonable (though, of course, wrong!) based on the lines that have been drawn in this game and which side people have come down on them.

Paranoid disclaimer: you might be scum deliberately presenting two alternatives each containing some scum-buddies for various nefarious outcomes.

Re: OTM. He

has

given up. Let's look back to post 729:

Reread blah blah post later etc... You know the drill.

That was Aug 10, one day shy of a month ago, and I'm still waiting for any kind of "I'm here, I know what I'm doing now, and here's what I think of everything" post. You're right, it doesn't make him scum, but it doesn't make him town either and superstring was already well on his way to the noose when flea replaced him. The only reason the pressure let up was to give him breathing room to join the game, which he's willfully chosen not to use.

[gorckat]

Paranoid disclaimer: you might be scum deliberately presenting two alternatives each containing some scum-buddies for various nefarious outcomes.

MWUHAHAHno.

Re: OTM. He

has

given up. Let's look back to post 729:

Reread blah blah post later etc... You know the drill.

That was Aug 10, one day shy of a month ago, and I'm still waiting for any kind of "I'm here, I know what I'm doing now, and here's what I think of everything" post. You're right, it doesn't make him scum, but it doesn't make him town either and superstring was already well on his way to the noose when flea replaced him. The only reason the pressure let up was to give him breathing room to join the game, which he's willfully chosen not to use.

I did a little reading of flea in a few other games about a week ago. He does seem consistent with the 'I'm in the game now, so that's when I start playing' attitutde (both when he replaces and when other's replace in). He did post a total summary of opinions as a scum replacement in Mini 425 (or is this 425? If so, 433). I don't recall if he has replaced as town in another deep game needing such a synopsis.

However, his refusal to post such a summary here (even so much as saying whether he bought Dodgy's claim, CES' non-claim, MBL's refusal to claim, or anything else) is very frustrating and ignores that WE aren't just starting.

[petroleumjelly]

Das, PJ and pete or flea, OTM and pie. Yes, the second has a dash of OMGUS. Whatever. They're not in order of likelihood, and both have a flex spot in them I could swap with another person.

I'll have to reread the latest happening to see if these two grouping indeed fall on "lines that have been drawn" (as Dasquain suggests), but this appears to me to be rather ingenuous. For me, is

bordering

on a false dilemma (even though it is clearly not so simple). It appears to group the town into two particular things, and then undermining one, and therefore concluding the second to be true.

To me, it is reading along the lines of the following:

The three shiniest objects in my possession are either:

->

a.

A coin, a knife, and a mirror; or
->

b.

A key, a paper-clip, and a button

However, I don't think my key or my button is very shiny, so I think

a.

is probably my three shiniest objects.

The problem, of course, being that there is no reason why the paper-clip should not be included in

a

or part of another option entirely - the groups look almost arbitrarily made for the purpose of keeping the unmentioned object in group

b

(in this case, pete d) out of the other grouping. Also, for a grouping like this ("most likely to be scum"), it makes

much

more sense for there to actually me some

overlapping

between two options, instead of sticking people in groups

first

without first assessing who you think is

most likely to be scum

. To compare to the "shiny" analogy, you would think somebody talking about their three most shiny objects would have a list like the following:

I am quite sure that my Mirror is - at the very least - in my top three shiniest objects. I do not think my key or my button is very shiny, though. So I think my top three shiniest objects are:

->

a.

A mirror, a coin, and a knife; or
->

b.

A mirror, a coin, and a paperclip; or
->

c.

A mirror, a knife, and a paperclip

^ This to me is much more likely town thought process than the first example. I still think either gorkcat or SSF are the way to go today.

[petroleumjelly]

From my gut, there are two likely scum groups:

Das, PJ and pete or flea, OTM and pie. Yes, the second has a dash of OMGUS. Whatever. They're not in order of likelihood, and

both have a flex spot in them I could swap with another person.

I think Das and PJ have been good townies. PJ especially put in a load of work reading up for us.

That makes me lean towards my second grouping and maintain lynching flea is a good idea.

To respond to the comment I expect somebody to make (because I have time to respond to it now, but I can't say the same for the near future):

Yes

, I did notice the comment I high-lighted in blue.

But

given his next (purple) high-lighted statement, it seems to contradict his willingness to swap people in and out (but instead stick to one grouping). In particular, I would like see who he swaps out for who, what groupings that leaves him, and which of those groupings he then finds to be most likely. This is mostly being done to see who (if anybody) overlaps in gorkcat's lists.

[gorckat]

I'd seen someone use the term 'False Dilemma' in another game, but they didn't explain it and I hadn't had a chance to wiki it. Thank you for the breakdown.

Basically, those are just my gut feelings- If A, then B and maybe C, or 1, then 2 and probably 3. Its like a fork in the road. Either direction is equally likely to get me where I want to go, but the road to the left triggers a more emotional response and looks more enjoyable.

Some of the players just don't strike me as being scum together.

[gorckat]

Damn- shoulda previewed (missed PJ's second post).

Maybe I should've also listed my SK 'group': pete, flea and pie. If pete's the SK, I'd slide pie into his place with Das and PJ, but that doesn't feel as 'organic' as Das, pj, pete. If flea or pie were the SK, pj would take his place in that group.

Based on how felt people have been interacting, I lean towards the pie, OTM, flea grouping.

[petroleumjelly]

{Non-Game related}

To be fair, a true false dilemma is often going to be in the form of:

I either agree with me, or you are a complete idiot. You do not agree with me, so I must conclude you are an idiot.

This of course leaves out options such as "You do not agree with me but you are not an idiot", "I am an idiot and to agree with me is to be an idiot", "You have not given an opinion, so I although you may 'not agree with me' right now there is a chance you will", and so on. There isn't a good reason to exclude these unless you explain them.

{Game related}

Essentially, I wanted reasoning for why you put particular people in particular groups, because to me the groupings looked arbitrarily made for the purpose of discrediting one to affirm the other, without explaining why the other options are not feasible to you. I'll accept your explanation for now, but there's a good chance I will poke at you to explain it more for me so I can understand your thinking.

[petroleumjelly]

EBWOP:

I

You

either agree with me, or you are a complete idiot. You do not agree with me, so I must conclude you are an idiot.

[petroleumjelly]

*waves to SSF*

Hai. ^_^

I see you browsing Little Italy. If you could, would you mind saying something - preferably in the form of an opinion of who/what you think is scummy and why, with perhaps some comments to show you have read through all of Day One?

[gorckat]

As for reasoning- mostly based on who's posting, who's defended who, who's supported who. I haven't gone back and re-read to get the groupings. They've been rolling around in my head for awhile, and include some Notes from two or more months ago I forgot I made.

I concede the method is a little illogical (since the notes were impressions/thoughts based on little hard evidence).

[somestrangeflea]

You really think he's put in the effort required of a replacement? He's given no indication that he's even read the thread,

Why are scum any more likely to not read the thread than town? Not reading the thread thoroughly would jeopardise both alignments fairly equally, TBH.

let alone thoroughly to come up with some valid opinions.

As I said, anyone who interested me Day 1 is dead.

That post you referenced had him admitting to being, and I quote, "too apathetic to get to a point where he might understand" [the current situation of the game].

Hooray for misrepresentation!
Uh,

you

said that. I said that I was apathetic, yes, but I understand the situation perfectly.

Das, PJ and pete or flea, OTM and pie

I don't think it's particularly useful to have all your main suspects mutually exclusive from 2 others.

Re: OTM. He

has

given up.

Misrepresentation FTW!
Normally, giving up is a public affair, normally accompanied by the phrase "I give up", or words to that effect. I don't think you're in a position to tell me what my own mindset is, thank you.

I did a little reading of flea in a few other games about a week ago. He does seem consistent with the 'I'm in the game now, so that's when I start playing' attitutde (both when he replaces and when other's replace in).

And, should I die, my death will help the case that metagaming rarely works...

I don't recall if he has replaced as town in another deep game needing such a synopsis.

Correct, I have not replaced into any

other

"deep" games as Town. Then again, I've only replaced into one other "deep" game.

*waves to SSF*

Hai. ^_^

Oh...

Hello.

I see you browsing Little Italy.

+1 point for observancy...

If you could, would you mind saying something - preferably in the form of an opinion of who/what you think is scummy and why,

I'm currently thinking Dasquian more scummy for misrepresenting me, TBH.

with perhaps some comments to show you have read through all of Day One?

Sure...

MBL's refusal to claim, was, IMO, quite fair. CES retracted Dodgy's claim, which is fair enough, considering that Dodgy's claim was made during an "explosion", which, IMO, would render the claim itself highly doubtful. I think the retraction was, in part to ensure that there was an air of doubt that the scum would have to work with. MBL's refusal to claim was fair, because, if he thought in a similar method to CES, then he would have no reason to re-claim (and by that, I mean high threat of lynch), which gave him no reason to claim.

[gorckat]

I did a little reading of flea in a few other games about a week ago. He does seem consistent with the 'I'm in the game now, so that's when I start playing' attitutde (both when he replaces and when other's replace in).

And, should I die, my death will help the case that metagaming rarely works...

I was saying you were playing in a consistent manner to other games as and with replacements. I wasn't metagaming you for a tell; I was sharing an observation that anyone can make. I think it helps to understand your attitude towards this game.

Do you have any other thoughts on Day 1, or at least Day 2?

[somestrangeflea]

I did a little reading of flea in a few other games about a week ago. He does seem consistent with the 'I'm in the game now, so that's when I start playing' attitutde (both when he replaces and when other's replace in).

And, should I die, my death will help the case that metagaming rarely works...

I was saying you were playing in a consistent manner to other games as and with replacements. I wasn't metagaming you for a tell; I was sharing an observation that anyone can make. I think it helps to understand your attitude towards this game.

Apologies, I misread your post. I thought you were trying to say that I was acting

in

consistently in this game.

Do you have any other thoughts on Day 1, or at least Day 2?

As is fairly obvious, I have acquired a fair amount of suspicion for Dasquian.

Vote: Dasq

Partial OMGUS, partial retaliation for CrapMisinterpretationFun™...

[Thestatusquo]

Gorckat (pie OtM)
SSF (peted dasq GORCK)
No lynch (kilm)
Dasq (SSF)

[Dasquian]

To address accusations of misrepresentation:

Hooray for misrepresentation!
Uh, you said that. I said that I was apathetic, yes, but I understand the situation perfectly.

Yes, I did say that. You responded with:

Apathetic FTW.
TBH, I've been playing this game rather

a

pathetically...

Hence I drew the conclusion that you admitted to apathy, and did not draw the conclusion that you "understood the situation perfectly". In fact, I drew quite the reverse conclusion as you responded in the affirmative to me when I said you were, and I quote again, "too apathetic to get to a point where he might understand".

I don't think I am misrepresenting you here. I think my position is entirely defensible.

Misrepresentation FTW!
Normally, giving up is a public affair, normally accompanied by the phrase "I give up", or words to that effect. I don't think you're in a position to tell me what my own mindset is, thank you.

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument about what "giving up" means and whether it's a technical term or not. My point was that you had, until now, pretty much opted out on playing this game with any significant level of involvement, to the intense frustration of myself and I am fairly sure a number of others. Again, I'm pretty happy with this accusation, but I'm happier that you're finally pulling your finger out now. It shouldn't have taken this long.

And gee golly whiz, I'm sorry all the

interesting

players died Day 1, but that's a dreadful excuse for not posting - it sounds like a grade A cop-out to me - to get you off the hook for commenting on who

didn't

die. Finally...

Why are scum any more likely to not read the thread than town? Not reading the thread thoroughly would jeopardise both alignments fairly equally, TBH.

Well, any player should do their homework on replacing into a game, even if it's just a cursory glance. However, townies have more to gain from a reread as they are the ones who need to root out scum. Scum already know who they are. So that's one reason.

Another reason is that scum don't have to be telling the truth about not having read the thread, as a obstruction tactic akin to lurking to avoid them contributing to the game in a way that gets them in trouble - or, in other words, it makes sense as scum to claim you haven't read the thread if you can get away with it. We only have your word for it that you haven't cynically chosen to play the way you have. So I would expect some proportion of replacers claiming not to have read the thread to be scum trying it on, alongside some townies and scum alike who genuinely haven't read the thread.

[somestrangeflea]

Hence I drew the conclusion that you admitted to apathy, and did not draw the conclusion that you "understood the situation perfectly". In fact, I drew quite the reverse conclusion as you responded in the affirmative to me when I said you were, and I quote again, "too apathetic to get to a point where he might understand".

Really? I mean, it's a relatively simple situation, to be honest...

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument about what "giving up" means and whether it's a technical term or not. My point was that you had, until now, pretty much opted out on playing this game with any significant level of involvement, to the intense frustration of myself and I am fairly sure a number of others.

My point was that you can't tell someone else that they've given up.

And gee golly whiz, I'm sorry all the interesting players died Day 1,

Don't be. Not being particularly interesting is good play for both Town and Scum.

but that's a dreadful excuse for not posting

I wasn't using that as an excuse for not posting, I'm using it as an excuse for not commenting on Day 1. ..

- it sounds like a grade A cop-out to me - to get you off the hook for commenting on who didn't die.

Yeah, because I'm off the hook...

Well, any player should do their homework on replacing into a game, even if it's just a cursory glance. However, townies have more to gain from a reread as they are the ones who need to root out scum. Scum already know who they are. So that's one reason.

Another reason is that scum don't have to be telling the truth about not having read the thread, as a obstruction tactic akin to lurking to avoid them contributing to the game in a way that gets them in trouble - or, in other words, it makes sense as scum to claim you haven't read the thread if you can get away with it. We only have your word for it that you haven't cynically chosen to play the way you have. So I would expect some proportion of replacers claiming not to have read the thread to be scum trying it on, alongside some townies and scum alike who genuinely haven't read the thread.

Oh...

STFU!

[Off the Mark]

SSF, your vote on Dasq and your nonchalant attitude towards his accusations aren't really helping you. I'm still leaning town on you, but I think you're doing a lousy job playing as a townie who's replaced into a tough spot.

Gorckat or Pete are clearly better plays than Dasq IMO, for today's lynch. If one of them comes up clean, then maybe we can trust Dasq a little more, as he does seem like a pretty bright guy who could help us if he is indeed pro-town. If we kill Dasq and he's town, it's a worse loss IMO than if Gorck or Pete were to get mislynched. My best guess at this point would be that they're all scum, but let's lynch Gorckat first and see where that leads us.

I just know someone's going to say this post is scummy, for whatever reason, but I've been beating the Gorck-Pete-Dasq drum for a while now and nothing has happened to change my mind.

[gorckat]

It is scummy.

Your best guess is that the three of us are scum, but you want me to go first and you refused Das on a pete lynch. Does that hit too close to the idea that you argued against earlier- that at one point you were bussing your partner?

Also- your position that losing Das hurts more than losing me is illogical. If you think the three of us are scum, letting the bright one live ain't much gud sens, y'know?

[Dasquian]

OK, let's look at this a more pragmatic way. I think we should be lynching ssf today. So far, myself, gorckat and pete d are voting for him, meaning we need two more votes. Assuming he won't vote for himself, and taking OTM's last post as a "don't want to vote him", that leaves kilm, PJ and pie as potential bandwagon-finishers.

What are you three's opinions on voting ssf?

On a similar vein, gorck has two votes (pie and OTM) and hence needs three more from the same crowd + ssf and - gorckat himself. Speaking for myself, I am not keen on lynching him today. That leaves kilm, PJ, ssf and pete d as potential bandwagon-finishers.

What are your four's opinions on voting gorckat?

It's worrying to note that in both cases, without kilmenator being here and voting, we need a near unanimous agreement which basically depends on scum bussing each other Though, that said, that gives us something to read into (which in turn, should encourage the scum to bus each other ).

[Off the Mark]

It is scummy.

Your best guess is that the three of us are scum, but you want me to go first and

you refused Das on a pete lynch

.

Whoah, that is not AT ALL what happened. *WHOOP WHOOP* scum alert, people! Das mentioned that he maybe thought Pete could be scum. I offered

to Dasq

that I would support a Pete D lynch and then

Dasq refused

. You twisted the whole thing around to try to make it look like I was the one acting scummy instead of Dasq! I can't believe we haven't lynched you already.

Also- your position that losing Das hurts more than losing me is illogical. If you think the three of us are scum, letting the bright one live ain't much gud sens, y'know?

It's perfectly logical. Keeping a smart pro-town player around can help the town a lot. If you turn up scum, then we know Dasq has a high likelihood of also being scum, and then who cares if he's smart? Smart scum can't hurt the town at all if we know he's scum.

[Dasquian]

Yes, I was also confused by that - OTM is right. Although it didn't seem so much like an "offer" me as OTM pushing his agenda, but hey.

If you turn up scum, then we know Dasq has a high likelihood of also being scum, and then who cares if he's smart? Smart scum can't hurt the town at all if we know he's scum.

Um, not liking this so much. I accept that if gorckat should show up to be scum the town would be justified in taking a closer look at me; I've defended him and repeatedly said I find him to be townie. I do not like you lining me up as a non-participant in my own lynch should that eventually occur, however.