Mini 1732 - Super Smash Bros. Project M(afia) - D7!

[MarioManiac4]

I want to vote lickety because i feel like he makes more sense than this

[GuiltyLion]

399 reads to me like = "A) he's not scumhunting, therefore B) he's scum". I agree on A but I don't think B follows from A. It's not convincing to me, especially this early in the game, sorry.

I'm not gonna be his lawyer so I'm dropping it after this, he can defend himself from here on out. But seriously, look at his completed games. The dude gets ML'd on D1 all the time. I wouldn't be so sure that you've 'caught scum' when many before you have thought the exact same only to find instead that they 'caught' a highly mislynchable player.

[Xtoxm]

And I agree his response to your triforce request is easy, but I don't think it's serious. If he were scum and he started getting in trouble for it, I think he could easily spin it like he was just joking around.

1) I feel his claim was legit
2) This only applies if he actually does backtrack on it which he has not done
3) Planning to backtrack seems strictly inferior to simply keeping it hidden

If there's scum between them, it's probably the one who has chosen to keep it hidden, assuming it exists.

[Metal Sonic]

399 reads to me like = "A) he's not scumhunting, therefore B) he's scum". I agree on A but I don't think B follows from A. It's not convincing to me, especially this early in the game, sorry.

I'm not gonna be his lawyer so I'm dropping it after this, he can defend himself from here on out. But seriously, look at his completed games. The dude gets ML'd on D1 all the time. I wouldn't be so sure that you've 'caught scum' when many before you have thought the exact same only to find instead that they 'caught' a highly mislynchable player.

okay... why dont you check for his towntells and scumtells too?

is his skill level as scum significantly better that lynching D1 would be a mistake?

[Metal Sonic]

if he's lynchable at D1 as town but also as scum then your point is very moot

[GuiltyLion]

if he's lynchable at D1 as town but also as scum then your point is very moot

Just so we're clear, what exactly do you think my point is in drawing this discussion out?

[Metal Sonic]

oh sure drawing discussion out is good

just wanted to make things crystal clear -- that there is no reason NOT to lynch lickety, cuz he is super scummy



let's talk about your davsto vote+read then.

[Metal Sonic]

Okay, my thing with Lickety is do you really feel like scum is gonna be saying trolly stuff like 81, 106, 190, 239, etc? I get that 'so reckless that scum wouldn't do it' isn't a compelling argument for towniness, but I don't think there's much there that's significantly scum-indicative either. I thought 219 by Tails was a particularly weak case because point 1 seems to imply he's scum for limiting his scumreads and then point 3 implies he is scum for casting suspicion on a wide number of people.

Plus it's not like the things LQ is actually doing have anti-town motivation to them, and there's several posts in his ISO where he makes insightful pushes or asks useful directed questions.

Regardless, he's chosen to introduce the WIFOM of "is this guy actually town or not?" at a few points in his play, which is why I wouldn't shed a tear if he got vigged. Eventually town will have to deal with him, but I don't think he's gonna make a useful D1 lynch and I think pushing him is basically the easiest thing one can do at the moment.

I like these recent posts from Metal Sonic.

VOTE: Davsto

reasoning for why lickety is notscum, but no reasoning for davsto vote.

want to patch that up?

[GuiltyLion]

Reasoning for my davsto vote is simply that he's voting for a townread and that another townread is voting him.

[Davsto]

I agree with All Alone's point against Davsto, but I've seen him get mislynched for similar reasons before in other games. Taking a bit of a 'wait and see' on him, but he's in my suspect pool.

What games?

I have a completed game with ASP where he lurked and was mislynched for it on D1, Micro 533.

Just to clarify, I've played with lurking ASP too. Didn't get lynched for ages but generally dragged down the town. If I remember correctly, he was VLA for a while and then left VLA and his amount of posting stayed about the same.

I agree with All Alone's point against Davsto, but I've seen him get mislynched for similar reasons before in other games. Taking a bit of a 'wait and see' on him, but he's in my suspect pool.

What games?

I have a completed game with ASP where he lurked and was mislynched for it on D1, Micro 533.

Just to clarify, I've played with lurking ASP too. Didn't get lynched for ages but generally dragged down the town.

VOTE: Davsto

I think this ISO is pretty bad. Apart from calling smiffle's first vote awful, he hasn't done anything to scumhunt at all despite having a decent number of posts.

He seems more preoccupied with setup/role speculation then actually catching scum.

I can be bad at scumhunting a large amount early on so I setup spec so I can actually provide help.

(psst, ms, you're right, and I'm a dumb-ass)

But seriously, what is up with Nana? Will she only respond if we vote her?
The vote count blatantly states she has a vote, so it has to be triggered by something...

Okay, this is a bizarre thing to change a read on (although I was fairly unsure on smiffle at first), but I feel that if he were scum and thought it was this, he probably wouldn't mention it, to try and let townies get hammered. Potentially even get a quickhammer in and walk off without even being at fault. I'm thinking maybe he's just slightly off town more than scum? I don't know, I'll see.

What makes you say that?

He tried to fish for triforces earlier, and as noted

only 3 flavored

have triforces (even I know this), one is super bad villain

When I probed him, he couldn't answer, meaning he is bad

Guilty lion noted he was a ganon and even I know he is main evil

Actually, potentially up to 5 Triforce flavours, looking at Project M. Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf.

Okay, my thing with Lickety is do you really feel like scum is gonna be saying trolly stuff like 81, 106, 190, 239, etc? I get that 'so reckless that scum wouldn't do it' isn't a compelling argument for towniness, but I don't think there's much there that's significantly scum-indicative either. I thought 219 by Tails was a particularly weak case because point 1 seems to imply he's scum for limiting his scumreads and then point 3 implies he is scum for casting suspicion on a wide number of people.

Plus it's not like the things LQ is actually doing have anti-town motivation to them, and there's several posts in his ISO where he makes insightful pushes or asks useful directed questions.

Regardless, he's chosen to introduce the WIFOM of "is this guy actually town or not?" at a few points in his play, which is why I wouldn't shed a tear if he got vigged. Eventually town will have to deal with him, but I don't think he's gonna make a useful D1 lynch and I think pushing him is basically the easiest thing one can do at the moment.

I like these recent posts from Metal Sonic.

VOTE: Davsto

*series of text completely unrelated to me*
*vote on me*
???

Reasoning for my davsto vote is simply that he's voting for a townread and that another townread is voting him.

[/quote]Oh lovely, the best kind of read. Like seriously, this is just yeh.
UNVOTE: smiffle, I'm feeling less sure on him. Not sure about another candidate though.
VOTE: Guilty because his defense on LQ looks white knight-y, his vote on me is chainsaw-y and weak.

[MarioManiac4]

ASP lurking?
Fucking tell me about it
(jk asp)

Anyway I've converted and it's entirely GL the obvious scumbuddy's fault.
"I'm going to stop defending X now but I don't want to lynch him."

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

[GuiltyLion]

*series of text completely unrelated to me*
*vote on me*
???

[snip]

Oh lovely, the best kind of read. Like seriously, this is just yeh.

I'm becoming rather fond of naked votes, they make people react in informative ways. Do you think people will seriously lynch you just because of my vote?

because his defense on LQ looks white knight-y, his vote on me is chainsaw-y and weak.

You're better than this, this isn't giving me a reason to suddenly think you're town. You said earlier you don't really have a strong candidate... did you consider that I am in the same boat?

I see that you requested to know which games that I remember seeing you mislynched, I'm at work so I can't exactly meta dive but I promise I'll pull up the games I was thinking of later tonight or tomorrow. I remember a newbie game with pirate mollie and vedith? and a micro, possibly that one where everyone gets multiple votes.

Anyway I've converted and it's entirely GL the obvious scumbuddy's fault.
"I'm going to stop defending X now but I don't want to lynch him."

you think I'm an obvious scumbuddy, so you vote LQ instead? That's a horrendous reason to vote someone pre-flips. What about LQ do you explicitly find scummy?

You all need to chill on how much you think I'm "defending" LQ. I've never indicated that I'm townreading him and I said he should be vigged or handled later. But here's what I'm seeing, a guy who's playing confusing and not scumhunting in the way that Tails expects, and now suddenly everyone is expected to immediately turbolynch him? There's a lot of benefit in making people justify their votes and taking the time to evaluate why each person is on his wagon. That's not WKing, that's doing my homework, as any good townie should do.

For example, Mario's reasoning is terrible. As if I would play this way if the scumteam included myself and LQ. Give me a break.

[Davsto]

*series of text completely unrelated to me*
*vote on me*
???

[snip]

Oh lovely, the best kind of read. Like seriously, this is just yeh.

I'm becoming rather fond of naked votes, they make people react in informative ways. Do you think people will seriously lynch you just because of my vote?

One game I got quicklynched in about fifteen minutes from one super-scummy vote. I get worried.

because his defense on LQ looks white knight-y, his vote on me is chainsaw-y and weak.

You're better than this, this isn't giving me a reason to suddenly think you're town. You said earlier you don't really have a strong candidate... did you consider that I am in the same boat?

I see that you requested to know which games that I remember seeing you mislynched, I'm at work so I can't exactly meta dive but I promise I'll pull up the games I was thinking of later tonight or tomorrow. I remember a newbie game with pirate mollie and vedith? and a micro, possibly that one where everyone gets multiple votes.

Former is ongoing so shh, and the latter I was scum. I'm kinda tetchy when people get a meta read on me that isn't right.

[GuiltyLion]

the latter I was scum

ah you are right, maybe it was another micro? I'll check when I get home. I actually think you calling me out on my lazy point about meta is a good push, it was a pretty weak reason for me to hedge on a scumlean.

[MarioManiac4]

So let me make this clear;
You think lickety is town.
So you were like "I don't wanna be his lawyer but you should stop."
You're holding back on defending your buddy.

[GuiltyLion]

So let me make this clear;
You think lickety is town.
So you were like "I don't wanna be his lawyer but you should stop."
You're holding back on defending your buddy.

Can you show me where I said that I think Lickety is town? Quote the post, please. And while you're at it, read my ISO and make a serious effort to figure out why I'm doing what I'm doing.

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, a few thoughts on the last few pages that I kinda skimmed.

Tails has huge congimation bias against me for not likeing my opening I think. I would normally give then a town read for this but the fact that they want to lynch me asap is really bad to do as town.

I think Ms is just voting me because they hold a grudge against me which is not really alignment indicative, but shows they are bordering on not playing to their win con.

I like GL's response the best. he's not advocating a fast lynch with is good. He's also going over the facts that the other two fail to recognize.

As far as my vote on MM is concerned, I voted them because I didn't like them buddying me and that is really the only reason.

I'm going to:

UNVOTE:

for now.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, I can tell you right now Ms is never changing their read on me here, which says something about them as a player.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Lickity: Why are you refusing to answer my questions?

3rd reason sounds like you think he's opportunistic, but that's basically your first reason. Point out to me multiple instances of him being opportunistic than maybe that'll support what you're saying.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he started setting up suspicion on everyone. It gave him multiple outs. And I'm not going to quote 2 entire pages. If you want it, you can easily pull up his ISO and see him suspect nearly every player in this game in a short amount of time. That's extreme for even the most paranoid town player.

I don't like Lion continuing to push the Lickity-jester angle. I didn't like it when Lickity even suggested that, and I find that jester theories/defenses tend to come from scum. Lion's also one of the people pushing both "everyone on the Lickity wagon is scummy" and "Alive shouldn't be townread".

Okay, my thing with Lickety is do you really feel like scum is gonna be saying trolly stuff like 81, 106, 190, 239, etc? I get that 'so reckless that scum wouldn't do it' isn't a compelling argument for towniness, but I don't think there's much there that's significantly scum-indicative either. I thought 219 by Tails was a particularly weak case because point 1 seems to imply he's scum for limiting his scumreads and then point 3 implies he is scum for casting suspicion on a wide number of people.

Plus it's not like the things LQ is actually doing have anti-town motivation to them, and there's several posts in his ISO where he makes insightful pushes or asks useful directed questions.

Regardless, he's chosen to introduce the WIFOM of "is this guy actually town or not?" at a few points in his play, which is why I wouldn't shed a tear if he got vigged. Eventually town will have to deal with him, but I don't think he's gonna make a useful D1 lynch and I think pushing him is basically the easiest thing one can do at the moment.

I like these recent posts from Metal Sonic.

VOTE: Davsto

I'm going to try and start playing a more normal (as normal it is for me) playstyle that I hope people will recognise as my Town play.

As far as All Alone is concerned, I don't get why they are being close to universally Town read here. They have made like two posts and while they do seem pretty townie, I don't like it when people can just skate by with just two posts because if they are scum they are going to continue to lurk.

As far as Nana is concerned I don't see why talking about them is any different than talking about the setup. For shame Ms.

[LicketyQuickety]

Those quotes should not have been in that post. Sorry, was going to comment on them and forgot to in a different post.

[LicketyQuickety]

Those quotes should not have been in that post. Sorry, was going to comment on them and forgot to in a different post.

All the quotes should not be there except the last one on GL's post.

[smiffle]

So, Asp needs to get shot by the vig real soon.

Seems like GL defaulted to a pretty poor vote on Davsto,

Eh, I missed that triforce bit from Davsto the first time around. I remember his vote being poor but I just reread his ISO and overall it's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. But he still hasn't done much scumhunting and I want to see what happens to the gamestate when I put my vote here.

Wtf is this? An experiment? "Let's all vote Dav and see what happens, hur dur." This isn't AP chemistry. Plus now you just sound really uncertain of your vote. The vote that you appeared to put down because you wanted to see what would happen if you put a naked vote in the thread on page 17. What did you want to see happen? What were you even expecting?

Half of this reason is moot now:

Reasoning for my davsto vote is simply that he's voting for a townread and that another townread is voting him.

Other than the fact that this is a really weak reason, it's now half a weak reason, which isn't even a reason at all. That just makes it sheeping at this point.

On a side note, in 387, it sounds like you're trying to read lickety as town, but then you threw a giant fence on those reasons and proceeded to sit on it:

I don't see it as town, I just don't see it as particularly scum either. If we all played like you and Tails right now, we'd run up a wagon on 'obvscum' LQ, then if/when he flipped town (which is likely given sheer probability), we'd be left with virtually no significant information.

That last part is also untrue, as practically everyone in the game has already made substantial interactions with Lickety, or they've given an actual read on him, except for maybe you.

[smiffle]

Lickety's wagon has four votes on it right now, (I'm pretty certain), despite that, it kind of lost some steam ever since Lickety decided to lay off a bit. I don't know what to think about his, "hey guys, I'm going to try and save myself by painting myself as town." approach. It could be for either right or wrong reasons. However, I do get some bad vibes off his unvote, that was probably performed due to pressure. I really wish I could be voting both Lickety and GL at the moment.

[smiffle]

I don't like the sudden movement of some players to throw doubt on the Alive townread or to scumread ALL the players on Lickity. Alive is the towniest person in the game besides me. As for the Lickity wagon scumreads, that's the only thing that makes me think Lickity might be town.

I saw Liskety's recent stance on all alone and it reminded me of this. Lick's stance is for the wrong reason, but I was going to mention how Dav's recent unvote and vote on GL has made him seem a little more townish. Alone's vote on Dav is pretty much old news for an even older reason anyway. I'd say Alone is only a tad town at this point.

I like how you responded to my quiet message, I think you might've doubled your post count in recent pages, and the posts are decent too.

I sense the slightest distancing from this post towards a person who's been nothing but devoted to you for the majority of the game:

Sonic, I wouldn't worry about me if I were you. I have this handled.

There's not really anything to conclude from it, just that your relationship with Sonic is looking a bit one-way.
(like it's always been, hehehe)

[GuiltyLion]

An experiment? "Let's all vote Dav and see what happens, hur dur." This isn't AP chemistry. Plus now you just sound really uncertain of your vote. The vote that you appeared to put down because you wanted to see what would happen if you put a naked vote in the thread on page 17. What did you want to see happen? What were you even expecting?

Yeah, it is an experiment. I didn't ask for anyone else to vote him. I am uncertain of my vote, and I will happily admit this!

I wanted to see Davsto's reaction ("your vote on me is bad, therefore I will vote you"), as well as the reactions of others. You've correctly identified it was a naked and weak vote. Does that make me scum?

That last part is also untrue, as practically everyone in the game has already made substantial interactions with Lickety, or they've given an actual read on him, except for maybe you.

Show me where Klick, ASP, Wanderer, Gendaberry have made "substantial interactions" with Lickety. Theoretically that can be an entire scumteam just lurking this out on the sides while town rips itself up in the process. And then you have some players like Xtomx who just throw out a townread on LQ but that's it, as well as players like MM who claimed LQ was a townread but then decided to vote him for no logical reason a few pages later.

I'm just annoyed that somehow LQ, who is a player who has proven himself consistently hard to read correctly and has been mislynched on D1 many times, is becoming the main focus of the game so far. I'd rather poke around and figure how to read the other players before we go driving up a lynch on one that I haven't sorted yet.