Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[mykonian]

about your hier read lalendra, I think it's worth it to do some additional research. You could be right and she's newb scum, but it could also be a personality thing of someone who thinks the water in the pool is cold and keeps standing by the side. It's just a bit too blatant for it to be really scummy, I think scum has more incentive to avoid it. But then, I didn't put in that extra time to read some of hier's games yet

Yeah, I haven't either, it is very blatant but I also remember flailing hard in my first scum game sooo

I'm missing the panic.


also, haha, got bored waiting for me to make a case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

snip

Making note of this - choosing to post a theory post above all else is scummy.

In 418 as well - easy questions to apply pressure on someone who is getting run up and worm your way onto the wagon. Haschel, why did you choose to respond to Pistachion's reads list before anything else?

A few things really pinged me on this page - the back end of the pistachion wagon grew very quickly. I feel very good that we have at least one, maybe two, scum in Keyser, Myko, Dier and Garmr. < This is today's lynch pool.

Keyser, why did you choose to ISO Hieirama in 424 instead of continuing your catch up? Especially an ISO that resulted in a null read - seems strange, like, what was the point of that post?

[mykonian]

ok, by page 91, I can see how esspecially an older scummer is kind of caught out by the fact that there are already a couple of cases making waves. w/e. It's ok if someone needs more time at that point.

The second real post is 246. 10 pages in, this should have triggered me. It's a series of quotes with responses, where he manages to avoid an entire claim, a whole host of cases and persons of interest and most of his quotes are actually about agreeing with people (soze, me and implosing notably). At the end there's an unvote. Call it buddying, call it w/e, it's not scumhunting.

Then the second thing and this pinged me when I reread it, is that the most complete argument he's presented in any posts is a late day 1 argument about the use of pressure votes. It's much easier to talk about theory if you are worried how your words are going to be recieved. Hence this looks a lot more like a scummy lurk than a lurk of someone who can't keep up.

Or in other words, if I didn't want to lynch garmr, I could very well see myself voting haschel.

[mykonian]

Keyser, Myko, Dier and Garmr.

that lynchpool sucks, dude.

Not sure why you are throwing away a day of scumhunting just to limit your lynch to an argument about the speed of a wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

I will complete my ISO analysis of Lalendra before replying to BlueBloodedToffee.

[Garmr]

about time myko starts looking at other players than me instead mof focusing on me the entire game and ignoring everyone else.

[Keyser Söze]

Lalendra ISO:

It took Lalendra 8 posts until she started analysing posts (post 259).
Calls Mykonian the "scummiest town" and unvotes him

Scum-reads Hieirama:

Hieirama – 76 seems like

feigned scumhunting

, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like

noobscum

.

I will flag Lalendra's vote on Gamr:

I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

I disagree with trying to lynch someone you think is an anti-town townie - I see scum-motivation in supporting an 'easy lynch'.
Lalendra unvotes:

"since Garmr no longer seems like he's just going to mail it in the rest of the game, UNVOTE: Garmr I guess."

Town-reads Dwlee99:

"I agree that Dwlee is town".

Her read of Dierfire is interesting:

There is a lot of ambivalent wording in Dier's posts – “I could see that coming from mafia,” “not a particularly strong case but not a particularly weak one,” “I could see that from mafia,” etc. - which I know a lot of people see as scummy, but I don't necessarily think that's alignment-indicative. There are plenty of people who tend to be wishy-washy as either alignment. The fact that he has only posted 12 times in 112 pages is definitely problematic, I feel like he’s just sort of jumping in with opportunistic votes. While I don’t particularly like his play this game,

I’m not confident in reading him as scum

, because he does have a few good posts where he genuinely seems to be trying to sort the game, but I wish he would post more.

This feels like a mixed read (where Lalendra will be able to both town or scum read Dierfire later).

Diefire now becomes a potential lynch:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but

I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch

, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Felissan also flags this contradiction. Possible back-tracking here:

PEdit:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...

I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Votes Dierfire (post 377) - thus, no longer "undecided".

Possible opportunistic set-up here, opening up to the pistachi0n wagon (where was Lalendra's previous scum-read of pistachi0n?):

Keeping up with the game,

not opposed to the pistachi0 lynch

but I don't want to vote until we have an official VC. I think BBT's point is legit, we won't learn much more going in circles like this, and the Dier wagon isn't going anywhere.

Honestly I wasn't a fan of pistachio before the flip

, so I can't really disagree with anyone voting for him.

Need to see evidence for this.

If people look at my scum meta I should be like confirmed town at this point

The fact that you keep pointing out how town your meta is makes me think that you are analyzing the crap out of it and only scum would need to do that.

I agree with the theory here though - Yes, using town-meta tells to defend yourself is bad-town/scummy.

Lalendra (34 posts) Scum-lean

Her actions seemed to contradict her mixed scum-read on Dierfire. Hinted scum-reading pistachi0n D1, but could not see it in her ISO (but stated her support [was not on the pistachi0n miss-lynch wagon]).

[Keyser Söze]

about time myko starts looking at other players than me instead mof focusing on me the entire game and ignoring everyone else.

You need to stop focusing on yourself too

[Keyser Söze]

A few things really pinged me on this page - the back end of the pistachion wagon grew very quickly. I feel very good that

we have at least one, maybe two, scum in Keyser, Myko, Dier and Garmr. < This is today's lynch pool

.

"This is today's lynch pool"

- I will flag that line as scummy. Why are you lining-up today's lynch-pool based on the D1 miss-lynch wagon?

It's either a lazy town, or lazy scum suggestion.

Why do you think the other 2 votes on that wagon had 'town-motivation' and possibly up to 2 of those 4 votes you highlighted had 'scum-motivation'?

Keyser, why did you choose to ISO Hieirama in 424 instead of continuing your catch up? Especially an ISO that resulted in a null read - seems strange, like, what was the point of that post?

My read on Hieirama was part of my catch-up. My early read on Hieirama was scum-lean. The more posts I have read since my first 'interaction' with her I'm believing the sincerity in her

soft

-scumhunting more. She is still not a town-read though. From her posts I still don't get a sense of the players she thinks are scum. Town's focus should be:

find scum

. Scum's focus:

don't look scummy

. I don't know if RL is holding back her activity

What is wrong in posting my read of Hieirama? Do you agree/disagree with my concerns?

[mykonian]

I had a couple of other issues with bbt as well, but a quick meta check does look good for him. Regardless seems like something for lylo give or take. There are enough other candidates.

[Dierfire]

I like Keyser's recent series of posts. I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Lalendra

@Garmr @Keyser

If you're reading Lalendra as Mafia, I think that you should vote for Lalendra.

@DWL

I'd like you to discuss further your impression that either Lalendra is Mafia or Garmr is. Are you equally willing to vote for either?

[mykonian]

I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

you are one of a kind. <3

[Dwlee99]

I like Keyser's recent series of posts. I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Lalendra

@Garmr @Keyser

If you're reading Lalendra as Mafia, I think that you should vote for Lalendra.

@DWL

I'd like you to discuss further your impression that either Lalendra is Mafia or Garmr is. Are you equally willing to vote for either?

Okay, so Garmr and Lalendra heavily tunneled each other, while not meaning they are instantly un-alligned (my newbie game lmfao) Lalendra then wants to Policy lynch garmr. I think garmr is scum because of the claim, his heavy self-focusing and lack of analysis of anyone that is off his wagon. The idea of a policy lynch on that slot seems so absurd. Policy lynching does not give anyone who started the wagon town points and therefore is absolutely idiotic as scum to try and do, which means that they are unaligned. Currently I'd prefer a garmr lynch but the policy lynch thing makes me think it may have been scum attempting to make a mislynch happen without any repercussions. I'm willing to compromise onto either lynch.

[Dwlee99]

I like Keyser's recent series of posts. I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Lalendra

@Garmr @Keyser

If you're reading Lalendra as Mafia, I think that you should vote for Lalendra.

@DWL

I'd like you to discuss further your impression that either Lalendra is Mafia or Garmr is. Are you equally willing to vote for either?

Okay, so Garmr and Lalendra heavily tunneled each other,

while not meaning they are instantly un-alligned (my newbie game lmfao)

Lalendra then wants to Policy lynch garmr. I think garmr is scum because of the claim, his heavy self-focusing and lack of analysis of anyone that is off his wagon. The idea of a policy lynch on that slot seems so absurd. Policy lynching does not give anyone who started the wagon town points and therefore is absolutely idiotic as scum to try and do, which means that they are unaligned. Currently I'd prefer a garmr lynch but the policy lynch thing makes me think it may have been scum attempting to make a mislynch happen without any repercussions. I'm willing to compromise onto either lynch.

Forgot the other half of this sentence. Should say "While not meaning they are instantly un-alligned (my newbie game lmfao) it's still a good tell."

[Hieirama]

Umf, sorry, had to study for a test today.

@herrcombs

I read the game and everything, but usually I have no strong opinions or suspicions on anything. ((Maybe I'll share some opinions later anyway? Just for the record.)) It's much easier to reply if addressed.

This is exactly where scum want to reside. Scum want to sit on the fence, not giving any strong opinions, so when the wind blows just right, they can opportunistically jump on the town-consensus and not look suspicious. By giving actual opinions and suspicions, you put your own thoughts at risk and scrutiny. Scum don't like to be scrutinized. Town don't give a shit because they have nothing to hide.

I was trying to explain why I didn't jump into the conversations that were happening previously.

And, step back a bit, you're starting to go into the mechanics and the tells and you're not fitting them to the situation just right.

I mean; How does this "jumping onto the Town consensus" fit in this conflict? I'm Town reading the wagonee.

Read, assumption, what's the difference again?

Assumptions are, by definition, something you take for granted without backing proof or evidence. Reads (I think of them synonymous with arguments) require evidence to build and sustain. Throughout the game, reads develop based on new evidence that is presented. By demonstrating your reads are updating to events of the game, you show that you are thinking about the game and trying to solve who is scum. Scum will try to spin narratives and try to make the evidence fit their reads, rather than the other way around. After all, they're trying to mislynch the town, so they are required to lie to achieve their wincon.

So this is why I keep asking you for specific information. I want to see if your thought process is consistent with your play, and whether you're just trying to look townie or actually trying to figure out the game. I have not been satisfied with your responses to my queries. I asked you earlier (169) for your thoughts including your top scum read.

Your answer?

In 180 you referred me to your super-early readlist which came like 100 posts earlier. This told me that you were not updating your reads (I asked for a top scumread) based on the events of the game.

Similarly, I asked you in 467 to specifically provide a

current

read on Garmr. I was like you D1, where I wanted to believe his BP claim at its face, and I didn't want the wagon to go through in case we lynched a PR D1. However, over time I noticed things from him that began to look scummy, including his change-of-mind at the end of D1 up to and including his hammer, that were making me reconsider my read. I wanted to know if you were taking those actions into consideration.

Your answer?

In 520 you referred me to a set of posts you made 300 posts earlier and then implied that you hadn't really considered anything since then.

Alright, fine, should I use hypothesis instaid?
They felt just about the same thing to me, and it'd be wrong to say I have a Town-Lean on Garmr without reason.

I saw, "what're your thoughts on Garmr" and I think; "Eh, didn't I answer this already?". My opinions on who you asked for hasn't changed much, that's the thing you find very scummy I guess, but you know… Just because events didn't change my main opinion doesn't mean I didn't consider them.

It was a way for me to explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy to me (because it apparently was to others) since you did ask about his last few actions.

But you didn't explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy. You responded "That quickhammer though" immediately after it happened, which indicated you thought it was strange. And you later told me "the message that went along with it made sense." Which message? Was the message alignment-indicative (anyone in this game, scum or town, can produce posts that "make sense")? Does it excuse Garmr, who had stated "I am in [no] rush to end the day" (412), and then quickhammered without warning 16 hours later?

Sigh,

That line was supposed to be a "oh lol okay then" sort of thing

I should stop trying to joke around.

The message:

Changed my mind I'm eager to see how this slot flips.

This explains the quickhammer to me, so I don't see anything wrong about it. I said it made sense because it wasn't strange to me. ("Makes sense" is not a tell… its a label I use)
And yes, it does excuse him in my eyes.
What, so is changing your mind scummy now?

You asked me my opinions on Garmr and I said I assumed he was Town. That's not question dodging.

You didn't say "I assume he is Town." You linked me a set of old posts and then said "my main opinion there still stands." You never substantiated your opinion in the first place (aside from your 239 "I can't find any other post I don't like other than #117" -- which isn't even one of Garmr's posts!). You have not indicated your opinion is developing. To me, this is absolutely question dodging.

"My opinion still stands"
Past opinion was: "I assume he's Town."
Sorry, didn't feel like typing it out again.
I didn't substantiate it

well enough

. If you need a clarification, one reason why I Townread him is because his tone sounds like it's at a Town POV.

Oh, that was probably a formatting mistake lol. 95% of my posts are phoneposts((including this one)), I rarely have time to get on computers during the week.

[herrcombs]

Sigh... I think we're speaking a different language. This is not the first time this has happened to me. And I'm starting to believe that this might just be another one of my awful TvTs that I should abandon in order to catch someone who is more likely scum.

Gotta review that Lalendra vs Garmr thing that I've been putting off. Seems like that has merit one way or the other.

[Garmr]

I like Keyser's recent series of posts. I think that lynching Haschel would be better than lynching Garmr, but worse than lynching Hieirama or Lalendra.

UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Lalendra

@Garmr @Keyser

If you're reading Lalendra as Mafia, I think that you should vote for Lalendra.

@DWL

I'd like you to discuss further your impression that either Lalendra is Mafia or Garmr is. Are you equally willing to vote for either?

VOTE: lalendra

[Meanmelter]

@Herrcombs @meanmelter

@Hieirama

You said you agreed with Garmr's last paragraph in his post. Can you explain to me, in your words, where you found me to be misrepresenting him and where I was making it seem like a "giant fucking long time?"

I agreed with the fact that you failed to address his break and how he came back.
I didn't get the "giant fucking long time" part, but I feel as if the " nothing productive " is an understatement,((understatement, misrep sort of go along))

What is there to address about his break? He said he had zero motivation and that he might feel more motivated after two day break. He came back, gave a few reads and quick hammered Pistachi0n.

Perhaps you would like to inform me of what productive thing he did do?

lala hasn't provided any reasons why I amscum. She also hasn't pointed out the bits she agrees with mean melterand why they are correct and no one is questioning her.

Garmr hasn't provided any reasons why he decided to vote for Pistachi0n and if he even found them scummy. He just wanted to end the day because he "Felt we were getting no where."

Your scum reading me hercombs?

Who the fuck shouldn't be tbh.

I'm not trying to shove that under a rug at all. I thought you and Myko could be the scum team. And to me, it looks like you guys still can be.

Struggling to see a Mykonian-Gamr scum-team. They are either town-town or one scum-one town. A hard-tunnel on eachother would be too much of a risky play for D1. The two players whose play has attracted the most attention:

- Mykonian's running/non-stop commentary with many prodding/pushing posts for wagons

he

wants: I will town-lean read his openness/honesty.
- Gamr's bulletproof-roleclaim gameplan gone wrong: I am struggling to see his scum-motivation in being so openly ok with the choices he has made. I don't feel like he has held his hand up and admitted his D1 play was anti-town - which I feel like is possibly going against him (influencing other people's reads on him).

Going to look at Lalendra and Haschel Cedricson ISO's next - two players I neither have a town or scum read of. I have played with Haschel Cedricson before (in that mini-normal he grabbed the game by the balls and scum-hunted

hard

, but he has been notably quiet this game (17 posts).

I just personally have not seen too much convincing evidence against my hypothesis. But there isn't much for it either. It is mostly their D1 aggression towards each other and this post does not sit with me too well -> XXX
In my original post I was thinking he was merely reaction fishing but he has yet to ever really comeback on it. And that's just the one thing giving me a feeling for the idea. Again, not very convincing.

@Keyser Söze: How would you feel if D1 Myko tunneled Garmr? Or perhaps, if Myko started tunneling Garmr D2? Would either change your stance on your opinion on the scum-team hypothesis?

I don't get why people don't like how selective pistachi0n's reads were. Simply, he didn't have a read on them, and it can be better to leave them out then to post null fluff. ((I actually made the mistake of posting that kind of fluff earlier, I realize this and I apologize.))
And the lack of content this is a borderline lurking vote...

The problem with that is that of the five reads he gave, two of them WERE null reads.

He did state he was tired, however. I feel he might have came and posted a more in-detail read on everybody.

@Haschel Cedricson Do you not feel that others who have posted a small amount of reads are also worth voting for? AKA Me and Garmr

[Garmr]

@meanmelter ever heard of a compromise lynch welp yeah that's why I lynched pist and her lynch would of happened anyway.

[Keyser Söze]

I just personally have not seen too much convincing evidence against my hypothesis. But there isn't much for it either. It is mostly their D1 aggression towards each other and this post does not sit with me too well -> XXX
In my original post I was thinking he was merely reaction fishing but he has yet to ever really comeback on it. And that's just the one thing giving me a feeling for the idea. Again, not very convincing.

@Keyser Söze: How would you feel if D1 Myko tunneled Garmr? Or perhaps, if Myko started tunneling Garmr D2? Would either change your stance on your opinion on the scum-team hypothesis?

I'm unsure of your question - mykonian

has

been tunneling Gamr since D1 (or you may have misunderstood what I said?).

mykonian's posts about/to Gamr on Day One

mykonian accuses Gamr of an early scum-tell:

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary. Add to this that he's stepping in to protect someone from an accusation and that little sentence becomes quite damning. Buddying and at the same time showing off his mindset is scummy.

mykonian votes for Gamr:

well garmr sucks

vote garmr

mykonian states "Garmr is scum":

Garmr has mainly defensive posts and has only argued against me, tacks his vote on the wagon. Garmr is scum.

mykonian explaining why Gamr's use of "honestly" is scummy:

The keyword "honestly" is him stepping out of his role and coming with an opinion that he can see is true. So he comes from the mindset where he has to lie (as scum), then finds a situation where it isn't necessary. Herr's town and got falsely accused, garmr comments on it and shows his hand.

It would never work if herr's scum (since he'd be lying). They can't be buddies if the argument holds.

And even if you don't care about the motivation stuff, just look at garmr's overall posting. This is not the only passive post, the only aggression is pushing back against me. Garmr hasn't shown any initiative this game, has posted a couple of defensive posts.

mykonian sounds firm on Gamr scum-read:

I am pretty sure that sentence is garmr thinking he's in the winning position as long as I push against him, since people voted me for it. A high postcount isn't always beneficial for one's survival.

So don't think garmr thinks he can get me off him

, I think he believes he can get me lynched.

mykonian does not believe Gamr's soft-to-hard roleclaim (questions Gamr's motivation): post 204

mykonian still wants to lynch Gamr:

yup. We should lynch him.

mykonian encourages herrcombs to join him on Gamr's wagon (Gamr was L-3): post 218

I do have a policy of lynching people I think scum.

Hieirama's read on Gamr affects mykonian's read on Gamr:

The thing that's really throwing me for a loop here is hier's view of the garmr's case.

mykonian comments on Gamr's playstyle (but not his scum-motivation): post 253

mykonian insists that BlueBloodedToffee look at Gamr:

Not quite sure why you are letting garmr off after a poorly executed fakeclaim and half a case on a (former) lurker.

After that, nothing changed, his posting is still very defensive. Just do a count of his posts, which of them is actually interested in the people around him.

---------------------

Then mykonian joins the pistachi0n wagon late (Gamr was not getting lynched D1):

anyway, might as well put my money where my mouth is.

vote pistache

yup, I could follow that vote.

---------------------

Day Two

mykonian is right back on the Gamr tunnel:

Garmr should die a fiery death as well. Dier is in my blind spot, can't complain.

vote garmr

.

Garmr is a fine wagon obv.

---------------------

I still can't see mykonian-Gamr as scum-scum (serious hard-bussing/scum-reading) - moreover, expecially when Gamr had a wagon formed on D1 and D2.

[Garmr]

Seriously through I ask people to look up my scum meta and bring what they think of it here and no one has done that which makes me think the people who have done that don't want to admit they are wrong.

[Keyser Söze]

Haschel Cedricson and Lalendra have been quiet

[mykonian]

We have a language problem here, I think. Either you don't know what tunneling is, or I don't. The fact that you can quote so many posts is simply a function of me having a lot of posts. It's true that garmr has been my top suspect for the whole game, but he's hardly been my only one. I've voiced suspicions of other people and nuanced why they would be scum. Also found and called a couple of people town.

I'd be pretty said that should I die tonight, my entire game would be characterised as "he just wanted to lynch garmr". There's plenty of other stuff there and some of it I'm pretty sure is about right (hier's gotten a significant portion of my attention already, I think my last post about that should give you enough to discern if she's uncomfortable town or uncomfortable scum). Same with the feli townread, I know this wasn't popular but I'd be pretty sad if it were forgotten.

[Garmr]

snip

Making note of this - choosing to post a theory post above all else is scummy.

In 418 as well - easy questions to apply pressure on someone who is getting run up and worm your way onto the wagon. Haschel, why did you choose to respond to Pistachion's reads list before anything else?

A few things really pinged me on this page - the back end of the pistachion wagon grew very quickly. I feel very good that we have at least one, maybe two, scum in Keyser, Myko, Dier and Garmr. < This is today's lynch pool.

Keyser, why did you choose to ISO Hieirama in 424 instead of continuing your catch up? Especially an ISO that resulted in a null read - seems strange, like, what was the point of that post?

Your not the vigilante then? I thought you crumbed shooting me and you were hinting at acknowledging me as town when you entranced confirming i am indeed bulletproof that's why I changed my read on you to town.

[Garmr]

We have a language problem here, I think. Either you don't know what tunneling is, or I don't. The fact that you can quote so many posts is simply a function of me having a lot of posts. It's true that garmr has been my top suspect for the whole game, but he's hardly been my only one. I've voiced suspicions of other people and nuanced why they would be scum. Also found and called a couple of people town.

I'd be pretty said that should I die tonight, my entire game would be characterised as "he just wanted to lynch garmr". There's plenty of other stuff there and some of it I'm pretty sure is about right (hier's gotten a significant portion of my attention already, I think my last post about that should give you enough to discern if she's uncomfortable town or uncomfortable scum). Same with the feli townread, I know this wasn't popular but I'd be pretty sad if it were forgotten.

90 percent of your posts have been about me and you pretty much only talk about others when people start questioning you and normally not of your own accord you only done a read of your own accord once this game after tunneling me and that was at the just a page or so back.