Mini 497 - Game Over

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Vote: Atticus

Because Gaius Balter is an annoying weasel.

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O rly?

Well, if he's evil, how can I not vote for him?

Vote: Sephiroth

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Oh, I forgot.

I'm sure Cavane can handle this one though.

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Hmm, I misspelt Baltar. <- that's better.


I really don't think dusterhan's vote is that crazy. It's seven for a lynch, so Sephiroth's still safe, since we've got no reason to lynch him. Unless he's scum, cos then we should totally lynch him.

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I agree with Destructor, we should lynch scum.

Are you sure?

I don't know if he is.

I'm

not even sure.


lol

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I'd FOS TinVision for that FOS, but then I'd probaby do something similar if I was getting bored too. And maybe joost is OMGUS FOSing. lol

Regardless, both TinVision's and joost's latest posts seem reckless and may be worth remembering further down the line.

I also think that dusterhan isn't helping his cause too much with his silence. I don't think it's too much to suggest that may well be lurking.

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Hmm, actually TinVision's FOS isn't so reckless, but that depends on WHY he's doing it. If it IS because he's getting bored, then that's kinda crazy. It would be more sensible if it had to do with dusterhan's vote.

But then I wonder why he didn't just say that.

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So then that was a random FOS? Why on earth would you do that?

I suppose what I'm saying, is that it seems like it was not-so-random. And sure it's reckless. You didn't have to do it. Your throwing suspicion around with your Finger of

Suspicion

.

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I'll second Nekka about analysing the radom voting stage.


I read dusterhan's posts from the other game he's playing in and he was similarly confusing in it, seemingly without realising the negative effect it's having on the Town. I dunno, maybe he's scum in both games, but my first feeling is that he's pro-Town. I realise there's a heap of WIFOM junk going on here, so...

dusterhan, if you're not scum, please stop with the randomness and confusion. It's not really helping the team.

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I think that anything that will spark a decent discussion is helping the team. I wonder if Dusterham is helping himself though. His post #45 does make him seems scummy.

Hinting that you're scum can onl

So I'll keep my vote on him for a while. At least until someone else is acting more scummy.

I think that's a typo there. Can you clarify what you were trying to say?

Also, sure, decent discussions are good, but in this case, it could easily be the Townies that doing it all, in which case we're not really getting much info from the Mafia. What I'm seeing from dusterhan is that he's causing confusion for the sake of confusion, which is terrible for the Town but great for the Mafia.

Which is why I want to try and get this sorted out as soon as possible. dusterhan, if you're not scum, I'm hoping you'll change the way you're approaching this game.

On the other hand, can you explain why you would want to confuse us?

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I'd like to see more posts from Sephiroth, Silver Pheonix, Aimee and Knuck. They seems to be the players who've said the least so far.

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Hmm, I'm not going to hold my breath on that one...

joost, could you explain you FOS on Nirp? That seemed unfounded.

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TinVision's vote on Knuck stood out to me, too. He'd already voted SilverPoenix, then unvoted before placing his new vote on Knuck. Was there something about Knuck that made him a better random vote? If so, this would seem to defeat the notion that Tin's votes were actually

random

at all.

This is compounded by Tin's FOS on dusterhan. Again, he's claimed that this is 'random', but provided a 'joke' for an explanation.

I also noted this posts:

Vote stands til Knuck posts something of content.

It seems superfluous. Almost like an attempt to legitimise his change of vote. Knuck had already been named as a a player who had not said much, so there was no need to single him out in particular. No one had yet bought attention to Tin's vote, and when Poenix did, Tin suggested that it was as good as a random vote.

I disagree with this in two ways. Firstly, random.org/dice roll will give you a truly random vote, no strings attached. Even by giving a jokey reason for your post, you open up the possibility that the vote actually

isn't

random but has a particular motive behind it. Secondly, Tin's vote clearly

wasn't

random. He even implicitly admitted this when he noted that he was using his vote to get Knuck to speak, and the fact that he changed his vote to Knuck brings its randomness further into question. Yet TinVision says his vote IS random, or as good as.

Sounding like lies to me.

Unvote
Vote: -TinVision-

And,

FOS: Sephiroth

For spinning words so well. First Nekka's then SilverPheonix's (though I may agree that you didn't have to spin so much with Nekka). Also, in light of my analysis, I find the fact that he called Tin's votes random suspicious.

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EBWOP: "Even by giving a jokey reason for your

vote

...

and apologies for mispelling "Phoenix" twice. =D

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About Nekka:

Though your attempt to get a gift wrapped reason to jump on a (dying) wagon is noted.

This was a 'spin' you put on Nekka's post. I agree that it isn't a good play to ask other people to give you reasons for deciding whether a player is scum or not. But perhaps that is as far as Nekka was going. I don't believe there was anything in his post that was was inherently scummy, but you presented it as if it was.

About SilverPhoenix:

Likewise, SP's defense of Dusterhan is noted. This post is suspect, because you call a random vote absurd.

Phoenix's post was more about TinVision than dusterhan. Seen in a certain light, you could say that it was defending dustrehan, but to me that seems like a stretch.

I should admit that I may have read the line about Phoenix calling a 'random vote absurd' incorrectly. I didn't notice that Phoenix had refered to Tin's vote as 'random' in his post. Regardless, your framing of this is still questionable. My reading of Phoenix's post saw his criticism of Tin's vote revolving not around it being random, but it's 'absurd' reasoning. I think this was clear enough.

In all cases, Sephiroth, you appear to be presenting the posts in a manner that makes them more suspicious than they really are.

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I feel a need to clarify what my issue with Tin's 'random' votes was. It was not the votes themselves, but

what he said about them

. He called them random, yet the way he treated them didn't seem to ring true to this, even in light of Atticus' post on random votes (Post 79). I believe TinVision's post explaining his actions (Post 67) comes across as being

dishonest

, which is my issue. This is not something I would expect from a pro-Town player.

---

Sephiroth, according to your post immediately after my last one, what was it that was notable about Phoenix's post, then? That he called the random vote absurd, or that he called the

reason

for the vote absurd? The latter would seem to make more sense, but you did in fact clearly call the former suspect first. Two posts later, you say this:

My point is that SP himself calls the vote random and calls the reasoning absurd in the same post, which is a contradiction.

This

wasn't

your original point, according to the wording you used. It seems like you reshaped your criticism of Poenix over those two posts.

Regarding dusterhan, I agree with you, Sephiroth, when you say that there is a distiction between describing actions and describing a player. I don't think anyone will doubt that dusterhan's actions have been anti-town, for the reasons you stated. But despite the distinction between actions and players, we draw attention to actions as a reflection on the player. You DID draw suspicion to dusterhan, probably more than anyone else has.

But I think this is a minor point right now.

I feel like Sephiroth has a lot of heat on him at the moment, and half the reason for this is that he's actually posting, so I'm going to lay off for a bit. TinVision, on the other hand hasn't said a word since I voted for him.

I third the Atticus thing. He's posting, but it's minimal. The most he's said only came after he was FOS'd.

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I apologize if I confused with my actions in the random stage, but that was not my intention. Random pressure, in my opinion, is a legitimate tactic to spur activity and instigate revealing reactions.

How much pressure could you have hoped to apply by randomly changing your vote to Knuck? And again, I have to ask how could changing to Knuck possibly have been a better move so far as random votes go? You words are not fitting to your actions.

I did in the initial much longer draft of my post and then accidentally edited it out along with a bunch of fluff. Sorry bout that.

What?!
How did this address the question? And what are you trying to pull here?
Please don't blame me for finding the fact that you claim to have 'edited' out your reasoning, when the lack of it is bought into question, and still fail to present it scummy!!

This bit of side-stepping as well as your unconvincing words about your posts don't sit well with me at all. That's not forgetting the vote on dusterhan either, which again contradicts your words. My vote stands.

Vote: -TinVision-

scumscumscumscum

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I'm going to

FOS: Atticus

because it seems like he's being as good as a lurker. I haven't picked up anything to suggest that he's pro-Town. If anything, it's like he's downplaying most discussions without really contributing much to them besides very general points.

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[quote="-TinVision-"]The only thing I “failed to present” was the fact that I had overlooked dusterhan’s latest post, so I was working from a different set of facts in Post #102 and Post #104. My posts show a clear change in opinion that is completely explained by my having missed dusterhan’s post #93.[quote]

I misread post 109. In stead of

"I did in the initial much longer..."

I read

"I did

an

initial much longer..."

Reading it that way, you seemed to make no reference to missing dusterhan's post at all. But I now see how you did.

That said, I'm wary of accepting this. Perhaps it was an honest mistake on your part, but the fact that joost and Nirp both provided you an explanation before you explained yourself leaves the possibility that you used this to your advantage lingering in my mind.

Beacuse of this and my earlier suspicions, my vote will still stand.

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I don't know what you guys think, so far as tactics go, but even if dusterhan was scum, is he a great threat right now? I'm actually with Atticus on this and I've been ignoring what he's been posting. He's a distraction from more of the solid content we've seen today, and I wonder about the people that would rather discuss his behaviour (or lack thereof).

I feel like lynching dusterhan would be a waste. Either he's fairly harmless scum or bad pro-Town. With the possibilty of the latter in mind, I feel that it isn't the best idea to lynch him, at least not today.

What would we learn if we did and he was scum? No one's running to his defense, so I can't see anyone who can be linked to him in any meaningful way. On the other hand, if he's Town, I guess we could start looking at people who advocated his lynch. But his behaviour is so scummy you can't

really

blame them. I'm assuming he's just new and oblivious to his impact on this game. If I didn't believe this, then my vote would probably be on him too.

Hmm, on that note, I

would

like to see some form of an explanation from him.

If he doesn't post some "content" soon, is that a basis for replacement? I don't think we should use a lynch to solve a problem that could be dealt with through a replacement, if that is all the problem is.

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Why

does this make you feel pro-town?

If we're going to go by tells alone, dusterhan is scum and we should lynch him. I suppose I was being completely irrational. There was no real basis for this feeling. I dunno, wishful thinking? I probably shouldn't have said 'pro-town' at all, actually.

I'll see if I can decode my feelings about dusterhan now.

I get an impression that dusterhan isn't even meaning to lurk, but is not interested in this game enough to read the thread and come to any sort of consolidated opinion. His last post asking for a vote count came across to me like a feelble attempt to appear interested so as not to get replaced or something along those lines.

Due to the scarcity of his posts, there is very little to go by to meaningfully discern his alignment, which is EXACTLY why I don't think he's worth our attention right now. He's been prodded, and has not replied with more content. I'm not holding my breath on seeing a dramatic shift in his contributions to this game any time soon, regardless of how many votes, questions or prods he is given.

If you think someone is scum, why keep them around? Just because he is useless as scum or town doesn't mean he is any less of a threat. If he is scum, he is part of the enemy and we should get rid of him. This is a bit of an odd argument really.

I think he IS less of a threat if he's 'useless'. Unless, of course, if his actions do cause serious confusion, which perhaps they did early on. Scum who are so far undetected, who may have slipped up at some point today, they are greater threats.

Anyway, you missed my main point regarding dusterhan. It wasn't that we should not get rid of him, even if he is scum, but that according to what we'd seen so far, he wasn't a good lynch for today and that

we should be focusing on other players, most of whom have posted more to analyse

. I still think this is true.

If I may quote myself...

He's a distraction from more of the solid content we've seen today, and I wonder about the people that would rather discuss his behaviour (or lack thereof).

Also, I find destructor's attacks on TinVision a bit much. He seems to be going slightly over to attack at this stage. Maybe it's just me, but my gut is telling me perhaps destructor is trying too hard.

I'm still not convinced about his behaviour. Unless I've overlooked something, I don't believe he's addressed my comments about what I saw as contradictions on his part.

Also, that 'edited it out' argument is far too convenient.

So far, I've found TinVision to be scummy throughout this game. Not blatantly anti-Town but definitely scummy, for the reasons I've previously stated. For now I'm content to leave my vote on him.

Sephiroth:

Aggressive, definitely. However, this is evidently a playstyle thing. Overall, I actually like his responses and his opinions, especially about dusterhan. I've found nothing scummy from him at the moment.

This appears to be a contrast to your earlier attitude on Sephiroth, which, from what I can tell, was based on your opinion you stated earlier in this post. You said you find 'those going after [dusterhan] scummy', yet found nothing scummy from Sephiroth?

I understand that your initial FOS on him seemed to be resolved around post 96, but I become curious about you making no reference to this here.

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And i'm being a lurker becuase i want to be

Thanks for saying 'something' dusterhan, but do you realise that lurking isn't a good thing for a pro-Town player to do? And it also doesn't help YOU because it makes you look very suspicious, which might answer your question about why people are 'picking on you'.

Maybe expecting a reply is hopeful, but anyway, dusterhan, I don't think your reason for voting joost is very good. Do you have anything more substantial against joost?

Also, to echo Atticus' question, can you point to more players and, specifically, their posts that you find suspicious?

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i've got no idea who could be mafia... so, lets leave me alone and discuss who else could be a scum

Okay, that post has convinced me you are actually scum.

Vote: Dusterhan

and I doubt I will remove this vote any time soon. If you want to prove you are pro-town you need to join this game, read all the posts and tell us what strikes you as strange or scummy. As long as you don't do that I will suspect you.

Can you explain how that quote has convinced you that dusterhan is scum? I don't mean to defend dusterhan the slightest, but that vote seems a little hasty.

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Sorry for not posting in a while. I'm updating my notes and just had a quick skim through. I don't like the fact that discussion is still going on about dusterhan. I'm still going for a TinVision lynch, and in my skim, saw nothing to change this. He's been defensive and done little to no scum hunting. Maybe the same could be said about dusterhan, but then TV's been around posting more, so for this impression to still exist seems to say something.

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DAMMIT!
I've played in two minis. The first was mod abandonded, and this one looks like it may have met a similar fate. Maybe I curse minis... ._.

But that's pessimistic. I'm sure Cavane will show up soon enough. =D

And yes, I'll have something substantial to say about this game soon. This week's been busy and the next few days may be too, so it'll be after that.

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Sorry, haven't gotten around to finishing my notes, but I'm still

very

uncomfortable with a dusterhan lynch.

My rationale is simple - he's not a threat. He isn't confusing us.

The people who continue to make him an issue are.

Ignore dusterhan, look for other more insidious players and lynch them. If we ever hit a brick wall further down the line, then by all means, get dusterhan. By that time, he'll either have started playing more socially, or been replaced, and then discussion on him would be more informed and appropriate.

I don't condone a dusterhan lynch today at all.

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Finished the reread. I won't post too much, but maybe mostly on those 'insidious players'. heh

kabenon007

Enough seems to have been said about kab. I'll try not to repeat too much.
Despite his scummy posts, he has been scum hunting to a degree and has made pro-Town posts. The last post of his I noted was 188. It's the very last sentance I note.

However, I am considering moving my vote to somewhere where it could do some good, cuz having it on a silent dusterhan is not serving much of a purpose.

He insisted that his vote was on dusterhan for no reason other than him thinking he was scum. In this, he is implying that it had some other purpose, such as pressure, which he pointedly said it wasn't.

This is certainly suspicious, so...

FOS: kabenon007

Nirp

I get a feeling Nirp's been slipping under the radar. I've noticed that in a few of his larger posts he's only really repeated many of the sentiments that have already been tabled without adding much himself. I find going with the flow of discussion and not attempting to influence it like this scummy.

IGMEOY: Nirp

Knuck

I thought his vote on kabenon (Post 162) was a bit opportunistic. Similarly, his vote for dusterhan (Post 222) seemed bandwagonish. He explained his previous 'defence' of dusterhan as a newbie instict. I know I've used being a newbie to explain my own strange actions before as a townie, so maybe that's not so bad, but I thought I'd note it anyway.

-TinVision-

I'd still love to see more pressure on TinVision and am not opposed to lynching him. I mentioned before that he has been defensive and done little scum-hunting so far. I've only really picked up scummy behaviour from him and definitely nothing that gets me close to thinking he's pro-Town.

Still waiting on an answer to these:

I apologize if I confused with my actions in the random stage, but that was not my intention. Random pressure, in my opinion, is a legitimate tactic to spur activity and instigate revealing reactions.

How much pressure could you have hoped to apply by randomly changing your vote to Knuck? And again, I have to ask how could changing to Knuck possibly have been a better move so far as random votes go?

Two of his posts that stood out to me were Post 119 and Post 132.

In 119 and the posts it followed, I didn't like the way TV seemed to ignore the beef of the argument by talking about logic. I also didn't like the way he said "a fact in destructor's favor", since the discussion wasn't really about me at all.

I don’t really know what to do until dusterhan starts posting/gets replaced.

If anyone has a good idea, I’m game.

Doesn't want to scum-hunt and is waiting to see which way the wind blows. That's just scummy.

So my vote is still on TinVision.


I don't have heaps to say about the others. Atticus seems to have picked it up and has been posting (quality, if not quantity). joost is clearly active and scum-hunting. I note his eagerness with the dusterhan wagon, but he has been giving decent reasons for this, though I disagree at this time. Nekka-Lucifer's vote for dusterhan was dodgy, but now that he's been replace he can't really say much more about it. Worth nothing, nonetheless. Sephiroth seems to have slightly moved away from his agressive playstyle but is helping discussion and has been insightful. As much as it sucks to lose a big post and have to write it again, I'd like to know what Sephiroth was going to say. Ctrl+c FTW. =)

FOS: Aimee
FOS: SilverPhoenix

They haven't posted in a while and I'd like to see more from them both.

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Confirm Vote: -TinVision-

For completely ignoring my questions.

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OK, frankly I didn't respond to this for one main reason: No one but you has expressed interest in hearing more about this subject (my actions in the random voting phase) to my knowledge. It's apparent to me that there's little, if anything, I can do to change your mind and you're firmly for lynching me. Anyone else, if you're still left with questions after this, I'll be happy to address them. Otherwise, I'll consider the matter closed.

I don't see the merit of ignoring someone's accusations simply because they're the only one making them, if not to avoid attention.

And how can you say there's little you can do to change my mind, when this is the first time you've responded to my questions? Are you trying to make me look stubborn or something? Maybe I am, but it's not like I didn't ask you to explain yourself before this.

To answer your question: Not much pressure can hope to be applied, but at the beginning of the game, you take what you can get. As to your second question, it's not necessarily better. However, it's a part of an early game strategy to maximize that pressure. People pretty much ignore the first vote completely. The second vote however, as we can see clearly in this game, can get people riled. If a scum gets a vote stuck on them early that they can't be sure is random, it may shake them and lose their composure, revealing something to the town.

This is not a convincing pro-Town tactic, given that there's no way a second random vote from a townie that early in the game could be percieve to not be random when this was a Day start. Backtracking?

Regarding my "brushing off your argument with a discussion on logic" and using the phrase "a point in destructor's favor": I didn't brush the argument off. I pointed out that one cannot claim logical conclusions from the facts you presented. That was important because the "logic" of your argument was claimed as the reason for joining the bandwagon. It's the duty of the town to question and correct when people claim things that are untrue.

kabenon's use of the word 'logic' was trivial. The beef of his post was in this sentence: "The only facts we have are in favor of destructor's analysis."

How was this not true? You suddenly changed your mind and voted dusterhan, afterwards claiming that you edited your explanation out. What you claimed to have written, then deleted, is irrelevant, so far as facts go. Going by what was can all see, the facts

are

in favour of my analysis.

Also, it was perfectly fair to mention you by name in discussing that argument. You presented it; thus, in debating and attempting to refute it, naturally your name might come up. You can't separate content and context in Mafia. Why would you be afraid to have people associating your name with an argument against me?

What you said was not simply associating my name with my arguments. The discussion at the time was about

your

scummy posts and my involvement was to cast light on them. For you to frame the discussion as being a bout between you and me was disingenous. Your own words:

Anyway, I don’t really think that the fact that I did change my mind suddenly is a “fact in destructor’s favor”.

You're absolutely right, it had very little to do with me at all. But it certainly wasn't in

your

favour, and I don't think this is any different right now.


Thanks for the answers, they were satisfactory. I don't feel I need to ask them again. If you wish, you can respond to what I've said and I welcome it.

I still think you're scummy and a good lynch today.

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I'm content, like joost, to wait for more content from Nirp, Aimee and SP before adding anything else. I'd also like to wait until after Atticus posts his PBPA and Sephiroth his thoughts on other players he hasn't mentioned yet.

I grow weary when there are only a few players contributing to discussion, as it excuses any scum that may be lurking.

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@destructor - you label the answers "satisfactory". Why?

It was in response to part of Tin's posts I didn't quote:

Anyway, if you really think that I didn't answer to your argument satisfactorily, restate it in a concise manner and I'll respond to it soon.

It wasn't meant to mean much besides to acknowledge that Tin had responded. Satisfactory answers aren't necessarily pro-Town or scummy, but they do refer to the questions.

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Ugh! I can't get a read on anybody! 'Tis frustrating! I've still got nothing for you guys.

That's not cool, man.

For a start, regarding your post 288, can you explain:
1. Why my case on TinVision is interesting, and
2. Why you won't vote for him?

Besides these questions,

something

from you would be appreciated. I don't think anyone is expecting anything conclusive or profound, but I'm sure you can muster enough content to at least give us some food for though.

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Destructor:

Mainly random stuff, lurker prodding, and meta logic up until post 72 where he attacks TV, as well as myself, though these are only attacks on my playstyle.

No, my attacks (I wouldn't call them that, personally) were on your scummy posts. I don't think a playstyle is an excuse for scumminess.

I also thought the attacks on TV were weak.

Perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully. Essentially, what I saw from TinVision was dishonestly while being defensive. This is scummy behaviour.

He backs down in his attacks on me in post 94.

Only for the sake of discussion. UnFOSing doesn't usually happen, but if it did, I wouldn't necessarily have done it yet.

Destructor again backs down from suspicions in post 126.

All I really did was note that I had misread a post by Tin. I wouldn't call it backing down, since the specific suspicion I raised at the time was based on a misread. My earlier opinion still stood.

I defend my position on lynching Duster, but there is no response from Destructor...

I didn't mean not to refer to your response at all, but I felt no great urge to continue discussing dusterhan. Eventually, when I realised I'd not refered to your post, dusterhan had been replaced and most of your questions were answered/mooted.

From there he attacks TV for a while, then backs down after decent responses.

I backed down (again)? The last thing I said after Tin's response was that I thought we should lynch him. How was that backing down? I think his response made him look scummier!

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Wow, a lot's happened. I'm posting to say I'm here and still in. I'll give this all a read and post any thought's I have soon.

I did notice in my skim that OpposedForce and Aimee haven't posted in a long time. Some prods would be nice, I think, particularly on Aimee.

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Sorry guys, I'm really busy at the moment. I'm still very interested in this game and I'll get right into it sooner than later.

Having a quick read of the previous few posts, I think Atticus is lynch-worthy on account of him being so anti-town! He seems to have an aversion to scum-hunting to boot.

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Post 79.

On Random Votes:

The point of random votes is to gain early vibes and suspicions of people. To give a truly random vote, say from random.org, you can get no reaction from the votee, and thus, no vibe or suspicion. To give a reason for a random vote is fueling this activity, increasing its productivity. To truly suspect someone for a random vote, random FoS, or random vote reason, is degrading to the information process. To

react

to the such things, however, helps the town.

I was having a skim of some of the early pages and this post stuck out to me. It makes no sense. How on earth can a player of the uninformed majority ever claim to give a 'reason' to a random vote that can be considered even slightly legitimate and so 'increase its productivity'?

The sentiment behind this post resembles TinVision's reasoning back here (280):

Not much pressure can hope to be applied, but at the beginning of the game, you take what you can get. As to your second question, it's not necessarily better. However, it's a part of an early game strategy to maximize that pressure. People pretty much ignore the first vote completely. The second vote however, as we can see clearly in this game, can get people riled. If a scum gets a vote stuck on them early that they can't be sure is random, it may shake them and lose their composure, revealing something to the town.

HOS: Atticus

Until I finish reading, my vote on Tin stands.

[destructor]

Hello everyone =) *waves*
I'm freer now, so in the next few days I'll have my updated thoughts posted up. From my memory, I'm still feeling surest about Tin being scum based on the the only scum-tell I think is pretty much fail-safe, and that's 'insincerity' or 'dishonesty'. Also, I'm quite swayed by the fact that he has hardly posted, and the posts he has made are mostly scummy.

But I realise a lot has happened since I posted much content, so I'll have a read, etc. and get some stuff up soon.

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dammit I have a lot to read.
Will post before the weekend's over.

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In advance, I wrote this up last night and just as I was going to post it, my internet connection died. It was late and I stayed up sewing this patchwork post together. I don't want to have to completely rewrite it, so I just went over now before I posted it to revise it.


Firstly, I hate Sephiroth and CKD for leaving those posts that were torture to read. =P

More seriously, I didn't like the way either of them went about it, at least until Sephiroth composed his case. Still, didn't find either one of them particularly more convincing than the other. Sephiroth's case on CKD didn't sway me a huge amount. I think it even came across as almost opportunistic, reachy and simply unconvincing in parts. CKD, I thought, was going about expressing his suspicion of Seph in a very poor fashion which made Seph's rebuttal easier. Even so, for the most part, I agreed with where CKD was coming from, if not where he took it.


I didn't think there was a great case on kabenon, though his recent posts, especially the dichotomy between Seph and CKD, raised my eyebrows, in a bad way, more than anything else he'd said this game.


TinVision is still the most scummy in my eyes. Zero scum-hunting, strawmanning, dishonestly, lurking.

I could see Atticus and TinVision as scum-buddies. Tin deserves to be lynched for pristine scumminess and Atticus deserves to be lynched for lurking and a severe lack of pro-town play this game.

TinVision is still the most scummy in my eyes. Zero scum-hunting, strawmanning, dishonestly, lurking. Like I said earlier, given that a majority of his few posts are scummy and he's posted little to no pro-town content, I think there's a huge chance we'd hit scum if we lynched him.

I can't take Atticus' case on Aimee seriously. Yes, she hasn't posted, but I wouldn't call her play 'lurking' since she seems to have been genuinely away from the site for a while now. You can check most of her current games to verify this. Atticus, on the other hand has been here but provided us with very little help.


I still find Sephiroth suspicious. I really think his arguments about kabenon weren't great, and even a reach. I thought it was ironic that he says kabenon was 'playing semantics games' (317) when Sephiroth has been harping on again and again about how significant the difference is between finding dusterhan's 'post/s' scummy, but not dusterhan himself.

When I look at Seph's posts, I don't see anything that screams pro-town to me. He's dishing out suspicions while being, in my opinion, overly aggressive and defensive. The bulk of his content has apparently been based more around self-preservations than scum-hunting.

Also, his stance on the dusterhan lynch could have been him pushing a mislynch while giving it a pro-town spin. I agree with CKD on this. Lynching a townie is not pro-town, regardless of what spin is put on it. And I already expressed my frustration at the fact that many players (most notably, to my memory, Sephiroth and joost) had decided obsessing over one useless player (dusterhan) and lynching him was more important than scum-hunting.

A few quick Sephiroth quotes from his last post:

... and second off, I'm confident that I can argue myself out of whatever the scum would try to throw at me to engineer a mislynch.

You're suggesting that the only people who would try to lynch you are scum? Ridiculous.

Saying that the people setting up this idea is completely contradictory to me being scum, because there is no reason that my buddies would try to throw me under the wagon.

This is assuming there is only one scum-group. It's entirely possible that there are two scum-groups and/or even a SK, any of which Sephiroth could easily fit in.


I can see Shanba's Post 342 and 380 as evidence of a connection to Sephiroth. His 'case' on Seph was half-hearted. He superficially expresses suspicion of Seph without ever decisively stating that anything is scummy. I also didn't think his case on kab was better than the one that already existed. Interestingly, both TinVision and Atticus commented that Shanba's 343 was insightful, Atticus even calling it agreeable.


I've been significantly less impressed with joosts play later in this game compared to his play earlier. He was scum-hunting and even leading discussion earlier on, and I liked where he was going with it. But lately he seems to have been jumping onto other's case without contributing much himself.


So far as Day 1's lynch, I'd like to see it be TinVision. If not him, Atticus. If neither of them, Sephiroth. I do think, though, that if we want the most information from a lynch, Sephiroth would be the best option of the three. I suppose CKD is an option for the same reasons, but I believe there are more players connected to Seph.

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Oh, and I think the town needs to hold Aimee to that post. I don't think her absence is scummy at all, but that doesn't mean she isn't scum who has avoided the radar for legitimate reasons.

And what about that Flameaxe? Has he even posted any content?

Mod: can Flameaxe be prodded, if he hasn't already?

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Shanba, I think your argument against Seph in 348 wasn't based on anything really scummy. You refer to his behaviour as a scum-tell, but I don't see it like that. I might even call it a reach, and I call it half-hearted because, even before reading Seph's response, I thought it would have been easy to defend against. 380 still reads very much like a defence of Seph than a rebuttal of CKDs logic. Only one sentence in the paragraph even refers to logic at all.

I didn't say that the points you raised about kabenon had already been bought up. By saying I didn't think the case was any better than the one that was already stated, I was saying that I didn't think it was particularly good evidence of him being scum.

About Tin and Atticus, no, I'm not

trying

to link them to you, given that the link already exists by virtue of posts. Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you. Of course I'm going to bring this up.

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Whenever there's a deadline and a dearth of posts around it, I assume scum are sitting back entirely satisfied with where the votes sit.

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So you think it's half-hearted because... you don't agree with my scumtell? I can go and cite examples if you wish.

Definitely, some examples would be good. But to clarify, I just don't find arguments that simply refer to actions as 'scumtells' to be very strong and think most 'tells' aren't anyway. If you'd actually stated what was scummy about what Sephiroth did, then it would have been a more convincing post.

And if someone is scum they have to invent a reason for not posting, something which is risky - forcing scum to commit to a lie is excellent, as if the lie is uncovered we can know they're scum. So no, it's not easy to defend against.

Point about about getting scum to lie is taken. But the point

I'm

making is that Seph didn't even have to lie to answer your post.

As for the second thing, you missed the point. I was defending Sephiroth, but only as a result of trying to explain to ckd just why and how he was wrong, not as a result of who he was voting for. I guarantee you that if I saw craplogic used against anyone I would attack it, and thereby defend the player under attack.

Effectively, an attack against someone's argument will become a defence, direct or indirect, of someone else, yes. But you didn't seem to put much effort into marking this difference. I still think that post reads much more like a defence of Seph than an attack on crap-logic, which is what I said in my last post.

So again, it's a case of you don't think my scumtells are scumtells. I can't argue with that. It would help if you said just exactly what you thought was weak in my case against kab.

Well, I don't know if I'd call it weak. I think what you said was noteworthy. I wasn't sure about the appeals to emotion points though. Overall, it didn't seem as damning a case as you presented it to be. Not enough to call him 'solidly the scummiest player', anyway.

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me?

Shanba, you're ignoring that both Tin and Atticus have mostly lurked through this day, meaning each of their posts are more meaningful than single posts of other players you mentioned. This is why I found it notable. Quoting myself:

Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you.

Was this not clear enough?

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If one is scum, here is a link to Shanba. If both are scum, here is a greater link to Shanba. I don't find Shanba even half as suspicious as either Tin or Atticus, if that's what you're asking. But there is a connection in my mind, due to their actions.

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joost, do you think CKD is more likely scum than TinVision?

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;_;

Go town!

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Jesus, I can't believe this game is actually over. This is the second game I ever joined, the first being mod-abandoned. I've finished four games since. haha

I kind of wish I hadn't been killed night 1, and even if I had been, it would have changed things to be the Doc. In Day 2 I asked JDodge if I could replace in, but he said I shouldn't since I was the Doc. I would have been all over Seph's back. =D

lol, TinVision. I was really wondering why his lurking wasn't a bigger issue. And also why on earth he hadn't been replaced. I thought he was scum till the end just because I had no reason to think otherwise.

And it seems I was right about the Shanba-Sephiroth distancing thing. But I'd forgotten all about it as the game went on.

The town played badly this game with some particularly miserable performances =/. That's not to say that scum didn't play well. Well done guys.

I feel for Mizzy. She didn't deserve to be lynched. I guess I won't be taking any of Flameaxe's hunches seriously. =P