California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Talitha]

Might as well lock that in.

vote: playswithsquirrels

Oman, Cubsfan, Mgm, Zindy, MoS

[Oman]

I'm gonna keep my vote on Skruffs for now. But I do like VitR as town right now.

Skruffs:

I didn't like his first post for one sentence:

if your name is on that list, it is on there simply because I either am not familiar with your playstyle or, perhaps, am interested in hearing from you all first

So you metagamed 6 people into what is essentially a vote. You put a reason behind the early adele vote (that metagaming) and you would really like to keep MGM around (putting him after nolynch) thats quite a bit too much in an opening post. Also you say "Or, perhaps, am interested in hearing from you all first" does that mean you don't want to hear from those on the list? Your wording confuses me.

LML - why don't you have no lynch in yours? Taking your point forward, isn't it odd that you would rather see ANYONE get lynched then go to a no lynch? That strikes me as blood thirsty.

This is off to me, it just sorta puts forward what I see as an inacurate view. I'd say that anylynch is better then no lynch, the game was made for the mechanics of lynching each day and NK each day.

VitR -> Opportunistic. IT is not standard town behavior to not care who gets lynched as long as someone does

See above, I disagree with this nature.

He gets a bit agressive on LML asking me why I didn't vote Skruffs, which is interesting becuase I did, and LML wouldn't be stupid enough to use a point against me that could be so easily slammed.

Nothing for a while and then a mega post which contains some lines that I agree with (DP saying Vit Ri is townie for attacking Skruffs who is likely scum. Saying Skruffs is likely scum for being attacked by a likely townie. Cyclic. etc.)

I am getting a strong town vibe from Vit R, actually posting some mega content that was all about other players for one. I think DP and Skruffs are mutually exclusive scum, they're not buddying up, but there is not enough for a distance call yet.

Unvote. Vote: Skruffs

DP [all others] Vit R No lynch, Oman.

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Skruffs: 5 (Cogito Ergo Sum, foolinc, LoudmouthLee, Oman, VitaminR)
LoudmouthLee: 4 (Adele, Skruffs, Thesp, Zindaras)
jeep: 2 (Dragon Phoenix, Mgm)
PlaysWithSquirrels: 2 (Talitha, xyzzy)
Dragon Phoenix: 1 (PlaysWithSquirrels)
logicticus: 1 (Mastermind of Sin)
Mgm: 1 (jeep)

[Adele]

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

What incentive would scum have to fake random rolls or votes?

I like that question. I have a couple of ideas. The following scenarios are set in a typical mini.

Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote scum 3 so that anyone else voting scum 3 would be attacked.
Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote townie 3 so that they could unvote and defend the townie upon the third vote so, should that that townie ever die, they'll be considered likely GGs be association.

And so on.

Look, the difference between the action and the motivation behind the action is a major pillar of mafia play. Making it crystal-clear is anti-game; it's like pm-quoting (though obviously much less so).

[Thestatusquo]

Hey guys, I'm posting this here because I don't want to be replaced. School just started, so I'm not really capable of giving this game my full attention yet. I will post in depth this weekend.

[Skruffs]

Oman, everyone not listed in my original vote was even LESS likely to be voted than MGM. People are focussing only on what they see and not looking any deeper than that. Frustrating. If I really didn't want MGM to be lynched, I simply would NOT HAVE included him. Not drawn attention to him explicitly by putting him after no lynch. I don't understand why you give LML a 'free pass' for accusing you of something that wasn't true in his fit of throwing out random accusations , and then focus on me for pointing out the errors in most of those accusations.

I like how LML is being meta'd because 'he's always loud and likes to stir things up' but i am being voted for the exact same thing, and I'm not doing it by attacking people based on reasons that were half thought out or misread or just not understood at all. I will have to make a note to play much, much sloppier in the future.

Now I'm curious, why are you attacking me for putting focus on 6 people that I do not know very well? Would it have been better to just ignore them, or to focus on people I am familiar with - like like pooky did with MOS, or PWS and whoever voted him?
Somehow I think if I didn't already have a wagon on me, you wouldn't have paid as much attention to me, Oman, but because it's there, I don't get hte benefit of the doubt.

[Adele]

LML's not being given any credits here, Skruffs - he's actually having a relatively tough time of things according to the Votecount. I can say at least one of those votes was not placed with any kind of eye to lynching, but nontheless; he's not feeling very comfortable right now.

Whereas I, who've probably not contributed much of anything, seem to be mostly slightly trusted. Things are random at this stage - just try to play tight and things'll even out.

See what I did in that last paragraph there, talking you you like a newbie?
Yeah, that was fun.

And seriously, come the weekend I'll be able to contribute as much as I've been wanting to so far (downside of having a "real" job).

[Zindaras]

The only reason I can see for NOT using a list in your vote is if you are scum and haven't yet figured out how you plan to make your list so that it reduces your risk while not tipping your hand.

Don't back peddle. That is clearly stating:

not using a list = scum

There is nothing here about discouraging others to use a list.

In fact, I am upgrading you now to suspect #1:

Unvote Skruffs
Vote jeep

I think this is a good catch. While I believed the disagreement regarding vote lists was more of a game thing, a null tell, this is a contradiction.

I'm guilty of hyperbole. There is no reason to not use a list if you are pro-town. I stand by that.

DP, you take my quote out of context... it was responding to :

I don't particularly like using Concordet voting this early in the game when everything is still too hazy

My response was that there is no reason not to. I may have stated it a little more strongly than needed. If you notice, I only had a list of one in my first vote.

I don't feel it's back peddling. I stand by my statement, but after your comment, I looked at the rules more closely. It hadn't sunk in that the list would only be used at the deadline. So yes, I understand that there is no compelling reason to put out your list yet. But anyone discouraging the use of a list is scummy, IMO.

-JEEP

I think you're contradicting yourself. Early on, you voted Mgm, PWS for not agreeing with you on the list issue. And now you're saying that they weren't scummy. So what is it?

Zindaras: I’m not sure if I totally buy the metagame reasoning for starting the Skruffs wagon before switching to LML.

Skruffs and I have had earlier run-ins. He has caused my completely undeserved death in multiple games. So I want to get rid of that possibility now.

I don't find xyzzy's case on Mgm very convincing. In fact, xyzzy even misrepresents Mgm with this:

Translation: I on't want to take advantage of the tools I've been given. I don't want other people taking advantage of them, either.

When Mgm only stated he wouldn't do the Condorcet voting.

I think that most of xyzzy's posts are just flat-out bad.

Zindaras: You asked about where and how the players I meantioned pressed my buttons - I didn't actually note down the details, just the fact that they did. This was mainly due to it being early day 1 and I don't care to expend too much energy this early

But I want to know how I pushed your buttons.

It is always good to know how to push a woman's buttons.

God, my jokes suck.

I strongly dislike xyzzy's post regarding Mgm.

Unvote

Vote: xyzzy

, jeep, [LoudmouthLee, Skruffs, foolinc]

[jeep]

But anyone discouraging the use of a list is scummy, IMO.

I think you're contradicting yourself. Early on, you voted Mgm, PWS for not agreeing with you on the list issue. And now you're saying that they weren't scummy. So what is it?

Huh? How am I saying they weren't scummy and how am I contradicting myself?

Anyone who DISCOURAGES the use of a list is scummy. That is clear from my post that you quoted, right? People NOT using a list, doesn't make them scummy. It's only if they discourage the use of a list.

I still need to catch up, but this caught my eye, so I'm responding now. I'll catch up on my reading tonight and post again if game night doesn't go too long.

-JEEP

[Zindaras]

Huh? How am I saying they weren't scummy and how am I contradicting myself?

Anyone who DISCOURAGES the use of a list is scummy. That is clear from my post that you quoted, right? People NOT using a list, doesn't make them scummy. It's only if they discourage the use of a list.

I still need to catch up, but this caught my eye, so I'm responding now. I'll catch up on my reading tonight and post again if game night doesn't go too long.

-JEEP

Yeah, but I don't see how Mgm discouraged the use of lists. So, following your own logic, he wasn't scummy, but you did vote him.

[jeep]

To make it clear: I don't particularly like using Concordet voting this early in the game

That is discouraging the use of a list...

-JEEP

[Zindaras]

when everything is still too hazy, so I'll do things the old fashioned way.

That's the rest of the sentence you quote from, and I think that makes it quite clear that he's talking about what he's going to do, not what everyone should do.

[jeep]

It's still discouraging the use of lists. I don't think that the rest of the sentence changes that (which is why I left it off, I fogot to add the elipses.)

-JEEP

[Zindaras]

He says that he doesn't like it, and that

he

will do it differently. He doesn't say anything about what others should or should not do...

[jeep]

Okay, and that changes things how? It still discourages the use of lists.

-JEEP

[logicticus]

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

I was attacking him for being metascummy. I questioned the validity of his dicerolls.

God, Adele. Please read those posts again.

Then we do disagree. Not that MoS is weird - we seem to agree there - but on whether dice tags are good or bad. I maintain that they are bad (that is, they might have a place in-game, but not in the random-voting stage). You appear to prefer them to people saying they used random.org - and I personally would rather people switched to saying "arb vote" than maintain any pretence of or (worse) actual randomness in their initial vote.

I dont get this at all, Adele. Whether or not the dice rolls are good are bad are not even germane to this debate. You accused him of defending MoS, he refutes it and then you respond with this meaningless statement.

Jeep, we seem to disagree on a fundamental game principle. Apart from arbitrary votes, I believe every vote should be justified with a reason. With list-votes being applied in a deadline situation, they will lead without a doubt to the death of the person in question - you can't call a vote that decides someone's life arbitrary, so anything beyond the first vote -if it's arbitrary- HAS to have a reason.

Together with the backpeddeling:
Vote: Jeep

This looks terrible IMO. This looks like MGM trying to justify a vote on a bandwagon thats just getting started. I just dont think this disagreement garners a vote. And then throwing in the backpeddeling just for kicks. Nice.

I agree with Mgm that if one is going to use the list they must be prepared to answer (if not preemptivly post) on every person in there. For example, why Person Y is after no lynch.

I beleive with Jeep completely that scum are the primary group with reason not to use the list, its like lurking but with votes. They vote enough to get by and don't have to let us know what they think about each player.

Mgm and DP found some good stuff together on jeep, but I'm not going to jump on the wagon just yet. It frankly doesn't look like there is enough there.

lots of agreement there. Dont go out on that limb any further...

vote mgm

his post I liked least

Votes/Unvotes not appearing at the bottom of the post are not counted. Tags removed. - Mod

[Zindaras]

I think we're getting in a vicious circle of "Yes, he did"-"No, he didn't".

I see this as Mgm saying he will do something personally. I do not see this as Mgm saying he doesn't want other people to use lists.

Okay, so let's try this one more time. Where does Mgm actively discourage other players from using Condorcet lists in that post?

[Mastermind of Sin]

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

Are you saying that you agree with me? That was the point that I was making exactly. I don't understand your reason for voting me.

My belief: dice-tags and proven-random votes have no place, while arbitrary and possibly-random votes have a place.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.)

Your belief: the opposite (this may simply be my delusion of what you're saying; if so, please clarify).

I've decided to coin a term today.
Metascummy (Adj)
definition: behaviour that is unhelpful to the town but defended as supposedly unscummy due to the user's universal use of the tactic.

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

Once more: my problem isn't that MoS didn't use the dice tags - he couldn't. It's not that he did - he didn't. It's that he pseudo-used it, and tried to "prove" that he had (see his later explanation and overuse of the term "retarded" for further details).

Random voting is never helpful to the town. It only serves to distract the town as they chase after people for making "random" votes. My point is, you cannot say that I am scum based on this. The logic doesn't work out, at all. If I am scum because I tried to make a truly random vote, then I am scum in every game, and this is already proven false. It doesn't matter whether or not you like the tactic. That doesn't change the fact that you can't try to prove me scummy because of it.


Off to dinner, I'll try to post later.

[Oman]

I don't understand why you give LML a 'free pass' for accusing you of something that wasn't true in his fit of throwing out random accusations , and then focus on me for pointing out the errors in most of those accusations.

Because its illogical to think that scum LML would do that. It was the post above, and it doesn't smell of a calculated scum-move. Does anyone hold it against me that LML said I didn't vote for Skruffs? No, and they'd be stupid to. Where's the gain for LML.

I like how LML is being meta'd because 'he's always loud and likes to stir things up' but i am being voted for the exact same thing, and I'm not doing it by attacking people based on reasons that were half thought out or misread or just not understood at all. I will have to make a note to play much, much sloppier in the future.

If LML calls me stupid or a F***ing Noob he'll be right in his playstyle. I haven't seen anything off colour from him

Now I'm curious, why are you attacking me for putting focus on 6 people that I do not know very well? Would it have been better to just ignore them, or to focus on people I am familiar with - like like pooky did with MOS, or PWS and whoever voted him?

I don't understand this bit, sorry. If you mean why about your first vote, I'd say becuase you were voting people PURELY on playstyle, which is attempting to put reason behind a random vote.

Somehow I think if I didn't already have a wagon on me, you wouldn't have paid as much attention to me, Oman, but because it's there, I don't get hte benefit of the doubt.

Probably not, but thats cause you wouldn't have reacted so badly. One of the reasons I don't like you for town is your "back against the wall-lash out at everyone" style atm.

[Mastermind of Sin]

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

What incentive would scum have to fake random rolls or votes?

I like that question. I have a couple of ideas. The following scenarios are set in a typical mini.

Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote scum 3 so that anyone else voting scum 3 would be attacked.
Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote townie 3 so that they could unvote and defend the townie upon the third vote so, should that that townie ever die, they'll be considered likely GGs be association.

And so on.

Look, the difference between the action and the motivation behind the action is a major pillar of mafia play. Making it crystal-clear is anti-game; it's like pm-quoting (though obviously much less so).

So, let's assume I am scum 1 or scum 2. Where are the second and third votes on logicticus?

Making my motivations obvious is not anti-game. It's allowing you to see what motivations I have without having to make wild guesses.

[xyzzy]

Wait, how was I misrepresenting Mgm AT ALL? I took what he said and I sais what it sounded like. The fact that he's good at not looking scummy doesn't mean that when someone says he's scum it means he isn't.

I'm pretty sure I made over 9000 grammatical errors in that sentence. Oh well, as least everything in this post is speled right.

[jeep]

Okay, so let's try this one more time. Where does Mgm actively discourage other players from using Condorcet lists in that post?

*sigh* I pointed out where MGM discourages the use of lists. I never said MGM was as blunt as I am. It's still discouraging the use of lists. It's like advertising. It rarely says: "Go buy this product now." (Don't start pointing out the few that do... I know there are exceptions.) Often you'll see people that you might recognize saying "I use this" or whatever. It's still (at least trying to) encouraging you to buy the product.

-JEEP

[Cubsfan4ever]

Again, I don't think Skruffs is doing anything out the ordinary than what he does in just about every game he plays. It would seem he is getting attacked without differing from his normal play style whereas others such as LmL are seen as easier to understand because they are not doing anything out of how they would normally play.

[Skruffs]

Oman... "If you mean why about your first vote, I'd say becuase you were voting people PURELY on playstyle, which is attempting to put reason behind a random vote."
how can you think I based my first vote entirely on playstyle when I said that I based a good part of it on people who's play styles I have *no* ideas about? LML and Adele were based on play style - Adele's play in open 19 was... Bad, Jester Bad, and I saw every validation for putting her up in the group of people who should be pressured first. That being my only experience with her, I figured that it would be better to get that out of the way now when it can be explained and such.

At what point does responding to accusations become "Lash out at people", and at what point does "randomly accusing people of stuff that's not true" become "last out at people"?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yes MoS,

I'm not saying your scum because of making a random vote.

I am saying you are scum because of the

effort

you've taken to make sure that your vote is seen as completely random.

Why go to that effort unless you have something to hide?
Heck if you had just voted alphabetically it would've taken much less effort, been about as random, and had about the same impact on the game in terms of voting(which is to say pretty much none at all since random votes are kinda worthless and I doubt we'll move into the stage where Condorcet actually plays out on day one)