Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[SeraphicMirth]

I have only read part way through Nelly's first post and WOAH WOAH no no I am not a cop. If i was, I would have been building up a claim against D_O.

[SeraphicMirth]

So, don't take anything I say as solid at all..they are all just my personal opinions from what I have read.

[VampanezeHunter]

Ok. Everyone is allowed their own opinion. But your reasons for voting me are really bad. A) Faking a Vacation!?! Why would I do that? I have people you could ask and they would say I was on Holiday! Bad reason.
B) Hesistating. I'm not a very deciscive person. I saw what happened to you at the beginning of this day and how you were attacked constantly.
Also I gave you a chance and you throw it back in my face! I'm sorry but you haven't even said thanks! Oh well. Major FoS: Nelly

My reasons for voting you are based on my feelings and no proof like I have said several times already, I have already apolgized about making it seem like I was saying you were faking a vacation I thought I already clarfied that it was a thought that crossed my mind. I am sorry.

I was saying that with all the Suspicion you have toward me now that it would appear that you didnt want to hammer me and now you want to draw more attention to me as if you are regretful that you didnt hammer. Once again my opinion and I am sorry you do not feel the same way.

I appologise for getting angry(if you can call it that). I was just miffed that
I don't hammer you and you suspect me. Again I am sorry.

[VampanezeHunter]

EBWOP: My reply thing was weird!

[Nelly632]

First off, welcome to mafia

. I know I've said that a few times but I apparently have to say it again. That's why there are so many quotes in people's posts. This is mafia. Everyone goes through every post with a fine tooth comb and picks out the inconsistencies. If you don't want me to dissect what you say, you may not be in the right place.

Thank you once again for welcoming me to the game of Mafia.I am well aware that people will disect everything you say and you have done a great job in doing just that during the course of the game. As I stated I chose not to mention you because I didn't want to give you just cause to once again repeat yourself.

Second, I already claimed to be defending VH in a way by placing him under a protective 'newbie' sign. I also already stated that sometimes that bites me in the butt. But sadly, that's not something I can simply choose to change. All his tells can be seen as either one(newbie or scum) and I still see them as newbie, whether that's right or not. I defended VH on day 1 with the same argument. Now whether other people see it that way or not is their business, but this is nothing new. I didn't just all of a sudden jump in front of VH to protect him from the mob. Pless asked me on day 1 if I assume everyone's town till I have reason to believe otherwise and I said yes.

I have no problem with you protecting VH I just thing your reasons for protecting him are wrong and not a good way to play this game. You pick and choose who you want to give passes to based on newbie actions. Some consider my actions to be Newbie but they do not give me a pass like you give VH a pass.

As for examining the list of people who voted Khel?

I'm on that list and I know my role so how does looking at the other votes help?

I have no doubt there's both town and scum on that list as almost everyone suspected Khel. But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining. How is looking at the other votes more important than that?

How can you furthur examine the Hammer? I have explained it and you have said that it is not good enough of a excuse. I have no other excuse so in a sense the Hammer can no longer be examined. I think your reasoning for not examining the rest of the list is suspicous, you yourself has just said that the list has your name on it so examining it is pointless. Is that because you do not want someone to look at your name? I think your lack of a open mind in regards to the list is scum like.

Step back, pretend it WASN'T you that hammered but it was someone else, at the same speed, for the same reason. You're telling me you wouldn't be a bit suspiscious? You're not suspiscious only because it's you. To the rest of us it was a very big tell. If you can look at it from a 3rd person view I think you'll understand a bit better.

You are not just a little bit suspiscious you are basing your vote all around the hammer. There are several people in this game who all witnessed the hammer and are not basing everything they do around it. I believe you should take a second and step back before you make a mistake here.

By keeping your vote on me I can come to no other conclusion then to assume that you are infact Scum and will not change your vote regardless.

Unvote: Vote: Muerrto

[Muerrto]

By keeping your vote on me I can come to no other conclusion then to assume that you are infact Scum and will not change your vote regardless.

Unvote: Vote: Muerrto

Bolding everything you say is getting old. And this vote is straight OMGUS because I'm voting you. You even state that yourself.

Vote stands.

[Nelly632]

Bolding everything you say is getting old. And this vote is straight OMGUS because I'm voting you. You even state that yourself.

Vote stands.

The bolding of my words was not meant as a act of hostility or frustration it was simply a way to distinguish my words in the quote from your words. The last part that was in bold was suppose to be inside the quote with the rest of the responses I gave you.

My vote for you is not based on your vote on me it is based on your continued effort to get me lynched without examining any evidence besides the actual hammering. You yourself have placed a extreme amount of game strategy around the Roleclaim that we failed to receive from Khelvaster. My assumption would be that if Khelvaster were to have roleclaimed then you would have changed your vote because like the DO situation in which you failed to vote for a Claimed role. Now in this situation I have claimed my role in this game and because it is not a role that has any real significance in your eyes you choose to hold your vote on me because of pure stubborness.

My vote for you was simply because you can't honestly be town if you are willing to place the town in a Lynch or Lose situation which you are doing by failing to consider other avenues and lift your vote from me after I have Roleclaimed.

[somestrangeflea]

Reading through page 23, I noticed this:

town than scum.

You could probably tell from the rest of that post, but the above quote is the wrong way around...

I'm currently not feeling an urge to unvote Nelly (the analysis was, IMHO, not up to par), however I can say that I'm feeling Nelly's arguements against Muerrto. We've dissected the speed-hammer as much as we can. Can you use it as reasoning for suspicion? Yes. But you keep bringing it up and hacking at Nelly with the same argument over and over again, and it seems as though you're desperately trying to get this to stick.

FoS: Muerrto

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

FYI - Malchonn and Plessiez have requested replacements.

[Muerrto]

I'm currently not feeling an urge to unvote Nelly (the analysis was, IMHO, not up to par), however I can say that I'm feeling Nelly's arguements against Muerrto. We've dissected the speed-hammer as much as we can. Can you use it as reasoning for suspicion? Yes. But you keep bringing it up and hacking at Nelly with the same argument over and over again, and it seems as though you're desperately trying to get this to stick.

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

As for Nelly's RC, I'm not going to try to explain how town isn't an RC. I'll simply put it this way. If you're under suspiscion, and you claim vanilla town, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? If you're under suspiscion, and you claim cop, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? In both cases, nothing. But you're forced to back off the power role for fear they're telling the truth. If you EVER back off someone who claims town it's a bad play. Because if you won't lynch someone who claims town, who will you lynch?

Hell, I guess I did go ahead and explain it. In fact, here's a pretty quote:


If you're willing to vote to lynch someone based on no claim at all, a townie claim should NEVER dissuade you. If you're not willing to lynch someone you find scummy and who doesn't, by their own admission, have a powerrole, then who are you ever going to be willing to lynch?


That's why town is a null claim. You may be telling the truth, you may not. But your claim doesn't and shouldn't affect anyone's suspiscion in either direction.

[somestrangeflea]

As for Nelly's RC, I'm not going to try to explain how town isn't an RC.

Correct. Town is not a role claim, it's an alignment claim. Vanilla Townie, on the other hand, is a role claim, albeit, not a particularly useful one.

I'll simply put it this way. If you're under suspiscion, and you claim vanilla town, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? If you're under suspiscion, and you claim cop, what have you done to alleviate suspiscion? In both cases, nothing. But you're forced to back off the power role for fear they're telling the truth. If you EVER back off someone who claims town it's a bad play. Because if you won't lynch someone who claims town, who will you lynch?

I agree with this.

What I don't get though, is why you even brought up the roleclaim? My post was about the fact that you kept bringing up the Speed-Hammer. In all honesty, the role claim was, with regards to this conversation, irrelevent. It seems as though that entire post was giving an answer to a question which I didn't ask, which seems really weird...

[Nelly632]

While it is apparent that a Vanilla Townie Role Claim would be useless I ask the question what am I suppose to say? The reason for me saying I was Vanilla Townie was to get it out of the way since it is obvious alot of people in this game would like to know a persons role before lynching them. I can't claim a power role because I dont have one but I can tell you that since lynching a townie on this day will lead to a lynch or lose situation you have to consider my roleclaim to be more important on this day then it would be on day one.

I say I am a Townie in the hopes that I can sway everyone in my favor and save a townie lynch on Day Two. I believe by not repeating over and over again that I am townie would be a huge diservice to the town.

I have no viable defense for my Hammer and no excuse for my child like behavior but I see now that the only way to win this game is to hope that the town will believe my Role Claim and look at other avenues for a lynch on this day.

Muerrto is my choice based on the facts I stated previously, I do not expect for the town to do a complete 180 and turn on Muerrto. Hell I will not even ask that because even I am not 100 % convinced he is Scum but if it is him or me who gets lynched today I have to hope that it will be him based on the fact that I know my role and I know for a fact that lynching me would be one less townie at days end. Lynching Muerrto could results in the same situation or it could results in a Scum lynch to end Day Two.

[Muerrto]

What I don't get though, is why you even brought up the roleclaim? My post was about the fact that you kept bringing up the Speed-Hammer. In all honesty, the role claim was, with regards to this conversation, irrelevent. It seems as though that entire post was giving an answer to a question which I didn't ask, which seems really weird...

I was answering Nelly's post above yours just doing it all in 1 post.

[somestrangeflea]

What I don't get though, is why you even brought up the roleclaim? My post was about the fact that you kept bringing up the Speed-Hammer. In all honesty, the role claim was, with regards to this conversation, irrelevent. It seems as though that entire post was giving an answer to a question which I didn't ask, which seems really weird...

I was answering Nelly's post above yours just doing it all in 1 post.

Oh, that makes sense! But then, the only reference you actually made to my post was:

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

...which doesn't actually defend against the points I've mede.

[Muerrto]

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

...which doesn't actually defend against the points I've mede.

Of course it does. My point is that there were most likely both scum and town on Khel's lynch. It's pointless to look at the order or timing to try and decide who is scum that way. Looking at people's posts, interactions etc is how you find scum. Remember that scum know who's town but town doesn't. So how does looking at a list of people who lynched town help us nail scum?

Now looking at the hammer, the timing, the reason etc. does. It was either a bad move or a scum move. If someone wants to bring up a better suspect I'm all ears but for now Nelly's my top suspect. Am I 100%? Of course not. But there has to be an order to suspiscion and he's my top at the moment. Nelly obviously doesn't like that he's my top suspect and is therefore voting me.

[somestrangeflea]

Not at all. He said his reason for voting me was because I refused to look at anyone else on the list of people who voted Khel. I said I was looking at the most important one.

...which doesn't actually defend against the points I've mede.

Of course it does.

My point is that there were most likely both scum and town on Khel's lynch.

Well duh! Unless there are 7 scum in the game...

It's pointless to look at the order or timing to try and decide who is scum that way. Looking at people's posts, interactions etc is how you find scum. Remember that scum know who's town but town doesn't. So how does looking at a list of people who lynched town help us nail scum?

Now looking at the hammer, the timing, the reason etc. does. It was either a bad move or a scum move. If someone wants to bring up a better suspect I'm all ears but for now Nelly's my top suspect. Am I 100%? Of course not. But there has to be an order to suspiscion and he's my top at the moment. Nelly obviously doesn't like that he's my top suspect and is therefore voting me.

OK. My initial point was that you were bringing up Nelly's hammer too often, and that it seemed like you were trying to hard to get it to stick.

Now, your post has listed the benefits of examining the hammer, which are valid points, but that's not actually a defence against "you're bringing up the hammer too much". Yes, examining the hammer will bring some evidence, but my point is that I feel that we got as much information as we can out of it at the start of the Day, and that your persistance to attack Nelly with it looks slightly suspicious.

[Muerrto]

Now, your post has listed the benefits of examining the hammer, which are valid points, but that's not actually a defence against "you're bringing up the hammer too much". Yes, examining the hammer will bring some evidence, but my point is that I feel that we got as much information as we can out of it at the start of the Day, and that your persistance to attack Nelly with it looks slightly suspicious.

Not really. In fact it's been a while since I've attacked him for it. My vote hasn't moved and recently it's been more about trying to convince him how claiming town doesn't alleviate my suspicion, as it shouldn't.

I mention the hammer only when he talks about how I'm not looking at the people who voted for Khel, as if the hammer wasn't a vote for Khel. That's suspicious.

Honestly I think he's scum, so discussing him at all further is pointless. But no one's brought up any other suspects except for myself, which I of course disagree on, and VH, who I still see as kind of off-the-wall newbie. Could my assessment of VH be wrong? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that I still see Nelly as #1 suspect, hence my vote.

Does anyone else have any other suspects? Because I haven't seen any others brought up.

But since we're getting 2 replacements that doesn't really matter at the moment. Let's wait, let them read up, and hear what they have to say.

[Nelly632]

By examining the list we can gather much more information then you know Muerrto...

1) By looking at the list and re-examining the reasons for people casting their vote will give us furthur insight into the mind frame everyone was at when they placed Khelvaster at -1.

2) We can ask everyone on the list what their personally feelings were after the vote before Khelvaster was revealed to be Town. Excluding their opinion of the Hammer but focusing more on if they were confident in their vote prior to the death scene.

3) You claim to have me on the top of your suspect list, well by examining the list furthur you can apply more pressure to the people on the list and hopefully find a scum buddy for your top suspect.

Ultimately by disregarding the list and pointing a finger at me and no one else you fail to gather as much information as possible on Day 2. You are over focusing on the hammering which is your reason for voting me and not focusing enough on drawing out information from me seeing how I am your top suspect.

You seem scummy because you seem content on finishing this day with a lynch on my neck without gathering more information that can benifit us all on Day 3. If this is because you are angry at my actions then I truly apoligize but you need to focus more on getting more information and less on condeming a person who you are not 100 % convinced to be Scum.

You say you have no real suspect besides me but you need to ask yourself why is that? Is that because you have examined all other possible scenarios and have concluded that I am the best choice? I think not. Is it because you have pressured several other players and they seem to have reacted better under pressure? I dont believe so. Or is it more likely that the reason you have failed to find other suspects is because no sane scum member would dare rock the boat and draw attention to themselves while you are on a "witchhunt" that appears to be working to end Day 2 with a town lynch. Too sum up what I just said, you have no other suspects because you have not tried to find any other suspects and if you continue to sit back and wait for someone to slip up you will be waiting a very long time.

That is why I believe you to be Scummy, voting for me based on a very overused point and a failure to seek out other scenarios because of fear that you might either be proved wrong or exposed as Scum.

[somestrangeflea]

Not really. In fact it's been a while since I've attacked him for it.

Oh? So, a day classes as "a while"..?

But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining.

This, to me, reads like bringing up the hammer in an attempt to make it stick, which is what the point of my original post was.

My vote hasn't moved and recently it's been more about trying to convince him how claiming town doesn't alleviate my suspicion, as it shouldn't.

Not related to my post. Stop posting things under quotes which aren't related to the quote plzkthx.

I mention the hammer only when he talks about how I'm not looking at the people who voted for Khel, as if the hammer wasn't a vote for Khel. That's suspicious.

Ah, you mean this:

You have refused to examine the list of people that voted for Khelvaster and continued to hold your vote on me with standing the numerous roleclaims I have stated in my post.

I can see where you're coming from, but to me, that reads more like "you haven't tryed to examine anyone

else

on the list of people who voted for Khelvaster".

But since we're getting 2 replacements that doesn't really matter at the moment. Let's wait, let them read up, and hear what they have to say.

Just because we're getting replacements doesn't mean that conversation has to stop until they arrive.

It may be some time before the replacements arrive anyway. I wouldn't expect to see them until after Day 3 has started, considering I haven't gotten any responses to my request for replacements yet. - Mod

[Nelly632]

But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining.

Can I ask you a hypothetical questions...

Assuming I allowed Khelvaster to Role Claim before I Hammered him and he stated that he was simply a Townie. Which is exactly what he would have claimed if given a chance, he would not have claimed Vig. Would you be attacking me as much over my Hammer & if yes why?

[Muerrto]

But you're the hammer, the speed hammer, and the reason we never found out he was a vig. That's what I'm examining.

Can I ask you a hypothetical questions...

Assuming I allowed Khelvaster to Role Claim before I Hammered him and he stated that he was simply a Townie. Which is exactly what he would have claimed if given a chance, he would not have claimed Vig. Would you be attacking me as much over my Hammer & if yes why?

Not at all. If you want me to link a game where I hammered someone immediately after they claimed town I will. It just ended a couple days ago. I got crap for it the next day because they were town and I had to explain in that game as well that town=null claim. The IC's in the game of course understood but the newbies were like, not always. So I was like, then how do you ever lynch when someone claims town? One of the newbies actually said they'd roll a die. I was like ok, you no longer get to speak.

So if Khel claimed town and you hammered would I have ANY suspiscion for you? No. Honestly besides the hammer and your explanation you've exhibited no scum tells. Look at my opinion of you on day 1. But the problem is, if he'd claimed town that would be on him, not you. Him not being able to claim is on you.

And no, I'm not bringing up the hammer again just replying to your post. That's what I meant by not bringing it up. In fact I'm not sure I've posted without it simply being a reply in several days.

Actually I should amend that. Lot of personal crap going on here in real life(called the cops last night, we'll leave it at that) and I have been quiet recently as Seraph(I think it was Seraph) said. I'll try to do a full re-read since it's my day off tomorrow and give a full synopsis of all players.

[death_omen]

FYI - Malchonn and Plessiez have requested replacements.

One of those two are scum, I can assure you of that.. My thoughts were slipping onto Plessiez before he asked to be replaced.

[Nelly632]

Not at all. If you want me to link a game where I hammered someone immediately after they claimed town I will. It just ended a couple days ago. I got crap for it the next day because they were town and I had to explain in that game as well that town=null claim. The IC's in the game of course understood but the newbies were like, not always. So I was like, then how do you ever lynch when someone claims town? One of the newbies actually said they'd roll a die. I was like ok, you no longer get to speak.

So if Khel claimed town and you hammered would I have ANY suspiscion for you? No. Honestly besides the hammer and your explanation you've exhibited no scum tells. Look at my opinion of you on day 1. But the problem is, if he'd claimed town that would be on him, not you. Him not being able to claim is on you.

And no, I'm not bringing up the hammer again just replying to your post. That's what I meant by not bringing it up. In fact I'm not sure I've posted without it simply being a reply in several days.

Actually I should amend that. Lot of personal crap going on here in real life(called the cops last night, we'll leave it at that) and I have been quiet recently as Seraph(I think it was Seraph) said. I'll try to do a full re-read since it's my day off tomorrow and give a full synopsis of all players.

One of those two are scum, I can assure you of that.. My thoughts were slipping onto Plessiez before he asked to be replaced.

I honestly thought the same thing but there is no real proof as far as I can see...

Thank you for your complete honesty on this subject and it would appear that by speed hammering Khelvaster I ultimately brought this heat upon myself because with him being mistaken about his role if I would have waited I could have avoided this horrible day two experience.

I cannot go back in time I can simply move on with this game in hopes of avoiding my lynch which would be another townie dead to end day 2. Puting your own feelings aside can you please give me a ideal of who your top 3 might be at this time. Obviously I am number one but I am curious to see what the other two names might be.

[Nelly632]

EBWOP

Not at all. If you want me to link a game where I hammered someone immediately after they claimed town I will. It just ended a couple days ago. I got crap for it the next day because they were town and I had to explain in that game as well that town=null claim. The IC's in the game of course understood but the newbies were like, not always. So I was like, then how do you ever lynch when someone claims town? One of the newbies actually said they'd roll a die. I was like ok, you no longer get to speak.

So if Khel claimed town and you hammered would I have ANY suspiscion for you? No. Honestly besides the hammer and your explanation you've exhibited no scum tells. Look at my opinion of you on day 1. But the problem is, if he'd claimed town that would be on him, not you. Him not being able to claim is on you.

And no, I'm not bringing up the hammer again just replying to your post. That's what I meant by not bringing it up. In fact I'm not sure I've posted without it simply being a reply in several days.

Actually I should amend that. Lot of personal crap going on here in real life(called the cops last night, we'll leave it at that) and I have been quiet recently as Seraph(I think it was Seraph) said. I'll try to do a full re-read since it's my day off tomorrow and give a full synopsis of all players.

Thank you for your complete honesty on this subject and it would appear that by speed hammering Khelvaster I ultimately brought this heat upon myself because with him being mistaken about his role if I would have waited I could have avoided this horrible day two experience.

I cannot go back in time I can simply move on with this game in hopes of avoiding my lynch which would be another townie dead to end day 2. Puting your own feelings aside can you please give me a ideal of who your top 3 might be at this time. Obviously I am number one but I am curious to see what the other two names might be.

One of those two are scum, I can assure you of that.. My thoughts were slipping onto Plessiez before he asked to be replaced.

I honestly thought the same thing but there is no real proof as far as I can see...

[somestrangeflea]

That's what I meant by not bringing it up. In fact I'm not sure I've posted without it simply being a reply in several days.

This is true, and I missed that because I was reading your posts in isolation.

You've brought up the hammer when:
A. Someone else has directly posted about the hammer.
B. You posted it when asked about your suspicions.

Now, both of these are valid times to bring up the point, so I'll

un-FoS

for now, but

IKMEOY

because, IMO, there's something about your posts that makes it seem as though you're trying to make that stick. It's just analysis of tone though, and is therefore almost pure conjecture/gut.

One of those two are scum, I can assure you of that.. My thoughts were slipping onto Plessiez before he asked to be replaced.

You can assure us? How?