California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Skruffs: 5 (Cogito Ergo Sum, Dragon Phoenix, LoudmouthLee, Oman, VitaminR)
LoudmouthLee: 3 (Adele, Skruffs, Zindaras)
Cogito Ergo Sum: 1 (Mgm)
Dragon Phoenix: 1 (PlaysWithSquirrels)
logicticus: 1 (Mastermind of Sin)
Mgm: 1 (jeep)

[Zindaras]

Zindaras: don't know what to make of him. Inconsequential posting, attacked Scrubbs vehemently onyl to drop him the moment the wagon gets underway, to switch to LML on gut. Hm. IGMEOY.

I have a history with Skruffs. And while I find his posting somewhat odd and scummy, I don't want to have him at 7 votes. My experiences with quicklynches lately made me not want to keep my vote on him. While I'll agree that it is less likely in a game with this kind of player list, I'm going to have to put the blame with Pavlov on this one.

Regarding Mossy's random voting: I really don't see the point. It was either random, as he says, or still fairly arbitrary, since his first vote (the only one that really matters, after all, especially at this point in the game) was logicticus.

Now, if he had voted Skruffs, I'd have agreed. That's a vote that I would see scum try to subtly push under the pretext of a random vote. But, to be honest, I can't possibly see why MoScum would bother trying to hide a vote on logicticus as a random vote.

[VitaminR]

Also interesting: VitaminR immediately jumping to answer questions I have posited to LML, while at the same time, supposedly, voting me for putting MGM after no lynch. Please look back on that in later days, everyone.

I didn't vote you for putting MGM after no lynch...

Misrepresent: to represent incorrectly, improperly, or falsely.
phail.

Yay, dictionary quotes. Regardless of the official definition, we both know the pragmatic meaning of 'misrepresentation' in a mafia game, especially when you're accusing someone of it, includes intent. How can you find LML scummy for misrepresentation and then argue that misrepresentation isn't wilful?

The reasons for voting me? FOR BEING DEFENSIVE.
Hmm. I'm really sorry, VitaminR. I thought when a townie had four.. no wait five with your vote, votes on him 3 pages into the game for only wanting to lynch a few of the possible suspects for STATED REASONS, that he had the right to

defend himself

.
IF it is scummy for a townie

not

to roll over and take it, please state up now, I'd hate to complicate your wagoning with points of defense. I can be quiet and let you get me lynched if you want.

What? I didn't vote you for defending yourself (and I don't like how MGM copies this blindly later, btw). I voted you for defensive

ness

, the fact that you respond to an accusation by getting overly defensive, slinging wild accusations around instead of calmly answering the questions raised.

MoS always tries to cast a truly random vote. I don't think it's scummy.

I'm not particularly fond of Adele's LML vote. She seems to be voting him for his point of view concerning random votes. That seems a policy disagreement rather than anything to do with alignment.

I agree with MGM about Condorcet voting.

[Skruffs]

Oh also one more thing.

The reason that LML jumped on skruffs to begin with (the no lynch followed by MGM), I think was perfectly explained by sckruffs in a later post when he explained he was mimicing what the mod did.

So I dont find the voting of skruffs to be scummy at all after that explanation.

This needs to be explained further. If it was satisfactorily explained, how does it make the people voting me for it reasonable? If you read it, you would see that I did not simply 'mimic the mod'... but let's pretend I did. This was my first post in the game. You think that this equivalent to a random-vote deserves the wagon I've gotten from it?



I will respond to all posts later on tonight, but I appreciate not being quick lynched.

[logicticus]

Oh also one more thing.

The reason that LML jumped on skruffs to begin with (the no lynch followed by MGM), I think was perfectly explained by sckruffs in a later post when he explained he was mimicing what the mod did.

So I dont find the voting of skruffs to be scummy at all after that explanation.

This needs to be explained further. If it was satisfactorily explained, how does it make the people voting me for it reasonable? If you read it, you would see that I did not simply 'mimic the mod'... but let's pretend I did. This was my first post in the game. You think that this equivalent to a random-vote deserves the wagon I've gotten from it?



I will respond to all posts later on tonight, but I appreciate not being quick lynched.

Well, your wagon is really a combination of several things. In the beginning some votes were simply random and then a random bandwagon, happens all the time. There were a couple of people egging that wagon on.

LML's vote was really the only one that was directly because of your first post. The rest of the votes come from your reaction to his vote with accusing him of misrepresenting you.

VitaminR brought up a great point where true misrepresentation comes with intent. And while I dont think it can be proved either way, I dont believe there was any intent of misrepresentation.

[xyzzy]

I don't really have a long time to post anything extremely useful as of right now, but I may as well vote based on my suspicions.

I think the claim that expressing happiness that the game has started is a scumtell is stupid and random, and that's why my vote is:

Vote: PlaysWithSquirrels

, Skruffs, LML

[Oman]

Dragon: I noted the fact that you put the seventh on because it was the largest number at the time.

This game is pretty intense activity wise, so I don't have a whole lot to say this post, I'll get more later today.

Skruffs is still high on my list, I'll be keeping it there until I see some townie brownies or someone else gets even worse.

Oh and Dragon: Yes, I suck at spelling.

[Cubsfan4ever]

Meh, I know Skruff's rather odd style from playing Big Brother games. Nothing he has done here so far seems too inconsistent with just his natural personality. While I do think he is a rather scummy individual in general, I don't see any abnormalities here that would suggest he was scum in the context of this game.

[Talitha]

To be fair to Skruffs, I think many of us would also have been defensive in response to that very early bandwagon, and the fact it was gathering some momentum. And when a player is defensive an air of OMGUS usually appears in their posts, and it is natural to accuse an accuser of 'misrepresentation' or something similar which, when one has calmed down, one may realise was too strong of a word.

So, no opinion on Skruffs right now.

As I was reading over the day so far I noted down some names that pushed my buttons just a little. I will vote for the only one of them that I am aware already has a vote, and list the remainder (because it's a fun new rule).

vote: playswithsquirrels

, cubsfan, Oman, Zindy, no lynch , MoS

[Zindaras]

How/where did those people push your buttons?

[Adele]

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

Are you saying that you agree with me? That was the point that I was making exactly. I don't understand your reason for voting me.

My belief: dice-tags and proven-random votes have no place, while arbitrary and possibly-random votes have a place.

I don't ever like people who "say" that random.org affected their diceroll. I feel much more relaxed when people use the dice function (as it cannot be editied, and you're aware of that.)

Your belief: the opposite (this may simply be my delusion of what you're saying; if so, please clarify).

I've decided to coin a term today.
Metascummy (Adj)
definition: behaviour that is unhelpful to the town but defended as supposedly unscummy due to the user's universal use of the tactic.

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

Once more: my problem isn't that MoS didn't use the dice tags - he couldn't. It's not that he did - he didn't. It's that he pseudo-used it, and tried to "prove" that he had (see his later explanation and overuse of the term "retarded" for further details).

[LoudmouthLee]

MoS is being metascummy, LmL was (in my opinion) defending him. I'm choosing to make a big deal out of it.

I was

attacking

him for being metascummy. I questioned the validity of his dicerolls.

God, Adele. Please read those posts again.

[jeep]

Okay, I've been asked why pro-town folks would want to use lists instead of a single vote. Well, because there is no reason not to, if you are pro-town. It's not that there is a compelling reason TO use the list. There is just no reason not to unless you are scum.

DP, you are correct that using a list before the deadline has no purpose. It didn't sink in that the lists would ONLY be used at the deadline. For some reason I thought that lists would be used more often. It's still not good policy to discourage people from using lists.

-JEEP

[Adele]

I was

attacking

him for being metascummy. I questioned the validity of his dicerolls.

God, Adele. Please read those posts again.

Then we

do

disagree. Not that MoS is weird - we seem to agree there - but on whether dice tags are good or bad. I maintain that they are bad (that is, they might have a place in-game, but not in the random-voting stage). You appear to prefer them to people saying they used random.org - and I personally would rather people switched to saying "arb vote" than maintain any pretence of or (worse)

actual

randomness in their initial vote.

but thank you for using "metascummy"

Tag fixed. - Mod

[Mgm]

Okay, I've been asked why pro-town folks would want to use lists instead of a single vote. Well, because there is no reason not to, if you are pro-town. It's not that there is a compelling reason TO use the list. There is just no reason not to unless you are scum.

DP, you are correct that using a list before the deadline has no purpose. It didn't sink in that the lists would ONLY be used at the deadline. For some reason I thought that lists would be used more often. It's still not good policy to discourage people from using lists.

-JEEP

Go ahead, ignore post 116 - (sarcasm).

If you use a list, you should do the legwork and explain why every single individual is on it and why each of them is in the position they're in. Otherwise, we're still clueless on voting reasons if it comes to a deadline lynch.

[Dragon Phoenix]

I agree with Mgm. I have for instance posted my feelings about all players so far, and in my opinion that is a lot more valuable than posting vote X, Y, S, Q, R. There is nothing wrong with using that voting method already now, but Jeep's trying to continue to link not using the method to being scum is raising another eyebrow with me. And that's my third one already, so you put me in a bit of a fix.

[jeep]

Post 116? I don't understand.

As for listing a reason for every person on it, I don't do that when I vote a single person, why would I do it for a list?

And DP, you mis-represent my stance. I don't think it's scummy to not use the method. I think it's scummy to discourage using the method.

-JEEP

[Dragon Phoenix]

The only reason I can see for NOT using a list in your vote is if you are scum and haven't yet figured out how you plan to make your list so that it reduces your risk while not tipping your hand.

Don't back peddle. That is clearly stating:

not using a list = scum

There is nothing here about discouraging others to use a list.

In fact, I am upgrading you now to suspect #1:

Unvote Skruffs
Vote jeep

[Mgm]

Jeep, we seem to disagree on a fundamental game principle. Apart from arbitrary votes, I believe every vote should be justified with a reason. With list-votes being applied in a deadline situation, they will lead without a doubt to the death of the person in question - you can't call a vote that decides someone's life arbitrary, so anything beyond the first vote -if it's arbitrary- HAS to have a reason.

Together with the backpeddeling:

Vote: Jeep

[Mgm]

Oops! Forgot to unvote.

Unvote; Vote: jeep

[jeep]

I'm guilty of hyperbole. There is no reason to not use a list if you are pro-town. I stand by that.

DP, you take my quote out of context... it was responding to :

I don't particularly like using Concordet voting this early in the game when everything is still too hazy

My response was that there is no reason not to. I may have stated it a little more strongly than needed. If you notice, I only had a list of one in my first vote.

I don't feel it's back peddling. I stand by my statement, but after your comment, I looked at the rules more closely. It hadn't sunk in that the list would only be used at the deadline. So yes, I understand that there is no compelling reason to put out your list yet. But anyone discouraging the use of a list is scummy, IMO.

-JEEP

[jeep]

Apart from arbitrary votes, I believe every vote should be justified with a reason.

I think they only need to be justified if you want people to follow you. Even then, you don't always need to justify them. So yes, I believe we disagree on that.

-JEEP

[Mgm]

And what if you are following someone else instead of the other way around?

[Oman]

I agree with Mgm that if one is going to use the list they must be prepared to answer (if not preemptivly post) on every person in there. For example, why Person Y is after no lynch.

I beleive with Jeep completely that scum are the primary group with reason not to use the list, its like lurking but with votes. They vote enough to get by and don't have to let us know what they think about each player.

Mgm and DP found some good stuff together on jeep, but I'm not going to jump on the wagon just yet. It frankly doesn't look like there is enough there.

That being said: I don't think anyone should throw away their unbolded list votes. Lets make them mean something before deadline.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Adding players to a list won't magically tell the town what people are thinking, Oman. If you want to know who someone suspects, just ask them, which is true of every game.

I still like my Skruffs vote(and not just because he's the top vote-getter).