STEVEN UNIVERSE MAFIA - GAME OVER

[St Constantine the Hermit]

There is a word for it, but I can't remember it right now.
Certain knowledge is impossible to explain through verbal or written communication.

When someone is scum, it doesn't matter how hard you push a case, you just know what they look like when they make to much noise. Logic is good for vote count analysis and night action analysis, but it wont do anything for raw scumhunting abilities.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and xtoxm, we voted so fast because we knew we were way more active in the game than anyone else currently posting, and three votes were needed for a lynch. It was almost imaginable that two votes would go down on constantine without us having the opportunity to unvote if we wanted to. Plus, ya know, constantine did as little to help town as you did.

Like, constantine, i asked you repeatedly to invade mastin, so we could guarantee she'd hvae a vote, and you NEVER did it. That by itself would have been strong evidence for you as town, if you had just done it so we didn't need to chain ourselves to her slot to make sure she could vote.

Constantine: Please stop referring to "the more experienced players." Just...don't. The more experienced players, who rely on gut, are idiots for doing so, in my opinion. Acting as though their choice to play badly, or at least lazily(in my opinion), makes you right, is absurd.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Titus

Your big on anaylzing vote trends, which I agree with are a good way to catch scum. When your gut gives you correct scumreads over 50% of the time in a game with this many players, you know that it wasn't luck that identified scum.

[Titus]

That is just a pattern you cannot explain Hermit.

I tend to agree with Cerb.

Cerb we should hydra after I am done modding wifom.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Cerberus

Your tune will change, guarantee it. Not stating this as an argument, in so much as a fact.
Raw ability at identifying scum (gut) is the most effective tool one can have this game.

[Titus]

Ugh pedits.

True "gut" is unexplained patterns.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Am I using the wrong word, Titus?

What word should I be using instead of gut?

[Drixx]

What Cerberus said. We both need more than gut to go by. For me gut is just my mind telling me I know something and is a clue for me to stop and re-think things.

You had a really big thing going against you, Constantine, which was the post from the day 2 alliance your slot invaded, and you replaced in. Unknown to us, someone (presumably Tunnel Warriors) thought that your predecessor was replacing out as a strategic move to avoid the pressure I was applying, and Varsoon commented that it was not the case and the replace out was for legitimate reasons (I know quite well they were legitimate ... that post I made, in hindsight, was awful. An aside ends up dominating the post and I didn't even properly communicate what I was saying (that admitting to wanting to kidnap someone against their will isn't exactly non-scummy) and there was a focus on some shared unpleasantness in both of our pasts). When looking at that late in the game, the question was why would Varsoon feel the need to say that for a town replace out? Only one alignment would strategically replace out in that situation.

When we were evaluating everything there was (and it was hard with Xtoxm, because his post history was either slam dunk town or slam dunk scum, but there wasn't enough to tell for sure which way), that little piece along with your refusal to quote your own posts and actions to show why you should be assumed to be town conspired against you.

As you'll see in our PT, we felt like the outcome of the game was on us because we made a critical misplay after the Grapes thing, so while you could have really helped a lot by doing what I begged you to do ... we could have ensured the win even after the fuzzy mislynch, so it's still on us.

I would advise you to consider what folks are saying. I retract my assertion that you are on my WotC list, so now there's nobody there again ... but you know well that your style clashes with a lot of people. Instead of telling them they're wrong and they need to adapt to you ... perhaps you could work on trying to meet folks in the middle?

[Titus]

Nope. Gut is the right word for a nagging feeling you cannot explain because your conscious mind hasn't caught up with the unconscious mind.

[Cerberus v666]

I mean, the logic I'm talking about, isn't even related to NKA/NAA or VCA...it's related to does this thing someone said in post 3735 line up with their expressed beliefs or actions taken in post 2530. If yes, okay, cool. If no, WHY NOT? is there something in the middle there justifying said stance change? if there isn't, why not? Press them on it, tell me why you did this thing. Okay, I have a reason, does that reason actually make sense for a town player? How about a scum player? Does it ring true?

It's not just...mechanical analysis. It's watching play and stances and actions to find inconsistencies.

pedit: Exactly what Titus said.

[Cerberus v666]

People are REALLY fucking smart...and they frequently don't rea

[grapes]

Good game everybody.

Oh yea and before I forget. When conftown is calling the last two people in your lynchpool 100% town, you kinda panic. Like, I figured it was easier just to flip a coin rather than talk you off of your reasoning for townreading fuzzy and xtoxm, because you wouldn't have listened anyway. (and evidently never did) If my reads were shit this game I probably woulda been like whatever but I'd been pretty on point, so.

Plus cage was giving me the go ahead :p. And you even asked 'if you think he's the last scum why didn't you hammer him' like, you can't ask me that, and then turn around and point the figure at me after I do it.

[Titus]

I do feel there's abig WotC on Hermit growing and it is wrong. WotCing players you cannot read who try is stupid and elitist. Sure Hermit has a long way to go, and should probably join secret alt 2, but wotcing him doesn't help.

Nor does policy lynching him.

[ika]

I do feel there's abig WotC on Hermit growing and it is wrong. WotCing players you cannot read who try is stupid and elitist. Sure Hermit has a long way to go, and should probably join secret alt 2, but wotcing him doesn't help.

Nor does policy lynching him.

Its not cus people cant read him titus, its cus he actively refuses to play. Go look at inorgnaic and it should be apparent its not just cus hes unreadable.

I mean there are plenty of players here who cant be read but they get in cus they play

[borkjerfkin]

Gg, was fun to kinda watch.

[Drixx]

Cerberus

Your tune will change, guarantee it. Not stating this as an argument, in so much as a fact.
Raw ability at identifying scum (gut) is the most effective tool one can have this game.

No, it won't change. We've both been playing this game for years. I'm well into my 2nd decade.

What you are calling "gut" is just your brain telling you that you know something. It's lazy to just go with that, as it

will

give false positives and give you people who aren't scum but who are hiding something and your brain picked up on it. Once you learn to realize that it's your brain telling you it caught something, you can learn to figure out what. I figure out a lot of people as town in games just because of that "gut" that makes me reevaluate what I know.

Ugh pedits.

True "gut" is unexplained patterns.

This. It's your brain saying "I've got it!" when you don't consciously know that you do. The best players I've ever seen know how to figure out what that gut is telling them always. On the site Cerberus and I come from there was a guy there who was Legendary in his ability to figure out things stupidly fast. When I would mod games, he would frequently PM me his guess at setup and roles and be 90% right or better ... and he would do this on day 2.

And for the record ... we knew something was off about Xtoxm all game. He was, in fact, ahead of you in our lynch order. I would say the day started and you had more actual tangible things going against you, but you reacted really strangely to the early gambit we threw at you, and then when we unvoted to see if you would make yourself OTAF ... you just kind of flailed around. You should take it as a compliment. We thought you were a godfather and killed KC to throw us off (and given that we had Xtoxm ahead of you in our lynch order until the final day ...).

[Cerberus v666]

People are REALLY fucking smart...and they frequently don't realize exactly how smart they are. Our subconscious is trained to watch for patterns, and things that don't FIT patterns. Gut is when something doesn't match the expected pattern, but you don't actually know what made it not match. If you're good enough, and dedicated enough, you will ALWAYS be able to go back and logically identify WHAT exactly caused that ping.

pedit: grapes, we asked you that because we were curious what you'd say. It wasn't encouragement, if it was, we would have asked for you to vote him.

About the hermit WotC thing: It's not because I can't read him, I don't care about that. it's because he doesn't contribute to the game. It isn't fun to play the game with people who don't talk.

[Drixx]

Good game everybody.

Oh yea and before I forget. When conftown is calling the last two people in your lynchpool 100% town, you kinda panic. Like, I figured it was easier just to flip a coin rather than talk you off of your reasoning for townreading fuzzy and xtoxm, because you wouldn't have listened anyway. (and evidently never did) If my reads were shit this game I probably woulda been like whatever but I'd been pretty on point, so.

Plus cage was giving me the go ahead :p. And you even asked 'if you think he's the last scum why didn't you hammer him' like, you can't ask me that, and then turn around and point the figure at me after I do it.

What kills us is that if you looked at our plan ... Xtoxm was gonna get lynched before Constantine, and if you had accepted your lynch, all reasonable scum candidates were guaranteed to die before the town could be endgamed. Personal agency is a real thing, and you acted within your rights to exercise it, but at least acknowledge that you had already said you wanted out of the game, and that we had to lynch you because of Miller claim, and that if we had lynched you that day and Xtoxm the next day, this game would have been over awhile ago as a town win.

When you exercise personal agency, you have to take responsibility for your agency.

@Titus - I already retracted it, and yes there is a growing rumbling which is a big part of why. I don't think the answer is writing people off right away. But SCtH has to be willing to meet us in the middle. Right now he's standing way over there somewhere away from us and telling us to all come to him ... and I think people are just tired of it and that's why there's that growing rumbling. He respects you a lot ... talk him into coming over to the dark (light) side!

[Drixx]

This, by the way, is the best post game talk ever. You guys made the hurt of losing go away and get replaced by the excitement of learning from the game. Thank you for that.

I felt horrible since we were the IC and it was on us, and we made a critical mistake and have been beating ourselves up about it for awhile. Well ... Cerberus was beating himself up and I would try to stop him, while secretly agreeing with him but I didn't want to make him feel bad because he made the call on all of our final night actions this game except for one night. I felt bad that he would feel like it was primarily his fault when we always agreed on things, so it was equally

our

fault that we made that mistake.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I'm well into my 2nd decade.

20 years? Wow, I'm impressed. You must of been playing it as Werewolf in the 80's.

[Fro99er]

Ftr RR, i'm not the one blocking the PT and i'm sorry Varsoon uses the awful policy of blocking PTs. We have an awesome 75 page scum PT and it sucks that you won't be able to view it.

It's my fault not varsoon's. I said I'll work with him to clean it up Ffs

[Fro99er]

Actually, reading through previous PT's - a lot of the time I tend to make statements which you feel are insulting towards you, but which are not actually meant like that. I hope when I clarify them afterwards, that there's no lingering resentment or anything, since my insults tend to be quite blunt.

Dude you're fine. I just like everyone so I don't want to upset anyone.

Yes I'm a hippy pacifist.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and yes, titus, nothing to apologize for about your game plan revolving around buddying with us, simply because with the knowledge you had, there were two options: 1) Kill us because you know varsoons mod meta, as it were, means he's inclined to make powerful "main character" roles, 2)buddy us and use that to help sculpt an endgame where you'd know how we'd act.

[Drixx]

I'm well into my 2nd decade.

20 years? Wow, I'm impressed. You must of been playing it as Werewolf in the 80's.

Into my 2nd decade (12th year) of

forum

mafia.

I first played live mafia as a party game as a teenager, and if I tell you what decade that was in, then you'll start calling me an old fart.

[Titus]

People are REALLY fucking smart...and they frequently don't realize exactly how smart they are. Our subconscious is trained to watch for patterns, and things that don't FIT patterns. Gut is when something doesn't match the expected pattern, but you don't actually know what made it not match. If you're good enough, and dedicated enough, you will ALWAYS be able to go back and logically identify WHAT exactly caused that ping.

pedit: grapes, we asked you that because we were curious what you'd say. It wasn't encouragement, if it was, we would have asked for you to vote him.

About the hermit WotC thing: It's not because I can't read him, I don't care about that. it's because he doesn't contribute to the game. It isn't fun to play the game with people who don't talk.

True but our brain is also trained to pick up patterns that aren't there. That's why we need a group to verify.

Plus, the group is better than a person. Everyone knows how much a pound weighs. Put a cow in front of everyone and you get wild guesses but the average is better than any expert.