Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[curiouskarmadog]

Early on, many of your posts were non-commital- calling out lurkers, asking others opinions before giving your own, vote counts. "Helpful" things. Plus your reaction to xombie's slip (I'm not sure of whether it is as big a deal as you make it).

and another point, how do you know that my pushing for a Para lynch is not pro-town?

[gorckat]

If xombie comes up scum, of course I'd remove any standing vote/FoS.

and another point, how do you know that my pushing for a Para lynch is not pro-town?

Its not?

[curiouskarmadog]

I am still playing guys, just had some RL problems.

what is the deal with SPAG? His RL problems are not stopping him for posting frequently in other games (3 posts yesterday)...the above post was posted 7 days ago....

[Paradoxombie]

But you ignore my primary argument that if players are always allowed to live simply because they do nothing is pretty stupid. I still pose the question: What keeps scum from acting that way and getting a free ride? I f you want to argue circumstances, then whatever, but just letting people get away with it is inevitably game breaking once scum see the potential.

Simple, actually.

Let's imagine two hypothetical lurky non-contributors named A and B.
A = Vanilla townie who is lurking and non-contributing due to inexperience and/or boredom and/or juvenile humour attempt.
B = Scum who is lurking and acting as a non-contrubutor as a conscious tactic of avoiding a lynch.

I would be prepared to bet that Person A tires of the stupidity (or learns how to play in the case of a newbie) A LOT faster than person B. Anybody who fits A's profile (any of the possibilities) is clearly not going to have the committment this game requires and, thus, will eventually tire of the stupidity and become a plain lurker and then get replaced out.

Anybody who maintains such a persona for an extended time is, in all likelihood, scum.

Thus, as a scum strategy, it would have no point. It might let a scum live one day or so, but in the end it will come crashing down upon them.

Hence, I unequivocally disagree with Para that it is good to lynch such people early on. If they are a lurking scum, they will eventually and rightly come under suspicion for maintaining it for a long time.

Don't give me an argument about such a person posing a risk in LYLO, because in all likelihood I think that a genuine stupid player would, in this game, have given up already. If, even by this stage, someone had maintained such an attitude you might be well advised to suspect them, but at the point of time when Para did so, it is utterly anti-town.

WOW I FEEL SO STUPID, I SHOULD HAVE WORKED THAT OUT MYSELF. THE ONLY EXPLANATION IS THAT I MUST HAVE ACTIVELY IGNORED THIS

OBVIOUS

ANSWER, THAT I'M SURE ALL THE PLAYERS REACHED INDEPENDENTLY. /hyper-sarcasm

Okay so basically any person can now take an extended leave of play as long as they post nonsense? I think you are way overvalueing things. I'm not a very good scum hunter and I think it significantly decreases the odds of finding one when one can just excusably not play like that, then if you have one who lurks fairly effectively, what are the odds that the third one even comes under suspicion(how many players have just slipped by today?) So if scum utilize this whole non-play behavior for just one day, you could waste weeks and weeks of real time just bickering among yourselves, helping scum figure out who to nightkill and developing false suspicions and probably very real prejeduces against one another.

But hey, it's not that big of a deal to me. If one of you had suggested we let Nelly live and given me an argument like this one, then fine, even though I'm arguing about this it's not because I really care passionately about it or somthing. No one offered an alternative. No one tried to reason we with me(Like CKD so generously reasoned with Nelly). So seriously, if you honestly think I was trying to undermine the town then go ahead and lynch me. I really don't have a problem with it now that I've had my say. Still, I think some have been quite unreasonable.

The one thing I can say about para is this theory

is

consistent with that other game. However, the fact that he wanted to lynch them quickly and didnt care about lost conversation is too big of a tell for me. In that other game, he waited a LONG time before he voted to lynch the noncontributor, while in this, the vote came by page 4 or 5, i think.

I lynched both times as soon as it became obvious that the non-contributor wasn't going to comply even when directly asked for contribution. But since you are looking at it from my perspective, why would I care about discussion when we can always discuss on day 2? By then we will have two less townies(probably) to waste suspicion/discussion on. Notice in the original game I think we didn't even bother to finish our day 1 arguments once we realized we were going to lynch hurrikatty. Maybe there is some point in having such a discussion, but I can't think of one, atm

"The simple fact is that you think I'm more scummy than the hermit because he "backtracked" which I believe you attacked him for while I remained consistent"
What simple fact? I said it *might*. Please stop speaking in absolutes.

You definitely expressed your feeling that it was basically better for someone to change their opinion when you confront them versus maintaining an opinion despite opposition. This means you think I'm probably more likely to be lying than someone who does the exact same thing but backtracks immediatly at the first sign of conflict. It's just really stupid, man, and you don't want to admit it.

I still never said that. I said that it was stupid for you to call replacement unethical.

Okay here is the quote:

Unfortunately(unless he's mafia), he's forced our hand. It's 100% necessary to lynch someone who doesn't play.

[...] He[paradoxombie] doesnt take back that we should lynch people who dont post content (at least hermit took it back)

I don't know how else I can interperet this than "it's less scummy to take back what you said than to stick with your arguments"

Also I'll tell you exactly what makes me better than TheHermit. He suggested we lynch OJ power after one post. When I voted Nelly, he had had a chance to either explain himself or change his attitude, with full understanding of his circumstances. On the other hand, The Hermit advocated a lynch without the chance for either, and when there was imminent potential for replacement as well.

and another point, how do you know that my pushing for a Para lynch is not pro-town?

You don't know that me pushing to lynch Nelly wasn't protown! HOW IRONIC!!!!!!!

[curiouskarmadog]

Early on, many of your posts were non-commital- calling out lurkers, asking others opinions before giving your own, vote counts. "Helpful" things. Plus

your reaction

to xombie's slip (I'm not sure of whether it is as big a deal as you make it).

They feel like noob scum to me.

Re-reading xombie, Hermit, ckd, Nelly, Oman, Sir Tornado...I'm not convinced that xombie is the lynch for today. Certainly not the way you are.

I read the bolded as you thought I was noob scum..did I read this wrong?

[curiouskarmadog]

and another point, how do you know that my pushing for a Para lynch is not pro-town?

You don't know that me pushing to lynch Nelly wasn't protown! HOW IRONIC!!!!!!!

were you pushing for a Nelly lynch? I thought your hand was forced...You were almost reluctant to vote. Probably to cover your ass when Nelly came up town...no this is different, I am pushing and my hand wasnt forced.

[Paradoxombie]

Bold is me.

and another point, how do you know that my pushing for a Para lynch is not pro-town?

You don't know that me pushing to lynch Nelly wasn't protown! HOW IRONIC!!!!!!!

were you pushing for a Nelly lynch? I thought your hand was forced...You were almost reluctant to vote.

I wasn't reluctant.

Probably to cover your ass when Nelly came up town...

Is Nelly town? I, for one, do not know.

no this is different, I am pushing and my hand wasnt forced.

No it is the same, both of us advocated a lynch we both claimed was best for the town and were attacked for the way we did it(my purportedly antitown reasoning, your certainly antitown (imo) methods). Somehow you think you should't come under suspicion for this because I guess being antitown shouldn't result in suspicion on you as long as we don't know your tagets alignment. It is more the same than it is different. HOW IRONIC!? .....the answer is "very."

[Albert B. Rampage]

Guys, seriously, pm your friends. I am trying very hard to find replacements before deadline.

[curiouskarmadog]

Guys, seriously, pm your friends. I am trying very hard to find replacements before deadline.

so we can pm them?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Well, yeah...lol. Recruit players for mafia 486! Elias you have a lot of connections since you've been here the longest, maybe you could use your contacting skills to help us out ?

[curiouskarmadog]

oh..you mean replacements?...crap..

I sent SPAG a pm that read..

only writing this because Albert said I could

Guys, seriously, pm your friends. I am trying very hard to find replacements before deadline.

have you forgot about this game?

[curiouskarmadog]

recruits...sure let me see what I can find

???

Geez. lol -Mod

[SPAG]

Hey, im going to try to catch up with this game. I've missed quite a lot, i had ased to be replaced.

Will read through at some point soon.

[curiouskarmadog]

thanks SPAG...we are under a deadline type thing...good luck

[Sir Tornado]

Mod:

I will need too be replaced on Day 2.

Really sorry about this... but I have managed to overload myself with 13 games, and now I don't think I am doing justice to some of them (including this one)

I will complete this day since it is so near the deadline...

[Albert B. Rampage]

omfg

[gorckat]

vote: curiouskarmadog

[vollkan]

This is a pretty bad slip, but I still think the town-tell that Oman said he'd prefer a Paradox vig over anyone else outweighs the scumtell you've pointed out there.

On that note, Oman did say something like:

I object to Para being town = me being scum [/b]

Oman's list was:
Para
Pulse
Elias

Then, Oman supported the plan where Pulse was vigged immediately and Para would be lynched (though, obviously, the lynch was uncertain).

The determinative question is what level Oman was thinking at. Clearly, given his responses, Oman wasn't the most cautious scum player.

Oman was happy for Pulse to be vigged first up, over both Para and Elias. This is odd, because Oman had been expressing "suspicion" of Para and Oman knew that Para was a popular choice. It would have been far easier and safer to take the option of vigging Para for Oman if Para were town. Though, that is countered by the argument that a Para lynch would have been easiest to co-ordinate, so maybe that explains it.

As for Elias, given that Oman was playing so heedlessly, I really think Elias's being placed last is a huge scum-tell. Oman knew that himself, Para and Elias were under threat. By throwing in Pulse, Oman very much looks like adding someone in to prevent a D1 death of Elias. The other possibility, however, is that Oman had pre-empted his own peril and said this to cast further suspicion on Elias (ie. the very situation we are in).

We have 4 days until deadline. A lynch will be of far more help than a No Lynch. My top 3, as they have been consistently, remain Para, Elias and Hermit.

Currently, my preferences are:
1) Para

Unvote, Vote: Paradoxombie

2) Elias
3) Hermit

We need a vote count desperately...

[Albert B. Rampage]

Never fear, rampage is here!

Vote count

TheHermit - 3 (Jordan, Nelly, Paradoxombie)

Paradoxombie - 2 (volkan, ckd)
Ckd - 1 (Gorckat)

Not voting - (Elias, TheHermit, Tornado, SPAG, pulsewidth)

With 11 players, it is 6 to lynch!

[vollkan]

Thanks Albert.

Vote count

TheHermit - 3 (Jordan, Nelly, Paradoxombie)
Paradoxombie - 2 (volkan, ckd)
Ckd - 1 (Gorckat)

Not voting - (Elias, TheHermit, Tornado, SPAG, pulsewidth)

With 11 players, it is 6 to lynch!

As we can see, TheHermit has the most votes and, thus, I assume has the most support for lynching. Given the deadline, I would encourage all people to vote for their number 1 suspect (proving doing so does not result in a hammer). From there, we can determine what to do. This is an unusual way of doing things, but this is also an unusual (in my experience) deadline system (coupled with the chronic lurking).

If it came down to it, I would be prepared to have TheHermit or Elias lynched also, but my preference is Para.

A lynch today will be productive; a no lynch will only help the scum.

We have just 4 days.

Get voting people !!!

[Elias_the_thief]

unvote, vote paradoxombie.

see previous reasons. that puts them both at 3 (and also -3).

[curiouskarmadog]

vote: curiouskarmadog

I am sure a reason is forthcoming.

[Elias_the_thief]

Elias you have a lot of connections since you've been here the longest, maybe you could use your contacting skills to help us out ?

Sorry albert. I've used up almost all my connections getting replacements for my own game (mini 488, needed like 5 replacements or something). Cant help you here, people are already annoyed at me about it.

[Nelly632]

Well as everyone could see from my last post detailing several things in this game that my suspects consisted of two people...

1) Hermit

2) SPAG

SPAG is being replaced which leaves me believing that he might have been neglecting the game more then I thought prior. As I stressed before, I believed his lack of activity to be more scummy then lazy which is mainly why I placed him on my list. Now I will keep him on the list as a distant third.

The Hermit has exhibited alot of scum traits which lead to my vote but his reaction of self vote was very affective on me. As he spoke I thought of the games that I was in (and currently in) where I have reacted to pressure like that and simply gave up and voted for myself. I am not ready to get rid of Hermit yet so I move him to my number two...

OJ Power (Paradoxombie)
Since page one votes came from Oman toward OJ while we were in the random stage he cast the vote for him, unvoted, then cast it again. Then later in the game Oman was more then willing to allow Paradoxombie to be lynched in the scenario that Volkan laid out. Now while it is possible that Oman & Paradoxombie could be scum buddies and Oman was agreeing with Volkan so he could get Pulse Day Killed then turn around and try to convince us not to lynch Paradoxombie, but it scenarios like this I am more inclined to believe the less complicated scenario because 9 out of 10 times those or the actual scenarios…

I have to admit that this is a hard one to call but as I was reading I was swayed by these comments from Volkan...

On that note, Oman did say something like:

I object to Para being town = me being scum

Oman's list was:
Para
Pulse
Elias

Then, Oman supported the plan where Pulse was vigged immediately and

Para would be lynched (though, obviously, the lynch was uncertain).

The determinative question is what level Oman was thinking at. Clearly, given his responses, Oman wasn't the most cautious scum player.

Oman was happy for Pulse to be vigged first up, over both Para and Elias.

This is odd, because Oman had been expressing "suspicion" of Para and Oman knew that Para was a popular choice

.

It would have been far easier and safer to take the option of vigging Para for Oman if Para were town

. Though, that is countered by the argument that a Para lynch would have been easiest to co-ordinate, so maybe that explains it.

As for Elias, given that Oman was playing so heedlessly, I really think Elias's being placed last is a huge scum-tell. Oman knew that himself, Para and Elias were under threat. By throwing in Pulse, Oman very much looks like adding someone in to prevent a D1 death of Elias. The other possibility, however, is that Oman had pre-empted his own peril and said this to cast further suspicion on Elias (ie. the very situation we are in).

We have 4 days until deadline. A lynch will be of far more help than a No Lynch. My top 3, as they have been consistently, remain Para, Elias and Hermit.

Currently, my preferences are:
1) Para Unvote, Vote: Paradoxombie
2) Elias
3) Hermit

We need a vote count desperately...

I base alot of my thoughts regarding Para being town around Oman voting for him and agreeing to his lynch. With Deadline so close I have to consider Volkans scenario as a viable one and honestly say that Paradoxombie is possibly the best lynch we can get for today.

I am still skeptical but I believe this is the right move for us on this day.

Unvote: Vote: Paradoxombie

[TheHermit]

The people I'm most suspicious of right now in order of scumminess:

Elias - I find it hilarious that the same guy who claims my vote for oj was poor was going to lynch Nelly on page 6 for no other reason than because he self-voted. And was going to lynch him over me, even though he claims to be more suspicious of me! Can anyone else see the inherent contradiction here? It seems to me like he jumped on Nelly's wagon because it looked like a convenient ride to a lynch even though he knew there was probably a stronger case against me. I don't like the concept of voting in favor of convenience over legitimate suspicions AT ALL. That's a huge scumtell in my mind. Even after rereading vollkan interrogating him my mind hasn't changed on this, especially given how he continually avoided questions (see vollkan point this out in post 253, which is probably where I got the "shifty" impression from).

paradoxzombie - I still have a hard time believing he merely miscounted the vote. His language is curious, in that vote as well: in post 154 he claims he should be exonerated because he tacked the words "I believe" to the end of his unofficial votecount. Still, Oman came after him pretty hard... he even objected to the idea that para being town meant he was scum in post 167, implying that Oman knew what Para would cardflip as. Of course, Oman being scum, I can't entirely trust that reasoning as he may have just been distancing. Only reason para's not number 1 is that a lot of the people after Para are basing it off of Oman being tricky with his vigging preferences, and I simply don't think Oman was that clever. He fell right into vollkan's trap, after all.

Nelly632 - Maybe not as obvious as the other two above, but I find it odd that he had no stated reason that he voted Elias (post 249) yet I got grilled and he quietly unvoted once vollkan's attention was on me. After that he started focusing on me because I was the center of attention, or at least that's what it felt like. It's possible that his self-voting gambit was just to see if any townies would be dumb enough to vote for him, giving him and the other townies an excuse to go after them, maybe even get a lynch. The odds of accidently getting lynched are rather low, given the town's intense displeasure with ending a day before discussion sets in. I didn't get the idea for this until I reread 293, in which he reasons that his reasons for suspecting everyone who voted for him was on the assumption that he was town, which has yet to be proven. Yes, this is a hypothetical and therefore unprovable. It does, however, dovetail nicely with his sneaky vote on Elias as well as voting for me for "contradictions" that I had already discussed and squared away (MANY posts, 353 says it best). As vollkan explained immediately after there are other problems with my play but being contrary isn't one of them. Come to think of it, he's been following vollkan a lot... Hm. Not sure what I think about that. Call this suspicion a distant third.

(Side note: I'm not sure whether to be happy or not that Nelly has eased on me ever so slightly. On the one hand, yay! Less pressure, I can breathe again! On the other hand, I don't think the given reason for easing his suspicions is a very good one. I probably shouldn't be looking the gift horse in the mouth, but that's what I think.)

Although I have no serious objections to a para lynch,

Vote:Elias_the_thief

for now.

Also: Haven't found anything to justify my suspicion of CKD other than Nelly defending him for unknown reasons, but unless/until Nelly comes up scum there's no use in focusing on this. He has also been hounding after para for a while, but that isn't suspicious until we're more sure about Para (and maybe not even then, depending on the circumstances).

unFOS:curiouskarmadog

for now.