Mini 486: GAME OVER!
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Elias_the_thief He/HimNot Statistically SignificantHe/Him
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"The simple fact is that you think I'm more scummy than the hermit because he "backtracked" which I believe you attacked him for while I remained consistent"
What simple fact? I said it *might*. Please stop speaking in absolutes.
"Again you have no counter argument, you just dismiss my thoughts as ridiculous. How closed minded is that? "
What do you mean, "counterargument"? Maybe, had you posted a reason that lynching a noncontributor was 100% necessary, I would have an argument to counter.
"exactly, we have no idea if he's town or not. So mafia can just act like this and never give up clues or hints. If they never act, they never act scummy we never find the last mafia and we lose by letting him automatically live"
we can see how true this is by the way that nelly has since been playing. Also, only about 3- 4 players in a mini game are anti town. The chances of a random lynch hitting a townie as opposed to a scum is STAGGERING. This is why random lynches are idiotic. They almost always hit town, and there is a chance of hitting a power role on top of that (in this case the only power roles are masons, but im making a case against random lynches in general).
"Sure, vollkan was in the game as well:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
Just check out the first lynch. "
I notice that the player you lynched was a townie. Yet you learned nothing from this.I play the games rul gud.-
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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Elias_the_thief He/HimNot Statistically SignificantHe/Him
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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curiouskarmadog wrote:Whoa what?
This was biggest slip up so far. “soParadoxombie wrote:
Elias_the_thief wrote:
That means a day with no discussion, which is very anti town.
that's too bad, if we're gonna have to lynch some random guy inevitably, why not make it sooner so you can get on with hunting?can get on with hunting”? ummm, aren’tyousuppose to be hunting scum? Why are you not hunting scum? Not only do you state you want the day to end sooner, your justification to Elias is so “you can get on with hunting:”we
HUGE SCUM SLIP UP HERE!
No Para, if I have anything to do with it, we are not going to lynch some random guy. We are going to lynch the scummiest guy in this thread…you.
Believe what you want, none of you seem to want to see things any other way than what you originally expected.
I read the entire thread when I decided that Nelly was my taget for a lynch. I have no idea what Elias is suggesting really.curiouskarmadog wrote:
Really you read the whole thread? Is that why you pulled something out of context for your case, then said I was just skimming through. So are you reading or skimming?Paradoxombie wrote:
Elias_the_thief wrote:
You say its acceptable in certain cirmumstances, yet you dont even try to find out the circumstances in this scenario.
WTF do you mean? I read the whole thread
I saw that post of yours, CKD when I was looking back for somthing. Idr what now, I can figure it out later when I look back at the timing."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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vollkan The Interrogator
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My points:
With regards to the "Should Para have backtracked matter:
In my eyes, it is the fact that you sought a lynch with the "forced our hand" thing in the first place that does it. I honestly don't care about whether or not you backtracked, it bears no contingency upon the scumminess of what you said.Para wrote: haha that's pretty ****ed up, man. I get a get out of jail free card if I just change my mind under preassure? It's like the goddamn inquisition the liars who have no real conviction are the ones who live . And you think I've been unreasonable. I also really don't see why you'd think it's worse than what hermit said, so I'd like an answer to why that is.
Right. I will try and explain why I think it is scummy; may not be other people's reason.Para wrote:
If you really thought it was so bad for me to think this why don't you try to change my mind? I think you guys gave up pretty quickly when we got to actually using logic. This makes me think you people either don't know what you're talking about and are just acting on instinct or alternatively are scum who don't have any authentic beliefs.
A lynch based on reason of non-contribution/oddity/lurking/almost any reason other than suspicion has the following problems:
1) Easily exploited by scum (Case in point: Mini 436. The scum, including myself, rode the anti-lurker sentiment to get the first lynch)
2) Lack of generated information. Without arguments to analyse, the lynch reveals nothing other than the lynchee's role. With a "proper" lynch, you can usually look back at the arguments to learn something.
3) More often than not, the lynchee will be a pro-town player. Query whether this is due to vanillas getting bored or if it just a result of there being MORE townies in a game. The fact remains that the lynch will very likely have a town victim.
The only upside is the lynching of a non-contributor. Is that worth losing a townie, denying one lynch's worth of information AND granting the scum virtually a free NK? I very strongly answer in the negative.-
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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My god...you just slipped up and told us your alignment..not to mention you are arguing for a short Day 1...this is a huge red light..flashing...with sirens...and a small fireworks show..Paradoxombie wrote:curiouskarmadog wrote:Whoa what?
This was biggest slip up so far. “soParadoxombie wrote:
Elias_the_thief wrote:
That means a day with no discussion, which is very anti town.
that's too bad, if we're gonna have to lynch some random guy inevitably, why not make it sooner so you can get on with hunting?can get on with hunting”? ummm, aren’tyousuppose to be hunting scum? Why are you not hunting scum? Not only do you state you want the day to end sooner, your justification to Elias is so “you can get on with hunting:”we
HUGE SCUM SLIP UP HERE!
No Para, if I have anything to do with it, we are not going to lynch some random guy. We are going to lynch the scummiest guy in this thread…you.
Believe what you want, none of you seem to want to see things any other way than what you originally expected.
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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But you ignore my primary argument that if players are always allowed to live simply because they do nothing is pretty stupid. I still pose the question: What keeps scum from acting that way and getting a free ride? I f you want to argue circumstances, then whatever, but just letting people get away with it is inevitably game breaking once scum see the potential.vollkan wrote:
Right. I will try and explain why I think it is scummy; may not be other people's reason.Para wrote:
If you really thought it was so bad for me to think this why don't you try to change my mind? I think you guys gave up pretty quickly when we got to actually using logic. This makes me think you people either don't know what you're talking about and are just acting on instinct or alternatively are scum who don't have any authentic beliefs.
A lynch based on reason of non-contribution/oddity/lurking/almost any reason other than suspicion has the following problems:
1) Easily exploited by scum (Case in point: Mini 436. The scum, including myself, rode the anti-lurker sentiment to get the first lynch)
2) Lack of generated information. Without arguments to analyse, the lynch reveals nothing other than the lynchee's role. With a "proper" lynch, you can usually look back at the arguments to learn something.
3) More often than not, the lynchee will be a pro-town player. Query whether this is due to vanillas getting bored or if it just a result of there being MORE townies in a game. The fact remains that the lynch will very likely have a town victim.
The only upside is the lynching of a non-contributor. Is that worth losing a townie, denying one lynch's worth of information AND granting the scum virtually a free NK? I very strongly answer in the negative.
I realize there are obvious and harsh consequences, but it's better than just ignoring the possibility of it being a scumtactic. By completely allowing it freely you guarantee that one day you will lose to someone who does utilize it against you. So overall you are giving them a much greater tool than the handicap caused by killing a noncontributor.
Additionally by getting it done sooner rather than later you still reduce the pool of possible scum suspects, so it's not all bad news. And don't forget, while it is a semi-random lynch overall, you also force the mafia to make a semi-random NK. They can't pick off more advanced players or pick up power role clues.
You being very thick. I've already said that in the end you will lynch more town than mafia. But hey, it's little difference, the odds of lynching scum even with a full day are quite bad.Elias_the_thief wrote: "Sure, vollkan was in the game as well:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
Just check out the first lynch. "
I notice that the player you lynched was a townie. Yet you learned nothing from this.
You only entertain me.curiouskarmadog wrote:
My god...you just slipped up and told us your alignment..not to mention you are arguing for a short Day 1...this is a huge red light..flashing...with sirens...and a small fireworks show..Paradoxombie wrote:curiouskarmadog wrote:Whoa what?
This was biggest slip up so far. “soParadoxombie wrote:
Elias_the_thief wrote:
That means a day with no discussion, which is very anti town.
that's too bad, if we're gonna have to lynch some random guy inevitably, why not make it sooner so you can get on with hunting?can get on with hunting”? ummm, aren’tyousuppose to be hunting scum? Why are you not hunting scum? Not only do you state you want the day to end sooner, your justification to Elias is so “you can get on with hunting:”we
HUGE SCUM SLIP UP HERE!
No Para, if I have anything to do with it, we are not going to lynch some random guy. We are going to lynch the scummiest guy in this thread…you.
Believe what you want, none of you seem to want to see things any other way than what you originally expected.
"Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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Paradoxombie Mafia Scum
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You definitely expressed your feeling that it was basically better for someone to change their opinion when you confront them versus maintaining an opinion despite opposition. This means you think I'm probably more likely to be lying than someone who does the exact same thing but backtracks immediatly at the first sign of conflict. It's just really stupid, man, and you don't want to admit it.Elias_the_thief wrote:"The simple fact is that you think I'm more scummy than the hermit because he "backtracked" which I believe you attacked him for while I remained consistent"
What simple fact? I said it *might*. Please stop speaking in absolutes."Beware of Zombie Entanglements."
-George Washington
So it goes.-
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Elias_the_thief He/HimNot Statistically SignificantHe/Him
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vollkan The Interrogator
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Simple, actually.But you ignore my primary argument that if players are always allowed to live simply because they do nothing is pretty stupid. I still pose the question: What keeps scum from acting that way and getting a free ride? I f you want to argue circumstances, then whatever, but just letting people get away with it is inevitably game breaking once scum see the potential.
Let's imagine two hypothetical lurky non-contributors named A and B.
A = Vanilla townie who is lurking and non-contributing due to inexperience and/or boredom and/or juvenile humour attempt.
B = Scum who is lurking and acting as a non-contrubutor as a conscious tactic of avoiding a lynch.
I would be prepared to bet that Person A tires of the stupidity (or learns how to play in the case of a newbie) A LOT faster than person B. Anybody who fits A's profile (any of the possibilities) is clearly not going to have the committment this game requires and, thus, will eventually tire of the stupidity and become a plain lurker and then get replaced out.
Anybody who maintains such a persona for an extended time is, in all likelihood, scum.
Thus, as a scum strategy, it would have no point. It might let a scum live one day or so, but in the end it will come crashing down upon them.
Hence, I unequivocally disagree with Para that it is good to lynch such people early on. If they are a lurking scum, they will eventually and rightly come under suspicion for maintaining it for a long time.
Don't give me an argument about such a person posing a risk in LYLO, because in all likelihood I think that a genuine stupid player would, in this game, have given up already. If, even by this stage, someone had maintained such an attitude you might be well advised to suspect them, but at the point of time when Para did so, it is utterly anti-town.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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vote: Sir Tornado
A little out of left field, I admit, but he promised us a post 5 days ago at the same time he apologized for lurking for 5 days. He has numerous posts in other games since then.
Comments on the actual events of the last two days shortly. I've read up and want to mull it over for a short bit.-
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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you do understand if we dont get the votes needed for a lynch, we have a no lynch right?gorckat wrote:vote: Sir Tornado
A little out of left field, I admit, but he promised us a post 5 days ago at the same time he apologized for lurking for 5 days. He has numerous posts in other games since then.
Comments on the actual events of the last two days shortly. I've read up and want to mull it over for a short bit.
at least that is my understandingNO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Yes. A lot of my re-re-reading of the last few days and of individual posters has been of Hermit and xombie.
I'm looking for anything in their posts, as well as other's I've looked at, to guide me under deadline. I want to be as certain as I can before deadline lynching.
My vote on Sir is somewhat 'proddy', but I feel its important to note when people say they'll post and then don't, especially when they're very active elsewhere (as I said above).
One thing that has me leaning towards Hemrit is the 'Lynch All Vanillas' rule of thumb. I've seen it argued over (and have probably been on both sides), but basically, we are likely to hit a townie anyway, and people who claim under pressure don't exactly claim scum.
Beyond that, I want to try to pin down what I expect to learn from anyone's lynch.-
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JordanA24 Mafia Scum
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You seemed to instigate he was scum, and you said it was 100% neccessary to lynch him, so I'm hoping you thought he was scum, and wasn't just voting him because he was refusing to play, because a town could just as easily do this, and you would just be helping the scum to an easy quickmis-lynch.Paradoxombie wrote:
I didn't say he was scum, in fact I later said it was probably more likely he was town. I guess it's not too important but I might as well set the record straight.JordanA24 wrote:
This seems rather too sure that Nelly is scum to me, I agree that Nelly's play is very scummy, but outright stating that he's scum doesn't seem right to me, it could easily be a null tell on it's own (It's a common newbie mistake, I fell foul of it once as well)Paradox wrote:Well I've never lynched a mafia on day one. =(
Vote:Nelly632
Unfortunately(unless he's mafia), he's forced our hand. It's 100% necessary to lynch someone who doesn't play.
that puts him at -3 I believe
I accept your explaination for the incorrect vote count. But when I'm typing up a post, "I believe" is just another way of saying "He is" to me, regardless of the fact that they have a slightly different meaning if you're going to be pedantic about it. But since the vote count now seems like a genuine mistake, it's a bit of a moot point now.[/quote]Paradox wrote:
Well Vollkan later pointed out that it's 6 to lynch instead of 7 and someone voted 1 minute before I posted and that might've been the cause. And saying "I believe" instead of "He is" may not change the scumminess of my mistake, but there's still a pretty big ****ing difference in the meaning between them.JordanA24 wrote:
How could you have not realised that he was near a lynch when votes for him were flying in left, right & centre? And the way you try and dismiss it with crap reasoning doesn't help it either, you made a "casual and incomplete count", if you're taking the trouble to count the votes in the first place, I really doubt it'd be casual. And how does saying "I believe" rather than "He is" make any difference?Paradox wrote:Yes. I didn't realize he was near a lynch so I made casual and incomplete count. My fault entirely. But take notice that I said, "I believe." It's important to account for human error.
This is a pretty bad slip, but I still think the town-tell that Oman said he'd prefer a Paradox vig over anyone else outweighs the scumtell you've pointed out there.curiouskarmadog wrote:Whoa what?
This was biggest slip up so far. “soParadoxombie wrote:
Elias_the_thief wrote:
That means a day with no discussion, which is very anti town.
that's too bad, if we're gonna have to lynch some random guy inevitably, why not make it sooner so you can get on with hunting?can get on with hunting”? ummm, aren’tyousuppose to be hunting scum? Why are you not hunting scum? Not only do you state you want the day to end sooner, your justification to Elias is so “you can get on with hunting:”we
HUGE SCUM SLIP UP HERE!
Good post, I agree 100% with this.vollkan wrote:
Simple, actually.But you ignore my primary argument that if players are always allowed to live simply because they do nothing is pretty stupid. I still pose the question: What keeps scum from acting that way and getting a free ride? I f you want to argue circumstances, then whatever, but just letting people get away with it is inevitably game breaking once scum see the potential.
Let's imagine two hypothetical lurky non-contributors named A and B.
A = Vanilla townie who is lurking and non-contributing due to inexperience and/or boredom and/or juvenile humour attempt.
B = Scum who is lurking and acting as a non-contrubutor as a conscious tactic of avoiding a lynch.
I would be prepared to bet that Person A tires of the stupidity (or learns how to play in the case of a newbie) A LOT faster than person B. Anybody who fits A's profile (any of the possibilities) is clearly not going to have the committment this game requires and, thus, will eventually tire of the stupidity and become a plain lurker and then get replaced out.
Anybody who maintains such a persona for an extended time is, in all likelihood, scum.
Thus, as a scum strategy, it would have no point. It might let a scum live one day or so, but in the end it will come crashing down upon them.
Hence, I unequivocally disagree with Para that it is good to lynch such people early on. If they are a lurking scum, they will eventually and rightly come under suspicion for maintaining it for a long time.
Don't give me an argument about such a person posing a risk in LYLO, because in all likelihood I think that a genuine stupid player would, in this game, have given up already. If, even by this stage, someone had maintained such an attitude you might be well advised to suspect them, but at the point of time when Para did so, it is utterly anti-town.Please delete my comment from your sig...such an awful joke- Battle Mage
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Elias_the_thief He/HimNot Statistically SignificantHe/Him
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The one thing I can say about para is this theoryisconsistent with that other game. However, the fact that he wanted to lynch them quickly and didnt care about lost conversation is too big of a tell for me. In that other game, he waited a LONG time before he voted to lynch the noncontributor, while in this, the vote came by page 4 or 5, i think.I play the games rul gud.-
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Elias_the_thief He/HimNot Statistically SignificantHe/Him
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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there is no "seems" to it..I am pushing hard..I think he is scum...wouldnt you push hard if you thought someone is scum?..Why are you FOSing me...we do not officially know Para's alignment yet..will you still FoS me if he turns out scum?gorckat wrote:ckd seems to be pushing xombie pretty hard. Makes a big show of leading the town, too.
FOS: ckdNO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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why is that? If I was Oman and I was trying to find a quick fix to get some town cred I would have fingered someone I knew was scum. Lets say Vollkan vigged Para (on Oman's insistance) instead and he turned out scum..wouldnt that have bought some Oman some cred?JordanA24 wrote:
This is a pretty bad slip, but I still think the town-tell that Oman said he'd prefer a Paradox vig over anyone else outweighs the scumtell you've pointed out there.NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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JordanA24 Mafia Scum
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Oman might have thought that we would think that he might have simply sacrificed one of his own to gain town cred. I'd imagine he would have gained some town cred, but not nearly enough to make him consider decreasing his chances of winning by that much.curiouskarmadog wrote:
why is that? If I was Oman and I was trying to find a quick fix to get some town cred I would have fingered someone I knew was scum. Lets say Vollkan vigged Para (on Oman's insistance) instead and he turned out scum..wouldnt that have bought some Oman some cred?JordanA24 wrote:
This is a pretty bad slip, but I still think the town-tell that Oman said he'd prefer a Paradox vig over anyone else outweighs the scumtell you've pointed out there.Please delete my comment from your sig...such an awful joke- Battle Mage
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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So we dont really know why Oman picked who he did...that (in my mind) does not out weigh Para's scummy play.JordanA24 wrote:
Oman might have thought that we would think that he might have simply sacrificed one of his own to gain town cred. I'd imagine he would have gained some town cred, but not nearly enough to make him consider decreasing his chances of winning by that much.curiouskarmadog wrote:
why is that? If I was Oman and I was trying to find a quick fix to get some town cred I would have fingered someone I knew was scum. Lets say Vollkan vigged Para (on Oman's insistance) instead and he turned out scum..wouldnt that have bought some Oman some cred?JordanA24 wrote:
This is a pretty bad slip, but I still think the town-tell that Oman said he'd prefer a Paradox vig over anyone else outweighs the scumtell you've pointed out there.NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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These are a few of your statements that get my attention as being leading:
TOWN: please go back and read the actual quote placing…you will see para is trying anything to deflect suspicion on himself!
By themselves, they are very "appealy" to something (authority, perhaps- I forget all the various sorts of appeals).TOWN this is our scum....
Early on, many of your posts were non-commital- calling out lurkers, asking others opinions before giving your own, vote counts. "Helpful" things. Plus your reaction to xombie's slip (I'm not sure of whether it is as big a deal as you make it).
They feel like noob scum to me. Re-reading xombie, Hermit, ckd, Nelly, Oman, Sir Tornado...I'm not convinced that xombie is the lynch for today. Certainly not the way you are.
I'm still poking at Sir Tornado with my vote, atm. I'll be checking in later to see what's what.-
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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gorckat wrote:These are a few of your statements that get my attention as being leading:
TOWN: please go back and read the actual quote placing…you will see para is trying anything to deflect suspicion on himself!
By themselves, they are very "appealy" to something (authority, perhaps- I forget all the various sorts of appeals).TOWN this is our scum....
Early on, many of your posts were non-commital- calling out lurkers, asking others opinions before giving your own, vote counts. "Helpful" things. Plus your reaction to xombie's slip (I'm not sure of whether it is as big a deal as you make it).
They feel like noob scum to me. Re-reading xombie, Hermit, ckd, Nelly, Oman, Sir Tornado...I'm not convinced that xombie is the lynch for today. Certainly not the way you are.
I'm still poking at Sir Tornado with my vote, atm. I'll be checking in later to see what's what.
I am not arguing with you on the point..I am pushing...but you still didnt answer the question, am I still FoSed if Para comes up scum?NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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JordanA24 Mafia Scum
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I'm still 95% certain he'd pick a townie first.curiouskarmadog wrote:
So we dont really know why Oman picked who he did...that (in my mind) does not out weigh Para's scummy play.JordanA24 wrote:
Oman might have thought that we would think that he might have simply sacrificed one of his own to gain town cred. I'd imagine he would have gained some town cred, but not nearly enough to make him consider decreasing his chances of winning by that much.curiouskarmadog wrote:
why is that? If I was Oman and I was trying to find a quick fix to get some town cred I would have fingered someone I knew was scum. Lets say Vollkan vigged Para (on Oman's insistance) instead and he turned out scum..wouldnt that have bought some Oman some cred?JordanA24 wrote:
This is a pretty bad slip, but I still think the town-tell that Oman said he'd prefer a Paradox vig over anyone else outweighs the scumtell you've pointed out there.Please delete my comment from your sig...such an awful joke- Battle Mage
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