California Trilogy - Dantès in Fresno (Game Over!)

[Thesp]

I am here. Here am I.

[Thesp]

Wow, we've started. With a bang.

I don't like Oman's early vote on Skruffs - it feels off to me.

I also think there is some merit in talking about which characters could be apart of this game, if nothing else to be an ice breaker.

I disagree on so many levels, it hurts my head. What's your experience with mafia/werewolf?

For the moment, I am going to go with an Oman vote. I'm not too fond of his Skruffs vote.

Looks like VitaminR beat me to it.

Oman, iocaine powder doesn't have a smell.

Mod, I assume that the wording for Rule 5 means that no "Bah" posts are allowed?

Please see the Post Content section of the rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

The wording of rule 5 means that no "Bah" posts are allowed, correct. This is now explicitly stated. - Mod

I find it very interesting that Zindie felt a need for clarification on this point. That question makes me very uneasy. Quite like Zindy is looking for a way to seem more townlike. It's completely a hunch, but it's definately good enough for a D1 initial vote.

Clarification on a "bah" post to look more townie? I really, really don't see it - this feels contrived/opposite of sensical.

MoS's odd diceroll list is odd. I am unsure, at this time, if it is scummy.

MoS insists on making his first votes random and insignificant.

I don't really understand why people are utilizing the cordecet (sp?) voting so quickly. There really isn't a reason to spew a whole list of votes right off the bat.

I'm uncertain as to why you think suspicions must be more masked at this point. (I see jeep has beaten me to this point by virtue of having posted 40+ hours before me.)

Scruffs acted this same exact way to me in a recently completed game. He continually attacked me for absolutely no reason, giving unsound logic and really awful points. Even though the town KNEW all of his points were awful and his logic lacking, I continued, out of a unrequited need, to respond to him. How did it end? Me, getting lynched, as an innocent.

The fact that I'm appearing in so many lists right now is reminicent of that game. It's angering me greatly.

I'm not sure this analogy can hold, and this "anger" feels contrived as well.

If you aren't the first on any list, why do you care so much? You have one vote. In a game this huge that is nothing. You weren't on my radar before, but you sure are now.

Note to self: review later.

(Also, note that I have not used bold tags.) =P

Foolinc did a nice information post that didnt really contain any information. Scum seem to do this to look like they are contributing when in reality they are just typing words.

Do you think the manner in which he did it is more likely to come from scum or town?

(Seriously, MOS, why not just say it's random, rather than that whole easily-fakeable demo??? There is no level on which I get that, and it even seems a slight "honestly, guys, I'm honest!" move, you know?)

What incentive would scum have to fake random rolls or votes?

I don't understand why any pro-town role would not use a list. The only reason for not using a list is because you are scum and haven't had time to work out with your scum buddies what is the right way to use it to your advantage.

While I agree that everyone

ought

to use such a list, I don't think it follows that all pro-town players

will

use a list, which is what it seems you're implying here.

Looks like I was beaten by page 6, also.

I still like my Skruffs vote(and not just because he's the top vote-getter).

Why do I not believe you?

I like DP and xyzzy. I don't like LmL or Oman. I like the jeep hate. I find the Skruffs wagon uninteresting.

Vote: LoudmouthLee

, Oman, jeep, logicticus, Cogito Ergo Sum, PlaysWithSquirrels.

[Thesp]

(sigh)

@Thesp - I voiced my opinion on Zin's opening post and MoS's opening post. I want to know WHY you find the Scruffs wagon uninteresting. Scruffs and I have a history, as it seems, and it's not a positive one. His logic is appaling, and I take serious umbrage with the fact that you find my anger to be "manufactured."

I have merely pointed out what I have found interesting and scummy thus far. God. I feel like if I would just shut my mouth and let people post scummy type things, I would be much better off.

Let's look at the 4 people who have their votes on me:

Adele - Rationale: Disagrees with my stance on random voting.
Scruffs - Rationale: OMGUS coupled with "misrepresentations that are not misrepresentations".
Zinadras - Radionale: Modified OMGUS (as I found his Bah opening post to be slightly scummy, and it was good as an opening post)

and you, Thesp.

God. I'm frustrated.

I've seen your manufactured anger before, it resonates with what I'm seeing right now. If you take serious umbrage at someone doubting your veracity in a game where players are actively trying to discern which players are being deceptive, perhaps this game is not for you, or stepping back for a deep breath would be worthwhile.

[Thesp]

Have you looked at C&H? Glork and Thok said the same thing there (manufactured anger), and a lot of it stemmed from Scruffs.

What is C&H? Do you think your anger here stems from Skruffs? (I'm really not seeing the connection, aside from the fact you were voting for Skruffs.)

[Thesp]

Scum can act town for short periods of time, but in the end, they want mislynches.

From a theory standpoint, I think this is misleading.

His later note on Jeep is very interesting and goes against my collected data on him. As well as everyone else's. I like how he took a break, 'dug' at jeep, got accolades for it, adn then went back to me. Now people are saying "Well look what he did to jeep" (even if it was misguided), which by default makes it look like he was doing the same thing to me. He wasn't. I don't remember him 'digging' when he put the seventh vote on me, and I don't remember him 'digging' when he said that if I was scum one person would look bad and if I was town another would look bad.

Do you think he's distancing from Jeep?

I still don't see this as likely to happen at all, but I will answer you. It provides all the obvious information, eg. that the person was town, that Jeep wanted to lynch them as a 3rd/6th choice, and obviously others must have had him/her listed for a lynch as well. Now I ask to you, how much difference does it make if Jeep invents a logical sounding reason for all of those he has listed, to appease you? There are a thousand reasons he could make up, and people who have been playing this game a while are most likely going to be convincing. I am not saying that giving reasons never helps, I am saying

don't stifle people from voting by pretending that it's a rule that votes must be accompanied by a reason

. Because if I am still alive later in the game and re-reading over day 1 trying to find the scum, I will be looking at the votes first, the reasons second.

Talitha wins this thread forever. Her winningness cannot be surpassed.

I'd say that anylynch is better then no lynch, the game was made for the mechanics of lynching each day and NK each day.

Would you support an Oman lynch over a No Lynch?

Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote scum 3 so that anyone else voting scum 3 would be attacked.
Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote townie 3 so that they could unvote and defend the townie upon the third vote so, should that that townie ever die, they'll be considered likely GGs be association.

And so on.

Do you think either of the scenarios you've presented here have potentially obtained?

I like how LML is being meta'd because 'he's always loud and likes to stir things up' but i am being voted for the exact same thing, and I'm not doing it by attacking people based on reasons that were half thought out or misread or just not understood at all. I will have to make a note to play much, much sloppier in the future.

This feels

weird

.

Anyone who DISCOURAGES the use of a list is scummy. That is clear from my post that you quoted, right? People NOT using a list, doesn't make them scummy. It's only if they discourage the use of a list.

Can a person express that they themselves don't want to use a list without discouraging the use of a list? (READING EDIT: Zindaras seems to be asking this question, too.)

Again, I don't think Skruffs is doing anything out the ordinary than what he does in just about every game he plays. It would seem he is getting attacked without differing from his normal play style whereas others such as LmL are seen as easier to understand because they are not doing anything out of how they would normally play.

What do you think of other players?

Yes MoS,

I'm not saying your scum because of making a random vote.

I am saying you are scum because of the effort you've taken to make sure that your vote is seen as completely random.

Why go to that effort unless you have something to hide?
Heck if you had just voted alphabetically it would've taken much less effort, been about as random, and had about the same impact on the game in terms of voting(which is to say pretty much none at all since random votes are kinda worthless and I doubt we'll move into the stage where Condorcet actually plays out on day one)

Have you known MoS to be helpful at the beginning of the game?

Are you trying to get into his good graces with a generic contentless message like

"yay thesp"?

There's probably lots more of this fluffy stuff lying around that I haven't attacked people on, but this really jumped out at me when I was reading the last post.

Stop trying to discourage people from complimenting me. >:-|

=P

Skruffs, it is not I who is focusing on my random vote. It is the many other players who think there is something to be garnered from analyzing it and choose to waste our time by distracting the town from actually chasing scum.

Why did you do it in the first place? Did you think it would be helpful?

Also, /in before mith fixes LmL's tags.

Happy with my vote. I have moved from "not wanting a Skruffs lynch" to "not caring overly much if Skruffs is lynched, though I think there are better choices out there".

[Thesp]

@Thesp, I know he's usually not helpful, but he's also usually doesn't put in effort as well. It's the effort that I'm attacking him for.

I guess I'm not seeing this as terribly unusual. I think it's bad play, but this seems like typical MoS opening - I think he's prone to putting token effort into things which don't tend to get anywhere. (On that note - how much effort does it take to do the random list? 5 minutes, if that?)

Anyone who DISCOURAGES the use of a list is scummy.

Can a person express that they themselves don't want to use a list without discouraging the use of a list?

I'm certain that it's possible. Something like:
"Only XYZ seems to stand out, so I don't want to make a list beyond that yet. It's certainly a good idea to take advantage of the list and before the deadline, I'll have my list ready.

This is an awfully high standard you're setting here, which presumes an inherent helpfulness in a Condorcet list which not all players seem eager to do.

Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote scum 3 so that anyone else voting scum 3 would be attacked.
Scum 1 and scum 2 could arrange before the game to "random" vote townie 3 so that they could unvote and defend the townie upon the third vote so, should that that townie ever die, they'll be considered likely GGs be association.

And so on.

Do you think either of the scenarios you've presented here have potentially obtained?

I don't undestand that sentence, I'm afraid; If you're asking if I'm saying one of them is the case here, the answer's "I don't think so". If you're asking if I think they are really possible plays in games generally, then yes, absolutely.

I was asking the former. What would be the possible purpose of MoS-scum

in this instance

to fake random voting? Your answer seems to be, "I don't know, but it looks scummy." I need a higher standard than that, particularly from you.

Thesp - Was DP distancing from jeep? No, I don't think that kind of relationship can be determined from that. I think he was using a mistake from jeep to strengthen town's opinion of him so that when he swung back towards me, more people would follow.

This theory requires a certain amount of precognition on DP's part and Skruffs-centrism that seems unhealthy.

Still very happy with my vote on LmL.

[Thesp]

I am deeply saddened by the departure of two such awesome players from our game.

However I am excited to be joined on the bandwagon of the evil scumilicious cubs by Talitha.

I greatly encourage others to join as well!

Also Skruffs, the reason I didn't comment on DP's comment is because I don't really have any way of commenting on it since I can't really know whether he has a read on me or not. If I had said something like "you're lying! you have a read on me!" who would take me seriously? Heck what would his motive of not disclosing what his read on me be even?

As much as I enjoy the cubs bandwagon, I'd rather see LmL swing.

[Thesp]

Just a heads-up - I will likely have difficulty posting tomorrow, as my sister-in-law will be giving birth - I'll be an uncle again.

Still want LmL to swing.

[Thesp]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but someone who wants clarification on a "Bah" post is someone who wants the town to ultimately think that they will be nightkilled, and will be "in need" of a Bah! Post. I don't know if that makes sense, but to me, anyone who asks for clarification of rules in thread (IE: Mod, I need clarification of my role) is generally scum. I have used this scumtell in scumchat numerous times, and I feel it's pertinent.

This is absurd. It doesn't come to mind to conclude that someone thinks they'll be nightkilled if they're asking about a "Bah!" post, and therefore

more

absurd that such a post would be faking an impression that doesn't come to mind. I think you're making it up.

Instead, I feel that MoS "wanted us to definately know" his vote was random. It looked forced. Which, of course, was something you accuse me of later.

What felt forced, that he wanted it to look random, or the random vote in the first place? Also, I'm not sure what that last sentence is doing there - are you adding credence to my concern, or mocking your own (re: "looking forced")?

If someone misattributed you to being "misrepresentful", you would be ALL over them too. Stop playing the holier than thou card.

I'm uncertain how you have such divination powers. ("

You

would have acted like

Z

" arguments are always very problematic - and troublesome.)

I am choosing to try to play the calm, cool and collected card right now rather than the guns-a-blazing typical LmL style.

Have you ever known me to be NOT overaggressive?

I'm terribly confused here. Can you tell me if you're being calm, cool and collected, or being overaggressive?

I don't really know what you mean here. Obviously I can't just not post since we have a posting requirement. I do not see how am I "hiding" or could hide even if I wanted to. This post just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If you had to post at least

X

amount by virtue of being in the game, yet wanted to contribute as little a trail as possible, how much would you contribute? You seem to be contributing

X

.

As much as I like where your vote is, I'm bothered by the things everyone else seems to be correctly noting - the "lurking in plain sight".

Until someone decides to do a PBPA or post count, then he's screwed.
Based on the chances of that happening, I call BS.

Lurking in any form is a non-viable strategy for this game.

Does that mean scum are unlikely to attempt it anyway?

Why does day end in four days? I would think that while a deadline is useful, making everyone post every other day leads to a wealth of information. There are five or six players who have just replaced in who should have a chance to get their opinions out, as well, before the day is snubbed short.

I think we're closely approaching the point of diminishing returns, and am pretty happy the deadline is coming around. Somebody's gotta die.

I don't like the divestment of responsibility, I don't like the fact that it's people pretending to contribute and actually contributing nothing to discussion (apart from this, but that's sooo not the point).
Why might MoS have faked it? I don't know and I don't care. I just think it's worth noting that it could be faked for nefarious purposes. The fact of its potential is the issue, not the likelihood of it. That was not my accusation.

If I understand correctly, you're saying what he's doing could be done by scum for something helpful for scum, though you're not certain how it might help scum, nor are you really certain that scum are more likely to do it. It seems you presented the case much more strongly at first.

LML has been loud and aggressive, but, well, he always is.

Do you think this is why he's being voted?

I actually like what Skruffs has said about DP re: 2 families. A lot. I'm back to wanting to keep Skruffs around.

Still happy with my vote, I'll try to do a new Condorcet in the next day or two.

[Thesp]

What felt forced, that he wanted it to look random, or the random vote in the first place? Also, I'm not sure what that last sentence is doing there - are you adding credence to my concern, or mocking your own (re: "looking forced")?

You said that my anger was forced. I said MoS's post was forced.

I'm not sure you've answered the question, but merely restated what transpired.

If I didn't believe it, why would I say it?

I know the answer to this one.

I get angry (need proof?) when I get bandwagoned / mislynched / etc. as pro-town.

You get the same way when you're bandwagoned as scum. Why add the "as pro-town" in there? I think this is an instance of he "doth protest too much", where you're trying to plant in people's heads that you are pro-town (which is the basis for your criticism of Zindaras).

I would love for you to MAKE A CASE on me, Thesp. THERE IS NOTHING.

You disagreeing with the existence of a case against you =/= Non-existence of a case against you. In fact, that you are arguing against the "case against you" (if we are to call it that) implies that there

is

one, you just don't agree with its quality.

Does anyone else get a "You got nothin' on me, coppers!" sort of sneer from this? (Say the quote with an Al Capone voice and you'll understand what I'm hearing.)

Happy with my vote.

[Thesp]

Largely. It seems to me that the fact that LML was vocal about what he saw as scummy is mostly what led to this position. He just picked out a few things and voted people for them. I don't see it.

There have been other people who have been vocal about what they thought were scummy, yet have not attracted the same sort of attention LmL has. Do you think this is hypocritical of those who have given attention to LmL over these others, or is there something distinctive about what LmL has said (or perhaps how he said it) that has garnered such attention? (Or something else I'm not seeing?)

[Thesp]

Adele,

So you are voting for DP because he seems to have slipped up indicting that there are two families. So my question is, do you believe that DP has some sort of role that gives him information that there are 2 families?

Typically in a 2 family game, the families are ignorant of each other. Its not until they see a death of the other family that they realize they are not alone.

I think I know the answer to this, but I want to hear what Adele has to say.

[Thesp]

So not only our you defending Skruffs, but you are voting for LML for doing the same thing Skruffs is, being himself.

After looking at your posts again, you look even scummier since you defend Skruffs for being Skruffs, but attacking LML because he was beening his overagressive self.

To suggest that LoudmouthLee is being voted for "being himself" is a gross oversimplification.

[Thesp]

To suggest that LoudmouthLee is being voted for "being himself" is a gross oversimplification.

No. It's not. There still hasn't even been a remotely decent case on me. So far, you're voting me because:

-You dont agree with the scumtell I cited (and, while I'm at it, Thesp, do you think Zin's playing a pro-town game?)

-You think that my anger at Scruffs is manufactured.

-You think I'm being too aggressive.

(nods) You have one kickass case.

I suspect we've entered the slapfight phase of the argument, where we go, "Yes it is"/"No it isn't"/"Yes it is"/"No it isn't". I'm a little uncertain as to where to go after that.

[Thesp]

I just have a fleeting moment right now - I'm going to try and take some time out from lunch to post, or I'll get in right at the deadline. I'm going to unvote, as I see a claim here that appears to be significant, and I need a quick re-read from my last post to do this right. I'll get it in before the deadline, which is 6pm Central US, right?

Unvote

.

[Thesp]

I have not read anything since Day started. I, do, however, need to post 25 or more words to satisfy the mod. So I'm going to say that I'll get you guys a post tomorrow, as I was largely busy today.

The same thing goes for me - I'm wiped out right now (I've been sick for half the week), and will post more in the morning. Off the top of my head, the LmL vote looks like lunacy, but I'll go back and look at it in the morning.

[Thesp]

That is particularly damning for MGM. He is the only voter on Cubsfan who had a chance AFTER Mith posted duel results to change their vote FROM cubsfan to someone else.

Cubsfan was obv. protown (as I do not believe that that type of power would every be attributed to scum). Yet, you just asked him WHY he challenged me and you DID NOT chnage your vote.

I don't associate Mgm with good play. (I'm sorry to say that, Mgm.) I don't think he's a good lynch.

Anyways, Skruffs are we really to believe you got roleblocked, or are you just scum seeing how far you can yank us along on your RC.

This feels really weird.

Did you get some kind of message that your action was blocked?

This question bothers me.

Also, FOS: Cogito Ergo Sum.

Hmm, looks like Glork/Gaspar beats me to most of the points/thoughts I'm making here.

Except Cubs was Kirk Kerkorian and didn't actually kill anyone. There's no reason to assume he was telling the truth or actually had any functional ability.

It appears he had some sort of ability to at least force the mod to do a duel sequence, which was either quickly crafted or already prepared for such an occasion.

I'm actually surprised BM died last night, as he wasn't really confirmable.... a rolecop is much more likely to be scum than town.

This feels weird, too.

vote:LML MGM, VitR, Logictus, Talitha

I really, really dislike this vote.

i believe this argument between IH & LmL is between two townies... i also believe that since xyzzy is dead, Mgm is the correct play for today...

I'm curious - why?

I also wonder what happens if Cubs did understand his role, but LML was neither town nor scum?

Are there any non-anti-town roles that are worth lynching?

[Thesp]

@Talitha
not so much confidence as it is that's the feeling i got reading the exchange... i also am having a hard time getting reads on people, including you...

This feels.......

threatening

.

For those who dont want to play the game, the first letters (minus the s and confirm) spell:

Eugenie Townie.

This blows holes in my theory. Hrm.

FOS: Mgm.

I don't like how Logictus deciphered the posts in around 8 minutes.

Why?

The response to CES's "woo, daykill!" post has been interesting. A select handful of people have pointed out that they're not particularly fond of it, but nobody's actually made a move on CES. I almost get the feeling that scums are waiting to see if anything will actually come of it.

Your defense of CES is noted.

I will try to get a Condorcet up tonight.

The CES comment is something I can see him do as town quite easily. Null tell, in my opinion.

What do you think of CES on the whole?

[Thesp]

This blows holes in my theory.

Your theory? Please elucidate.

I was halfway through typing my response, when I realized I might be giving too much away with it. Let it suffice to say, I had a theory which the conclusion included Mgm as unlikely to be scum. Furthermore, my theory is now mutually exclusive with the current game state.

[Thesp]

What's holding you back from clarifying your theory (and the recent change) so we can all discuss it?

That I might be giving too much away with it. I probably shouldn't have said anything about it in the first place. Sorry.

[Thesp]

Thesp, I can't say I'm surprised by your response, but I'm counting on you to share your theory the moment the disadvantages disappear/disadvantage disappears. (If you're still alive at that point, that is.)

Note to self during eventual re-read: Do this, if able.

I'd rather keep my secret word under my hat until I've heard from Tall yand until I've heard some opinions from others on whether it's a good idea to share it.

I'm of the opinion that sharing it is a Bad Idea.

[Thesp]

RE:Logictus figuring out the claim.

I don't like how Logictus figured out MGM's claim 8 minutes after he posted.

First of all, it seems as if he's expecting it.

Second of all, he deduces the name, and has time to search wikipedia with the exact rolename after using the filter, and correctly deduces that MGM's name is Eugenie.

Now, perhaps I'm a little slower than that, but to read MGM's post (almost exclusively), ignore all other posts, look at his posts in the filter, and find the correct name on wikipedia, with their posts 8 minutes apart is just not innocent to me.

I just tried to do this. It took me four minutes. (Sort posts by user, see "EUGENIETOWNIEBLAHBLAHBLAH", check the wikipedia under Count of Monte Cristo, look at the character section, there's a Eugenie there.) I'm not sure where you're going from this, unless you tried to do it by going page by page by page, with "All Users" filter on.

[Thesp]

i also believe that since xyzzy is dead, Mgm is the correct play for today...

I don't know that I got the proper answer to this. What about xyzzy's death makes Mgm the correct play?

Skruffs: his comment (626) that he was blocked suggest "town" to me. This is a dangerous gambit to try to pull as scum, because if there is no role blocker (or if there is one that denies the action) he's screwed.

While I agree he's slightly more likely to be town (as scum don't do this

often

), it's not a gambit if he

is

a mafia roleblocker. (I've seen this used to great effect by someone who later claimed cop in a game - it even gave him one less investigation to fake.)

I find foolinc to be relatively uninteresting. I do enjoy the Adele hate.

Vote: IH

, Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Dani Banani, [Gaspar, PookyTheMagicalBear, Tamuz, Zindaras], [Dragon Phoenix, foolinc, logicticus, Mgm, Skruffs, Talitha], [LoudmouthLee, VitaminR], No Lynch, Thesp

[Thesp]

Skruffs: his comment (626) that he was blocked suggest "town" to me. This is a dangerous gambit to try to pull as scum, because if there is no role blocker (or if there is one that denies the action) he's screwed.

While I agree he's slightly more likely to be town (as scum don't do this

often

), it's not a gambit if he

is

a mafia roleblocker. (I've seen this used to great effect by someone who later claimed cop in a game - it even gave him one less investigation to fake.)

Ummm... I think this would only work if Skruffs is mafia and the mafia has a role blocker (not Skruffs) - otherwise eventually Skruffs will find it hard to explain why no-one can claim role blocker. Still a very dangerous gambit, because the moment a mafia role blocker dies, Skruffs hangs.

In the game I'm thinking of, a player was presumed accurate because he claimed to be roleblocked N1, and later a mafia roleblocker was confirmed (by being killed). In fact, the mafia blocked

no one

to set up that very claim. It's not so much a gambit as a planned possibility. I don't see how Skruffs would hang if a mafia roleblocker died, and in fact if no one claimed roleblocker if needed, it would be a

more

compelling argument that he was actually blocked (especially if later people claim to have been blocked on subsequent nights). Scum tend to not like wasting their abilities.

[Thesp]

just now, I actually googled for the term dochunting

FOS: Dragon Phoenix

for searching for how to hunt doctors. >:-|

Thesp: Could you expand on why you are enjoying the Adele hate?

Sure. I think it's right.

I'm also beginning to suspect that Dani Banani was asking about the secret word like he was to test the waters and see if

everyone

had a secret word. I think he was more worried about

his own

than Mgm's. I sure wouldn't mind seeing him swing, either. Heck, can we lynch four people today? We might be able to win today, and not worry about silly nightactions.

[Thesp]

I will also concede that Dani's mentioning of the Secret Words is a bit odd, but I maintain that the rest of his play seems pretty reasonable.

I maintain you're wrong.

[Thesp]

*pats Thesp's head condescendingly*

I suppose PJ would have it best here - *bites*



Re: DB, Threatening Talitha, stays away from taking stances, takes the easy bandwagons, tries to see about secret words in a way that suggests he's trying to find out more than Mgm's secret word - that's what seems to be pretty odd to me. I'm curious as to what about his play seems "reasonable" to you.

[Thesp]

I'm also beginning to suspect that Dani Banani was asking about the secret word like he was to test the waters and see if everyone had a secret word. I think he was more worried about his own than Mgm's. I sure wouldn't mind seeing him swing, either. Heck, can we lynch four people today? We might be able to win today, and not worry about silly nightactions.

He obviously had a secret word. It's quite hard to be the first to ask about them if you don't know they exist...

Yes, I agree. I think he was worried that

only scum had them

, and was trying to test the waters in a way that could be explained away, should it turn out that town didn't have them.

NBA Finals Champs 2008 will be:

Dallas Mavericks.

I sure hope so. I'm still devastated after last season.

[Thesp]

Nightkill discussion is inherently WIFOM. Drawing conclusions from it is very much scummy.

Is nightkill discussion inherently not useful?

I agree with Lee that Mgm's post regarding the doc is rather scummy and odd, but I don't think it's as blatant as Lee would like us to think.

Do you think LmL has ulterior motives in pushing the Mgm wagon?

[Thesp]

Is nightkill discussion inherently not useful?

My opinion is that, barring extreme cases (like Mafia 60, as you were bound to bring up that one), nightkill discussion is useless or almost useless. There are some cases where it becomes more useful, but they usually involve doc claims and other such powerful claims, claims that would be expected to die the next night. And even then, it's a weak line of discussion. The argument "X died. X was suspicious of Y, so Y must be his buddy!" is an extroardinarily weak argument, and I find it very scummy.

It's been my experience that scum tend to kill people they think are power roles and/or beginning to be suspicious of them. In fact, WIFOM kills tend to

backfire

(e.g. game I might have been able to win at Thespival had I killed MeMe instead of AmeliaSlay), and scum tend to be far more straightforward with their approach. What in your experience suggests that scum are more likely to draw conclusions from analyzed discussion of nightkills? (I also strongly disagree that nightkill discussion is

inherently

WIFOM, though it certainly can be.)

[Thesp]

I think any Townie would recognize the WIFOM in "The scum killed X. X was suspicious of Y, so Y must be scum" (buddy was a wrong pick of words in that particular post). Therefore, I don't think they would make the argument to begin with.

I don't think the argument concludes, "Y must be scum", it usually goes "Y

might be

scum", and the WIFOM is debatable. If there's demonstrable evidence to suggest that the nightkill is not prompted by powerrole hunting, it's perfectly reasonable to consider why the person killed was killed,

since it can give clues as to who the scum are

. Though the reliability of it is far from certain, I'm not sure why you would want to deny that tool, nor am I convinced of your argument re: scumminess of those who make the arguments.

[Thesp]

@Thesp,
i already gave my reasoning for bringing up the secret word... Mgm hit it right on the head when he said

He obviously had a secret word. It's quite hard to be the first to ask about them if you don't know they exist...

your attacks on me feel a little strained, almost like you're looking for a reason to make me look suspicious... i wouldn't be surprised if you're a lyncher w/ me as a target...

That's the thing - I think you're lying about your reasoning for bringing up the secret word. I agree I think you have a secret word. Was I unclear on that point? Asking

in the way you did

makes a heck of a lot of sense if you're scum with a secret word, and afraid that other people might not have one - testing the waters to see what comes up.

I believe, although WIFOM, looking at kills presents a wonderful way to generate suspicions.

So if I understand correctly, you agree with me that examining who was killed can be cautiously useful data?

In other news, IH still needs to die.

[Thesp]

So because the evidence might lead you astray, you should just discard it outright?

Nightkill analysis isn't the most useful line of inquiry, but I certainly wouldn't call it useless. Whenever I'm scum, I certainly do prefer to kill people who are suspicious of me, 'cause the town totally lets me get away with it and because it isn't all that easy to interpret.

QFT.

That's the thing - I think you're lying about your reasoning for bringing up the secret word. I agree I think you have a secret word. Was I unclear on that point? Asking

in the way you did

makes a heck of a lot of sense if you're scum with a secret word, and afraid that other people might not have one - testing the waters to see what comes up.

If that's true, why test the waters? Keeping his mouth shut would be by far the safer option if he didn't know it was safe to talk about it. What if scum was the only one with secret words? Asking about it would make it suicide.

I can imagine some outs he'd have by asking the question, and I would suspect there'd be natural curiosity. I think he was worried about scum being the only ones with secret words - if everyone looked at him quizzically, it'd be easy to fabricate a reason he knows about secret words(for instance, having a role which has knowledge of scum having secret words - after all, DB didn't say

he

had a secret word when he first asked about it). It makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.

[Thesp]

Work is beating my head in right now. It will likely be tomorrow before I am able to get a serious post in. Thanks, sorry.

[Thesp]

In fact, I would posit that the first person to bring up Secret Words would be more likely town, since they would theoretically be willing to discuss it with ZERO reservations about it getting them in trouble.

I disagree with you so very, very much.

the first time, Thesp was the lyncher w/ me as the target, the 2nd time, Talitha was the lyncher w/ me as a target

I don't ever remember a game where I was lyncher with you as the target. I remember a game where I was the lyncher and you

thought

the whole game you were the target, but MoS was the target in that game.

Am I the only one who notices that foolinc is calling it incorrectly a PASSWORD repeatedly? I'm even more happy now with my vote.

I think this is worth noting. Actually, I think it may be

more

notable that logicticus adopts his wording.

So, I like how you add in still. When had you expressed abject suspicion about me before?

I thought I had voted you previously, had I not? I think you're the most likely to be scum - the discussion about nightkills was distracting from that.

I see several people saying they're getting a pro-town view from IH. I'm getting quite the

opposite

, and don't see where that's coming from. At all.

I'm liking MBL more than his predecessor, and there are several I'd rather see lynched ahead of him now.

Vote: IH

, Dani Banani, Cogito Ergo Sum, logicticus, MrBuddyLee, foolinc, [Gaspar, Tamuz, Zindaras], [Dragon Phoenix, Mgm, Skruffs, Talitha], PookyTheMagicalBear, [LoudmouthLee, VitaminR], No Lynch, Thesp

[Thesp]

Ack, I should use Preview Panes better. Revoting, based on claim:

Vote: IH

, Dani Banani, Cogito Ergo Sum, logicticus, MrBuddyLee, [Gaspar, Tamuz, Zindaras], [Dragon Phoenix, Mgm, Skruffs, Talitha], PookyTheMagicalBear, [foolinc, LoudmouthLee, VitaminR], No Lynch, Thesp

[Thesp]

Nothing he has done this game has worried me, to put it simply. I'm not worried by the difference in suspicions. I don't see that as that unlikely between pro-town players.

The case against him isn't that strong and the readiness with which people seem to switch to him is also something that makes me feel better about MGM.

I like this post a lot.

I'm not seeing any reason to change my vote.

[Thesp]

Whew! What a game! Smooth, Gaspar! =D

[Thesp]

Way to go glrok

Woo!

Am I okay to post the QuickTopic, guys?

I'm cool with it.