Mini 486: GAME OVER!

[Elias_the_thief]

Why are you selfvoting...are you honestly giving up?

[Nelly632]

Well before you give up and try to lynch yourself, do us all a favor and roleclaim...

[vollkan]

I was going to write another fuming defense, pointing out how what Elias pointed out aren't really backtracks and how Nelly is once again misrepresenting me, but I decided to take a walk instead. It gave me a view to the other side of this whole situation. So, lemme try this again.

Actually, you have a point.

Backtrack 1 has already been rebutted.
Backtrack 2 - explain this one please.
Backtrack 3 is not a backtrack. It was Hermit messing up the impression/point thing. That impression thing is suspicious to me, but it is a separate issue.

In other words, of the three listed by Elias, only 1 is genuine.

Great post Elias... Great way of demostrating how Hermit has backtracked in the past...

"Great post"? Hardly.

[curiouskarmadog]

this is ridiculous

[vollkan]

What is ridiculous?

[gorckat]

Home. Vacation was good times.

Just posting so ABR doesn't need to replace me (I saw his PMs and he called me out twice in my last ~hour of reading.)

More later. If I ever catch up, assuming 'novels' are still getting posted

[Elias_the_thief]

backtrack - to withdraw from an undertaking, position, etc.; reverse a policy.

First he said he wanted to lynch based on non participation. After pressure, he said that he said would remove his vote after OJ was replaced. That post he quoted was the post that came after the pressure, in which he claimed not to change his opinion, yet did. That is a backtrack (withdrawal of a position). Nowhere, (I just reread) was this adequately rebutted. I'm disappointed in you Vollkan.

The second one is not as blatant, but he took his vote off after being pressured for reasoning. This is also a backtrack, because at the time of the vote, the reasoning for him voting me is misrepresentation of his oj vote. When pressured he comes up with the bit about getting the shifty/dodgy impression. I just noticed this, and it is a contradiction.

Despite my recent arguments, I'm beginning to question my own assuredness that Hermit is scum. However, I do this all the time, which is what makes me such a poor scumhunter. Im conflicted on this, but the vote stays for now. Plenty of time til' deadline.

[vollkan]

First he said he wanted to lynch based on non participation. After pressure, he said that he said would remove his vote after OJ was replaced. That post he quoted was the post that came after the pressure, in which he claimed not to change his opinion, yet did. That is a backtrack (withdrawal of a position). Nowhere, (I just reread) was this adequately rebutted. I'm disappointed in you Vollkan.

The second one is not as blatant, but he took his vote off after being pressured for reasoning. This is also a backtrack, because at the time of the vote, the reasoning for him voting me is misrepresentation of his oj vote. When pressured he comes up with the bit about getting the shifty/dodgy impression.

I just noticed this, and it is a contradiction.

I didn't realise his post with regards to pressure came afterwards. That does change things. I'm disappointed in myself.

As for the contradiction, I agree completely, but isn't that the sort of thing which you and Hermit were just criticizing me for?

Also, has Albert stated his deadline lynch policy anywhere in this thread? I know some mods have different policies (ie. "Person with most votes providing it is at least half the votes cast") so I just want to be sure.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I have a

question for the mod

- On page 1 you say:

With 12 alive, its 6 to lynch!

Can you just confirm that is correct? In most games I have played it is usually 7 out of 12 needed to lynch (or the equivalent sort of thing like 4 out of 7, 3 out of 4 etc.).

Yes, this is correct. This game will move at a slightly faster pace than most games, and it will always take half the players to lynch when the number of total players are even, and above half when the number of players are odd. At deadline, it will take the same number of players to lynch as now. If you do not reach half or over(even or odd) by that time, there will be a no-lynch and we will move on to night. I wouldn't let discussion slow down if I were you, because deadlines will not be extended.

[vollkan]

Thanks for that Albert. Sorry for making you restate your policy.

Well, that means that my pressuring vote on Para is worthless, since Para will need 6 votes to be lynched at deadline.

In which case, I reset to my previous position.

Vote: TheHermit

. As I have already said, my suspicion on Hermit has never waned in any way; my vote changed merely because I was trying to look elsewhere and did not want to appear to gung-ho about Hermit whilst I felt there were other avenues to pursue.

[TheHermit]

Why are you selfvoting...are you honestly giving up?

I've been trying to defend myself for four days and watching my attempts fail while my anger rises. Rather than continue with this song-and-dance I'm doing my blood pressure a favor and helping you lynch me, which is clearly what you all want anyway.

Well before you give up and try to lynch yourself, do us all a favor and roleclaim...

Vanilla townie. No powers, no masonry. Does this change anything, seeing as how you don't trust me anyway? Didn't think so. Let's just move along and execute me.

[vollkan]

Hermit, playing the exasperated townie is not pro-town.

You are saying that you are pro-town and yet, simultaneously, you are professing your behavious is scummy and actually seeking to aid your lynch.

If you were pro-town, you would continue to argue since that would benefit the town. There is still a week until deadline and, thus far, you only have 3 votes from other players on you.

Throwing in the towel prematurely as you are doing looks like a last-ditch effort to cast off suspicion when everything else has failed.

[TheHermit]

Who's playing anything? I really

am

sick and tired of this. I explain myself, you don't believe me. That's fine. Not trusting people is what the game's about. You refuse to listen to me and refuse to see my side of the story. But now you want me to go back to screaming at people who obviously don't care about anything I have to say? Forget that. It's a waste of your time and mine. There's no point in arguing with a brick wall, so I'm stepping back and letting you all knock yourselves out.

Just two quick things that occurred to me while writing this.

Your last post sounds like you're trying to say you're not at fault that I'm getting lynched. This sounds like you KNOW what I'm going to turn up as and are trying to say it's all my fault. After you've done so much work pushing me into a corner, I think it's rotten of you to claim that you had nothing to do with it.

Also, vollkan, you never unvoted Paradox so your last vote against me doesn't count. And we still have a week before the deadline... we're not "so close". Look at all that's happened in the past week, and you'll see how quickly things can change.

[vollkan]

Your last post sounds like you're trying to say you're not at fault that I'm getting lynched. This sounds like you KNOW what I'm going to turn up as and are trying to say it's all my fault. After you've done so much work pushing me into a corner, I think it's rotten of you to claim that you had nothing to do with it.

Not at all. What I am saying is that it doesn't make sense for you to be saying that you are pro-town but then be throwing in the towel, because if you were genuine about being pro-town you would be disadvantaging the rest of us.

I'm not denying that I am responsible for much of the case against you. But if you are pro-town and believe the case to be wrong then you should be arguing back. How can you persuade people that you aren't scum if you just give in?

Also, vollkan, you never unvoted Paradox so your last vote against me doesn't count. And we still have a week before the deadline... we're not "so close". Look at all that's happened in the past week, and you'll see how quickly things can change.

I said we were close to deadline, quite the opposite:

If you were pro-town, you would continue to argue since that would benefit the town.

There is still a week until deadline

and, thus far, you only have 3 votes from other players on you.

Throwing in the towel prematurely as you are doing looks like a last-ditch effort to cast off suspicion when everything else has failed.

Having done a brief reread of some stuff, a few things occurred to me and, as a result, I have a strong feeling (bordering on certainty) that one of Hermit or Elias is scum. The only problem is that I am utterly conflicted as to which.

Elias's approach to Hermit concerns me a bit. Elias declared his suspicion of Hermit and other people in #284, after I had criticised the voters that followed me (including Hermit) in #281.

Move forward to #296 where I accuse Hermit of backtracking for unvoting Elias and of dodging my question as to why he voted in the first place. In #304, Elias votes Hermit for the previous stuff and backtracking.

Then we have the backtrack and contradiction stuff, now, once I start expressing lack of certainty about Hermit, Elias follows suit with

Despite my recent arguments, I'm beginning to question my own assuredness that Hermit is scum. However, I do this all the time, which is what makes me such a poor scumhunter. Im conflicted on this, but the vote stays for now. Plenty of time til' deadline.

This is only a sketch of my current dilemma, I will read more to try and get a fuller picture. But I want people to think about it.

[curiouskarmadog]

What is ridiculous?

the hermit's self vote

[curiouskarmadog]

I am not sure enough that Hermit is scum..(currently with his self vote he is at -2). I think that without the replacements here we will probably have a no lynch. For the record I would rather no lynch then lynch someone who I am uncertian of. I think that Para (or Elias) are the way to go...I think Hermit is an overzealous idiot townie....did Hermit ever vote for Nelly? I will have to go back and check, seems to me that he would have gotten a vote in there to lynch Nelly is he was scum.

Hermit, remove your vote from yourself if you are town. If you are town and you hang yourself you are not saying "look I told you so"...you are displaying your immaturity..more like "fine, I am going to take my ball and go home"...be a man, and fight with your last breath. I can show you plenty of times I was lynched Day 1 or 2 as town and kept pointing fingers as I went...it didnt help me when I was hung, but it helped the town in later parts of the game....dont be immature...dont be a bad townie....if you are dead, and the town still wins, it counts as a win for you...

[vollkan]

I am not sure enough that Hermit is scum..(currently with his self vote he is at -2). I think that without the replacements here we will probably have a no lynch. For the record I would rather no lynch then lynch someone who I am uncertian of. I think that Para (or Elias) are the way to go...I think Hermit is an overzealous idiot townie....did Hermit ever vote for Nelly? I will have to go back and check, seems to me that he would have gotten a vote in there to lynch Nelly is he was scum.

I think we can avoid a No Lynch. We have 7 "active" players:

CKD
TheHermit
Para
Elias
Nelly
Vollkan
Gorckat

The issue, of course, is getting the 6 votes on one person.

If it comes down to a deadline, I favour lynching (in order):
1) Elias (on that note:

Unvote, Vote: Elias_the_thief

; then VERY closely followed by
2) Hermit; then
3) Para

I've never been in this sort of deadline situation before and it is rather frustrating because I don't know the best way to deal with it. Usually it is the person with the most votes and, hence, the number of votes is never really an issue. We may even need some kind of democratic system among the 7 of us, if worst comes to worst (hence why I listed)

[curiouskarmadog]

If it comes down to a deadline, I favour lynching (in order):
1) Elias (on that note:

Unvote, Vote: Elias_the_thief

; then VERY closely followed by
2) Hermit; then
3) Para

I've never been in this sort of deadline situation before and it is rather frustrating because I don't know the best way to deal with it. Usually it is the person with the most votes and, hence, the number of votes is never really an issue. We may even need some kind of democratic system among the 7 of us, if worst comes to worst (hence why I listed)

I would rather lynch Para, for lies upon mis truths...but if the time comes I will vote Elias...I am not sold on Hermit and if everything remains constant will not vote for him Day 1.

[Paradoxombie]

What's the argument against Elias, again?

[Elias_the_thief]

Vollkan, I expressed suspicion for Hermit long before you did. You know, what you grilled me about for our several page discussion?
Also, I did not first express suspicions for people jumping on in 284, I did so in 230:

Im starting to get tired of people saying I'm the most suspicious without being able to back it up, so excuse me if this post comes across as really pissed off.

Again in 244:

All the people who have attacked me attack me under the assumption that the idea theyre attacking is the only reason.

This is no defense unless you show how all 3 things cannot be true at the same time. Then its up to us to decide which exclusive option is most likely.

What? We're talking about my reasons for voting. They

are

all true at the same time, I'm saying people have been attacking each reason independantly as if it were the only reason I voted the way I did.

What it looks like is you have done 3 scummy things and are getting called on them all.

Huh? Explain in your own words how any of the reasons I used were scummy.

volkan's post makes a great deal of sense, and lays a good case for voting elias. In xombie's favor was oman approving a plan involving his lynch, although oman could have been counting on a townie vig to collapse the plan (which I think volkan has said himself).

I just refuted most of his points...could you come up with your own ideas before mirroring someone elses?

And especially, at least listen to a persons defense before agreeing with the person attacking them.

In 272:

And now you vote for me. What are your reasons?

You are simply jumping on because you can.

First, you have not responded to any of my arguments, and let Vollkan do that work for you. Second, Vollkan hasnt even responded to my most recent proof that I didnt make a contradiction. Thus my first and most prominent reason for making my vote stands. I have no idea why I'm being voted by practically everyone.

I want an explanation from Gorkcat and the hermit as to why theyre voting me.

I expressed my opinion three times before you pointed them out. This is a BS point. The reason I waited to vote until that late is because it was when you finally stopped attacking me, and I didnt need to spend all day every day defending myself, allowing me to actually act on my suspicions.

And finally, note that while I'm not as confident (mainly due to the "Go town", which Ive recently realized is an appeal to emotion, nothing more) I also said that my scumhunting skills have had me doubting myself before, and I end the post by saying I plan to keep my vote on, so as to not avoid the mistake I made last time I doubted my convictions. Your reasons for voting me over Hermit are ridiculous, especially when I have successfully argued against every point you've brought against me, while Hermit is still guilty of a contradiction and two backtracks. In addition, he's given up, while I keep arguing, which you admitted it a much more protown play.

As to para, I'm pretty pissed that he told me he would go and look into his other suspicions. Since from that point on, he hasn't posted any content.

[Nelly632]

Elias was at one time a top suspect in this game and because of that he got rode to the ground and frustrated that his point was not getting through to everyone...

What did he do then?

He continued to fight and finally some pressure was removed from him...

Hermit becomes the top suspect in this game and because of that he is being rode hard and he is getting very frustrated...

What does he do?

He votes himself and gives up.

Lets say for a second that we are all WRONG and both ELIAS & HERMIT are both TOWN... It appears that we are going to lynch one or the other today before the deadline is up (Unless something else comes up)... If both are town and we are making a terrible mistake I would rather have ELIAS in day two over Hermit because Elias fought to the end and didnt give up... But just to be clear I believe Hermit to be Scum and that is why my vote is one him & the above comment is based on a hypothetical situation...

ALSO...

I understand that the MASONS are not going to stick their neck out so it can be chopped off but with 3 MASONS in this game you would assume that they have a more clearer view of this game then the rest of us... By this I mean that I myself personally can only confirm 2 ROLES, Nelly632 & Oman, while a Mason can confirm there own role, the two other mason roles and Omans role...

[vollkan]

Unvote

. I had a suspicion that you had been opportunistic based on the #284 stuff and I wanted to see how you responded under serious pressure for it (hence me placing you first in the list). I completely missed the earlier stuff from you. I'm usually much better at checking against old posts, but this thread is getting so huge that I am getting lost.

Frankly, I am completely frustrated at the moment. I have multiple different possible theories running around and each new post seems to alter which one I favour (hence my erratic voting).

I really don't like Hermit's actions, but I behaved almost exactly like that myself in my first game and I was a vanilla.

Para's stuff with the dragged out and misappropriated quotes has added to my suspicion of him. He didn't just explain himself like Elias, he had to strike out.

[TheHermit]

Uh oh! Look out everyone, TheHermit is backtracking again! Everybody bandwagon!

Unvote

I'm still not sure exactly what it is you intend for me to do... I can't attack (you'd accuse me of deflecting suspicion) or defend (because I don't get the sense that any of you are really listening). And I'm certain that Elias or vollkan is going to point to this and call it another backtrack or contradiction or whatever. Hell, if I were in your position I'd be voting for me on the basis of me being idiot town at best. But after sleeping on it I've calmed down a little and realized you're right. The worst thing a townie can do is get lynched and not leave their suspicions behind as clues, so I'll get right on that so at least SOME good could come of my death.

Unfortunately, I'll be very busy IRL today. I'll check up on my suspicions tonight and post them on the morrow.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I think I'm gonna go ahead and

vote:TheHermit

While I agree with volkan that it's quite likely that TheHermit is just a loose playing newbie, I still think he is lynch-worthy. Even ignoring his "backtracking", I think his reasoning for his vote on oj and his response to sudden supicion on him are both pretty damn scummy and can't be taken back. I also don't like Oman's single interaction then complete ignorance of TheHermit. Atm, he looks like the most likely scum to me.

[JordanA24]

Right, sorry that I haven't posted for ages, I had a complete analysis a couple of days ago, but I lost it, I've been working on a new one yesterday, which should be completed by the end of the day.