Ultimate Videogame Topic 3: The Next Generation

[Chevre]

I'm playing Runescape again. It's happening.

IT'S JUST SO ADEQUATE GUYS

[Zachrulez]

I am so lost in prison architect. Seem to run out of money around the time the prisoners actually want stuff I can't afford.

[Untrod Tripod]

the Tropes vs Women that dropped today is... problematic to say the least

[hasdgfas]

the Tropes vs Women that dropped today is... problematic to say the least

I'm not sure whether you mean "it pointed out some problematic stuff" or something else.

[Untrod Tripod]

the conclusions reached were really wrong in a lot of cases, although many of the examples were actually sexist this time

[Untrod Tripod]

the main problem I find with the series is it seems like FF goes into their video creation process with an end result in mind rather than collecting data and figuring out with the root causes of sexist tropes are with a critical eye.

I think the answer most of the time isn't "because games and male gamers are overwhelmingly sexist", and I don't think the data supports that conclusion. it really bugs me watching their stuff and thinking over and over "okay, but you haven't really proven that". they just flatly state "because misogyny" and never actually support it with anything other than raw data and a list of tropes they made up labels for

[Venmar]

Mad Max looks super fun, kind of like a Post-Apocalyptic version of Shadow of Mordor, which was a fantastic game. I don't know if i'll get it at full price but it's definitely on my wishlist now, it looks great imo.

[Iecerint]

the main problem I find with the series is it seems like FF goes into their video creation process with an end result in mind rather than collecting data and figuring out with the root causes of sexist tropes are with a critical eye.

I think the answer most of the time isn't "because games and male gamers are overwhelmingly sexist", and I don't think the data supports that conclusion. it really bugs me watching their stuff and thinking over and over "okay, but you haven't really proven that". they just flatly state "because misogyny" and never actually support it with anything other than raw data and a list of tropes they made up labels for

I watched it just because you mentioned it, but I thought her points were super clear and accurate to the point of facility.

I don't think the take-away is supposed to be "gamers are awful people." She actually stops at several points and says like "NOTICE: THE POINT OF THIS IS NOT X," where X is "games having sex scenes" or "gamers are sexist" or whatever. Instead, the point is that men are socialized to behave certain ways toward women. Video games reflect that and contribute to it. It's so normative that gamers get upset when game developers sometimes try to buck that trend.

[Untrod Tripod]

I did think that this was the best video in the series by far in terms of presenting actual arguments, but I do think it's worth mentioning that you're conflating "sexist" with "bad person" when that is not the point I am trying to make. and I strongly disagree with you that the point made is not "gamers and games are overwhelmingly sexist". that was literally the what all of the arguments made pointed to, regardless of what the talking head said.

but that's getting off into the weeds.

and anyway, what I found really contradictory between their data and their arguments with was their claim that female characters are being FORCED into behaving sexually when they show female characters being willing and enthusiastic participants in sexual activity. now, there is a much more nuanced argument to be made that it's a more insidious form of sexism to show women using sex as a tool and a currency (although I think, from a feminist perspective, that women should have every right to monetize and commodify their sexuality) as their main thing to offer a player, but THEY COMPLETELY IGNORED THAT ARGUMENT and just pushed ahead with the argument that female characters in video games have no agency.

[Untrod Tripod]

and for the record:

I do think there is a lot of sexist shit in video games and I always watch their videos because I think that feminist critique of the genre is a fertile topic for discussion. and it bothers me that this group, with all their publicity, is completely fucking up a good opportunity to have that discussion. while there is inevitably going to be some backlash if you point out that people behave in bigoted ways, the bigger problem is that their videos present flawed arguments.

[Untrod Tripod]

but hey, they're doing a great thing by getting people to talk about video games from the perspective of gender relations. so at least there's that.

[hasdgfas]

I did think that this was the best video in the series by far in terms of presenting actual arguments, but I do think it's worth mentioning that you're conflating "sexist" with "bad person" when that is not the point I am trying to make. and I strongly disagree with you that the point made is not "gamers and games are overwhelmingly sexist". that was literally the what all of the arguments made pointed to, regardless of what the talking head said.

but that's getting off into the weeds.

and anyway, what I found really contradictory between their data and their arguments with was their claim that female characters are being FORCED into behaving sexually when they show female characters being willing and enthusiastic participants in sexual activity. now, there is a much more nuanced argument to be made that it's a more insidious form of sexism to show women using sex as a tool and a currency (although I think, from a feminist perspective, that women should have every right to monetize and commodify their sexuality) as their main thing to offer a player, but THEY COMPLETELY IGNORED THAT ARGUMENT and just pushed ahead with the argument that female characters in video games have no agency.

There's definitely a fine line. I don't agree with Sarkeesian on all her points(for instance, I think that Bayonetta is a fantastic example of a feminist character who has agency and uses her sexuality as part of her character), but this one has an interesting line between "forced as part of the programming" and "willing and enthusiastic", which I can't really speak to with much authority.

Also I think the main point is "hey, games have a lot of really sexist stuff going on. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy them or anything, just keep an eye on it"

[Faraday]

Phantom Pain is fantastic so far. Prologue is...

weird

, even for Metal Gear Solid.

[Brandi]

I did think that this was the best video in the series by far in terms of presenting actual arguments, but I do think it's worth mentioning that you're conflating "sexist" with "bad person" when that is not the point I am trying to make. and I strongly disagree with you that the point made is not "gamers and games are overwhelmingly sexist". that was literally the what all of the arguments made pointed to, regardless of what the talking head said.

but that's getting off into the weeds.

and anyway, what I found really contradictory between their data and their arguments with was their claim that female characters are being FORCED into behaving sexually when they show female characters being willing and enthusiastic participants in sexual activity. now, there is a much more nuanced argument to be made that it's a more insidious form of sexism to show women using sex as a tool and a currency (although I think, from a feminist perspective, that women should have every right to monetize and commodify their sexuality) as their main thing to offer a player, but THEY COMPLETELY IGNORED THAT ARGUMENT and just pushed ahead with the argument that female characters in video games have no agency.

There's definitely a fine line. I don't agree with Sarkeesian on all her points(for instance, I think that Bayonetta is a fantastic example of a feminist character who has agency and uses her sexuality as part of her character), but this one has an interesting line between "forced as part of the programming" and "willing and enthusiastic", which I can't really speak to with much authority.

Also I think the main point is "hey, games have a lot of really sexist stuff going on. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy them or anything, just keep an eye on it"

Yeah Bayonetta is definitely a sexualized character done right imo!

This is the first FF I've ever watched where I thought many legitimate points were made. But I still don't think that all females being sexualized in games is bad, and I really dislike the anti-sexy/cute outfits argument. Especially when the outfit isn't even what you normally run through the game with.

For me more though when it comes to "Women as prizes" in videogames, that trope is also just super boring and overdone.

[Iecerint]

Female characters are imaginary. They are all "forced" to be sexy (because they are drawn that way).

[Untrod Tripod]

...you do understand that's not at all relevant, right?

[Brandi]

Happy Scumday UT :0

[hiplop]

Phantom Pain is fantastic so far. Prologue is...

weird

, even for Metal Gear Solid.

mine keeps crashing on boot

[xRECKONERx]

MSGV feels like an eternal game. I think I love it?

I'm only about 6% done right now and easily have 20 hours in the game at this point, I think.

On the one hand, I love the amount of shit there is to do and how vast and real the open world feels. I like the customization options and I like the feel/vibe of the story so far. It's also astoundingly beautiful. (I have it downscaled from 4K because I built a new rig and it looks INCREDIBLE).

That being said... the stealth feels a bit repetitive in this one. With the outdoor environment, every mission just ends up being "crouch through grass, run through buildings, hide behind wall, sneak up and KO some guy from behind" over and over. I don't feel like there's really any room for experimentation... at least, not significant experimentation. "I could approach the base from the east instead of west and use the exact same stealth techniques" doesn't really do it for me... then again, I had this problem with MGS3 as well. I much preferred the corridors and internal environments in MGS2 for actual stealth gameplay, where there were nooks and crannies and hallways and lockers. It felt a lot better being cramped and claustrophobic for me. The open world environment just makes it too... easy? And there's not enough cool places to improvise.

I'm also not huge on the Mother Base thing. I mean, maybe I'm just not far enough yet, but it feels like this nagging chore to go through and spend resources on shit I don't really care about. I liked just finding weapons in previous games, or unlocking them by completing certain challenges. In this one, I'm constantly seeing new shit pop up and I can't develop it because I don't have the right R&D level, which involves paying attention to the soldier stat management microgame that really just feels tedious and extraneous. And then like 99% of the crap I can develop, I don't want, because I'm trying to be as non-lethal as possible. I don't think I've used anything except the tranq pistol the entire game, with the exception of one long range assassination via sniper rifle.

It's still really good and I love the game and this probably sounds more harsh than I mean it to sound. But every time I have to open the MB menu I cringe a little bit, and I also find myself feeling like the various bases and stuff don't allow much variation/improvisation in the stealth.

[bv310]

So I bought a PS4 for the new Destiny DLC (been watching streams and the game looks right up my alley), as well as a handful of other games. Anybody else have one? If so, what games should I be on the lookout for?

[DeathNote]

Witcher 3, no man's sky, star wars battlefront, rainbow 6 siege

[tanstalas]

Go for the humble bundle and get the top one and get rainbow 6 and a t shirt

Reck, did you get the dog in MGSV ?

I hear he only shows once, he's so cute

Yeah, people are at like 50 hours and only on like mission 20

[Iecerint]

...you do understand that's not at all relevant, right?

It's relevant because you argued that sexualization of female game characters was not problematic because female characters owned their sexuality, and you suggested that feminism should appreciate that. Your tone suggested that your different perspective on this point resulted from everyone else being too stupid to understand it.

The counterpoint is that "strong" female video game characters who run around naked aren't really "owning" their sexuality because the notion that that is a typical way of expressing agency is a male fantasy (e.g., the scene with Judith from that video). It's like creating a "sexy lawyer Barbie" -- she's empowered, so she doesn't need to present realistically.

You can counter-counterpoint that she's a video game character and not worth such scrutiny, but that's probably not a perspective to be shared by someone who bothered to investigate the issue in the first place.

[Untrod Tripod]

It's relevant because you argued that sexualization of female game characters was not problematic because female characters owned their sexuality, and you suggested that feminism should appreciate that. Your tone suggested that your different perspective on this point resulted from everyone else being too stupid to understand it.

The counterpoint is that "strong" female video game characters who run around naked aren't really "owning" their sexuality because the notion that that is a typical way of expressing agency is a male fantasy (e.g., the scene with Judith from that video). It's like creating a "sexy lawyer Barbie" -- she's empowered, so she doesn't need to present realistically.

there is a much more nuanced argument to be made that it's a more insidious form of sexism to show women using sex as a tool and a currency (although I think, from a feminist perspective, that women should have every right to monetize and commodify their sexuality) as their main thing to offer a player

I thought I had already addressed that point, and had not said that it wasn't problematic.

anyway my main point was I have a problem when the argument is that female characters are being described as "forced" into sexual activity when
a. that is not shown in the examples given
b. they are enthusiastic participants

literally what I said was that the video presents a critique that is not supported by the examples that they showed. and you're talking about how video game characters are "forced" into activity by being drawn that way. which is insane.

[Untrod Tripod]

I think there's been a miscommunication here, because you seem to think that I don't find sexism to be an issue in video games (which I do) and you seem to think I think everyone else is dumb (I don't)

so the problem is probably the way I'm communicating