Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

"Post or Perish!"™

I need to see an uptick in posting please everyone, or you'll be facing a deadline.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

5th Vote Count of Day 2

Nelly632 - 2 (vampyrusddg, Muerrto)
Malchonn - 1 (death_omen)

Not Voting:

- 6 (Hjallti, Malchonn, Nelly632, Plessiez, SeraphicMirth, somestrangeflea, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch

[SeraphicMirth]

Alright everyone..back to reading through pages.. I dunno..I'm gonna re-read a few times and see if anything stands out once I know it like the back of my hand lol

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok, I've read through and I just have to

vote VampanzeHunter

yet again. Too many contradictions, even from like page 1.

#5 Hijallti random votes VH
#8 VH random votes Hijallti

Then this happens:
#18

Ok it's question time.

Question by Plessiez

Oh, no, better question: is it simply coincidence that you are "randomly" voting for somebody who had just voted for you?

Answer: Whoops I didn't look at who voted me I just looked at the list of names and chose one and then thought of a strange reason.

Keep this answer in mind..especially the "just looked at the list of names and chose one" part. Now, let's mosey on over to page 10, post #244

1)Do you still stand by your comment that your first vote was completely random or would you like to say that it was based on him voting for you?

Answers

1)Ok, ok I admit that it was partly to do with OMGUS but it was mostly to do with random vote+ a random reason!

So on #18 they said they randomly picked the name from the list and then in #244 they said it was OMGUS with a random reason. Sooo...yeah DIRECT CONTRADICTION.

Want more?

#22 - nervous about vote..is at "-5"..that's only 2 votes in the random stage, #39 - worried about their vote count again. All votes against him were random at that point.

#98 - overacting? no one said there was an SK for sure..just that muerrto "could be a scum or sk" (#96) Also says in this post "I have 2 chances of dying"..trying to drop too much of a town hint?

#150 - posts after lurking a while to repeat what others have been saying - that we need to look for other scum for d2, but doesn't offer suggestions or ask questions. Then, asks Pless if their answers to his questions (#147) were satisfactory enough -- again, seems like nervous scum.


#147/#166/#189 - #147 he says that Khel isn't as suspicious, then in #166- Khel is more suspicious. #147- says that Khel has said some things to open his eyes, #189 says that Khel has done nothing, in his eyes, to help the town.

#169- we should "probably" lynch Khel and tells us to make a note of the word "probably" ...because he knows that khel isn't scum..?

#212- explains the inaccuracies by saying they forgot what they said before. That is so strange and scummy to me.

See Pless' #215, I think it's good

#225 now thinks that Khel is town after saying he was scum in #166 and reconfirming in #199


Then there is my #451 which shows even more flip-flopping!

In addition, I've pointed these out before..and at least one other person has pointed out some of it. Yet, no one really ever comments about it. I won't say why I think this is strange, because it's probably WIFOM, I think..which probably also means I shouldn't go by it.. but..it's strange.

I'm sorry but when I re-read I just can't see anyone else sticking out so much as VH. So, unless something drastic happens otherwise, there's where my vote is going to be for the 2nd day in a row.


I dunno..no one else has to vote with me if I'm way way off and crazy. That's fine.

[death_omen]

Hmm. interest thoughts that you backed up with loads of post numbers, after re-reading through your reasons, I think its fair enough to conclude that this guy has a lots of changes of heart very often and is mainly a wagon hopper after someone has started a movement against a particular player.

I would like to hear from Malchonn, otherwise my vote on him would remain.

[Malchonn]

I am very sorry for my absense. I realize one of the reason we may hav e a deadline is because of people like me not taking the time to look here or post, again my apologizes.

Malchonn - who is at the top of your list?

Doing a reread after this so you will get a double post, but Nelly is #1. There are a couple others at the top like Muerrto and Hjallti, mainly just more my own suspicion nothing soild. I would put D.O on the list but the thoery of the roleblock seems to be what I am leaning towards that would make D.O town, but then again Ples has some good arguements to the contrary.

[death_omen]

Unvote

Todays lynch needs serious thought, a mislynch would put us in very deep waters...[/s]

[Malchonn]

Looks as though there are 2 scenarios that everyone has came up with to understand the Failed test.

A. Role block by scum

D.O investigates and it fails because we have a scum role blocker.

B. D.O is faking it

In the faking scenario D.O says fail because he doesn’t want peg he fellow scum, at the same time doesn't want to peg a town because obviously cause a miss lynch.

Contrary to Ples, I don't see why there is not the possibilty of a scum blocker, so I am leaning towards option

A

, at the same time I will not be trusting D.O completely until I get further proof.

I have kind of already gone over my reasons on Nelly, obviously the hammer still shines, but even further I was kind of expecting a response to my post 376. Where I called him a noob and threw out a scenario, I was wondering if I was even close, but I got no response. In all fairness he did get caught up in a Muerrto debate so I can see how he got distracted.

Here is why I said Hjallti-

Hjallti 357-

If death_omen is scum with a false claim, he could be winning the game for scum right now.

If I go with scenario

A.

and he really is the Cop than you can look at this as an attempt to steer us. I am stretching a bit I know, wifom, but like I said in my last post I really have nothing solid.

Hjallti 365-

vote: Nelly632 I can life with putting him on lynch minus 2

I have already stated why I thought this was scummy, I never like it when someone Votes with reasons unknown to us.

Hjallti 410-

I did put thought in it. I think it is a bit scummy to represent that vote like this.
Before the vote I already explained that I am agreeing with the points against Nelly, but that I didn't take the trouble to spell it out.

I didn't get a chance to post on this yet in my absence so...
Please take the trouble, I was not misrepresenting because when you gave us nothing but the vote, I had know idea you had a reason.

FoS Hjallti

Nothing solid enough for a vote, but FoS non-the-less

It’s hard for me to post anything about my reasons for suspecting Muerrto but I can say that my play style and his always butts heads. I am newer to the Mafia (4 or 5 games under my belt) and I can never seem to grasp what the hell he is saying, "what does he actually mean by that?" He throws me for a loop. Example Post #465 He starts of by agreeing to part of what Ples is saying, but Ples's overall was saying that he was doubting the existence of the scum blocker, later in that same post Muerrto says

So for now we have no choice but to take him at his word.

Meaning D.O is the cop and he was RB'd. I just never know where he stands.

[Hjallti]

@Malchonn, I have really no time at this moment to spell things out. And this might be my only login in this week. My main reason to vote Nelly is in the first place that I have the impression that he not was able to defend satisfactiory against the attacks on him. More pressure might give us more information.

Hjallti 357-
[Quote="Hjallti"
If death_omen is scum with a false claim, he could be winning the game for scum right now.

If I go with scenario A. and he really is the Cop than you can look at this as an attempt to steer us. I am stretching a bit I know, wifom, but like I said in my last post I really have nothing solid.
[/quote]
I don't get your point here. Either death_omen is a cop, or he isn't. Since this is a mini winning a day is very important (as Muerrto already came up with, somewhere). I don't see why it is scummy to say this. I know it is pretty obvious, but I put there as a reminder.

[Muerrto]

It’s hard for me to post anything about my reasons for suspecting Muerrto but I can say that my play style and his always butts heads. I am newer to the Mafia (4 or 5 games under my belt) and I can never seem to grasp what the hell he is saying, "what does he actually mean by that?" He throws me for a loop. Example Post #465 He starts of by agreeing to part of what Ples is saying, but Ples's overall was saying that he was doubting the existence of the scum blocker, later in that same post Muerrto says

So for now we have no choice but to take him at his word.

Meaning D.O is the cop and he was RB'd. I just never know where he stands.

Naw, not contradicting, just agreeing and disagreeing with him at the same time. My point was that just because there's no counter claim doesn't mean DO's a cop. We may not have a plain old 'cop'. Sauce as an inventor would usually got a 'cop' ability. We could also have a jack of trades or something. What I was saying was that knowing Vel from our games, a lack of a plain cop wouldn't be surprising. So I'm not expecting a counter claim.

However, I'm disagree with him that a case wouldn't happen. Like I said, if I had a cop ability, even if I wasn't a plain cop, I'd have checked DO out last night. That way I'd know if I could trust his findings. So since no one's bringing a case against him(although it can be slightly argued that Hjalti and Pless are somewhat, what is you two's stance on the claim?), we have no choice but to trust him for now.

Clearer?

[Muerrto]

Ok, I've read through and I just have to vote VampanzeHunter yet again. Too many contradictions, even from like page 1.

Yeah but look at all those points. To me you pointed out alot of nervousness, I don't really see any scum tells. Now look at how he's playing, nervous, barely posting. He's obviously new to the game. Without harder evidence I can't bring myself to vote him.

Now I AM notoriously bad at allowing newbies to get away with murder because they're new and I chalk it up to that. So I might be way off and crazy too.

[VampanezeHunter]

Ok guys. I'm back! Reading through. I think that SepharicMic is the scummiest. Mainly because of her flip-flopping between suspecting me and not suspecting me.

[SeraphicMirth]

VH - It's only very slight ..I think one time I let you go and unvoted you?? I don't think I've done it more than once. It's because part of me thinks like Muerrto does in this case, and I want to let it go..but then when I re-read you stand out to me so much.

I'm still looking at what others have found and it is possible my vote will change, I just don't know.


Why are we all still discussing whether DO is for real or not? I don't get how it's beneficial to finding the right lynch for today.

[VampanezeHunter]

As I failed to mention it in my last post I only find you slightly scummy. I still find you the scummiest as I don't think that anyone else, now, is scummy.

I agree with you on the bottom line. We need now to try and
A) POST MORE! (this doesn't apply to all people as some have posted a lot)
B) Try and hunt scum.

[Nelly632]

Malchonn Wrote:

I have kind of already gone over my reasons on Nelly, obviously the hammer still shines, but even further I was kind of

expecting a response to my post 376. Where I called him a noob and threw out a scenario, I was wondering if I was even close

, but I got no response. In all fairness he did get caught up in a Muerrto debate so I can see how he got distracted.

The confusing part to me, about your reason, is when you mentioned D.O was getting close to being voted, then he role claimed then we changed direction; so when was at -6 Khel you decided not to let him role claim so we wouldn't change targets? So you took it upon yourself to sacrifice Khel so that others couldn't role claim to get out of trouble, whether fake role claims or not? I guess I can kind of see where you’re coming from; I could never justify that because the role claims could always be false. Just sounds more n00bish than WIFOM.

Question for all with votes or thinking about votes on Nelly, Why you think Nelly's actions were more Scummy than N00b?

As I have explained numerous times, I placed my hammer vote on him because I believed that everyone was placing to much trust and emphasis on the Roleclaims and that we would never exit Day 1 if we continued to allow people to RC... Obviously I was torn between Khelvaster & DO voting wise and I was determined in my mind to vote one of the two off in Day one based on my thoughts... Once the majority stated that they refused to vote off a claimed cop role on day 1 I felt there was a good possibilty that DO was lying and got out of hot water simply based on a RC and now I was left with simply placing a vote on Khelvaster who was the other suspect in my mind. Once he got to -1 and I began to see the writting on the wall and knew that a RC from him would place myself and everyone else in a delima and possibly save him on day one with no actual proff to back up his RC... But you have to understand that this was not my main goal, I didnt cast the hammer completely based on preventing him from RC, I had spoken before my vote about how I believed Khelvaster to be scum and placed my vote on him before... It is not like I came out of the blue without ever casting a FOS on Khelvaster and Hammered him...

Sometimes in this game we stick our neck out and if it results in a SCUM lynch you have been cleared in the eyes of your fellow townies but if it results in the lynch of a fellow townie then you are left holding the bag and SCUM if right there trying to bury you...

If there was a wooden beam holding a building together and everyday someone came by with a AX and took a swing at this beam... Then one day a person comes by and takes that final swing that brings the building tumbling down... Then everyone looks at the person who took the final swing and ignores the other people who took the swings that contributed to the building coming down, how does that make sense? A hammer is not what caused Khelvaster to be lynched a MAJORITY VOTE caused him to be lynched and everyone has failed to look at that majority and has layed the blame entirely on the HAMMER VOTE...

[Muerrto]

As I have explained numerous times, I placed my hammer vote on him because I believed that everyone was placing to much trust and emphasis on the Roleclaims and that we would never exit Day 1 if we continued to allow people to RC... Obviously I was torn between Khelvaster & DO voting wise and I was determined in my mind to vote one of the two off in Day one based on my thoughts... Once the majority stated that they refused to vote off a claimed cop role on day 1 I felt there was a good possibilty that DO was lying and got out of hot water simply based on a RC and now I was left with simply placing a vote on Khelvaster who was the other suspect in my mind. Once he got to -1 and I began to see the writting on the wall and knew that a RC from him would place myself and everyone else in a delima and possibly save him on day one with no actual proff to back up his RC... But you have to understand that this was not my main goal, I didnt cast the hammer completely based on preventing him from RC, I had spoken before my vote about how I believed Khelvaster to be scum and placed my vote on him before... It is not like I came out of the blue without ever casting a FOS on Khelvaster and Hammered him...

Sometimes in this game we stick our neck out and if it results in a SCUM lynch you have been cleared in the eyes of your fellow townies but if it results in the lynch of a fellow townie then you are left holding the bag and SCUM if right there trying to bury you...

If there was a wooden beam holding a building together and everyday someone came by with a AX and took a swing at this beam... Then one day a person comes by and takes that final swing that brings the building tumbling down... Then everyone looks at the person who took the final swing and ignores the other people who took the swings that contributed to the building coming down, how does that make sense? A hammer is not what caused Khelvaster to be lynched a MAJORITY VOTE caused him to be lynched and everyone has failed to look at that majority and has layed the blame entirely on the HAMMER VOTE...

Ok, first off, this post is a plea to emotion and isn't going to help your case. It did however hurt your case.

Once the majority stated that they refused to vote off a claimed cop role on day 1 I felt there was a good possibilty that DO was lying and got out of hot water simply based on a RC and now I was left with simply placing a vote on Khelvaster who was the other suspect in my mind.

Really? Are you sure of that?

Good move Death Omen...

My only question is why would you Role Claim when you have only 4 votes on yourself? You make it seem like we all have worn you down and the truth is that nothing 24 has really changed in the last 24 hours besides me changing my vote your way.

I honestl dont know how to read this role claim...

1) If you are in fact the cop then lynching you would put us deep in hot water..

2) If you are not then you can be trying to draw the real cop out of the water...

example: Khelvster says "Now I know you are scum because I am the cop"

Then you get lynched anyways but now the other Mafia member knows who the cop is and then he ends up dead...

It is interesting to see how everyone else reacts to this and you all play thi game how you want to but my suggestion is IF YOU ARE THE COP and D.O is not DONT SAY ANYTHING...

But good play D.O I am sure you will have people who are on the fence with you rethinking their vote... I know that I wasnt sure and now you put more doubt into my mind...

This post sure doesn't look like you disbelieved the claim. In fact it sounds like you backed him up pretty good. So what's the difference between Khel RC'ing and DO RC'ing?

If there was a wooden beam holding a building together and everyday someone came by with a AX and took a swing at this beam... Then one day a person comes by and takes that final swing that brings the building tumbling down... Then everyone looks at the person who took the final swing and ignores the other people who took the swings that contributed to the building coming down, how does that make sense? A hammer is not what caused Khelvaster to be lynched a MAJORITY VOTE caused him to be lynched and everyone has failed to look at that majority and has layed the blame entirely on the HAMMER VOTE...

Yes. But in this situation it was more like, everyone took weeks between each swing then just when it was ready to fall and we decided to try and rethink whether we WANTED it to fall, you knocked everyone out of the way and kicked it in. It was a speedhammer. If it was a noob move, learn from it. But it was less than 12 hours between the 6th vote and the hammer. And Khel being a major power role doesn't make it look any better. Granted whether you're town or scum you wouldn't know his role but it still affects people's opinions of the situation. NEVER stop someone from RC'ing.

[Nelly632]

Muerrto you are always going to come out here and try to bury me so I just take it with stride... I say that if everyone already has there mind made up and refuses to let the Hammer stand for what it is then cast your vote already and lets get this day over with... I will hammer myself if I get to -1...

You all believe that RC is good and I believe it is not... Plain and simple...

[Muerrto]

You all believe that RC is good and I believe it is not... Plain and simple...

If you don't believe the RC can you explain your post I just quoted above?

I'm not here to bury you, I'm here to figure out if you're lying or not, that's mafia. You're contradicting yourself, that's suspect.

[Nelly632]

I believe D.O roleclaim because no one has discredited him...

I believe waiting for someone to ROLECLAIM before voting them is pointless if you feel you have enough info and are confident in your vote...

[death_omen]

nelly could you stop doing this: (...) all the time it gets pretty annoying.

Now Nelly's last few posts that has really been a bit disturbing:

You all believe that RC is good and I believe it is not... Plain and simple...

Ok fair enough you still don't believe my rc and theres nothing I can do about it as I have already posted who i investigated.

Now then 1 post later this happens:

I believe D.O roleclaim because no one has discredited him.

The only thing I am left saying is huh?

First you don't believe my roleclaim and think muerrto is out to get you, then all of a sudden your mind changes tac and you believe the RC 20 minutes later.

You are basically directing your pleas at Muerrto instead of the town on the whole.
As for the self hammer, that is a bad thing to do or say, your basically willing to give yourself when your at -1 at this basically is a black mark next to your name In my book.

Atm: I'm thinking Nelly and Malchonn are scum, but we should keep an eye on Hjallti and Plessiez, as they do not contribute much until a movement against a particular player has started.

Right Now:

HoS:Nelly632

[Nelly632]

You all believe that RC is good and I believe it is not... Plain and simple...

YOU ALL BELIEVE THAT ROLECLAIMING IS GOOD AND I BELIEVE IT IS NOT...................

My comment never said that YOU ALL BELIEVE HIS RC IS GOOD AND I BELIEVE IT IS NOT....


Oh and no I will not stop ..............................

[Nelly632]

UNVOTE: Vote: Nelly632

[Muerrto]

Getting mad, using caps, and voting yourself. Not helping much.

[somestrangeflea]

YOU ALL BELIEVE THAT ROLECLAIMING IS GOOD AND I BELIEVE IT IS NOT...................

Give reasons people. "You have your opinion and I have mine, so shhh" is not a valid defense.

[Plessiez]

Ugh. I'm

really

sorry about my continued inactivity. I started a (very slow, sadly) reread of the game from day 2, but it's going to be a while before I finish it (especially as I'm trying to keep at least reasonably up to speed with current events in the game as well).

On that note -

please

don't vote for yourself Nelly. If you're town, you're hurting your own team by doing so. If the game is getting to you (and based on both my reread and your latest posts, it seems it is), just try taking a break from it for a bit. Emotional outbursts aren't going to help you.

*sigh*

Anyway. I'll try to get the reread finished properly tomorrow, but I'm not sure I can promise anything. So, a general question to everybody: would you rather I posted thoughts/questions as I went, or waited until I was up to speed? My own preference is to do the latter, but on the other hand I suppose asking questions that might already have been answered is more productive than posting nothing at all .