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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:19 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

deadscilent wrote: SirT-- for his bogus suspicions.
I assure you that my suspicions are real, not bogus.
deadscilent wrote:Me either, which is why Im cautious of doing so.

Why would he claim to being scum if he really was scum?

Who would do that.

and His comment sounded sarcastic to me also.

Alas, I dont know what to do.
I was not being sarcastic at all, and, I certainly did not claim scum.
deadscilent wrote:Adel is pretty high on my scum list also.

I didn't think at the beginning of the game that she was, but she has gotten onto wayyyy too many bandwagons to believe that she is pro-town.
The reasons for which you are bandwagoning Adel are not valid, IMO. Just jumping on people all the time doesn't make anyone scummy -- not Adel most of all, who does this quite a lot on day 1.

What you should look at while a person is bandwagoning someone else, is not the number of times they vote or unvote. What counts is their intention while bandwagoning -- is the vote with the intention to get a lynch or not? Look at Adel's vote on Patrick: It hardly lasted for something like 4-5 posts. There was absolutely no chance of getting Patrick lynched. What concerns me, is that people seem to have set it in RCC that vote-hopping is bad. I really disagree with that: You have to analyze each case separately.

You should put yourself in scum's shoes and see whether the scum would actually gain anything from doing what they are doing. I actually do not see any reason behind Adel's vote hopping if she was actually scum. All that she needed to do was sit back and watch me get lynched. She did not have any realistic hope of deflecting my bandwagon on anyone else except herself. This is why I think she is town.
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:52 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

I wonder if any changes in votes will count now that we're technically past deadline.

An unofficial vote count (based on Patrick's in 486)

Adel (5): Albert B. Rampage, deadscilent, Patrick, Erotomachia, Kravhen
Sir Tornado (2) NabakovNabakov, Blue Zebra
Albert B. Rampage (2): Camisade, Adel
Haut Boy (1): Pickemgenius


I'm not sure what to think about Albert's play the last few pages, it's very very obvious that he wants Adel lynched (possibly for meta-game reasons) and this is really his only activity the entire game. I don't like the blatant way in which he has campaigned for this (it definitely smacks of last minute pressure removal from a scumbuddy), but I'm also unsure of Adel's townieness. I'll keep my vote where it is for now because I'm very unsure of who to trust. Hopefully, that will become clearer after the lynch.
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:44 am

Post by Atticus »

Due to my mistakes, the last votecount of the day was incorrect, and the day went over deadline. I'm sure most players realised this, and I apologise.
Any votes made after the officiated deadline have not been counted.

"Belated Deadline Final Votecount"


Adel
(4):
deadscilent, Erotomachia, Albert B. Rampage, Patrick

Sir Tornado
(3):
Blue zebra, kravhen, NabakovNabakov

Haut Boy
(2):
pickemgenius, Adel

krahven
(1):
Sir Tornado

Albert B. Rampage
(1):
camisade


Not voting (1): Haut Boy


The day was intense, long, and smolderingly hot. As it ends though, you realise one thing. It has gone on too long. A candidate is selected and taken to the gallows.

Adel
, now hanging limp from the noose, is inspected. No incriminating evidence is found on her, and an investigation of her house reveals medical tools, drugs, scrubs, etc.


Adel, Doctor, has been lynched.


Send your choices to me by PM, it is now night.

Deadline is 11:30 PM, EST, Tuesday, August 14, 2007.
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:31 pm

Post by Atticus »

Everyone arises, yawning, stretching, typical morning things.
Except for
kravhen
.

Kravhen died last night. He was found in his bed, bullets found in his body.

Kravhen, Townsperson, has been killed.



Day 2 begins. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:49 pm

Post by kravhen »

Bah!
I'll be cheering you from heaven! XD
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:17 pm

Post by Adel »

I'm sorry I was the doc. I was a doc and lynched in two games within a week. bah.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:51 am

Post by Patrick »

Hmm. Not a very successful first day. I was suspicious of Sir Tornado yesterday, but after some of his posts very late on yesterday, I'm not even confident in that impression anymore either, and I never really felt the case against Haut Boy so I think I'll have to reread. Hopefully the knowledge of Adel and kravhen being town will help that.
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:08 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

Aw crap. Looking back at it now, it seems that the Haut wagon consisted of some townies at least...also, there was only one NK.

And there were a lot of people who tried to go after kravhen day1, just something to think about.
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:28 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

Albert B. Rampage wrote: And there were a lot of people who tried to go after kravhen day1, just something to think about.
A lot of people? I thought I was the only one to do that!
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

Mostly everyone were slightly attacking kravhen while not thinking he is a scum, while you and Adel thought he was scum.

Vote Nabakob


I need time to think why Nabby is scum. I am not sure why yet, just a strong gut feeling.
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:38 am

Post by Sir Tornado »

ABR... first, keeping in mind my post 525, explain the Adel lynch and why you thought she was scummy.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:40 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

It was based on the newbe game I just completed for the most part, and then the weird voting patterns, and then vanishing. I was uncomfortable with you being lynched at that point.
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:25 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

Not a good D1. I still maintain that we were shoehorned into a lynch we weren't ready for, but we still need to step up the play if we want to catch scum.

I really did consider making a case on Albert, the way he awoke from pointlessness and campaigned for votes on Adel just hours before deadline (in order to get revenge on her for playing poorly in another game) was unquestionably scummy, and even moreso now that Adel has been revealed as our Doc. I know that Albert doesn't have a reputation for subtlety, but I couldn't even see Albert-scum being so blatant. This is essentially where we get to WIFOM, so I'll stop. But I will place a
huge
FOS: Albert
because Occam would have wanted me to.

Additionally: *Standard lurker speech* The first two people who posted today are dead, and only 4 people (myself included) have posted since.
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:02 pm

Post by Sir Tornado »

I do not like ABR's reason for lynching Adel too much, but I can partly understand that because I do tend to meta game people a lot too. I'll get back at ABR later.

For now, IGMEO the other people on the Adel wagon. Look at the circumstances in which they switched vote yesterday:

Deadscilent


In post 471, she says that she thinks Haut Boy is scum.

In post 473, she says I am not scum based on my posts about my scum history. It can be interpreted in a pro-town way by me because I was the easiest person to be lynched at that time. Yet, she did not vote for me...

In post 475, she then says Adel is high on her list too. I wonder if she'd mentioned it earlier, and her reasons for putting Adel on the top of her scum list.

Post 477, she takes her vote off Haut Boy, she says she "lets him off" that time. Why? Why let someone off if you believe they are scum?

492, she tells Patrick he is far down on her list as perspective scum. She then votes Adel without any reason.

517, calls my suspicions on Kravhen bogus, and FOSes me.

Bad as this seems, there are 2 things in this that strikes me as being indicators of townie play:

1) She did not jump on my bandwagon, when it was quite easy to mislynch me and get away with it.

2) She called my suspicions on Kravhen, who turned out to be a townie bogus... I am not sure whether a scum would have done that. It is not what she posted that matters to me, as the fact that she did post does. Her posting at that time gave people the possible opportunity to question her vote on Adel right at the end of the day, where you can make slips as scum, and due to that reason, I would not have posted at all had I been deadscilent, after my vote on Adel till day 2 were I scum.

Patrick


Was, for large parts of the game convinced that I was scum, on reasons I thought were very feeble.

In post 478, he says that he did not find my comments about my record as scum, as scummy. I would say that is pro-town, EXCEPT the fact that had a good and experienced player like Patrick said anything else at all, he would have been marked as certain scum.

In the same post, he calls Adel's jumping bandwagons scummy, and raises the possibility of me being scum with her. This, I part, I do find scummy. In fact, I find any and all suggestions of Adel being scum because of her vote hopping extremely scummy. That provides perfect opportunity for the scum to jump her the action is not actually scummy, but everyone thinks it is, and hence provides an ideal opportunity for people to jump on the Adel wagon. I am surprised Patrick would think of that kind of vote hopping as scummy.

In post 500, Patcrick votes for Adel, despite having said earlier that he finds me scummier. Why?

Erotomachia


Again, in 460 lists me as his choice for the list (but, it is interesting to note that he himself had never actually attacked me or tried to get clarification for my play any time on day 1 from me.)

In post 465, he votes me because Haut Boy and I were tied (we were, in fact NOT tied at all. I was leading by 2 votes)

Post 498, he suddenly, for some reason, gets squeamish to lynch me at deadline, and wants to cast his vote on someone else.

Post 502, he asks ABR to convince him to vote Adel instead. In 511, he switches vote to Adel for unbelievably feeble reasoning by ABR. It appears to me, that he wanted ABR to give reasons for Adel wagon, not to convince himself, but to just allow him a reason to vote Adel after having called me scummy first.

I really don't like how Erotomachia, Patrick and Deadscilent were easily convinced by ABR to change their vote to Adel for completely non existent reasons. I do not like the the way they followed ABR.
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:05 pm

Post by Sir Tornado »

NabakovNabakov wrote:Not a good D1. I still maintain that we were shoehorned into a lynch we weren't ready for, but we still need to step up the play if we want to catch scum.

I really did consider making a case on Albert, the way he awoke from pointlessness and campaigned for votes on Adel just hours before deadline (in order to get revenge on her for playing poorly in another game) was unquestionably scummy, and even moreso now that Adel has been revealed as our Doc. I know that Albert doesn't have a reputation for subtlety, but I couldn't even see Albert-scum being so blatant. This is essentially where we get to WIFOM, so I'll stop. But I will place a
huge
FOS: Albert
because Occam would have wanted me to.

Additionally: *Standard lurker speech* The first two people who posted today are dead, and only 4 people (myself included) have posted since.
You attacked me pretty much the entire day yesterday, and not mention me at all in your first post on day 2? Why?
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Post by Patrick »

Sir Tornado wrote:Was, for large parts of the game convinced that I was scum, on reasons I thought were very feeble.
Not true at all. I don't remember ever saying I was convinced you were scum, nor were the reasons feeble.
Sir Tornado wrote:In the same post, he calls Adel's jumping bandwagons scummy, and raises the possibility of me being scum with her. This, I part, I do find scummy. In fact, I find any and all suggestions of Adel being scum because of her vote hopping extremely scummy. That provides perfect opportunity for the scum to jump her the action is not actually scummy, but everyone thinks it is, and hence provides an ideal opportunity for people to jump on the Adel wagon. I am surprised Patrick would think of that kind of vote hopping as scummy.
The action of vote hopping isn't scummy in itself usually. I said that I didn't like her reasons for voting people. Right now, I don't think I can remember a vote she made that I agreed with, and I disliked the way she seemed to predict kravhen would be the lynch from an early stage, especially when I found him to be somewhat protown. I also pointed to her DS vote that I didn't like.
Sir Tornado wrote:In post 500, Patcrick votes for Adel, despite having said earlier that he finds me scummier. Why?
Some of your late actions yesterday put me in real doubt about my suspicion of you. I thought you weren't really playing in self preservation which is how scum play, remember I talked about that in my post 31.

If you could make an effort not to keep misrepresenting me, that would be cool.
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:36 pm

Post by Sir Tornado »

Patrick wrote: Some of your late actions yesterday put me in real doubt about my suspicion of you. I thought you weren't really playing in self preservation which is how scum play, remember I talked about that in my post 31.
That is WIFOM. I could be not playing for self preservation to
make you think
I am not scum, and could, in fact be scum. Not playing for self preservation is not a town tell at all. Depends a lot on the player. Many townies play to desperately survive as much as scum.
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:43 pm

Post by Patrick »

Sir Tornado wrote:That is WIFOM. I could be not playing for self preservation to make you think I am not scum, and could, in fact be scum. Not playing for self preservation is not a town tell at all. Depends a lot on the player. Many townies play to desperately survive as much as scum.
This is an incorrect use of WIFOM. If you think that is truly WIFOM, you could apply WIFOM to almost anything. Obviously scum can act in weird ways to try and confuse us, but the whole point of the game is to look for things that are more commonly done by scum than by town, and look for tendencies in people's play.

Very broadly, the objectives of a protown player are 1) To catch scum. 2) To not be lynched, with number 1 being the most important. The objective of a scumbag is merely to avoid being lynched. So it follows logically that scum are more likely to care about self preservation than town. I'm not saying a town player won't be interested at all in staying alive of course.
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:48 pm

Post by NabakovNabakov »

@Sir T: Strapped for time. I thought addresing Albert was more important, and the lurker thing was basically auto-pilot.

I'm not one of those players who, if the person they're accusing isn't lynched, just drops their vote back on them the next day. I still think that your early behavior concerning Kravhen was fairly scummy, but your recent analysis (525, 538) definitely strikes "lack of original thinking/suspicions" off my list of scumtells. My Eye is definitely still On You, but now that we've entered a new day, I feel like there's some room to pursue other lines of inquiry.

Your analysis of the Adel wagon is one of those very lines:

On deadscilent: I still hold to VI in this case, but that doesn't mean there isn't information to be had (it's just better to forget the semantics). I think the majority of your analysis fits with erratic VI behavior. The vote for Adel was mysterious, but she actually provided more precedent for it than many of the other things she did.

On Patrick: I pretty much agree with what you had to say here. To a point, I understand Patrick's insistence that we end up with
some
kind of lynch at the end of the day, but I'm not sure if that meshes with his vote for Adel, as he seemed to find both her and Sir T equally scummy.
FOS


On Erotomachia: I do think it was odd that he basically said "I'm willing to do this, but post a case first." It seems kind of wishy-washy, but I guess he
was
deciding the lynch for that day. More than any of the other players, he was badgered by ABR into his vote, but that doesn't exonerate him in the least.
FOS


Hitting preview, I can see that Patrick has posted a defense, but it focuses more on the extraneous and the theoretical than the hop itself. I would also like deadscilent and Erotomachia to comment.

@Albert: Have you decided why I'm scummy yet? I can't wait all day.
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:53 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

Hold on, its a long process of elimination, and you happen to be at the bottom. I really can't post right now, going at a show with someone...I'll try to post it this week.
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:56 pm

Post by Patrick »

NabNab wrote:Hitting preview, I can see that Patrick has posted a defense, but it focuses more on the extraneous and the theoretical than the hop itself.
I don't know what you mean. I thought I explained as clearly as is possible why I made that hop: I thought Adel was scummier than Sir Tornado at that point, and getting her lynched seemed realistic. I've also explained why I thought Sir Tornado was looking more innocent. What else would you be looking for?
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:57 pm

Post by Sir Tornado »

NabakovNabakov wrote: I'm not one of those players who, if the person they're accusing isn't lynched, just drops their vote back on them the next day. I still think that your early behavior concerning Kravhen was fairly scummy, but your recent analysis (525, 538) definitely strikes "lack of original thinking/suspicions" off my list of scumtells. My Eye is definitely still On You, but now that we've entered a new day, I feel like there's some room to pursue other lines of inquiry.
My 525 can be as good as ignored as a town tell, actually, because it was made after the deadline had passed. In fact, I would have made exactly the same post had I been scum too. There is absolutely no harm for scum in saying "X is not scum for so and so reasons" AFTER X has been effectively lynched.

538 is a merely a post accusing 3 people who have just switched bandwagons on the last moment to lynch the doctor. It is what most scum would do too.

Why don't you find those possibly scummy posts by me scummy?
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:40 pm

Post by NabakovNabakov »

@Sir T: If you can find the right perspective, just about any post can be seen as "possibly scummy." Besides, I didn't say I got massive pro-town vibes from the posts. I just said that they weren't derivitive of anybody else's, something I had seen as scummy in your eariler posts.

@Patrick: I guess that's what I get for just scanning a post before adding an"on hitting preview" comment. I saw extraneous bits and theory, but I guess I missed why exactly you thought Adel was scummy, so I owe you an apology. However, I think it's odd (especially because you claimed to have had your suspicions of Adel for a while) that you've waited until now to spell them out. In reading your posts at the time, it's just lots of vague "Adel is pretty scummy" remarks. My head was really half-way between those posts and current posts.
[/backpedal]

@Albert: I don't know what being at the "bottom" means exactly, but have fun at the show.
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:06 pm

Post by Patrick »

I did explain the reasons yesterday, though I admit maybe I didn't explain them that well.
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:53 pm

Post by Blue Zebra »

It looked to me like Albert's main motive for getting Adel lynched was to stop Sir Tornado from being lynched. It didn't look like revenge was a factor. If Sir Tornado is scum, Albert is probably his scumbuddy. If Sir Tornado is town, it wouldn't make sense that scum-Albert would make an effort to get Adel lynched when he could've just let Sir Tornado get lynched.

I'm unsure about Sir Tornado right now. I don't think deadscilent or Patrick are scummy, but I'll
Fos: Erotomachia
again.

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