Mini 473: Urban Dead Mafia! Barhah! (Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Hjallti makes some good points...Claus, could you elaborate on the second link you have found ?

[Claus]

Yes, I'm voting Hjallti because he conveniently forgot to add the first few brouhahas in day one. The message I got from him was "Finding out that darko is scum gives us no new info, so forget about it folks".

I don't understand why you didn't say this in your voting mail, which was pretty much crap. Please explain why you didn't say this in the first place!

This bothers me to no end.

Day 1 was not just Darko acting up and we lynching scum: We had Camisade's little silent vote on you.

Guess who was the first to jump on her due to that vote?

I did say this on my voting mail, Hjallti. I just spelled it completely in the second, when people complained I was not clear.

Albert, this is the second link I mentioned. The first is the defense, the second is Darko's attack on camisade.

Hjallti, your "to bus or not to bus" defense is WIFOM, please don't do it Also, complaining that we are in pseudo-lylo is not fair either - you were the first to vote on Zodiac because of her lurking. So, two people with one vote each - not such a big deal, huh?

If you really want me to get off your back, build a better case against someone else. I'm listening.

[Albert B. Rampage]

After re-reading, my personal theory is that Hjallti defended Darko because darko said that Hjallti's defense was "genuine"(this never gets old) and because he knew he was town, he went on and supported someone that supported him. A common newbe mistake, because mafia always try to buddy up with townies to make them look bad when they die.

On another note, it gives me a funny feeling to see that there were numerous FoS, yet only one vote on Hjallti. As an IC, I would say that it is harder to bandwagon scum than town, but our day1 lynch would contradict me. On the other hand, maybe one of the mafia was bussing darko, and the other one was silently watching in horror as his two parters were self-destructing his team. I find this the most likely scenario.

[Smashy]

Vote Count:

Zodiac - 1 - Hjallti
Hjallti - 1 - Claus

Still Swaying: everyone else

With 7 Alive, 4 will lynch

[poppinpuffin]

Hey guys I'm in the middle of my move and won't have internet in the new house until some time in the future. I will not need to be replaced, but am just letting you know that I can only post at other people's hijacked computers.

[Hjallti]

Hjallti, your "to bus or not to bus" defense is WIFOM, please don't do it Smile Also, complaining that we are in pseudo-lylo is not fair either - you were the first to vote on Zodiac because of her lurking. So, two people with one vote each - not such a big deal, huh?

First of all I mentionned that it was WIFOM, and I typed that, because I try to understand the game while typing. It is like thinking a loud. If what I typed that way is really crap, I don't submit (usually), but in that case I thought it helps town to make clear that the whole argument should be settled. So I agree that I should have ended with a Zen-answer to my question:

where [in this list] should we look for scum?

Mu, you shouldn't ask that question, since scum could be anywhere in the list.

I didn't complain about that pseudo-lylo. I just pointed out as a "NOTE" that we need to be very careful today, since we could well be losing 2 townies to night as well, if SK and scum both choose different and unprotected townies.

@ Claus: I already started to build a case against Zodiac since my gut-feeling tells me somethings wrong.
Could everyone comment on how you feel with Zodiacs reaction? He clearly didn't defend but only attacked the attacker. It smelled OMGUS to me.

[pulsewidth]

On the other hand, maybe one of the mafia was bussing darko, and the other one was silently watching in horror as his two parters were self-destructing his team. I find this the most likely scenario.

That's an interesting theory. Would you expand on that a bit? Like, who would you place as being the other two scum in this scenario?

Could everyone comment on how you feel with Zodiacs reaction? He clearly didn't defend but only attacked the attacker. It smelled OMGUS to me.

I'm having a hard time getting a read on Zodiac. You are correct in that he didn't didn't respond to your accusations. I would like to see a response from Zodiac on that.

Camisade, you seemed to have suspicions about darko. What reasons did you have for not voting him?

[Albert B. Rampage]

On the other hand, maybe one of the mafia was bussing darko, and the other one was silently watching in horror as his two parters were self-destructing his team. I find this the most likely scenario.

That's an interesting theory. Would you expand on that a bit? Like, who would you place as being the other two scum in this scenario?

I will need more information to determine who the bussing one was. Looking closely, it looks to me like its camisade who was the absent one. He certainly discouraged darko acting suspiciously, yet never placed a vote or a FoS. He has continuously offered darko opportunities to redeem himself instead of going down that path, as in:

I'm glad that things picked up quickly though. Because you asked us to ask you questions darko:

What do you think of Oman? Do you think the scumtells he sees in you are valid?

It looks to me like he is trying to set darko in a positive light without interfering too much. But what really surprises me is this:

Darko's arguement sums up to "I'm useless so don't vote me!!" which could just be scum trying to keep himself in the game. I'm not voting for him yet (this might be WIFOM but darko's post seemed really defensive to me)

He says he is not voting for darko because darko's post seemed really defensive. Yet when I probe camisade, he says:

(this might be WIFOM but darko's post seemed really defensive to me)

Being defensive is a town-tell ?

I meant being really defensive was a scum-tell.

This is a blatant contradiction. Camisade says that being really defensive is a scum-tell. Then he says darko's post seems really defensive. And he concludes from these two perspectives that darko shouldn't be voted. He uses logical fallacies to shroud his position in uncertainty,
but he made a few mistakes in the process.

You see, when a partner is being bandwagonned, it is one of the most dangerous positions for the scum. The scummates do not want their partner lynched, as it decreases their chances of winning, but they do not want to appear to be defending him too hard. So they try to slide somewhere in between, much like camisade saying darko is scummy, but not scummy enough to depose a vote on because he does scummy things.

This is why I will kick it off with a

vote: camisade

.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Darko was also conforming to this "middle-ground" theory of mine. Watch closely:

I don't get why poppinpuffin or Albert B. Rampage don't bother to vote for camisade if you're going to criticize him. What's so great about your current vote that makes you want to keep it? Sounds like those two don't hvae the best reasons for their votes right now but might be "attacking" a mafia partner.

unvote, vote: camisade

Attacking camisade, of which is probably early distancing.

Well Albert, puffin already asked camisade what the vote was all about, then you simply quoted the entire post and said "yeah, metoo" pretty much. So if you weren't trying to echo and add coal to the fire, then what were you doing by re-quoting everything?

Protecting camisade. He implies I shouldn't add coal to the fire, aka only him and another may attack darko, imo.

Well thanks for explaining the purpose of your entire post earlier. Makes more sense now. It's nice to know that one hour after puffin posts his initial inquiry, that an extra post from Albert is necessary. But at least I understand you better. But at least we agree that camisade requires pressure about that last vote.

Attacking camisade again, but coyly states that he "requires pressure" instead of a more direct confrontation. At this point I believe darko is on really slippery grounds.

I like camisade. I don't like Albert.

unvote, vote: Albert B. Rampage

And now, the final coup de grace. Protecting camisade, attacking the attacker of camisade. He probably thought this was a smart thing to do.

Then again getting concerned when his scumbuddy gets some votes:

is camisade now at three votes? isn't that the most votes anyone has gotten so far in this game?

This is starting to get obvious. While darko has consistently defended Hjallti, and consistently attacked me, he has been very shifty in regards to camisade. I see a strong tie between these two right now.

[pulsewidth]

Given the fact that darko was playing scum pretty obviously, I think it follows that the rest of his play was an open book in regards to his scum buddies as well. I'd like to hear from camisade on this before I make a decision.

[camisade]

I said that I thought being really defensive was a scum-tell but I thought it was also really WIFOM which is why I wasn't sure. And I really had no clue on darko, I couldn't tell if he was just being really stupid or really scummy.

And @ the second post, whenever darko was first attacking/pressuring me it was before I posted my explanation and you accused poppinpuffin of trying to mislead other players and saying that darko's vote on me discouraged your vote on me (for reasons I don't understand, but I don't think it's distancing because I'm pretty sure Albert started the darko bandwagon)

I can understand why I might seem scummy because of darko's attachment to me but I don't think I've ever done anything scummy on my own.

[poppinpuffin]

My internet is still not up at my new house.
Will be posting sporadically for the next 24 hours or so until my dad fixes it.

[poppinpuffin]

(internet works now.)

[Claus]

Given the fact that darko was playing scum pretty obviously, I think it follows that the rest of his play was an open book in regards to his scum buddies as well. I'd like to hear from camisade on this before I make a decision.

Well, I would like to hear more from YOU before you make a decision. You follow Albert "Oh, that's very interesting", "Let me hear more about this", but do you have an opinion yourself? SirTornado was also terribly on the fence on day one.

unvote. FoS: Hjallti

I have just re-read the game again, and I think I'll step back a little from my vote on you. Mind you, I still think your buddying up with Darko suspicious, but I found a second explanation to your "forgetting", that would match a Hjallti-town.

[Claus]

biggerFoS: Zodiac

You made your case against hjallti very wordly when he voted you. You might want to get wordy again, because I'm about to vote you too.

[Zodiac]

you wanted that he wouldn't be lynched since you believed he was scum.

? I think you wanted to type something else here, or you are misreading my entire argument. I never believed he was scum, I was always afraid he was stupid town, rather than very stupid scum, what he turned out to be.

I also never activily tried to buddy up, although that might have been the impression I gave. I did want some answers from Claus and GatorGuy at the end, but Gator not only refused to answer my question, he also denied Claus the chance to answer and the question (if Claus wanted this lynch badly), is easy to answer now, while it would have been more subtle before we knew darko's lineup. It even surprized me that GatorGuy wasn't scum. From the way of killing, and the fact that scum=zombie in this game, I gather that he was killed by SK.
He might have believed him scum or he went for the number two on his scum list, leaving the number 1 for the lynch. But that would be mindreading to know.

So , both acted scummy , but you did only buddy up with him. Why?

You two are scummy in a totally different way: darko in plain sight and you in the shadow.
I didn't buddy up with darko, but tried to postpone his lynch. As said before, I was afraid the bad moves of darko were bad town (rather than extremely bad scum). I think your moves (or absence of moves) are scummy as they are trying to mislead town ("please be active", when you didn't do a thing in the game yet).

So , yet you say that Darko was indeed scummy in your eyes, you still tried to postpone his lynch? Like you wouldn't wan't him lynched while you thought he was scum , and revealed to be scum?

Vote : Hjallti

[pulsewidth]

Vote: Zodiac

You are misrepresenting Hjallti's arguments. He stated that he tried to postpone the lynch because he thought darko was possibly a bad townie. Either explain your vote more clearly, or my vote on you will remain.

Well, I would like to hear more from YOU before you make a decision. You follow Albert "Oh, that's very interesting", "Let me hear more about this", but do you have an opinion yourself? SirTornado was also terribly on the fence on day one.

Well, that tends to be the way I play at times when I'm unsure. I gather information. I asked ABR to flesh out his theory because I wanted to see whether it was just a random idea, or if it actually had some meat to it. He does make some good points, but Zodiac is acting scummier IMO.

[Hjallti]

(...)

So , both acted scummy , but you did only buddy up with him. Why?

You two

are

scummy in a totally different way: (...)
I didn't buddy up with darko, but tried to postpone his lynch. As said before, I was afraid the bad moves of darko were bad town (rather than extremely bad scum). I think your moves (or absence of moves) are scummy as they are trying to mislead town ("please be active", when you didn't do a thing in the game yet).

So , yet you say that Darko

was

indeed scummy in your eyes, you still tried to postpone his lynch? Like you wouldn't wan't him lynched while you thought he was scum , and revealed to be scum?

Vote : Hjallti

Clearly you are very eager to put words in my mouth... as I explained I WAS thinking darko was playing bad, but until the end it wasn't clear to me if this was bad town or bad scum.

After the lynch scene

the answer is clear, so if YOU want to call his behaviour SCUMMY I can live with that and call it scummy as well (I may add that I am a bit ashamed to do so, because I totally missed during the first day). But even if I was convinced he was scum I would have campaigned to postpone the lynch till the monday, as it would make the day a bit longer, under pressure (everyone get tensed during when the hammer is about to fall) and so information might be brought.

As it is now darko helped his scumpartners to hide, and the way you played and play, for example, is in my eyes anything but protown. I still miss the slightest content, investigation, new questions, ... like a townie would do. Your only content at this point is your OMGUS attack on me, where I only can repeat and rephrase old answers (those that fill with me shame).

[Smashy]

Albert B. Rampage and camisade prodded. I am not happy with the activity right now. Expect a deadline if it doesn't pick up.

In the meantime... *grabs that shiny new toolbox, fixes the Vote Count*

Zodiac - 2 - Hjallti, pulsewidth
Hjallti - 1 - Zodiac
camisade - 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Still Swaying: camisade, poppinpuffin, Claus

With 7 Alive, 4 will lynch

[Albert B. Rampage]

Boo.

I don't feel the Zodiac wagon so much , really. Sticking with camisade.

[Claus]

Zodiac, OMGUS'ing Hjallti is really all you have to contribute in the game? :-/

[Claus]

Well, I'll try to contribute with my own ideas about the current people, for whatever it is worth:

Pro-townish:
Albert, Poppinpuffing

Albert: Gets a medal for starting the Darko Bandwagon on D1, and has pushed not too shabby analysis today. I'm ambivalent on his analysis of Camisade, however. On one hand, he seems right when he says that Camisade took it easy with Darko. On the other, his analysis of Darko protecting camisade seems a little far-fetched. Why would Darko push for Albert and Poppinpuffing to vote camisade, just to unvote and attack albert? It seems to me instead that Darko wanted to try to use the "voted just because I said so" excuse on albert instead.

Poppinpuffing:
Pushed some good content on day one. Stopped talking a little after voting darko. First posts on D2 were fine, waiting for her return.

Don't like:
Camisade, pulsewidth (SirTornado)

Camisade:
Lurkish. Voted Hjalltii out of the blue to "draw discussion", but didn't come up with any conclusions from her "test" - could be distancing. Tries to throw mud on Oman via Darko, like Hjallti is doing. But then berates pulswidth for berating me on my Hjallti vote. Otherwise lurkish on D1, assumes a very weak anti-lynch position.

Regarding Albert's vote, Darko's attack on him does not look like distancing for me. I was actually giving town points for Camisade due to that attack.

Pulsewidth: SirTornado Posted a whole 3 times in D1, then asks to be replaced. I hate things like this. Was he lurking, or was he really unable to participate the whole time? D2: I don't like how he FOSes me for voting Hjallti after he himself Mega foses him (obviously ) but his line of thought is not completely bad. Then he starts playing Watson to Albert, and says that's because how he plays when he is uncertain. PW, now that you've voted, are you certain enought to pull out opinions of your own? Who were you deciding between when you said you had to "make a decision"?

Scummy:
Hjallti, Zodiac

Hjallti:
Votes Darko for vote hopping in page 2 or 3, then unvotes because he'll be "10 days away". 10 days later, comes back and makes a big analysis. Says that "Albert, Poppinpuffing, Darko" had "normal reaction to camisade's test, trying to get content". Starts pushing for a Oman lynch. Questions me and others for voting Darko, never questions Poppinpuffing. - Looking less scummy after this re-read. D2 - attacks Zodiac and defends against my accusations.

Hjallti - Opinions on Camisade?

Zodiac: Lurked through all of day 1, and suddenly votes Darko. On D2 OMGUSes Hjallti and does little else. I would vote her if two people I find suspicious were not on the bandwagon already :-/

Zodiac - opinions on the game other than "Hjallti sucks"?

[Claus]

mod:

You should (gently) prod poppinpuffing as well, she said her internet was fixed already two days ago. Unless the zeds came in and bashed the generator in her safehouse.

[pulsewidth]

Pulsewidth: SirTornado Posted a whole 3 times in D1, then asks to be replaced. I hate things like this. Was he lurking, or was he really unable to participate the whole time? D2: I don't like how he FOSes me for voting Hjallti after he himself Mega foses him (obviously ) but his line of thought is not completely bad. Then he starts playing Watson to Albert, and says that's because how he plays when he is uncertain. PW, now that you've voted, are you certain enought to pull out opinions of your own? Who were you deciding between when you said you had to "make a decision"?

I can't say for sure what SirTornado was doing, but given the fact that he was replaced, I'd have to guess that he didn't have time for this game. As for his other actions, I don't know what you want me to say. I mean, I'm not a mindreader, so I don't know why he did those things. Do you want me to speculate?

As for my decision, I was debating whether or not to vote for camisade. I was pleased with Hjallti's response to my criticisms, so I was looking elsewhere. ABR posted a good case against camisade, but I like to hear responses first before I make votes, because sometimes scum slip up or don't defend themselves very well. After camisade's response, well, still not sure. I'm gonna have to do reread and maybe something will stand out. Zodiac then comes out and does something blatantly scummy. There is a possibility that Zodiac is just a townie playing badly, but I need a better explanation from her before I remove my vote.

[Claus]

Don't worry, Pulsewidth. I don't want you to mindread SirTornado. I just want the remind myself, and the rest of the players, to analyse the both of you together.

On the other hand, the "he was unable to play the whole time" hyphotesis do not really hold - at least not for the majority of D1. ST himself said that he didn't contribute because "nothing was happening", as opposed to "I can't keep up".

Anyway, thanks for the insight. Makes sense.