Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[Nelly632]

WIFOM = Wine In Front Of Me

refers to any circular logic especialy in a defense. i.e. in your argument there hammering him and then saying "would I stick my neck out like that it I were scum?" it leads back on itself, you say scum wouldn't take a risk like that but then wouldn't that be perfect cover if you are scum?

Ok I see now thank you...

Here's some questions for you, did you expect WIFOM to prove anything?

Actually I didnt know this had a name for it but actually yeah I hoped it would help me out by bringing that thought to peoples eyes but I wasnt aware it was something that was used so often that it had its own name... But on that same note nothing we say can prove anything, for example nothing you say can prove that you are not scum. But you will continue to attack me in hopes that no one will sit back and start to look your way.

[Malchonn]

In conclusion... I think everyone wants to know why I hammered Khelvaster without giving him a chance to ROLECLAIM...

The reason for this was simple... We had D.O close to a lynch and alot of people were convinced that he was scum.. But then he comes out and with one post and a roleclaim he turns the tide because no one wanted to vote for a claimed cop role... So then we all turn to Khelvaster and get him close to a lynch and then someone says "Wait and let him roleclaim"...

Now what i was thinking was, he comes out and claims to be the Vigilante (He double checks his PM and sees the mistake) so now he makes this claim and everyone says "Oh well I dont want to lynch a claimed Vigilante role on day one" so then we go back to square one and lets say we all jumped on Vampy and then he got close to a lynch and then he claimed to be the Doc and we all stoep back and say "I dont want to lynch a claimed doc role on the first day"...

You see what I am saying, we had no real way of knowing if someone is telling the truth so I took it upon myself to hammer him...

You do realise you just contradicted yourself, right? Not only that but you basically just said that you believed Khev was town and hammered him before he could RC because there was no way to be sure if he was telling the truth, but that you believe DO's RC. Sooo...you just killed the Vig because why? You didn't want the day to go on longer? You didn't want to find out what his RC was before you hammered? There's just no possible explanation you can give for this, none. And trying to defend it makes it worse. You should have just said 'oops'.

Can you explain your hammer vote? Can you explain your explanation for your hammer vote?

2)I believe I explained this already. What about this was confusing to you because I thought it was rather clear.

The confusing part to me, about your reason, is when you mentioned D.O was getting close to being voted, then he role claimed then we changed direction; so when was at -6 Khel you decided not to let him role claim so we wouldn't change targets? So you took it upon yourself to sacrifice Khel so that others couldn't role claim to get out of trouble, whether fake role claims or not? I guess I can kind of see where you’re coming from; I could never justify that because the role claims could always be false. Just sounds more n00bish than WIFOM.

Question for all with votes or thinking about votes on Nelly

, Why you think Nelly's actions were more Scummy than N00b?

Flea said:

1. I never said it wasn't a gut feeling. I said that a gut feeling was a lousy reason to the single people out with HoSes which try to make out that you suspect them more than anyone else.
2. And you are jumping in defense of your ridiculous claims.
3. Scumhunt please, Vote: Nelly

Well, wouldn't you defend yourself? I see how his reasons are very strange but being defensive and disagreeing with you doesn’t really warrant a vote does it?

Hjallti said:

vote: Nelly632 I can life with putting him on lynch minus 2

Please put a little more thought into your reason. A single one-line bandwagon vote doesn't look very good to me. You’re not instilling me with a true town nature.

FoS Hjallti

[somestrangeflea]

Flea - Tossing out the HOS on him and making up a lame excuse like GUT feeling was my way of getting a read on him... Very Defensive... Thus far the people who have gotten defensive (Khelvaster & D.O) are townie (I will explain the D.O thing in a minute) so instead of sitting back and not drawing alot of attention to himself he stood up and defended himself which gave me a good read on him and I dont think he is scum ONCE AGAIN I DONT THINK!

This makes sense, but that doesn't change that the actual attack itself was still baseless, and those types of attacks for gaining information are only really suitable for day 1, IMHO.
However, I'm tempted to believe you, so I'm going to

Unvote

.

ISGMEOY

though...

Is it possible to have a Doctor that when he protects he roleblocks the person?

Yes, a Paranoid Doc. Normally the P. Doc both protects and roleblocks, but is told he is a normal Doc.

The reason for this was simple... We had D.O close to a lynch and alot of people were convinced that he was scum.. But then he comes out and with one post and a roleclaim he turns the tide because no one wanted to vote for a claimed cop role... So then we all turn to Khelvaster and get him close to a lynch and then someone says "Wait and let him roleclaim"...

Now what i was thinking was, he comes out and claims to be the Vigilante (He double checks his PM and sees the mistake) so now he makes this claim and everyone says "Oh well I dont want to lynch a claimed Vigilante role on day one" so then we go back to square one and lets say we all jumped on Vampy and then he got close to a lynch and then he claimed to be the Doc and we all stoep back and say "I dont want to lynch a claimed doc role on the first day"...

You see what I am saying, we had no real way of knowing if someone is telling the truth so I took it upon myself to hammer him...

I see. I don't think that that's particularly good reasoning. I honestly think that a never-ending chain of claiming wouldn't really have been feasible.

On that same note if I was scum why in the hell would I stick my ass out there and hammer someone! Knowing that this would put my name on the tip of everyones tongue on day two!

Here's one. If you figured that hammering quickly was "sticking your ass out there", why is it that you came into Day2 guns blazing points FoSes and HoSes everywhere, which could be considered equally "ass sticky outy"? If you feel you drew attention to yourself end of Day 1, why did you draw more attention to yourself start of day 2?

I will give you a Role Claim right now so incase someone wants to hammer me they can do so with no hesitation (if the time comes ofcourse)…

PLAIN VANILLA TOWNIE… Nothing special going on in my part of town…

This isn't a claim. It's pointless to claim townie since EVERYONE is claiming townie. Scum claim townie, townies claim townie, the only ones that don't are power roles and they wouldn't claim anything till they have to.

Well hang on, if Vanilla Townie isn't a roleclaim, what would you expect Vanilla Townies to do? Lie?

FoS: Muerrto

Well, wouldn't you defend yourself? I see how his reasons are very strange but being defensive and disagreeing with you doesn’t really warrant a vote does it?

I did defend myself, but like I said earlier, baseless votes to draw out suspicion are only really Day1 tactics, in that they look really scummy if you do them later.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

1st Vote Count of Day 2

Muerrto - 1 (Nelly632)
Nelly632 - 2 (vampyrusddg, Muerrto)

Not Voting:

- 7 (death_omen, Hjallti, Malchonn, Plessiez, SeraphicMirth, somestrangeflea, VampaneseHunter)

6 to Lynch

Sorry folks about the delay, but I'm finishing teaching a summer school class and I've got final exams to grade. I'll be back in full swing with the game starting Monday.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

There were quite a few questions in there. Did you bother to read it?

Here's some questions for you, did you expect WIFOM to prove anything?

Can you explain your hammer vote? Can you explain your explanation for your hammer vote?

Are you playing anymore? Have you given up?

There ya go. Questions.

1) WIFOM, not sure what this means?

Nelly (and anyone else), check the Wiki for common terms, game theory, etc.:

MafiaScum Wiki

[VampanezeHunter]

I'm baack! And don't you wish I wasn't! Just re-reading! I'm glad you just made only a few more pages than my last post!

[Muerrto]

Actually I didnt know this had a name for it but actually yeah I hoped it would help me out by bringing that thought to peoples eyes but I wasnt aware it was something that was used so often that it had its own name... But on that same note nothing we say can prove anything, for example nothing you say can prove that you are not scum. But you will continue to attack me in hopes that no one will sit back and start to look your way.

Ok. So basically because you know your role we're supposed to assume you've got the town's interest at heart?

Step back, look at yourself from everyone else's point of view. You're doing the same thing Khel did that he was blasted for, being too damn sure of yourself.

Pretend there's a chance you could be wrong and try again.

I still want a better explanation for the hammer. Saying 'I hammered so he couldn't RC' is exactly the opposite of what I want to hear and makes NO sense EVER as town.

[Muerrto]

I will give you a Role Claim right now so incase someone wants to hammer me they can do so with no hesitation (if the time comes ofcourse)…

PLAIN VANILLA TOWNIE… Nothing special going on in my part of town…

This isn't a claim. It's pointless to claim townie since EVERYONE is claiming townie. Scum claim townie, townies claim townie, the only ones that don't are power roles and they wouldn't claim anything till they have to.

Well hang on, if Vanilla Townie isn't a roleclaim, what would you expect Vanilla Townies to do? Lie? FoS: Muerrto

No one asked him to lie. But claiming townie is what's called a null claim. Why? Because it means nothing. It could mean he's scum and being safe by claiming vanilla or he's actually vanilla. But since he's the only one who knows his role, how do you know which one he is? That's why claiming townie makes no sense since it means nothing.

Now if he's at -1 and we're calling for a RC then yeah, claim it. Claiming it early...and twice now, makes it sound like he's trying to convince people of it. And of course there's no possible way to convince anyone of your role.

[VampanezeHunter]

Ok I have read through and find Nelly Scummiest I will tell you why later but first What is a Vigilante?


Reasons for suspecting Nelly
1) Hammering without letting Khelv RC
2) Pretty much letting himself be lynched without a fight. I mean if you died doing something for the town like somehow showing the rest of us townies who the scum were then what you're doing is fine but otherwise could you possibly defend yourself a bit more.( I hope you understand me)


Although I find Nelly scummy I really am tired and can't be bothered to vote yet! BTW- I have a nice tan now!

[somestrangeflea]

The vigilante is a killer on the town side. Depending on the variation, they may be able to kill every night, or be limited to a certain number of times during the game.

It wasn't mentioned that Khelvaster was limited to a certain number of shots, so I think its safe to assume that he could kill every night, should he have chosen to do so.

[VampanezeHunter]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Damn it! I knew we shouldn't have lynched him!

[SeraphicMirth]

Hey I'm not voting you! I think if you are town then we should probably lynch Khev! I only said PROBABLY! Note that!

Why did you want us all to note that so much?


Your latest post seems way over the top, BTW. Are you usually this outraged at a mislynch? I mean, yeah, definitely a bad thing but...seriously? hmm.

[VampanezeHunter]

Answers
1) Because in other games I've played in people vote me because I thought we should lynch someone!

2) No not really, I was joking by going way over the top, I usually say oh fiddlesticks and carry on the game but as this is my first Mini normal I kepp finding out new roles!

[SeraphicMirth]

D_O, if you don't have any results tomorrow, you're a dead man.

So, this question was already posed to you and you didn't answer it (I don't think). I have the same question - now that he got back a fail, do you still stand by what you said? What do you think of D_O as he stands today? He doesn't have any results, so ...?

I was also tracking votes and I must point out that vampy and muerrto seem to stay on the same person together a lot.. on vote counts 4-9 they were on D_O and then on 10-end of the day on Khel..Khel was town, and I am going to assume that d_o is as well. On the 1st count of this day, they are yet again together. It just seemed a little like a voting block to me.

If he would have RC'd Vig I totally would have taken my vote down.

This makes me wanna say "well, duh" ..I mean, wouldn't most everyone do that?

[somestrangeflea]

D_O, if you don't have any results tomorrow, you're a dead man.

So, this question was already posed to you and you didn't answer it (I don't think). I have the same question - now that he got back a fail, do you still stand by what you said? What do you think of D_O as he stands today? He doesn't have any results, so ...?

I misjudged D_O's character. I assumed (from what I'd seen so far), that if he didn't have any results he'd come out today panicky, and I would have went for his lynch if he had. But he came out straight today and actually began speculating why his results came back the way they did. So no, I take back what I said completely, simply because the way he claimed his lack of result has dramatically changed my opinion of him.

[Muerrto]

I was also tracking votes and I must point out that vampy and muerrto seem to stay on the same person together a lot.. on vote counts 4-9 they were on D_O and then on 10-end of the day on Khel..Khel was town, and I am going to assume that d_o is as well. On the 1st count of this day, they are yet again together. It just seemed a little like a voting block to me.

Naw. Me and Vamp play very similar and know each other from another site. If you scan back you'll see I mentioned that. I also said I play very similar to Pless but Pless seems to be ultra conservative in his voting. I'm not throwing mine around, but I'm not that conservative.


My vote won't leave Nelly till I find out what was up with the hammer. I mean, for 3 days we had to watch a locked thread because he hammered before Khel RC'ed. I was like WTF happened.


Anyone who DOESN'T at least somewhat suspect Nelly after that hammer and his subsequent explanation gets my FoS. Definitely. Not saying you have to vote for him but how can you possibly justify the hammer and his explanation that he didn't want an RC?

Also, taking DO's word he was blocked is just like saying 'we believe you're cop and you don't have to show any proof for it'. That's bad too. Everyone should also somewhat suspect DO since he claimed, which is what made everyone shift to Khel and now he's got nothing.


You guys take people's word for it a bit much. This is mafia, people lie. You can't take everything at face value. You're giving people a free ride which is how scum slips by(not you Seraph, you in general).


Questions for everyone:

I'd like to hear everyone's seperate opinion of the cop RC, the block claim, the hammer, and the hammer explanation. These are the 4 worst points in the game so far IMO and they're being brushed off so I'd like everyone to re-examine them and let me know what they say to you specifically and how much you think is true and how much a lie.


To answer my own question, I thought the cop RC was panicked. But I'm not lynching a claimed role on day 1. The block claim is possible, though unlikely. We've got 12 people, the chances of a paranoid doc are pretty slim in this size game.


I thought the hammer was noob. I was like WTF, no RC? Was he tired of the game? Did he want the day to end? What happened? But his explanation is worse and turns noob to scum. The fact that he REALISED he was hammering without an RC and he specifically did it so that Khel COULDN'T claim is bad. Very. Not noob bad, scum bad. Possibly he thought DO had slipped by and he didn't want Khel to do the same? Not sure. But his explanation is crap and I've said as such.


Here's Nelly's post where he voted Khel:

By the way I got the impression that it was scummy in your eyes for me to go on a big rant about Khelv and not vote for him.. If that was the case I can actually say that I was kind of fearful that voting for him right off the back without letting him say some things that might change my mind would be considered scummy. Either way I am casting my vote in this post...

Vote: Khelvaster

So at this point you want Khel to be able to speak just in case he's not scum.

A gut feeling is not enough to vote someone... But a GUT feeling is enough in my mind to Unvote someone...

Unvote: Khelvaster

Vote: Death Omen

This is Omen's 4th vote and around the time everyone's decided he's guilty and needs to be tested. DO then RC's and Nelly responds to DO's RC but DOES NOT unvote. He doesn't unvote till quite a bit later when he hammers Khel.

I believe that Malchonn is corect and that Khelvaster is at L-1. I suggest that no one hammer until we can discuss this cop claim further.

I think we have discused it long enough, he has made a RC and no one including myself is willing to take a chance on day one. KL is the only person who has came close to lynching and is scummy in everyones eyes (Including mine with the exception of my gut feeling).

Hammering on my part would seem odd if I hadn't cast my vote for Khelv already and just recently changed it... I can honestly say that this gut feeling is still with me but like everyone has said "Lynching a claimed cop role is a bad move on day one" so be relatively new to this game I will go with the census and agree that D.O has saved his butt with a claim to be the cop...

Unvote: Death Omen

Vote: Kehlvaster

After 20 days and 14 pages of post I can say that I am ready to end day one and move on (Even though I wasn’t here since day one)...

So if you believed DO's cop claim, why did you leave your vote on? Then even though you believed(supposedly) DO's cop claim you unvote him and hammer Khel in the same post before HE can RC? I still need a better explanation for that.

I also need(after my re-read) and explanation for why you didn't unvote DO in the same post that you claimed you believed him. There's some questions for you.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: This was supposed to be quoted in my last message. This is right after DO's claim where Nelly backed up DO's claim, said it put doubt in his mind etc., but didn't unvote.

Good move Death Omen...

My only question is why would you Role Claim when you have only 4 votes on yourself? You make it seem like we all have worn you down and the truth is that nothing 24 has really changed in the last 24 hours besides me changing my vote your way.

I honestl dont know how to read this role claim...

1) If you are in fact the cop then lynching you would put us deep in hot water..

2) If you are not then you can be trying to draw the real cop out of the water...

example: Khelvster says "Now I know you are scum because I am the cop"

Then you get lynched anyways but now the other Mafia member knows who the cop is and then he ends up dead...

It is interesting to see how everyone else reacts to this and you all play thi game how you want to but my suggestion is IF YOU ARE THE COP and D.O is not DONT SAY ANYTHING...

But good play D.O I am sure you will have people who are on the fence with you rethinking their vote... I know that I wasnt sure and now you put more doubt into my mind...

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok well my opinion on the RC by d_o is that I must believe him for now, there hasn't been another investigative role that has come forward --and, as I stated before, I don't think they should if they exist because I think we can go forth with this game without them RCing...I don't know if the tradeoff of getting one scum vs. a cop counterclaiming and becoming roleblocked cop/killed cop is worth it. I just don't know. I mean..on the other hand, it is worth it if it comes down to scum getting away vs. a lynched townie.

I also think that if there was a real cop..I would hope that they are strongly trying to build a case against D_O and I haven't really seen much of that since he RC'ed either. So, that just gives me more reason to believe that d_o is telling the truth and that the block claim is true as well..I don't see why there is such a slim chance that happened. It definitely causes town to be confused about his claim of cop. Couldn't one of the mafia roles be a role blocker?

Now, on Nelly's hammer.. I think it was definitely a bad move and not letting Khel defend himself before that came down. However, Khel didn't really indicate (and as shown in his "bah!" post) that he had a role to claim before it came down. It'd be different if he posted and he was like "hey! I'm going to RC" and then the hammer came down from Nelly, but Khel didn't realize. I mean, someone has to be the hammer at some point and when its a mislynch, that hammer is NOT always going to be scum. In fact, I would guess that more than not, it wouldn't be scum.
So, that's kind of why I'm not looking too hard at Nelly. However..I do think the #5 and #6 votes might be worth looking at. I don't know who they are off the top of my head right now.

[Nelly632]

Just to be clear Muerrto I dont have to explain myself any furthur to you... I have already explained why I hammered Khelvaster and you have made it clear that you understand what I said but it is not good enough for you... Well vote for me then... Oh wait you have!

I am not going back and asking you to explain every vote you made and everytime you kept a vote on with doubt in your mind so dont ask me and expect a answer...

People are coming on here and calling me a noob (Not a big fan of being called that but being new to this game I cant dispute it) and basically keeping a eye on me but easing up and looking else where but like I said you continue to turn your attention to me and try to bandwagon me... Thats a scum move if I have ever seen one...

Look at me I simply said why I was voting for you and then cast my vote and left it at that...

You come out here and continue to attack me in hopes that I will explode and you can point your finger futhur and then come back afterwards (If you get me lynched) and say that it was my own fault because I am a noob and I talked myself into a grave...

I am done answering your questions Sir... You need to sit back and realize that this is a game and we all cant get bent out of shape over a game!

[Muerrto]

I also think that if there was a real cop..I would hope that they are strongly trying to build a case against D_O and I haven't really seen much of that since he RC'ed either. So, that just gives me more reason to believe that d_o is telling the truth and that the block claim is true as well..I don't see why there is such a slim chance that happened. It definitely causes town to be confused about his claim of cop. Couldn't one of the mafia roles be a role blocker?

Yeah. My question was basically to find who DID if anyone have a case against DO. No one yet so I agree with you on the RC. And yes mafia could've blocked him I'm sure. Nice sleuthing, that's exactly what I was aiming at.

Now, on Nelly's hammer.. I think it was definitely a bad move and not letting Khel defend himself before that came down. However, Khel didn't really indicate (and as shown in his "bah!" post) that he had a role to claim before it came down. It'd be different if he posted and he was like "hey! I'm going to RC" and then the hammer came down from Nelly, but Khel didn't realize. I mean, someone has to be the hammer at some point and when its a mislynch, that hammer is NOT always going to be scum. In fact, I would guess that more than not, it wouldn't be scum.

Now here we disagree. It's not like Khel ever had a chance to say 'hey I'm gonna RC'. His 6th vote came at 8:35 am eastern and he was hammered at 2:31 pm eastern on the same day. Nelly had his vote on DO until soon after the 6th vote where he just all of a sudden hammered. Khel didn't have a chance to post and RC. The problem is you're using Khel's 'Bah' post as reason for the lack of an RC but remember that no one KNEW that Khel had screwed up his roles and therefore that point is moot. Nelly didn't know Khel would've just claimed townie.

Now if Khel HAD claimed vanilla and we lynched him(which most likely would've happened) then that'd be fine. But hammering a mere 6 hours after the 6th vote is placed is definitely what I'd call a speed hammer, an unjustified speed hammer. The fact that Khel was a major power role doesn't help but that point is also moot because even if Nelly were scum he wouldn't know that.

My point with this question was to find out how much leeway people are giving this action. IMO you're possibly backing off an extremely bad move a tad too much. The fact that his explanation was to be frank, a good scum reason for a hammer(to keep from RC'ing?), makes it even worse.

Had Nelly's first post said 'Oh crap sorry guys.' Then I could possibly look at it differently but he came out saying who was suspicious after he had done the scummiest thing in the game so far without even bothering to give an explanation until I hounded him for it. Does that not bother you in the least? Wouldn't the normal townie reaction be 'Crap, I screwed up'? Does he seem remorseful or like he feels he made a mistake or did anything wrong? Can you guage his reactions and his current 'screw this' attitude and say you're pretty sure it was a noob mistake?


Not trying to convince you, that's not my job. Just trying to get you to make sure you look at it from all angles and ignore extra information that wasn't there that seems to be influencing your thinking.

Wouldn't mind an answer to those questions I posed tho.

[Muerrto]

You need to sit back and realize that this is a game and we all cant get bent out of shape over a game!

Sigh. There's one of these in every game. Especially new players. Point out anything I said that's a personal attack please. Point out where I took anything outside the game and brought it in. Point out where I insulted you. If you're not a noob and the hammer wasn't a noob mistake then it was a scum move. Period.

Noob isn't an insult and the sooner people get that the better we'll all be. Noob means you're a newbie. You are new to the game. And you are. It's not insult it's a statement of fact. In a newbie game I'd be more forgiving but this isn't a newbie game.

No where did I become bent out of shape. Read back and see what I called my MO, my playstyle. Witness it.

You messed up. Your explanation was junk and I'm pursuing you for it. I'm not simply saying 'screw it I give up' like you. Am I pursuing only you? Not at all. In fact my last post referenced both you and DO because between the 2 of you I see the 4 most critical points in the game. So I'm asking EVERYONE what they think of those 4 points. If you're taking it personal, sorry.

I'd link a game where I took a hell of a lot longer beating than you have from me(but it's ongoing). I can link a game where I GAVE a hell of a lot longer beating to someone else. If you take these last what, 2 pages?, personal then you need to re-evaluate what you're playing mafia for and how seriously you take it.

I haven't even attacked you, I've asked for explanations. Your answer has been 'FU'. That's just bad play.

[Muerrto]

Just to be clear Muerrto I dont have to explain myself any furthur to you... I have already explained why I hammered Khelvaster and you have made it clear that you understand what I said but it is not good enough for you... Well vote for me then... Oh wait you have!

I am not going back and asking you to explain every vote you made and everytime you kept a vote on with doubt in your mind so dont ask me and expect a answer...

As for this. IMO you do owe an explanation. Why? Welcome to mafia. That's kind of how the game is played. If you can't explain your actions then why did you take them? Why did me mentioning you keeping your vote on DO drive this hateful post of you? Alot of anger in last few posts man. Didn't you just mention something about this being a game?

You told me to post questions and now say you're not answering them? Oh so wait, you mean ANYONE ELSE can post questions and you'll answer them but since you're now 100% convinced I'm scum(sound familiar?) that you're done defending yourself against me and you're refusing to answer any of MY questions. Nice.


Want some quotes from you directed at Khel?

I am about 90 percent convinced that he is scum but NEVER 100 percent until the death has occurred and the role is revealed… I would never be so bold as to state that I am 100 percent sure unless I am a cop and even then I would be afraid of being the insane cop…

In your eyes SIR and that is the problem you are pointing fingers at people who do not see your point of view and that is why I asccuse you of believing you are better at this then the rest of us because you are already convinced of the guilty parties while the rest of us keep a open mind.

So did you wanna take a deep breath, step back, and try again or keep your screw you attitude? Are you not doing the same thing Khel was doing that you blasted him for?

[SeraphicMirth]

The problem is you're using Khel's 'Bah' post as reason for the lack of an RC but remember that no one KNEW that Khel had screwed up his roles and therefore that point is moot. Nelly didn't know Khel would've just claimed townie.

That's not really what I was saying either, though. I guess all I was saying was that there probably wouldn't have been a RC at all since Khel didn't realize he had a role to claim. I mean..yeah I guess you can call vanilla town a role claim but eh.

Had Nelly's first post said 'Oh crap sorry guys.' Then I could possibly look at it differently but he came out saying who was suspicious after he had done the scummiest thing in the game so far without even bothering to give an explanation until I hounded him for it. Does that not bother you in the least? Wouldn't the normal townie reaction be 'Crap, I screwed up'? Does he seem remorseful or like he feels he made a mistake or did anything wrong? Can you guage his reactions and his current 'screw this' attitude and say you're pretty sure it was a noob mistake?

I think his "screw this" attitude sounds like frustrated town to me, but I need to re-read all his posts and your posts again and see if he's contradicting himself at all. From my first reads as they were posted, I feel like he's been pretty straightforward about his reasons and has stuck to that.

Now, as far as not saying it was a mistake..yes, that's a little fishy. but if he's just frustrated town, like I think at this point, then I can see someone getting frustrated and being like "I told you my reason and it made sense to me at the time" which is what I feel like he's saying. Again, I need to re-read more critically.

One thing I thought was off from him that he said was that he was actually trying to prevent a possible RC from Khel. But, again, in the context he said it..it seemed like he was town to me cuz it seemed he was honestly explaining why he did it and i don't think scum would have used that explanation. I mean, DUH, it sounds bad that you would want to prevent a pro-town RC..so why would scum say that? I dunno. That's why I'm hesitating and trying to look elsewhere. There's more than one scum in the game and we haven't lynched any..so they're out there. but..I guess we can't be 100% sure with anyone anyway. blargh. I dunno.

I'll re-read and get back to this. I'd like to hear more from other players as well..what they think about it. I think your 4 questions to everyone are good. [/quote]

[SeraphicMirth]

No where did I become bent out of shape. Read back and see what I called my MO, my playstyle. Witness it.

Have you ever personally led a mislynch as town because of your MO? I just wonder about it. It has its good points definitely for sure, but it also can cause town to close up and be frustrated. I re-read a bit and I really think that's what's going on with you and Nelly.

[Muerrto]

No where did I become bent out of shape. Read back and see what I called my MO, my playstyle. Witness it.

Have you ever personally led a mislynch as town because of your MO? I just wonder about it. It has its good points definitely for sure, but it also can cause town to close up and be frustrated. I re-read a bit and I really think that's what's going on with you and Nelly.

Oh definitely. Check out what I said to Pless. The problem with the technique is that some players crack even when they're town. But you can tell the difference between the 'town crack' and the 'scum crack' usually. I use it to spark discussion. No one talks until they're called out and then they get defensive, sometimes angry, sometimes insulting, etc.

I haven't decided which side Nelly's on yet because he simply refuses to acknowledge I'm playing. That's bad for the town no matter what.


But I'm also not calling for his head like he thinks I am. He's got 3 votes and he's acting like I'm bandwagoning him. Heck he had a FOURTH vote before I said for people to slow down. Bandwagon?