Open 29 - C9+2 (~GAME OVER~) before 470

[Rishi]

Yep sure thing Rishi. I tried to address everything that he mentioned in his previous post is there anything else you want me to address?

Nah, you're good for now. Waiting to hear from Guardian.

[Guardian]

vote: Crub

.

Rishi, what do you want from me? I threatened to vote for Crub, and he voted me before we had the chance to discuss things. If he is town, he would have been in my position, wanting to talk things out in case you were scum.

Does him voting for me immediately after I present the results of my re-read (him=scum) strike you as town play??

It reeks of OMGUS scum to me.


The case on me is basically:

"His predecessor didn't really care much and had a bad voting record. Oh, and he didn't want to claim first."

I thought I was fair in claiming third (and would have claimed 0th if I knew it would mean coming close to losing the game ), and Rishi, my and your voting record is exactly the same except for day 1 where AmeliaLi didn't do anything....

Is there anything I am missing in that? Seriously, I don't get how you are 80% sure or whatever, I see the case on Crub as being about as strong as or even more strong than the case on me.



I did the re-read I promised, I found scum between you and Crub when the difference between you two was nigh indiscernible.... What more do you want from me?

Sidenote: I'd

really

like to get a town win at LYLO when I've found scum for once -- this would be 0/4 wins when I've found scum at LYLO if Crub isn't lynched .


Rishi, what do you want from me? Make the case against Crub clearer? I can do that, I think. Really, I don't think it is that much of a stretch to say that AmerliaLi was uninterested townie and Crub was scum.

Rishi, I am waiting on you for some direction

, otherwise I will address Crub's points and try and make a clearer case on him?


Also, Rishi, I am V/LA Wed-Sunday -- would it really be that much of a pain to wait until midweek next week? I don't want you to make the wrong decision here... If not, I understand, and will try and get the two things I mentioned above out tonight/tomorrow, but Crub

is

scum.

[Guardian]

ebwop: definitely try to get it up tomorrow, not possible tonight.

Again, Rishi, I implore you to not vote hastily here.

[Rishi]

Your post where you built the case on Crub was a very long list. It's difficult to see what your main points were. What I would like is for you to summarize what you said in that post in a shorter, most distilled format. Also, I would prefer if you drop the appeals to emotion. Just stick to the facts and logic.

As for the case against you Guardian. The voting record is just what caught my eye.

My main suspicions on you (just to summarize):

1) Yes, the voting record. That's just what caught my eye. That's not super-serious. We all have a pretty bad voting record at this point.

2) You were playing before you received your role PM. You never really addressed this, but this is actually a HUGE point for me. You were very sincere when you said, "I can't see how AmeliaLi is scum" to the point where I actually believed you. Then, when you admitted you were lying later, I figured out that you could be absolutely believable even when you were giving us bald-faced lies. It led me not to believe a single thing you said.

3) It's not the fact that you actually went third in the claim, but the fact that you wanted to go last and kept insisting on it. And the fact that you can't see why this is suspicious. The stupidity defense doesn't work. I actually think you're a pretty good player and I can't see how a good player wouldn't see this, unless he was lying.

4) The ass-covering post in twilight after I dropped the hammer on YogurtBandit. First, you come down on YogurtBandit pretty hard, making it clear he was going to be lynched. You put him at Lynch -1. I drop the hammer. You immediately jump in and say, "Oh, that might have been bad" which serves no purpose unless you want to plant the seeds of suspicion on me later. The lynch already happened. You can't prevent it. And the only way that you would have already known the results of the lynch? You were Mafia.

5) You asked Crub to claim doctor when it was fairly pointless. I think this fairly strongly implies that you felt there was a doctor in the game. You must have suspected that one of us was the doctor and that we'd protect each other. That's why I think you killed somestrangeflea, because you knew there was no way he'd be protected.

6) The fact that you CONSTANTLY feel the need to repeat that you are a townie. You mention it in practically every post. We already know that you are claiming to be a townie. Why do you feel the need to repeat it unless you're trying to convince us it is true? Or maybe you're trying to convince yourself?

7) The fact that you constantly cover up your arguments with emotion. You realize that the arguments are not that strong, so you resort to begging. And I'll tell you what - I find it really distracting. Even when Crub criticized you for it, you continue to do it.

8) Even in this last post, you say, "I see the case on Crub as being about as strong as or even more strong than the case on me." WTF?! I mean, of course scum would say that! One of you is scum. Your opinions don't matter any more. OBVIOUSLY, Crub will say that you're more suspicious and you'll say that Crub is more suspicious. If you really wanted to try to convince me at this point, you would have said, "Well, I know that Crub looks less suspicious than I do... but blah, blah, blah." This is another example of how you fill your posts with irrelevant arguments to make it SEEM like you are saying a lot, when you're really saying nothing.

You can't just appeal to emotion without any evidence behind it. I don't want your subjective opinion or begging, I WANT THE FACTS in the clear and concise format.

I might have missed some major point, but I'll let Crub fill in any gaps. That's what's at the front of my mind.

Tuesday (a week from today) is the day I leave for Gen Con. I'll drop the hammer on one of you then. Sound fair? This has been a short game, so I don't want to drag out this endgame any longer than necessary.

[Guardian]

Your post where you built the case on Crub was a very long list. It's difficult to see what your main points were. What I would like is for you to summarize what you said in that post in a shorter, most distilled format.

Makes sense, will do.

Also, I would prefer if you drop the appeals to emotion. Just stick to the facts and logic.

This is hard for me to do, as town especially, but I'll try.

1) Yes, the voting record. That's just what caught my eye. That's not super-serious. We all have a pretty bad voting record at this point.

Crub and me/AmeliaLi actually have an almost exact opposite voting record -- Crub has voted almost perfectly, while I was on both mislynches and not on the lynch of scum.

2) You were playing before you received your role PM. You never really addressed this, but this is actually a HUGE point for me. You were very sincere when you said, "I can't see how AmeliaLi is scum" to the point where I actually believed you. Then, when you admitted you were lying later, I figured out that you could be absolutely believable even when you were giving us bald-faced lies. It led me not to believe a single thing you said.

I can play well as scum, that is true, I am not going to refute that. I can lie somewhat convincingly as scum, I think.

That doesn't change the fact that I am town -- this is really a null-tell. Just because I have the

capability

of lying does not meant that I am lying here.

Also, what I have

have

addressed, and what has not been refuted (all Crub did was yell "WIFOM") is that I would have absolutely

no reason

to admit to lying as scum. Lynch all Liars is (albeit a silly one imo) a popular metagame policy -- and seeing as you'd never have suspected that I was lying, I had no reason as scum to let you know that I had been lying.

3) It's not the fact that you actually went third in the claim, but the fact that you wanted to go last and kept insisting on it. And the fact that you can't see why this is suspicious. The stupidity defense doesn't work. I actually think you're a pretty good player and I can't see how a good player wouldn't see this, unless he was lying.

Look -- from my perspective, everyone should want badly to go last whenever there is a mass claim. It only helps your team, whatever that team may be. I

don't

think wanting to go last is a scum-tell, especially considering I wasn't claiming a power role and I haven't.

If I begged to go last and then claimed cop, that might be suspicious. But I wanted to go last so people might

think

I would claim cop, but I claimed town. I'm not playing dumb here, and I'm not going to agree with you just to appease you -- I really don't think it is scummy to want to go near the end. Make sense?

4) The ass-covering post in twilight after I dropped the hammer on YogurtBandit. First, you come down on YogurtBandit pretty hard, making it clear he was going to be lynched. You put him at Lynch -1. I drop the hammer. You immediately jump in and say, "Oh, that might have been bad" which serves no purpose unless you want to plant the seeds of suspicion on me later. The lynch already happened. You can't prevent it. And the only way that you would have already known the results of the lynch? You were Mafia.

Your hammer was very quick. Damn right I was planting seeds of suspicion -- I thought your ~2 hour hammer was suspicious. How did I "make it clear he was going to be lynched"? I have only one vote. I used it -- you decided to hammer. I thought that that might have been too quick, that maybe YB would

finally

contribute. I didn't know what the result would be, and I was hoping to probe you and see what

your

thoughts were.

5) You asked Crub to claim doctor when it was fairly pointless. I think this fairly strongly implies that you felt there was a doctor in the game. You must have suspected that one of us was the doctor and that we'd protect each other. That's why I think you killed somestrangeflea, because you knew there was no way he'd be protected.

I asked Crub if he was a doctor because I would expect a doctor to play differently -- a doctor

should

play differently than a townie. That doesn't imply at all that I expected there to be a doctor, or whatnot -- Crub had just

never

definitively claimed, and I wanted him to before I did my re-read.

6) The fact that you CONSTANTLY feel the need to repeat that you are a townie. You mention it in practically every post. We already know that you are claiming to be a townie. Why do you feel the need to repeat it unless you're trying to convince us it is true? Or maybe you're trying to convince yourself?

I do this as town. When I am near lynch I appeal to emotion. If you doubt me, read the last few pages of 24 mafia. I'll try not to, but when I am close to lynch, especially when I am in fact town, I start yelling at people not to lynch me because I am town...

7) The fact that you constantly cover up your arguments with emotion. You realize that the arguments are not that strong, so you resort to begging. And I'll tell you what - I find it really distracting. Even when Crub criticized you for it, you continue to do it.

Again, I'll try to stop. It's just me. In this game, I think the arguments are pretty strong, so I'll especially try and stop so they shine through.

8) Even in this last post, you say, "I see the case on Crub as being about as strong as or even more strong than the case on me." WTF?! I mean, of course scum would say that! One of you is scum. Your opinions don't matter any more. OBVIOUSLY, Crub will say that you're more suspicious and you'll say that Crub is more suspicious. If you really wanted to try to convince me at this point, you would have said, "Well, I know that Crub looks less suspicious than I do... but blah, blah, blah." This is another example of how you fill your posts with irrelevant arguments to make it SEEM like you are saying a lot, when you're really saying nothing.

I say that because you said you are like 80% favoring a me-lynch right now. I don't think that is a reasonable stance. I obviously "really want to convince you" regardless of my alignment -- I said that because really, when you look at the facts I'll present, I think Crub does not at all look 80/20 less likely to be scum instead me.

You can't just appeal to emotion without any evidence behind it. I don't want your subjective opinion or begging, I WANT THE FACTS in the clear and concise format.

Will try :\.

Tuesday (a week from today) is the day I leave for Gen Con. I'll drop the hammer on one of you then. Sound fair? This has been a short game, so I don't want to drag out this endgame any longer than necessary.

I guess... but I will be away with limited access Wednesday - Monday. That doesn't exactly give a lot of time for back and forth.

[Rishi]

This was a good post, Guardian. You made a lot of good points and kept the emotional play to a minimum. This is what I want to see.

I am not going to respond to any attacks on my play. I would rather see Crub respond to your post, actually, because I think it would reveal a lot about his alignment.

[Guardian]

I am not going to respond to any attacks on my play.

You have no need to respond to any attacks on your play. Your alignment is not in question. The only further discussion about your play would be if you wanted advice or whatnot post-game.

However, while letting Crub go first is fine, I would like you to respond to my attacks on your

logic

. If I make a point and you still disagree with me, I'd like to know why.

I would rather see Crub respond to your post, actually, because I think it would reveal a lot about his alignment.

I question how much it will really reveal, but again him going first is fine.


My advice to you Rishi, is hammer when you are sure you are making the most informed decision you possibly could, whenever that time comes -- whether it is before, or after Tuesday.

I earnestly hope I can get my analysis on Crub out tonight, as I will be V/LA for almost a week afterwards. I anticipate being able to do so.

[Guardian]

First a response to Crub's vote-post, and then hopefully an analysis of Crub. I will attempt to demonstrate how he did little to respond to the substance of why I read him as scummy, and that his voting me so quickly was in and of itself scummy:

I cannot see another way out of this other than for us to vote each other and let Rishi decide. There is no major case against Rishi as we have both pointed out. There are a few minor points against him but nothing to make a convincing case out of.

I think that there was legitimate concern Rishi might have been scum. I found his quick hammer day 3 very suspicious, among other things, and I conceded at the end of my argument that there was at least something of a case against him. I wanted to discuss this with you, not have you vote me and hope for the best.

The points you made concerning my play on day 1. All I can say is that I voted Lateralus first because he put someone at L-1 first.

Voting Lateralus in and of itself wasn't scummy.

I changed my vote to HH to try and illicit some sort of response from him. Putting someone at L-1 on page 1 is something that can easily be committed by both newbie scum and newbie town (see lateralus), I wanted some more posts from HH, just so that we could get a better feel for whether he was town or scum.

This doesn't address much of why I think you are scum either.

You say I didn't post from L-2 to Lynch but that was because I wasn't around during the day on that saturday and the rest of the time I was sleeping it was a pretty short period (28 hours).

This too doesn't mean that you aren't scum -- in fact the very short time makes me think you are more likely to be scum. Why? Because you didn't have time to get off of a day one lynch wagon on your partner. I think it makes much more sense that you "accidentally" were on your partners lynch wagon than that you planned to stay there for the whole day. Pointing out this short time period helps my point, not hurts it.

Rishi I hope you are town, and you'll make the right choice.

You know he's town, and voting you is the right choice...

Guardian I'm sorry if you are town, but there is such a slim chance of Rishi being scum compared to you, I hope you'll understand.

vote: Guardian

You can say that with a straight face after a few posts back you try and discard all of my arguments as appeals to emotion?


Rishi, I think this is a strong indicator of Crub being scum -- he didn't want to discuss things with me, and he didn't have much real worry that you were scum.

When I first expressed serious intent to vote Crub, he voted me, and "left it in your hands". He did so because he realized he was going to have a hard time convincing me that you were scum, and an easier time of getting you to hammer me. His vote for me, in the post

immediately following

my posting the results of my re-read, is incredibly scummy to me, and I hope you see it that way too.

If he were town, he would be more worried about the possibility of you being scum, and he would have at least waited for me to respond to him about the case on him, and tried to get me to be less suspicious of him.

Instead, he took the "easy" way out and voted for me -- he made is so that my opinion no longer mattered, and he placed his hopes in that you would make the wrong decision and lynch me.

Looking at this objectively, Rishi, you've got to see how his LACK of suspicion for you and LACK of any attempt to convince me that I was wrong about him being scum is really scummy. He didn't even wait for me to address his response. He didn't wait to see how you took it. He straight up OMGUS voted me, and hoped you would make the wrong decision. I hope I am explaining this clearly and that you can see that.

[Guardian]

Posting in all threads: V/LA until Monday. Good luck without me.
---

I'd love to be able to do the pbpa on Crub tonight -- not sure that it is going to happen. Time just slipped away. I ask that, especially if I don't get the chance to make the case, that I not be hammered until I return. There is still like a 5% chance I'll get to it .

[Guardian]

I'm not even done packing, but I figured I would try this before I got to sleep. I don't think I am going to be able to justice to it, but I want to draw attention to a few things that really made me think Crub is scum.


Post 22 is classically scum. Crub votes for a townie, and FOS's scum. This is a time honored scum-tell for a reason -- Crub distances from HH and gains credit if a wagon on him builds but places his vote elsewhere, and if pressure grows on this new person, even if the person he FOS'd (HH) eventually gets lynched later in the game, the record will show that Crub FOS'd him, making Crub look good.

Crub said that he voted Lateralus first because he wagoned to -2 first. Firstly, -2 isn't that big a problem in C9, and is even less of a problem ins C9 -2. If two people hop on when someone is at lynch -2, it is pretty obvious both are scum. I think it was an overreaction by everyone, and Crub overreacting to his scum buddy doing something Crub thought might be scummy is telling. Secondly, Lateralus doing it first was a really weak reason to vote Lateralus first over Crub. As Crub alluded to later, HH looked more guilty -- Lateralus at least said it was random -- HH claimed to have a good reason for the vote, which was suspicious. In sum, in 22 Crub FOS'd scum and wagoned scum, and this is scummy for many, many reasons.


29 -- minor point, but calling someone opportunistic for a random vote is really, really, really stretching. Opportunism comes when you actually make a case, now when you make a random vote.


39 -- notice how Crub follows Ripley onto HH when pressure doesn't build on Lateralus... As I pointed out, Crub set this up before in 22.


62 -- Crub says there is a huge difference between random first vote and random -2 vote. Again I disagree -- but then, many people in the game "bought" that, so .


65 -- Crub is begging HH to come and defend himself, and urges that we not rush through day one -- while HH is the main focus of suspicion.


105 -- Crub again urges that we not rush -- while HH is at lynch -2. The blatant defense of HH is scummy.



I want to point out a post I missed at this time -- 119 by AmeliaLi. Her computer broke, and she managed to tell people that 10 minutes before the hammer came. I missed that a few times -- but when I look at AmeliaLi's posts in isolation, they really are not that scummy. The voting record is terrible -- but if you look at what resulted in the voting record, I think it is actually excusable -- day one, she didn't get a chance to weigh in, and day 2 SSF and YB foolishly quicklynched -- I don't think Rishi or AmeliaLi were nearly as blameworthy for that. The voting record just sucks, but aside from that, AmeliaLi looks like a very uninterested townie. Read her 5 posts -- I will be surprised if you don't get that vibe also.

Most of them are either cautionary, or content-less.


Day two pretty much didn't happen... on to day three.



172 is a striking view into how much Crub's opinions have changed since Day 3 -- he then thought Rishi had a growing case on him -- now I'm the scum?



192 among other things from Crub is scummy -- he earlier said that he didn't see how we

possibly

could not lynch YB, and then voted YB because "maybe some pressure could help". He wanted as little responsibility as possible for the mislynch -- he wanted it to be not his fault.



I think my activity regarding claiming was very town-like. You disagree. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you here -- I think you are wrong in finding it scummy, and have provided you with very adequate reasons for this.


Rishi, it is understandable coming from you -- but I don't see where Crub is getting that I was scummy for the claiming -- in 243, he claimed and then said ssf should go next -- which implies he had no problem with the rishi-crub-ssf-me order. Now in 266 he has problems? That is showing internal logic inconsistency -- he is only having a problem with it because he knew that would appeal to Rishi.



I don't agree with Crub's analysis of AmeliaLi in 266 -- her actions were very much noise, not "defense of HH" as he claims. Cub, by asking for us to slow down, was much more acting in defense. And again, considering SSF & YB's quicklynching prowess, I don't think AmeliaLi can be held accountable for day two.


I don't think his reasoning in the rest of this post is that great either. "Considering though he had 2 other opportunities to quick-hammer YB yesterday I can't see Rishi being scum." is a horrible reason to find someone townlike -- if Rishi quickhammered earlier we'd have been even more suspicious of him today -- scum wouldn't have dreamed of quick hammer in that situation. I see this as Crub buddying up to Rishi.


272 Crub tries to categorize my arguments as WIFOM and appeals to emotion -- he is trying to cast me in a scummy light and hardly is being open minded -- he has no reason to be, he knows that he is scum and that I am the easier target. 280 echoes this.



And here we are -- post 295, the post I just responded to. I believe it to be scummy for the reasons I stated above.

Summary:

Crub has consistently been scummy this game:

He tried to distance from HH, but oddly tried to buy his partner time so he wouldn't get lynched, and in all likelihood accidentally stayed on the wagon accidentally -- he very much wanted it to disappear.

Day 2 almost nothing happened as far as we three are concerned.

Day three Crub was singleminded, and wanted YB lynched with few questions asked, yet wanted little responsibility for the lynch.

Day four Crub uses very weak arguments and arguments that appeal to Rishi's preconceived notions of me being scummy, and eventually votes me as soon as it is clear that I am not seriously considering voting Rishi. A townie would not have voted that quick.


Also, I believe that I have played a solidly pro-town game, and while Amelia-Li's voting record is horrible, if you actually look at her posts, not much is there. Crub himself admitted that, and then later contradicted himself in trying to paint AmerliaLi as scummy.


I think that's it... Again I hope I was clear. I entreat that I not be hammered without at least discussion of this -- I think the case on Crub is very convincing -- and what's more, Crub is actually scum!

I hope staying up until 4AM before my flight was not in vain -- later!

[Crub]

Ok I've tried to address things in a more simplified format because there was a lot for me to go over.

My Voting Record:

How can you say that my near perfect voting record compared to your bad voting record makes me more scummy? In your words AmeliaLi's voting record was scummy. I gave you a valid reason as to why I voted Lateralus and then switched my vote to HH later on, if you choose to disregard it then I fail to see what more I can say in my defense.

Also you say because HH got quick hammered while I was away makes me more scummy? I fail to see your logic. Me being on the HH wagon at all makes no sense if you are looking at me as scum. The town was undecided, and Lateralus was digging himself a deeper hole, when I switched my vote, if I was scum it would make a lot more sense for me to keep pushing Lateralus. AmeliaLi's lurking and semi-defense was a lot more scummy to me.

The bottom line is I had valid reasons, yes you can say this is WIFOM and say that scum would act that way, but my actions at the end of the day were pro-town.

Guardian Lying:

I do not understand why you would come out and say that you thought AmeliaLi was town and then change your mind later to scum other than to leave a point that you could come back to later and say "See I'm not scum" to me it doesn't make sense as a good play for town or scum.

Guardian Claim Order:

You say that everyone should wan't to go last in a claim no matter what. I don't believe this. If you were a vanilla townie it would make more sense for you to want the scum to go first and any actual power-role to go last. Instead the order that you suggested put the two most pro-town players at the start and you at the end. I didn't voice any objection at the time because as I said I was under the impression that you were setting town up for a cop-claim. The fact that you didn't claim cop is really a null-tell now because in the end you didn't claim last.

Guardian Ass-Covering:

There was no reason for you to point out Rishi's hammer on YB, other than to put suspicion on Rishi. We as a town had all agreed, to a time frame for YB to make some sort of defense. Considering the lack of effort YB had put into defending himself up to that point, I had assumed that he was playing scum that had given up, and didn't see any problems with Rishi's hammer. For you to come out and say that you only have one vote and didn't think that YB would be lynched after all the emphasis that you put on the deadline for YB to defend himself is almost beyond belief.

Guardian "I'M TOWN"

I find it ironic for you to defend your constantly repeating "I'M TOWN" by saying I do this when I'm town. You cannot expect anyone to believe that you would play differently as scum. Also as I pointed out referencing completed games as a defense is WIFOM. Of course you know of completed games when you acted this way as town. Of course you are going to act the same way and reference them as a defense.

Pleas to emotion

I made one plea to emotion at the point where I was taking a gamble on either winning or losing the game. I didn't use it as a defense. I didn't use it to push my point of view, I was just honestly on the edge of my seat praying that I had made the right decision. If you feel that my one sentence at a pivotal time is a "is a strong indicator of Crub being scum" then I want to know what your continual use in almost every post today is?

My Vote on Guardian

You say I didn't want to discuss things with you. I had discussed things with you. I made it clear that I couldn't come up with any sort of case against Rishi, when you threaten to vote me unless I can come up with a case what am I supposed to do? From my point of view we had passed the point of trying to make a case against Rishi, I had already tried and failed and you had already tried and failed.

Yes I voted straight after your read through. However this was not the first time you made your views clear that you were going to vote me. You already made it clear that you were going to try and make a case against me, and not Rishi. Then when you actually do you find it strange that I vote you? To me, based on your posts today it was obvious that you were going to concentrate on me. You came out and fos'ed me because I had made a case on you. You made a case on me but pretty much ignored Rishi. It was clear to me that we were already at a point in the game where Rishi was going to have to decide who wins this game.

You say it was the "easy" option I took by voting you. By no way was it an easy option, I

was

worried about Rishi being scum, however I felt the chance that Rishi was scum was minuscule compared to you. At some point someone had to take a chance and vote. I took it and I'm glad that I did because I chose correctly.

My RishiTown Vibe/My Lack of Defense

I cannot believe that you are trying to use that I didn't make a case against Rishi to defend myself as a reason why I am scum. I asked you to do the same thing, and you didn't/couldn't. As I said earlier, both you and me agreed that making a case against Rishi was pretty much impossible compared to the case we made against each other. I never said that I didn't suspect Rishi, I said that compared to you the level of suspicion was minuscule.

[Rishi]

I'm going to do another read-through tonight. If I feel 100% sure after it, then I will cast a vote. I hate to do this while Guardian is on vacation, but I have a feeling whether I cast a vote tonight or two weeks from now, it'll be the same. So why wait?

[Guardian]

I have some limited access at the hotel. Rishi, I have no problem with you voting Crub while I am away on vacation. Feel free.

If you mislynch me while I am on vacation, I will probably want to strangle you. However, if you feel you are making the best decision you could possibly make, go ahead.... I'm not lying when I say this would be the 4th time I've found scum in endgame and lost...

[Rishi]

I have some limited access at the hotel. Rishi, I have no problem with you voting Crub while I am away on vacation. Feel free.

If you mislynch me while I am on vacation, I will probably want to strangle you. However, if you feel you are making the best decision you could possibly make, go ahead.... I'm not lying when I say this would be the 4th time I've found scum in endgame and lost...

Again, appealing to emotion. This does not help you.

[Rishi]

Well, as promised, I did another read-through. A couple of things caught my eye that I had forgotten about:

1) Crub thought I was trying to "buddy up" with him on Day 3. He pointed this out and tried to distance me. If he were scum, I think he would appreciate having a buddy and play into it. But, here's the most important thing: he never brought it up again. He was honestly trying to distance me because he thought I could be scum. If it was simply a tactic to make me think he was town, don't you think he would have made some reference to it later?

2) Guardian is very emotional before someone gets voted for, but then not so much afterwards. He claims to be a very emotional player and says he will be very angry at YogurtBandit if he turns out to be town. But, he never even brought up how angry he was with YogurtBandit later. This leads me to believe it's just a tactic.

3) Guardian makes some contradictions. Here are two big ones: in an early post, Guardian says that saying someone is too townie is bad logic. But then he uses that argument himself later against Crub. The other big one: in post 306, he says that I can vote when I can make an informed decision. In post 312, he threatens me with physical violence if I vote against him. I don't appreciate a bully.

4) On Day 3, Guardian was throwing out suspicion against anyone. Except in one late post (after I noted that somestrangeflea was suspicious), Guardian kept insisting that he was getting a pro-town vibe from somestrangeflea. I'm taking this statement at face value, whether or not Guardian is scum. We've seen a few times how Guardian has trouble looking at things from other people's perspectives and if he really got a pro-town vibe, he seems to be the only one who would kill somestrangeflea.

By the way, Crub, if he were scum, and realized that Guardian was getting a pro-town vibe from somestrangeflea, might have killed somestrangeflea for that reason. Yes, if Crub was scum, he might have lost the Crub-Guardian-somestrangeflea endgame. BUT the Crub-Rishi-somestrangeflea endgame would have been ridiculously easy for Crub. I can't see him not taking that opportunity.

Also, as far as the "Why isn't Crub dead?" argument.... AmeliaLi was obviously fairly disinterested in this game, whether she was Mafia or town. Remember, the first two deaths were her doing. It could be that she was not paying much attention and just killed the two most vocal players in the game (DeliciousGoldfish and Ripley).

And finally, Guardian, here's your nail in the coffin. Both Crub and I repeatedly told you to not post any more appeals to emotion, and you did it anyway. Not only that, but you say that you might want to strangle me. I don't appreciate that. And, if you're taking the game that seriously, maybe you need to step back a little.

*fingers crossed*

Vote: Guardian

[Crub]

Good Game guys

Sorry rishi I feel like such a prick

[Guardian]

*Strangles Rishi*.

I posted to let you know I was here.... Policy lynches (ie lynching me because I appealed to emotion) are bullshit.

damnit, damnit, damnit. Rishi, I hate you. Crub, well done, I guess, but I hate Rishi. Hate.

[Mert]

That's a Wrap, Folks

Guardian

(2):

Crub, Rishi

Crub

(1):

Guardian

Lynch!

[Mert]

After much debate, eventually Rishi is swayed more by Crub's argument than Guardians and decides to string up Guardian for the final lynch.

Guardian, Townie, Lynched Day Four

Rishi, Townie, Killed in Endgame

GAME OVER!

[Mert]

Night Actions

Night One

Somestrangeflea (cop) investigated Lateralus (townie)
Crub (scum) killed DeliciousGoldfish (townie)

Night Two

Somestrangeflea (cop) investigated Ripley (townie)
Crub (scum) killed Ripley (townie)

Night Three

Somestrangeflea (cop) investigated Guardian (townie)
Crub killed Somestrangeflea (cop)

[Crub]

Wow, Flea you knew Lateralus was townie and you lynched him anyway?

[Rishi]

That's really awful play by somestrangeflea. Not only did he not say anything, but he actually voted for Lateralus! I honestly can't believe that someone could play THAT poorly.

Very well played, Crub. Congratulations. Of course, you had enough people digging their own graves to help you out. Out of curiosity, why kill somestrangeflea?

I think this was a badly played game for town all around. I don't think that DeliciousGoldfish or Ripley can be blamed for the loss as they were killed early. I also don't know if Honary Hitchhiker can take credit for the win, but that's another matter.

Anyway, Guardian, when you calm down a bit, I hope that you will realize this is just a game. If you're really 0/4 as town in endgames, maybe you should look at your own play and take this game as a learning experience. The main mistake I think I made was not giving Day 4 enough time. But, I was so convinced that you were scum, another month wouldn't have helped you. Don't blame everyone else for your loss. I know I made mistakes, but you did too. If you don't want to play any more games with me, that's your choice, but I don't have the same bias against you.

[somestrangeflea]

Yeah that sucked. I was planning to remove the vote later, since I really didn't expect a quickhammer from YB.

I partially blame him, especially because he was town. >=(

[Rishi]

Yeah that sucked. I was planning to remove the vote later, since I really didn't expect a quickhammer from YB.

I partially blame him, especially because he was town. >=(

OR you could have said, "I'm the cop. Lateralus is innocent. Don't lynch him." That would have given us two confirmed townies (if we believed you). Town would have won.

[Crub]

From the way day 3 played out I figured if I wanted to win I needed you alive, so my options were down to flea or guardian. I thought about it from a fleascum perspective, if I was him I would want either me or you dead because Guardian was the most pro-flea, so killing guardian just didn't make sense if I wanted to pin it on flea. I also thought that there was enough rishi -> guardian and guardian -> rishi suspicion that potentially I could end up being the deciding vote. A flea-death also made no sense for any of us 3 so I thought it was the best option

And sure HH can take credit for the win If it wasn't for my hasty bus of him on day 1 I would have looked a whole lot more scummier Sorry HH I panicked after the same thing happened in our newbie game and thought you were a goner In retrospect I should have just shut up about the whole L-2 thing.