Mini 474 - Bergamo Bump-Off (Game Over!)

[VampanezeHunter]

Well this

is

my last post! Hooray for su..oh it raining! DAMN! Oh well lets go vandalise some stuff! Anyway I really don't think that Khelv and D_O are scum and they are vanilla townies! Khelv a determined townie to lynch his rival(D_O)(lol) whereas D_O(rival) has finally pulled himself together and made a mistake that looks scummy but not enough for me to vote! Goodbye peolple now DON'T lynch until I get back

*WAVES TO EVERYONE*

[Muerrto]

Well, process of elimination dictates that Vampaneze isn't scum if the three people I really think are scum are. If D_O turns out to be a frameup but Muerrto and Nellie are scum, I would definitely take a good look at Vampaneze.

Well, eventually you'll realise that claiming to have found scum on page 2 is just not gonna happen. That pushing a speed lynch is a a bad scum tell. That suspecting no one except the three people that you're 100% convinced are scum doesn't help the town at all.

It's a learning process.

[death_omen]

Just keep jumping on the wagon Khel, you did it before and your doing it again. With the simply reason of stupidity lol.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

11th Vote Count of Day 1

Khelvaster - 5 (Hjallti, vampyrusddg, Nelly632, Muerrto, death_omen)

Muerrto - 1 (DeathSauce)
death_omen - 2 (somestrangeflea, Khelvaster)

Not Voting:

- 4 (Malchonn, Plessiez, SeraphicMirth, VampaneseHunter)

7 to Lynch

[Plessiez]

Well, if we're ending the day (and it looks as if we are), I'd rather

vote: death_omen

than lynch Khel. (Actually, I'd much rather lynch Vampaneze, but apparently people don't care about the fact he keeps mixing up who he suspects and what he thinks of them or that he contradicts himself from post to post )

I know I promised a reread on DeathSauce, too. That should - hopefully - come later today (would be nice if we didn't lynch anybody before then, too).

[Plessiez]

Finished the reread. As I've said before, I think DeathSauce is a possible partner for death_omen, and should the latter turn up scum I'd like to see some pressure put on him.

Only a few little hints of a partnership right now, but taken together they might mean something:

* I remember pointing this out before, but DeathSauce actually does more to explain death_omen's vote than omen himself ever did (in #57). And the way he does this, saying that he "thought death_omen's reasoning on WLC was shaky at first, but..." seems the sort of way scum might try to help out a partner without being obvious about doing so.

* Before death_omen's ill-justified vote in #96, Sauce was voting for Muerrto. After Khel and myself pointed out how bad this vote was, Sauce unvoted but, slightly oddly, did not vote. The reason I find this a little odd is that Sauce hadn't shown any reluctance to poking people for a reaction by voting for them before this.

* After that post, DeathSauce

does not comment on death_omen

again until #172. And when he does, it's to (subtly) defend him again: he describes omen's reaction to being under pressure as "bizarre, but I've seen it from townies as well as scum".

* And in his next post (#196) DeathSauce again defends omen - giving a few things he finds "troubling" about him, but concluding that "I don't know, I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill.". And in this post he announces that his top suspect is Khel.

* He ... never mentions omen after that, as far as I can see. Which ... I dunno, it's slightly weird.

To reapt: if omen is scum, I think DeathSauce is a good place to look for a partner. He's not really spent much time looking at him or putting him under any pressure, and he seems to have been subtly defending him on a number of occasions. If omen

isn't

scum, I don't think DeathSauce has done all that much suspicious, however, though he's not done much to make me think of him as pro-town either.

Questions for DeathSauce

:

1) Right now, you have your vote on Muerrto because "the accumulation of oddities is just too much". Would you mind listing the oddities that bother you most of all? This isn't really very clear from your posts.

2) If you had to choose between lynching death_omen and Khel today, which would you pick? Why?

3) Sticking with Khel, could you explain the thought process that led you from considering he was "70% pro-town" (in #115) to having him be your top supsect (see #196) just a few days later?

4) You've not really said what you think about Vampaneze since the random phase ended, though it's clear from #201 that - unlike some people, I fear - you've not been ignoring his posts. Could you tell us what your impression of him is at this point?

Question for Khel

:

1) DeathSauce: what do you think about him? Yes, I know he isn't one of the three people you seem to have convinced yourself is scum, but if you weren't quite so obsessed and actually read his posts, how likely would you say it is that he's scum?

2) If we lynch omen today and he comes up town, who would your top three suspects be?

[Muerrto]

Well, if we're ending the day (and it looks as if we are), I'd rather

vote: death_omen

than lynch Khel. (Actually, I'd much rather lynch Vampaneze, but apparently people don't care about the fact he keeps mixing up who he suspects and what he thinks of them or that he contradicts himself from post to post )

I know I promised a reread on DeathSauce, too. That should - hopefully - come later today (would be nice if we didn't lynch anybody before then, too).

Hunter seems to me like a crazy poster. New to the game, not sure of what he's doing, trying to follow a game with a few more experienced players(no offense Hunter). I'm not sure he knows who's scum and who's not. Could it be a ruse and he's scum? Yes. But honestly, this town will accomplish nothing w/DO and Khev both still alive so I'm willing to lynch either one.


Khev for being fanatical in his attacks against his attackers, his obsession that he's found all the scum on day 1, his rush for a speedlynch.

DO for his give up attitude, his obsession with Khev being scum, his unhelpful posts with no defense and only attacks.

Neither are helping the town, both

could

be scum, both probably ARE town. But if we keep fighting back and forth between just those two we'll never get anywhere.

I'm not too concerned about who we lynch today but I'd rather it be Khev since he's kind of foaming at the mouth. I still think both will come up town sadly but I'm not seeing any other alternative.


As for Sauce I'm still watching him. He seems to have it out for me for some reason. But that doesn't mean he's scum.


As for the rest? No real read on the replacements yet since they just got here and their predecessors didn't play. Malch and Vamp have been pretty quiet. Flea pops in sometimes. And Pless, he's either a really good mafia or a really good town. I have no reason to suspect you so I'm assuming town for now. But I can see how you'd make a nasty scum. I'm tempted to check some of your past games but I know metagaming doesn't equal scum. Still, would be interesting reading.

Short story, here's my suspects in order:

1. DO, still. I'm voting Khev so he'll defend himself and drop his silly 'I am a mafia GOD' crap. Could he be town? Yeah. But if he is I'll be surprised.

2. Khev. He's insane in his attachment to his suspiscions. Could HE be town? Likely actually. But if he is then why isn't he playing like a townie?

3. Sauce. No real content. Maybe this is some OMGUS but with no real content and seeming to just have it out for me he bothers me.


Everyone else right now? Not really any reads. Hunter's posts make my head hurt. Hjalti(I hope I spelled that right), Flea, Vamp, Malchonn, Nell, Seraph, not really any reads either way yet. And Pless has to be town at this point. If he's scum we're in trouble because he's hiding it well.

Vote stands on Khel because while I suspect DO more, Khel is hurting the town more. If he starts playing a tad differently that may change. But like I said I'll vote for either.

[Plessiez]

*sigh*

Muerrto, I'm

really

not happy about you voting for somebody you think is town. If you think omen is scummier, why not switch your vote? Either you'll help lynch scum (which is good), or you'll be able to show Khel his theory of an omen-Muerrto-Nelly scum team is wrong (also good, no?). I think that - if town - Khel has the potential to be more useful than omen, really (at least Khel goes after people he thinks are scum, and sometimes has better reasons to think that than "OMG, he voted for me!!").

[somestrangeflea]

Vote stands on Khel because while I suspect DO more, Khel is hurting the town more. If he starts playing a tad differently that may change. But like I said I'll vote for either.

Generally, lynching players rather than roles doesn't work. Vote for who you think is scummiest, it generally works better.

[Muerrto]

*sigh*

Muerrto, I'm

really

not happy about you voting for somebody you think is town. If you think omen is scummier, why not switch your vote? Either you'll help lynch scum (which is good), or you'll be able to show Khel his theory of an omen-Muerrto-Nelly scum team is wrong (also good, no?). I think that - if town - Khel has the potential to be more useful than omen, really (at least Khel goes after people he thinks are scum, and sometimes has better reasons to think that than "OMG, he voted for me!!").

Agreed. I guess I just have problems with his methods and I think we're getting so bogged down discussing them that we're not making any headway. Honestly, we're at like 12 pages of nothing right now. But whatever, I'll listen to reason.

Unvote

I'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless, I'm slightly sure BOTH are town but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now. And missing a lynch is always bad so I'm voting for the 2 I'm most suspiscious of right at this moment.

[DeathSauce]

Answers in

GREEN

Questions for DeathSauce:

1) Right now, you have your vote on Muerrto because "the accumulation of oddities is just too much". Would you mind listing the oddities that bother you most of all? This isn't really very clear from your posts.

For the most part, it is is his seeming to coach death_omen. I really think Khelvaster found something interesting there.

2) If you had to choose between lynching death_omen and Khel today, which would you pick? Why?

Omen. In a heartbeat. I had already considered switching my vote to omen today. My reasoning is: In case I am wrong about omen/Muerrto, Muerrto seems to be an able player and is a valuable asset to the town. If omen is lynched and comes up scum, then we can argue some more about the apparent coaching, but I would be in favor of a Muerrto lynch. If death-omen comes up town, then I was wrong and we retain a strong town asset.

3) Sticking with Khel, could you explain the thought process that led you from considering he was "70% pro-town" (in #115) to having him be your top supsect (see #196) just a few days later?

Actually, I won't explain that. Sorry.

4) You've not really said what you think about Vampaneze since the random phase ended, though it's clear from #201 that - unlike some people, I fear - you've not been ignoring his posts. Could you tell us what your impression of him is at this point?

Who can tell? It is pretty rare to see a player jump around at random like that and not seem to care about it! It's a confusing tactic, to say the least, which is probably why people are ignoring him, he hurts their brains.

unvote, vote: death_omen

[DeathSauce]

[quote=Muerrto]
'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless, I'm slightly sure BOTH are town but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now.
[/quote]

Whoa, so you are prepared to hammer either Khel or Omen?

[somestrangeflea]

I'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless,

I'm slightly sure BOTH are town

but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now. And missing a lynch is always bad so I'm voting for the 2

I'm most suspiscious of right at this moment.

Ehwut?

[Plessiez]

Questions for DeathSauce:

3) Sticking with Khel, could you explain the thought process that led you from considering he was "70% pro-town" (in #115) to having him be your top supsect (see #196) just a few days later?

Actually, I won't explain that. Sorry.

That was the wrong answer.

unvote, vote: DeathSauce

Try again?

[Muerrto]

'll vote for either one. Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless, I'm slightly sure BOTH are town but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now.

Whoa, so you are prepared to hammer either Khel or Omen?

I'll vote for either one.
Period. So I'll go with the whim of the town. If it helps Pless,

I'm slightly sure BOTH are town

but I've no other real suspiscions yet besides Sauce and that feels too OMGUS right now. And missing a lynch is always bad so I'm voting for the 2

I'm most suspiscious of right at this moment.

Ehwut?

Day 1 has to end at some point. Do I want a speed lynch? No. Do I see us making any headway whatsoever? No. Do I like either DO's or Khel's contribution to the game so far? No.

DO has given up and insists without a doubt in his mind that Khel is scum. Why? Because Khel is attacking you? You mean townies can't attack townies? That's crazy.

Khel is fanatical in his find of ALL 3 scum on day 1 and he apparently found TWO on page 2 of day 1. That's also crazy. And why? Because I 'coached' or 'gave advice'? You mean like the tons I gave to Khel too? Heck I've given advice to just about everyone I've ever played with at least somewhat. If I see someone making a bad play I let them know. Pless has given advice several times as well. Is he coaching DO too?

THIS is why I slightly suspect Sauce. You seem to take things I'm doing, that others are ALSO doing, and try to nail me for them. You whole basis for me being scum was that I was coaching DO. Yet you voted for ME instead of DO. How does that make sense?

And Flea, if you're saying you're 100% convinced DO is scum and that's why you're voting him then you're in the same boat as Khel. If you're NOT 100% convinced DO is scum then you're in the same boat as me. How is me saying I'm thinking they're both town any different from doubting if they're scum or not?


So yes, I

think

they could both be town. I'm

hoping

they're not. But with their non-stop back and forth we won't find the real scum if they're not going to stop. I'm

hoping

that if one dies the other will slow down.

What's really funny is the Khel is 100% convinced DO is scum and I'm his partner. DO is 100% that Khel is scum and I'm his partner. I feel so loved and yet the fact that they BOTH can't see how crazy that is disturbs me. I see this game going nowhere unless this is resolved.

If Khel dies as town maybe we can move on. If Khel dies as scum I know I'm gonna be under heavy fire. That's a risk I'll have to take.

If DO dies as town maybe we can move on. If DO dies as scum I know I'm gonna be under heavy fire. That's a risk I'll have to take.

Wow. Those look slightly similar


In short, I'm never 100% convinced someone is scum unless we have a confirmed cop investigation. Those two could ALWAYS be just 2 townies being a tad too overzealous fighting back and forth. If neither of you see that possibility, re-evaluate your suspiscions.

[DeathSauce]

That was the wrong answer.

unvote, vote: DeathSauce

Try again?

Nope. I don't remember agreeing to answer every question asked of me in this game, and I'm pretty sure it's nowhere in the rules that I have to. You are free to find that as suspicious as you please.

[somestrangeflea]

And Flea, if you're saying you're 100% convinced DO is scum and that's why you're voting him then you're in the same boat as Khel. If you're NOT 100% convinced DO is scum then you're in the same boat as me. How is me saying I'm thinking they're both town any different from doubting if they're scum or not?

It was the use of the word "sure" in the original post that threw me.

[Plessiez]

I don't remember agreeing to answer every question asked of me in this game, and I'm pretty sure it's nowhere in the rules that I have to.

Oh, come on . I'm asking you to explain why you (relatively) quickly switched your suspicions of somebody. This isn't an at all unreasonable question to ask, in my view.

And yet, you aren't doing so. This is, certainly, suspicious. I cannot see why a pro-town player - with honest, pro-town reasons for changing suspects - would refuse to answer such a simple question.

My vote stays on until you talk ... at

least

until you talk.

[Muerrto]

And Flea, if you're saying you're 100% convinced DO is scum and that's why you're voting him then you're in the same boat as Khel. If you're NOT 100% convinced DO is scum then you're in the same boat as me. How is me saying I'm thinking they're both town any different from doubting if they're scum or not?

It was the use of the word "sure" in the original post that threw me.

Shrug. I spose bad choice of words. But I'd say I'm about 70% sure Khel is town and about...30-40%? sure DO is town. So I'd definitely say I'm less sure of DO because of his early RC, his giving up, his non-stop attack on Khel.

Khel on the other hand has just been way too sure of his scum findings. He's over confident and unwilling to see any other angle. He's also pointing out multiple people, not just DO. He seems more a townie way too sure of himself to me. But the problem is until he stops that he's not helping. My vote for him(as I stated) was more to get him to stop it. It didn't work.

[DeathSauce]

Plessiez, I will make my answer as vague as possible while still trying to answer your question.

I was interested in observing the reaction of a particular player to my apparent change of heart.

More than that you will not get.

[Muerrto]

THIS is why I slightly suspect Sauce. You seem to take things I'm doing, that others are ALSO doing, and try to nail me for them. You whole basis for me being scum was that I was coaching DO. Yet you voted for ME instead of DO. How does that make sense?

I still want an explanation for this Sauce if you could.

[DeathSauce]

No problem. My initial thought was to lynch the more experienced of the scum, that is why I voted for you. In considering the possibility that I am wrong, I decided to vote the less experienced player, in hopes that if I am wrong it is less of a detriment to the town.

Your post above about how you will be viewed as suspicious no matter who is lynched puzzles me a tad. Can you explain why you would be suspect if Khel is lynched?

[Khelvaster]

Plezzie:

The biggest problem I have with DeathSauce is the way he kept throwing around soft scumtells in the early game. When I say "soft scumtells," I mean things that look a little scummy, but aren't anything bad (aka, no bad claims, no blatant hypocrisy or OMGUS, no bad logic.) The sheer number of them, however, is a point of interest.

In the order of posting:

He jokes about being scum (let's all BW Vamp)
He votes Muerrto, then says he was baiting (This game was getting slow, so I decided to poke you to see what reaction I got.)
He starts throwing around percentages of how sure he is different guys are scum
He contradicts himself in a post, but referring to a principle, not defending himself
He votes Muerrto without much explanation



HOWEVER, I believe DeathSauce is more of a careless townie than a scum. As I said, all of these things are "soft" scumtells--DeathSauce doesn't seem to have any hidden agenda. He isn't going far out of his way to defend anyone, but neither is he going far out of his way to attack anyone. If he is scum, he is a damn good one. He is pro-town, but made just enough scumslips for me not to think that he is going out of his way to act pro-town. I get a very nice read from him overall.

[Malchonn]

Sorry Guys, end of the week is always tough for me to keep on top of things.

I have a couple questions for Khelv, before I think about voting.

You have strayed back and forth with your top suspects, a while back you were so sure Death_Omen was scum, recently you voted/revoted D_O. Though in #260 you say you're "thouroughly convinced" Muerrto is scum.

death_omen wrote:

Refusing to fight a vote or not defending youself is very bad.

coming from D_O is wrong...Seriously. There is no way I can justify not lynching him today, not even if Nellie or Muerrto claimed scum.

Are you thouroughly convinced that D_O

and

Muerrto are sum? If not which is "more" scum? I guess I was kind of looking for a defense after D_O called you out on it, except you went on the attack, reasons?

---

DeathSauce wrote:
I don't remember agreeing to answer every question asked of me in this game, and I'm pretty sure it's nowhere in the rules that I have to.

Oh, come on . I'm asking you to explain why you (relatively) quickly switched your suspicions of somebody. This isn't an at all unreasonable question to ask, in my view.

I as well don't think its unreasonable to answer a question giving to you. Not sure how you want us to take this...

[Khelvaster]

Sorry Guys, end of the week is always tough for me to keep on top of things.

I have a couple questions for Khelv, before I think about voting.

You have strayed back and forth with your top suspects, a while back you were so sure Death_Omen was scum, recently you voted/revoted D_O. Though in #260 you say you're "thouroughly convinced" Muerrto is scum.

death_omen wrote:

Refusing to fight a vote or not defending youself is very bad.

coming from D_O is wrong...Seriously. There is no way I can justify not lynching him today, not even if Nellie or Muerrto claimed scum.

Are you thouroughly convinced that D_O

and

Muerrto are sum? If not which is "more" scum? I guess I was kind of looking for a defense after D_O called you out on it, except you went on the attack, reasons?

Well, I am convinced that both Muerrto and D_O are scum. I kept flip-flopping because, at first, it seemed Muerrto was feeding D_O a line. That was a pretty bad excuse for a vote, but it was page 2, and I wasn't intent on lynching Muerrto at that point. Then D_O came out with his scum accusation towards Muerrto because Muerrto was defending himself too well. This is totally unaccetable , so I voted D_O.

A long while later, Muerrto came out feeding D_O almost an entire defence. D_O didn't even acknowledge this, which I find a little wierd. Had I been in D_O's situation (if he is actually a townie,) the correct play would have been to attack Muerrto for trying to frame me up, not to ignore him. Anyway, Murrto got my suspicion again for doing this, and at that point, I thought D_O maybe was being framed up.

However, D_O then makes this attack on me, using this as his justification for voting:

Refusing to fight a vote or not defending youself is very bad.

Yeah...This was D_O's newest "defense" against me. Let's not forget now, he has never made a post which had a main purpose of defending himself from me. He always attacked, never defending himself. With this latest post, he condemned himself. He's done this the whole game--if we believe him, we would lynch him first for refusing to fight the vote.